China in 2012 [Archive] - Motorsport Forums

nigelred5

29th August 2011, 18:36

China owns us. My question is, are they coing to re-badge the Chevy's as Buicks for the Chinese Race?

Michigan and Phoenix, sign me up, but it's hard to find a date that doesn't conflict with NASCAR in Phoenix, so no one will show.
I totally dislike watching any series on Chicagoland.
Richmond was a ghost land and not going to happen if Baltimore is successful.
How many years are they going to race in front of empty grandstands in Homestead? They can't even fill the place for the season NASCAR finale. Maybe they would do better in the spring, but that conflicts with St Pete.

anthonyvop

29th August 2011, 19:16

When you have 2 fantastic ovalsmis lauzits and rockingham why go to china?

Because China actually wants to pay IndyCar. Lauritz and Rockingham don't

People in China don't give a rats*** about Indycar. The people in NA do, so I say give us another race.

People in N/A do? Who are these people and how come they aren't attending the races and watching it on TV?

China is a HUGE MARKET with a growing economy. To me it is a no-brainer.

anthonyvop

29th August 2011, 19:19

How many years are they going to race in front of empty grandstands in Homestead? They can't even fill the place for the season NASCAR finale. Maybe they would do better in the spring, but that conflicts with St Pete.

Homestead isn't on the schedule

Pat Wiatrowski

29th August 2011, 19:32

People in China don't give a rats*** about Indycar. The people in NA do, so I say give us another race.

We do?

Anubis

29th August 2011, 20:03

When you have 2 fantastic ovalsmis lauzits and rockingham why go to china?

With regards Rockingham, it may well be a fantastic venue, but nobody in the UK cares about oval racing at anything other than Brisca short track level, so you'd get about three people turning up. We have ILMC rounds here with one man and his dog in attendance, and that's from a country with a huge sportscar and endurance racing heritage. There just isn't the market for an oval race here. Now, get 'em round Brands GP or Donington with a decent support package and I think you'd have a viable event.

00steven

29th August 2011, 22:44

We do?

Well some...

nigelred5

29th August 2011, 23:42

Homestead isn't on the schedule

Exactly. No one wants to drive out to Homestead to see anyone race and it s never going to get more than a couple thousand spectators going up against NASCAR.? How many times will they go back to a track that has proven no one cares to watch.

SarahFan

30th August 2011, 03:33

I call BS Anthony..... Besides a Sanctioning fee china does nothing to grow the series or enhance the current schedule

anthonyvop

30th August 2011, 03:34

Exactly. No one wants to drive out to Homestead to see anyone race and it s never going to get more than a couple thousand spectators going up against NASCAR.? How many times will they go back to a track that has proven no one cares to watch.

The race has sold out the last 4 years in a row.

But attendance isn't that big of an issue. NASCAR finishes the season in Homestead for 2 reasons.

#1 The weather, In Mid-November South Florida has the best and most predictable weather in the Nation.

#2 and Most Important....The Sponsors Love it. The Major players from the board rooms love coming to Miami in November to check on their investments. Of course writing it off as a business expense while escaping the crappy weather up north helps but The Homestead race has become a de facto trade fair with major negotiations and deals going down.
More Private Jets are flown in and more Helicopters flight plans to the track are filed for Homestead than any other race on the NASCAR schedule.

IndyCar's failure at Homestead was not a surprise at fairly predictable.

anthonyvop

30th August 2011, 03:43

I call BS Anthony..... Besides a Sanctioning fee china does nothing to grow the series or enhance the current schedule

IndyCar is a business and one of it's sources of income is from sanctioning fees and the other is sponsorship. So If China is writing a check and IZOD wants to sell a crap load of shirts to the Chinese then IndyCar is doing what it exists to do. I am sure that many other sponsors would love to get some Chinese exposure.
I wonder why you think it doesn't help the series to grow or enhance the schedule. How can a new race in one of the largest and fastest growing markets on the planet not be growth and enhancement? How many more sponsors will now look at IndyCar because of this new Market?

I know it isn't in a Corn Field in the middle of Iowa but having a race in a city of 8.7 MILLION people is hardly a negative.

