Tottenham Riots

[SGWilko]

Problem is, do you say something and risk them taking it badly?

That is EXACTLY the entire point. We, as law obiding citizens, should feel that we CAN take action without fear of attack or revenge or retaliation.

It is why there is little discipline in schools, because the teachers are open to being sued or even worse attacked by the parents of such scum.

This is the aspect of today's society that simply HAS to change.

In fact, the straw that broke the camels back for us, and when I initially contacted my boss to help us move, was my SMax was vandalised by one of the Lodger's friends who had got drugged up/drunk when his mate was found guilty. Quite why he decided to kick the 5h1t out of the ford when my flimsy 2CV was just round the corner I'll never know. I've got it all on disk, that one of neighbours gave me - luckily, they were just as fed up as us, so always kept his camera ready for the usual nightly activites!!!!!

[Daniel]

That is EXACTLY the entire point. We, as law obiding citizens, should feel that we CAN take action without fear of attack or revenge or retaliation.

It is why there is little discipline in schools, because the teachers are open to being sued or even worse attacked by the parents of such scum.

This is the aspect of today's society that simply HAS to change.

In fact, the straw that broke the camels back for us, and when I initially contacted my boss to help us move, was my SMax was vandalised by one of the Lodger's friends who had got drugged up/drunk when his mate was found guilty. Quite why he decided to kick the 5h1t out of the ford when my flimsy 2CV was just round the corner I'll never know. I've got it all on disk, that one of neighbours gave me - luckily, they were just as fed up as us, so always kept his camera ready for the usual nightly activites!!!!!

You don't want to think about what would have happened if he'd put his foot through a panel on the 2cv, you could have been sued if he'd hurt himself :p

I do agree that something needs to change.

I worry about the area where I live now in 5 years, the kids they have who are teens are going to be older, the kids who are 7-10 are going to be annoying little ****'s like their older siblings and I'm sure the mother will still be pumping more kids out rather than closing her legs.

[SGWilko]

You don't want to think about what would have happened if he'd put his foot through a panel on the 2cv, you could have been sued if he'd hurt himself :p

I do agree that something needs to change.

I worry about the area where I live now in 5 years, the kids they have who are teens are going to be older, the kids who are 7-10 are going to be annoying little ****'s like their older siblings and I'm sure the mother will still be pumping more kids out rather than closing her legs.

Indeed. The mentality of knocking out kids to get more benefits needs to stop. Housing association accomodation should be taken away from those who commit crime, and should be forced to seek council accomodation instead. Trouble is, and we found this at our old place, is that the Housing Associations are out to make money, and are not overly bothered about what goes on so long as they get their rent, which is usually guaranteed as it is from benefits.

We had a guy who was signed off work due to illness, and another tenant also signed off, was paying the guy to tutor her kid. He was not declaring the income, where did she get the money from. All used to smoke and drink....

Makes my blood boil it does!

[BDunnell]

Not at all, but my experience of the law (my grandfather was a bobby on the beat out of Tottenham Court Road Station in the days when the Police wore capes, did a good job and were respected because they showed respect) is that the Police should be allowed to enforce, not afraid to do their jobs for fear of legal action. Then there is all the paperwork that ties their hands behind their backs. Its a politically correct eggshell treading world gone mad, and has led to the police to being what it is sadly.

First of all, I have never experienced this 'politically correct' world to which you refer, and continue to fail to understand why people think it exists. The phrase is over-used as a catch-all term and has little or no grounding in reality. And, if it does, I'd far rather that than a world in which casual racism is acceptable. I hope you wouldn't seek to deny that the police was long a haven for racist and other similarly unreconstructed attitudes, and that, while things have undoubtedly improved, it surely still is.



As a matter of interest, I had to beg my old boss for a bridging loan so I could move house - we purchased a lovely townhouse - brand new it was. Then all the scum (and I use the word advisedly here) moved into the 'affordable housing' section. Only one family in that block were well meaning, and their lives were made a living hell. There was drug dealing, swearing, spitting, foul language, dangerous dogs, white goods left in front gardens etc. I wrote to the police so many times (in fact, I am still waiting for the chief of Kent police to reply....) to get them to do their jobs. We joined neighbouhood watch and tried to engage these people, but they were not interested. I can tell you that in the middle of summer, you could not open your windows otherwise my kids would have been exposed to the constant foul language from the communal play area at the front of the house (which we had to contribute toward for maintenance). So you see, I have an interest in seeing this area of a very broken society being dragged up by the scruff and finally being dealt with.

Ah yes, a 'broken society' — a nice slogan parroted by papers and politicians, but no more true now than it's ever been. Just because you hear it uttered over and over again doesn't make it right or worthwhile. What you describe is a problem area the like of which has existed since time immemorial. Why is this so? Generally, I'd say, a lack of will on the part of the authorities to deal with difficult problems, a lack of resources and a lack of support for measures that might actually root out the root causes of said problems, as borne out by large sections of the public wanting politicians to be 'tough on crime'.



If you are law abiding citizens, save for if you are unfortunate to have an RTA for example, you ought not to have to much to do with the police.

Does that disqualify one from having an opinion as to whether they are worth respecting?



Inefficency of the Police is well and truly one to be laid at the governments doorstep. You can't upset the ethnic minorities incase they cry wolf, the poor can't be picked on ya da etc.

Yes, let's blame the politicians rather than the inefficient police themselves. I would have thought you believe fully in individuals taking responsibility for their own actions.

Are politicians somehow also to blame for the culture of casual racism that existed/exists in the police force, for example?


You can't upset the ethnic minorities incase they cry wolf, the poor can't be picked on ya da etc.

Evidence? (And, by that, I mean not from a Daily Mail article.)



The way I see it is this - if you go, for example, to Abu Dhabi or wherever it is, and walk about showing a lot of flesh, you get banged up (and rightly so, you obey the law of the country) - so why can't our laws apply to all, instead of having to tippy toe on eggshells around every oik and his wife?

Our laws do apply to all. Where do you get the idea that they don't?

What you seem to be advocating is servile, unthinking respect for those in authority, and it's not a viewpoint I much care for.

[BDunnell]

On the contrary, every person that is found to have commited a crime should be dealt with in the same manner, regardless of whether it will upset their beliefs, faiths, human rights (and this is the big noose around the police/courts neck) etc.

In which case, you cannot be supportive of the manner in which normal sentencing guidelines have been arbitrarily thrown out of the window following the riots to appease those whose perspective on events is seen through the prism of believing in this entirely fallacious idea of a 'broken society'.

[BDunnell]

I'm certainly not making them out to be the innocent here, but if they are allowed to do their jobs - properly - without a multidude of legaleise, paperwork and human rights bollox getting in the way, then it will be a much more efficient and less corrupt police force that serves us.

Your criticism of the police having to deal with 'legalese' is amusing. Given that they are there to uphold the law, 'legalese' is rather important.

As for the rest, why do you think this has come about? Because, in large part, of the way the police were before.

[SGWilko]

In which case, you cannot be supportive of the manner in which normal sentencing guidelines have been arbitrarily thrown out of the window following the riots to appease those whose perspective on events is seen through the prism of believing in this entirely fallacious idea of a 'broken society'.

So, as far as you are concerned, everything is fine and dandy.

Give the rioters a stern talking to, tell 'em 'don't be naughty again please' and be done with it?

[BDunnell]

I see it that if you break the law, you should cease to have rights - it's a choice thing - if you choose to break the law, you choose to suffer the consequences.

What you mean is 'when you get caught', which is rather different, and a worrying concept if seen through.

[BDunnell]

So, as far as you are concerned, everything is fine and dandy.

Give the rioters a stern talking to, tell 'em 'don't be naughty again please' and be done with it?

Did you read the Economist article to which I posted a link earlier? It sums up my views very well. There is no point making more of recent events than they deserve. It just stokes up more public fear.

[BDunnell]

I think the problem is that people treat black people differently. Not always in a bad way mind you, but sometimes just differently. We need to stop treating people differently because their skin is a different colour and look at who they are....

Fact is scum/chavs/whatever come in all colours, we had a family move in up the street in the last year with loads of kids and they have NO respect for anyone elses property or their personal space. They happily play in the front yards of the people living in the small old people's complex, they kick their football around (and into) people's cars, ride their bikes into Caroline's car....... They've got some really young kids maybe 3 or 4 years old which play right next to the road and they have NO road sense at all :mark: Problem is, do you say something and risk them taking it badly?

There are awful people of all creeds and colours, sadly. This has forever been the case, and will forever be the case.

[BDunnell]

That is EXACTLY the entire point. We, as law obiding citizens, should feel that we CAN take action without fear of attack or revenge or retaliation.