SarahFan

30th August 2011, 03:47

If Indy had a solid base in the us I'd agree.... But it's current biz is failing... That's a fact, china won't help

chuck34

30th August 2011, 12:33

I know it isn't in a Corn Field in the middle of Iowa but having a race in a city of 8.7 MILLION people is hardly a negative.

How many will actually watch it? I'd say about 8.7.

And while you may make a good business case for the series to go there (assuming the Chineese promotors actually pay, and that IZOD wants in their market). How is this good for the teams, and in particular the people working on the teams? Are the promotors going to pay to fly everyone out there? Are the promotors going to pay for the hotel rooms? Are the promotors going to pay the per-diems? Are the promotors going to pay for the international calling back to families? Are the promotors going to line up sponsors to add cars next year? What business case can you make for adding Chineese sponsors to the series? What business case can you make for adding US sponsors based on one race in China that may be watched by a couple of people?

Just because there are 8.7 million potential viewers doesn't really mean too much. There are 350 million potential viewers right here in the US. How many of them care about IndyCar? And do you expect that number to be more, the same, or less in China?

anthonyvop

30th August 2011, 14:07

How many will actually watch it? I'd say about 8.7.

And while you may make a good business case for the series to go there (assuming the Chineese promotors actually pay, and that IZOD wants in their market). How is this good for the teams, and in particular the people working on the teams? Are the promotors going to pay to fly everyone out there? Are the promotors going to pay for the hotel rooms? Are the promotors going to pay the per-diems? Are the promotors going to pay for the international calling back to families? Are the promotors going to line up sponsors to add cars next year? What business case can you make for adding Chineese sponsors to the series? What business case can you make for adding US sponsors based on one race in China that may be watched by a couple of people?

Just because there are 8.7 million potential viewers doesn't really mean too much. There are 350 million potential viewers right here in the US. How many of them care about IndyCar? And do you expect that number to be more, the same, or less in China?

First off the 8.7 Million is just in the city of Qingdao. China has a population of over A BILLION. That is ONE BILLION potential new Fans. ONE BILLION eyes for potential sponsors to Market to.

What makes you think that the race in China would only be watched by a few People? Qingdao has become a major sports town and recently the Volvo Ocean Race stopover drew over 1 MILLION spectators. That is 1 Million People for racing yachts tied up at the dock and a race village. If you think only a few Chinese would watch an IndyCar race says more about what you think about the product than the market.

Your argument that it will cost teams can be used with any race. They seemed to manage with the Japan race(Which it looks like China is replacing). Many here clamor for a return to Australia which is even further than China. What about Brazil?

SarahFan

30th August 2011, 14:45

A billion potential fans ..... Why not just move the entire series to china and just fly them home in May

chuck34

30th August 2011, 15:33

First off the 8.7 Million is just in the city of Qingdao. China has a population of over A BILLION. That is ONE BILLION potential new Fans. ONE BILLION eyes for potential sponsors to Market to.

Of course China has over 1 billion people. How many of them currently watch IndyCar? Why do you expect that number to change just because there is a race there. Not to mention that a big chunk of those 1billion don't have TV's or access to travel to the track.

What makes you think that the race in China would only be watched by a few People? Qingdao has become a major sports town and recently the Volvo Ocean Race stopover drew over 1 MILLION spectators. That is 1 Million People for racing yachts tied up at the dock and a race village. If you think only a few Chinese would watch an IndyCar race says more about what you think about the product than the market.

What does a yacht race have to do with IndyCar? Maybe the Chineese are boat people, I don't know. Are there a million people at the F1 race? I'd bet not, and whatever that number is the IndyCars will get significantly less people. Yeah it does say something about the product. It's non-existent in China and just barely more so here. So why are we going over there again?

Your argument that it will cost teams can be used with any race. They seemed to manage with the Japan race(Which it looks like China is replacing). Many here clamor for a return to Australia which is even further than China. What about Brazil?

Japan is a money looser. And so was Australia. Just because fans want it back doesn't mean the teams do. If Aus made money it'd be on the schedule, your a free market guy you should know that. Japan is only there because Honda picks up a huge chunk of the costs. Honda doesn't pick that up anymore, and look what happens to the race. Same for Brazil.

chuck34

30th August 2011, 15:34

A billion potential fans ..... Why not just move the entire series to china and just fly them home in May

Exaclty. Why don't we concentrate on growing the 350million potential fans we have right here at home.

anthonyvop

30th August 2011, 20:45

Of course China has over 1 billion people. How many of them currently watch IndyCar? Why do you expect that number to change just because there is a race there. Not to mention that a big chunk of those 1billion don't have TV's or access to travel to the track.

Seriously?

You need to look up the jump in popularity F1 experienced in China after they started racing there. Better yet investigate what happened to the NBA in China after a few exhibition Games awhile back.

What does a yacht race have to do with IndyCar? Maybe the Chineese are boat people, I don't know. Are there a million people at the F1 race? I'd bet not, and whatever that number is the IndyCars will get significantly less people. Yeah it does say something about the product. It's non-existent in China and just barely more so here. So why are we going over there again?
Yacht Racing a sport with no history or following in China suddenly became on of the most attended sporting events on the planet. You don't think IndyCar racing would create any interest? Then why are you following the sport?

Japan is a money looser. And so was Australia. Just because fans want it back doesn't mean the teams do. If Aus made money it'd be on the schedule, your a free market guy you should know that. Japan is only there because Honda picks up a huge chunk of the costs. Honda doesn't pick that up anymore, and look what happens to the race. Same for Brazil.

Name me one IndyCar event that would turn a profit if it wasn't for sponsorship money and had to survive on Ticket Sales alone. Not even the Indy 500 does that.

As for Australia. The event is still there and is quite successful with the V8 Supercar series. They just decided that having IndyCar there isn't worth the cost.

IndyCar has people who are willing to pay money to hold one of their events.....What is the problem?

A billion potential fans ..... Why not just move the entire series to china and just fly them home in May

If that was their plan and I believed it would be profitable I would be behind that idea 100%

SarahFan

30th August 2011, 21:11

Well there you have it.....clearly no reason to continue the discussion

chuck34

30th August 2011, 21:35

Seriously?

You need to look up the jump in popularity F1 experienced in China after they started racing there. Better yet investigate what happened to the NBA in China after a few exhibition Games awhile back.

I hope you are right, that IndyCar will see a jump in popularity in China. I just don't see it happening. F1 and the NBA are both very solid in their "home" markets. That's usally the first goal before expansion. IndyCar has not solidified their base.

Yacht Racing a sport with no history or following in China suddenly became on of the most attended sporting events on the planet. You don't think IndyCar racing would create any interest? Then why are you following the sport?

I know nothing about Yacht racing, frankly I don't care. I hope IndyCar creates interest there like Yachts. I just don't really see how putting blind faith in it is the right thing to do. Hey, there's a billion people over there, let's go spend a bunch of money to see if anyone has an interest. That doesn't sound like a good business plan to me. Perhaps they should put it on TV first, see if anyone actually watches, then decide if there's a case to be made to spend a ton of money to ship everyone over there.

Name me one IndyCar event that would turn a profit if it wasn't for sponsorship money and had to survive on Ticket Sales alone. Not even the Indy 500 does that.

Yes, but then most don't require the vast sums of travel money that China does.

As for Australia. The event is still there and is quite successful with the V8 Supercar series. They just decided that having IndyCar there isn't worth the cost.

Yep V8 Supercars, an AUSTRALIAN series, is very successful at an AUSTRALIAN event. Go figure.

IndyCar has people who are willing to pay money to hold one of their events.....What is the problem?

I don't have a problem with it as long as it doesn't hurt the teams financially to go over there. So far I have seen nothing that says the teams won't be out a bunch of money on this experiment.

If that was their plan and I believed it would be profitable I would be behind that idea 100%

Call me crazy, but I kind of like having a US series. But that's just me.

FIAT1

30th August 2011, 21:50

China?

anthonyvop

31st August 2011, 01:03

I hope you are right, that IndyCar will see a jump in popularity in China. I just don't see it happening. F1 and the NBA are both very solid in their "home" markets. That's usally the first goal before expansion. IndyCar has not solidified their base.