Even if that action is, in fact, deeply misguided? Is the fact of them taking it the important thing to you, rather than the wisdom of their action?

[SGWilko]

Your criticism of the police having to deal with 'legalese' is amusing. Given that they are there to uphold the law, 'legalese' is rather important.

As for the rest, why do you think this has come about? Because, in large part, of the way the police were before.

I'm sorry. We are all affected by the recession, by multinationals hiking prices, less disposeable income etc. Do you see me throwing bricks at the police, burning down buildings with people still in them, looting rioting.

No, I was taught by my parents right from wrong, in a time when if were naughty at school, the headmaster would give you the cane and put some stink on it. And if my parents found out about it, they'd punish me too.

What happened to that mentality - did the marshians come down one evening and whisk it away?

No - now, the feckless and bone idle can claim benefits, those that cannot be arsed to learn know they will have benefits to fall back on when they drop out of school.

Well, I wont apologise for my views.

I've had to work bloody hard to get what I've got. My family did not have the money to own/run a car until I was 11, and even then it was some old banger my dad bought off a work colleague. Didn't go abroad on holiday as not enough money.

All the money we had was spent on the family, so that mu mother could stay at home to bring me and my sister up.

Then, when we wanted a bigger house, we had to wait until we were old enough so mum could go back to work, and dad had an extention built.

We could play out in the street, all the neighbours looked out for each other.

Contrast that to the picture of where I found myself in 2007.......

What's changed - I'm still the same person.

[SGWilko]

Even if that action is, in fact, deeply misguided? Is the fact of them taking it the important thing to you, rather than the wisdom of their action?

What on earth is wrong with chastising someone elses kid if they are naughty? Why can't you ask a noisy neighbour to be a bit more considerate and quieten down? Why can't teacher discipline her class?

[BDunnell]

I'm sorry. We are all affected by the recession, by multinationals hiking prices, less disposeable income etc. Do you see me throwing bricks at the police, burning down buildings with people still in them, looting rioting.

No, I was taught by my parents right from wrong, in a time when if were naughty at school, the headmaster would give you the cane and put some stink on it. And if my parents found out about it, they'd punish me too.

What happened to that mentality - did the marshians come down one evening and whisk it away?

No - now, the feckless and bone idle can claim benefits, those that cannot be arsed to learn know they will have benefits to fall back on when they drop out of school.

Well, I wont apologise for my views.

I've had to work bloody hard to get what I've got. My family did not have the money to own/run a car until I was 11, and even then it was some old banger my dad bought off a work colleague. Didn't go abroad on holiday as not enough money.

All the money we had was spent on the family, so that mu mother could stay at home to bring me and my sister up.

Then, when we wanted a bigger house, we had to wait until we were old enough so mum could go back to work, and dad had an extention built.

We could play out in the street, all the neighbours looked out for each other.

Contrast that to the picture of where I found myself in 2007.......

What's changed - I'm still the same person.

With respect, none of this renders you in any sense exceptional, nor right. You don't see me looting or burning buildings either; I too have always worked hard; and I do not exactly come from a privileged background, yet my perspective on this is completely different to yours. Where does that difference lie? Maybe in the fact that I don't let society as a whole scare me.

[BDunnell]

What on earth is wrong with chastising someone elses kid if they are naughty? Why can't you ask a noisy neighbour to be a bit more considerate and quieten down? Why can't teacher discipline her class?

People can, and still, do all those things.

[SGWilko]

People can, and still, do all those things.

Tell that to the chap who did just that and got stabbed to death for his efforts........

[BDunnell]

Tell that to the chap who did just that and got stabbed to death for his efforts........

Your point being? Of course, that incident was terrible, but doesn't disguise the fact that it is hardly the norm.

[SGWilko]

Your point being? Of course, that incident was terrible, but doesn't disguise the fact that it is hardly the norm.

I'm afraid that gang culture is really rather prevalent actually.

[SGWilko]

With respect, none of this renders you in any sense exceptional, nor right. You don't see me looting or burning buildings either; I too have always worked hard; and I do not exactly come from a privileged background, yet my perspective on this is completely different to yours. Where does that difference lie? Maybe in the fact that I don't let society as a whole scare me.

May I ask, what happened to you to be so anti police?

[Daniel]

Your point being? Of course, that incident was terrible, but doesn't disguise the fact that it is hardly the norm.