I know nothing about Yacht racing, frankly I don't care. I hope IndyCar creates interest there like Yachts. I just don't really see how putting blind faith in it is the right thing to do. Hey, there's a billion people over there, let's go spend a bunch of money to see if anyone has an interest. That doesn't sound like a good business plan to me. Perhaps they should put it on TV first, see if anyone actually watches, then decide if there's a case to be made to spend a ton of money to ship everyone over there.

Yes, but then most don't require the vast sums of travel money that China does.

Yep V8 Supercars, an AUSTRALIAN series, is very successful at an AUSTRALIAN event. Go figure.

I don't have a problem with it as long as it doesn't hurt the teams financially to go over there. So far I have seen nothing that says the teams won't be out a bunch of money on this experiment.

Call me crazy, but I kind of like having a US series. But that's just me.

I do not no what will be involved in the promoter agreement for a China IndyCar race but in most cases the promoter either pays the traveling costs or subsidizes the costs to make it economically viable for the teams to attend the "Fly-Away" events.

So the only negative you have is not a negative at all.

SarahFan

31st August 2011, 01:54

Time and energy wasted ..... This is bad.... And the fact Anthony doesn't think so only confirms it

anthonyvop

1st September 2011, 05:26

Is Brazil Time and energy wasted?

SarahFan

1st September 2011, 05:41

Is the Indycar better off today than it was 18 months ago?

Has the needle moved at all since Indycar raced there?

How many of those energy brazil commercials have we seen this year?

anthonyvop

1st September 2011, 21:14

Is the Indycar better off today than it was 18 months ago?

Has the needle moved at all since Indycar raced there?

How many of those energy brazil commercials have we seen this year?

Is IndyCar better off After Barber was added to the schedule? How about Iowa? New Hampshire?

Using your criteria than the ICS Should drop the Indy 500. Since its inception the IRL/ICS has been on either a decline or remained stagnant. Since its inception they have also raced at the Indianapolis Motor Speedway to declining attendance and TV ratings.

At least China has potential.

SarahFan

1st September 2011, 21:30

Your silly

chuck34

1st September 2011, 21:31

At least China has potential.

So does Barber, Iowa, New Hampshire, and yes the Indy 500. How about spending some money to promote those races? Instead we're gonna waste a bunch of time, energy, and money boxing everything up, putting it on a plane, unboxing it, running it, reboxing it up, flying it back home, unpacking it again, loading a bunch of guys up on another set of planes, flying them over to a foreign country, paying for hotels, phones, meals etc. All for what? I know, I know, a billion potential fans.

I still don't see how this is worth the hastle? How's it helping the series here at home? What benifit is there? How does this grow anything? How does this add sponsors? How does this add TV viewers? All I see is time and energy to go on yet another foreign adventure. And so far I haven't seen a compelling argument that says otherwise.

Wilf

2nd September 2011, 02:09

Is IndyCar better off After Barber was added to the schedule? How about Iowa? New Hampshire?

Using your criteria than the ICS Should drop the Indy 500. Since its inception the IRL/ICS has been on either a decline or remained stagnant. Since its inception they have also raced at the Indianapolis Motor Speedway to declining attendance and TV ratings.

At least China has potential.

Anthony I don't find myself on your side often, but the China race, if this is handled correctly, could add millions to IndyCar's coffers. It isn't about one race, it could be used to develop a Chinese TV following for the Indianapolis 500 and hopefully for the full season. This would introduce additional team sponsors who could justify their participation in the series based on Chinese TV. The Western Hemisphere teams will have to be handsomely rewarded for the event because their US and Brazilian sponsors are not going to get much out of it.

Yes, there is potential.

NickFalzone

2nd September 2011, 03:04

One possibility here is that the IRL believes it has "maxed out" its potential audience in North America, and branching out to other countries is the swiftest approach to increasing its fanbase. I will agree that IndyCar in 2011 lacks in certain ways, but compared to 15-20 years ago, the on-screen product is still relatively exciting, good drivers, etc.. and yet, no one is watching. New cars, new engines, will that get hundreds of thousands more in North America tuning in? I am doubtful. Going across the globe to find more fans might not be as ridiculous as one would think.

SarahFan

2nd September 2011, 13:56

Milwaukee will not be on the 2012 schedule.....

*I figure this thread is as good a place as any to discuss this

anthonyvop

2nd September 2011, 16:02

So does Barber, Iowa, New Hampshire, and yes the Indy 500.