But being killed for speaking up doesn't have to be the norm for people to stop doing it.

[Daniel]

There are awful people of all creeds and colours, sadly. This has forever been the case, and will forever be the case.

Definitely. But I think we need to recognise that certain problems seem to be stronger within certain communities, not because of their race, perhaps because of previous racism or other factors.

[SGWilko]

But being killed for speaking up doesn't have to be the norm for people to stop doing it.

And lenient sentences for the perpetrators will not discourage others from such behaviour.

All this claptrap about prisons becoming full. Put the criminal population to good use - get them to build more. It'll give them something meaningful to do and they can learn a trade/skill at the same time.

[BDunnell]

May I ask, what happened to you to be so anti police?

Nothing happened to me, but I know that the fact of something happening to oneself doesn't make it typical, or even relevant to such a discussion. There seems now to be an increasing emphasis on the use of individual anecdotes to try and prove a point — David Cameron, I note, is very fond of this — despite the fact that they are often one-sided or just plain unreliable.

My dislike of the police — not all those in the job, by any means, but rather institutionally — is based upon the repeated and demonstrable examples of injustice, inefficiency and downright corruption on the part of police forces over many years, the fact that I believe the police to still be a haven for the sort of casual racism, homophobia and sexism that quite rightly were drummed out of civilised society some time ago, and the fact that I do not believe that automatic respect should ever be conferred upon anyone by the donning of a uniform.

[BDunnell]

Definitely. But I think we need to recognise that certain problems seem to be stronger within certain communities, not because of their race, perhaps because of previous racism or other factors.

And then tackle the underlying causes rather than just banging them up, perhaps.

[BDunnell]

And lenient sentences for the perpetrators will not discourage others from such behaviour.

All this claptrap about prisons becoming full. Put the criminal population to good use - get them to build more. It'll give them something meaningful to do and they can learn a trade/skill at the same time.

Build what? To what end?

[SGWilko]

Build what? To what end?

Rehabilitation perhaps?

[Malbec]

I'm afraid that gang culture is really rather prevalent actually.

No its not. Even in London gang culture is limited to certain areas. I've lived in different areas of London over the years and I've never encountered it directly although I make a point of avoiding areas where I know it exists.

Is it prevalent in deprived areas? That is a different question and the answer to that would be yes.

[Malbec]

Definitely. But I think we need to recognise that certain problems seem to be stronger within certain communities, not because of their race, perhaps because of previous racism or other factors.

Why this fixation on race?

In many medium sized British towns where there is a problem with kids/teenagers causing trouble they are from the most prevalent race, white English.

Even with the recent riots the majority of those arrested have been white.

[BDunnell]

No its not. Even in London gang culture is limited to certain areas. I've lived in different areas of London over the years and I've never encountered it directly although I make a point of avoiding areas where I know it exists.

My experience exactly. Yet you always hear a lot said about it, as though it's somehow unavoidable. Not once did I let it worry me.

[Daniel]

Why this fixation on race?

In many medium sized British towns where there is a problem with kids/teenagers causing trouble they are from the most prevalent race, white English.

Even with the recent riots the majority of those arrested have been white.

I think you miss my point :)

I'm saying that because of racism in the past or perhaps perceived racism now, some sectors of the community appear to have less opportunities than others or indeed feel that they have no opportunities other than a life of crime and that may have partly lead to this behaviour.

Whilst the majority of people involved were white, would it not be fair to say that a disproportionate amount appeared to be black? We need to see why that is and look at addressing these issues

[Daniel]

And then tackle the underlying causes rather than just banging them up, perhaps.

Definitely. Prevention is better than the cure and all that, but for some people prevention is too late.

[BDunnell]

Whilst the majority of people involved were white, would it not be fair to say that a disproportionate amount appeared to be black? We need to see why that is and look at addressing these issues

I'm afraid I am lost by this comment, Daniel. If the majority were white, how can a disproportionate amount then be black? It would be disproportionate if the majority had been black, surely?

[Daniel]

I'm afraid I am lost by this comment, Daniel. If the majority were white, how can a disproportionate amount then be black? It would be disproportionate if the majority had been black, surely?

:mark:

If there are 100 people in the country and 10 are black with 90 being white....
And there is a riot with 10 people in it and 7 are white and 3 are black....
The majority are white, but a disproportionate amount are black non?