And yet they have failed to deliver after all these years. Maybe Albert Einstein was thinking of IndyCar when he defined Insanity as "doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

How about spending some money to promote those races?

They do. Maybe not to your satisfaction but then again that cost money. They don't have an unlimited marketing budget either.

Instead we're gonna waste a bunch of time, energy, and money boxing everything up, putting it on a plane, unboxing it, running it, reboxing it up, flying it back home, unpacking it again, loading a bunch of guys up on another set of planes, flying them over to a foreign country, paying for hotels, phones, meals etc. All for what? I know, I know, a billion potential fans.

As I stated before most of the transport will be paid and/or subsidized by the promoter. Hotel, Food..etc is an expense for the teams wherever they race.

I still don't see how this is worth the hastle? How's it helping the series here at home?

Home? What is home? The US? North America? The Western Hemisphere? Like it or not we live in a global marketplace. Those who ignore it are doomed to failure.

What benifit is there? How does this grow anything? How does this add sponsors?

How? You don't see the potential? GM sells Billions of $$$ worth of cars in China because they saw the potential...McDonalds, KFC, Boeing, GE.....etc The list is long.
Now IndyCar teams can go to potential sponsors and add the Chinese market to their proposals. I Talked to one ICS driver sponsor this morning who is seriously looking at upping their commitment just because of China.

How does this add TV viewers? All I see is time and energy to go on yet another foreign adventure. And so far I haven't seen a compelling argument that says otherwise.

I haven't seen one logical argument against it?

SarahFan

2nd September 2011, 16:24

Imm hanging my tune.... Anthony is right

This series can't even figure out how to get 10k at Milwaukee..... We can't get to china soon enough

On a side note my buddy and I who have spent 10s of thousands traveling to races from Montreal to Monterrey to Laguna SECa have decided to spend our racing budget in 2012'going to see the bikes

chuck34

2nd September 2011, 17:32

And yet they have failed to deliver after all these years. Maybe Albert Einstein was thinking of IndyCar when he defined Insanity as "doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

And China's gonna deliver? Doing the same thing over again, strange, I seem to recall another, now defunct, series planning on a Chineese adventure too. Hmmm.

They do. Maybe not to your satisfaction but then again that cost money. They don't have an unlimited marketing budget either.

So you're argument is, we can't promote a race here, but boy howdy China will be different? I'm missing something here.

As I stated before most of the transport will be paid and/or subsidized by the promoter. Hotel, Food..etc is an expense for the teams wherever they race.

Paid for and/or subsidized? Two very differnt things, which is it. Also what about the "wear and tear" on the guys? Are the teams going to be compensated for that?

Home? What is home? The US? North America? The Western Hemisphere? Like it or not we live in a global marketplace. Those who ignore it are doomed to failure.

Home would be the US and maybe North America. We sure do live in a global marketplace, but how does that translate into some sort of need to go to China? "Those who ignore it are doomed to failure" Are you a past CEO of CART/ChampCar? That sure sounds like something they said, look where that got them.

How? You don't see the potential? GM sells Billions of $$$ worth of cars in China because they saw the potential...McDonalds, KFC, Boeing, GE.....etc The list is long.
Now IndyCar teams can go to potential sponsors and add the Chinese market to their proposals. I Talked to one ICS driver sponsor this morning who is seriously looking at upping their commitment just because of China.

There is demand for GM cars, Big Mac's, Chicken, planes, electricity etc. Is there demand for IndyCar there?

What sponsor Ho-Pin Tung's?

I haven't seen one logical argument against it?

Time, expense, lack of any proof of market (potential just doesn't cut it), diverting resources from building a domestic market, TV time slot, the list goes on.

Show me the proof that there is demand for IndyCar in China (TV exposure, Facebook fan pages, internet sites, something like that), and maybe I'll start taking you seriously. One "conversation" you claim to have had won't cut it. The fact that there are a Billion people in China doesn't cut it. Hell there's 6 Billion other people on the planet, should we go to every other country as well?

SoCalPVguy

2nd September 2011, 17:57

anthonyvop

2nd September 2011, 18:41

Show me the proof that there is demand for IndyCar in China (TV exposure, Facebook fan pages, internet sites, something like that), and maybe I'll start taking you seriously. One "conversation" you claim to have had won't cut it. The fact that there are a Billion people in China doesn't cut it. Hell there's 6 Billion other people on the planet, should we go to every other country as well?

The FACT that a promoter is willing to pay big $$$ to bring the ICS over and hold an event isn't enough proof?

Tell you what...name me one event since the inception of the IRL/ICS that has shown significant success and GROWTH. I can name 2. Sao Paulo, Texas and Iowa. Texas and Iowa are a reach as both while successful haven't shown significant growth and Sao Paulo just showed growth in its 2nd year because the 1st year was a victim of heavy rains.

So go ahead and name me some.

And one more thing. Do you have anything to back up the idea that an ICS race in China would be a failure?

SarahFan

2nd September 2011, 19:02

just to keep facts straight anthony.... texas used to have 2 races that drew around 80-90k.... now it has one that draws roughly 1/2 that

chuck34

2nd September 2011, 19:48

The FACT that a promoter is willing to pay big $$$ to bring the ICS over and hold an event isn't enough proof?

Tell you what...name me one event since the inception of the IRL/ICS that has shown significant success and GROWTH. I can name 2. Sao Paulo, Texas and Iowa. Texas and Iowa are a reach as both while successful haven't shown significant growth and Sao Paulo just showed growth in its 2nd year because the 1st year was a victim of heavy rains.

So go ahead and name me some.

And one more thing. Do you have anything to back up the idea that an ICS race in China would be a failure?

You're right. We're having such great growth here in the US, you know the base of oporations for every team and the series itself, that we should go ahead and go globe trotting because this market is saturated. :rolleyes:

I've seen this movie before, didn't end well the first time.

anthonyvop

2nd September 2011, 22:03

just to keep facts straight anthony.... texas used to have 2 races that drew around 80-90k.... now it has one that draws roughly 1/2 that

Your right. Just trying to not seem so Negative!!!!

anthonyvop

2nd September 2011, 22:35

Lets just say for a minute that the China race is hugely successful, every Chinese that is not in political prison or does not have a TV watches, several Chinese sponsors participate for the weekend with full race sponsorships... How does this benefit Indycar racing in America ? With the time difference no one in N. America watches, no one in N. America even has access to the Chinese products they see at the track, all the Chinese that watched that day cannot watch the next race on TV, what ever so called profits are made are eaten up by the gigantic travel logistics expenses... I am not opposed to this but I cannot see how Indycar can grow from this move.

That is a pretty narrow supposition you are using there.

How about the race is a success and companies(not just Chinese) that are either in the Chinese market or desire to be are drawn in as team and series sponsors.

Example #1. GM is entering IndyCar next year as a engine supplier. GM is one of the top selling brands in what is becoming a very crowed and tough market in China. I wouldn't be surprised if GM and or Roger Penske has a hand in this deal.

Example #2. Verizon has entered into a partnership in China with China telecom worth a half a billion dollars.

Example #3. DHL, Honda, Lincoln Electric, GE, Kodak, Bosh..just some of the dozens of Sponsors in the IndyCar series that do business in China

Example #4. The Down Jones Industrials (http://www.dowjones.com/) & the Fortune 500 (http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune500/2011/index.html). Be hard to find a company there who doesn't already do business in China or covet it, Every one is a potential sponsor.

downtowndeco

2nd September 2011, 22:46

The world of motor sports is constantly changing, whether it be NASCAR, F1, NHRA or Indycar. There are empty grandstands in all four major series. We are going through the worst economic downturn since the great depression. Yet, Indycar is starting 26 to 28 cars per race with the main bitch between between nearly every race is whether there was too much or too little passing. There is a new car (finally) coming next year. They have a series sponsor. A long term TV contract. Almost every car is sponsored & as far as I can tell the series is not subsidizing anyone.

A f'n new flash. Indycar is not going away. It is not going out of business. It was here yesterday and will be here tomorrow. I know some of you have been hanging on every bit of bad news for the past 15 years predicting "THIS IS THE YEAR WHEN IT ALL FALLS APART, THIS IS TRUELY, TRUELY THE END!" It's old already, let it go. Indycar is not going away.

Thank you, and good night. : )