[BDunnell]

:mark:

If there are 100 people in the country and 10 are black with 90 being white....
And there is a riot with 10 people in it and 7 are white and 3 are black....
The majority are white, but a disproportionate amount are black non?

I don't count three tenths as being disproportionate compared with one tenth. And I — and I presume you — have no idea what the actual figures are.

I too don't see why race need even be mentioned in this context. It's irrelevant. The problems that are relevant transcend ethnic boundaries.

[Daniel]

I don't count three tenths as being disproportionate compared with one tenth. And I — and I presume you — have no idea what the actual figures are.

I too don't see why race need even be mentioned in this context. It's irrelevant. The problems that are relevant transcend ethnic boundaries.

I did say appeared to be black.

Whilst I agree that the riots transcended ethnic boundaries, it did appear to have a little to do with affluence and it would appear that social mobility for black people is fairly low wouldn't it?

[Malbec]

it would appear that social mobility for black people is fairly low wouldn't it?

I don't know about that. I think social mobility in this country for poor people is pretty low full stop.

Regardless of ethnicity those who have the lowest income are least likely to get engaged with higher education or other forms of training, find out and benefit from initiatives aimed at helping people in their position and benefit otherwise from things that will help them gain a higher quality of life.

The only exception to this are refugees who are from middle class/professional backgrounds and while the first generation may live in poverty they do sacrifice a lot to ensure their kids are educated and are more successful than they are.

In the old days where Britain had a need for large pools of unskilled labour the poorest still had decent job prospects. In the current market that demands high levels of skills to get a job the poorest are excluded. If you could find a way to break this cycle and get the poorest to engage with education and become employable then you'd be a very rich man indeed, just about every country in the world has a problem with this social group.

[SGWilko]

:mark:

If there are 100 people in the country and 10 are black with 90 being white....
And there is a riot with 10 people in it and 7 are white and 3 are black....
The majority are white, but a disproportionate amount are black non?

I think that is a fair observation.

Also, a lot of people, in times of austerity, are unhappy about the abuse of services - such as NHS, the welfare system, by the minority who flaunt the system by living here illegally burdoning the country's welfare and care bills.

Whatever the root cause, it does not excuse what has happened and a stop needs to be put to it.

They are doing it.

Lets now concern ourselves with sorting out the root causes.

[Malbec]

Also, a lot of people, in times of austerity, are unhappy about the abuse of services - such as NHS, the welfare system, by the minority who flaunt the system by living here illegally burdoning the country's welfare and care bills.

The NHS?

The poorest are actually least likely to access healthcare of any sort. It is not an accident that the life expectancy in Hampstead is 10 years longer than Kentish Town 5 minutes drive away.

If the middle class worried well could tear themselves away from going to the local hospital or GP every time they chip a nail the NHS would save a mint.

[SGWilko]

I don't know about that. I think social mobility in this country for poor people is pretty low full stop.

Regardless of ethnicity those who have the lowest income are least likely to get engaged with higher education or other forms of training, find out and benefit from initiatives aimed at helping people in their position and benefit otherwise from things that will help them gain a higher quality of life.

The only exception to this are refugees who are from middle class/professional backgrounds and while the first generation may live in poverty they do sacrifice a lot to ensure their kids are educated and are more successful than they are.

In the old days where Britain had a need for large pools of unskilled labour the poorest still had decent job prospects. In the current market that demands high levels of skills to get a job the poorest are excluded. If you could find a way to break this cycle and get the poorest to engage with education and become employable then you'd be a very rich man indeed, just about every country in the world has a problem with this social group.

What?

I didn't go to university until I was at work. I got a job with the qualifications I got from the education system (Primary, Junior, Secondary School and then College, all paid for by the state).

What I did do was keep my nose clean and paid attention.

Unless you are suggesting that the poor are thick, then your argument is not holding water.

[SGWilko]

If the middle class worried well could tear themselves away from going to the local hospital or GP every time they chip a nail the NHS would save a mint.

Indeed. But the NHS is providing a service for which is was never intended - who's the brainless twerp that allowed that to happen?

[Malbec]

What?

I didn't go to university until I was at work. I got a job with the qualifications I got from the education system (Primary, Junior, Secondary School and then College, all paid for by the state).

What I did do was keep my nose clean and paid attention.

Unless you are suggesting that the poor are thick, then your argument is not holding water.

You seem to take things literally personally.

It is a fact that those from the poorest sections of society are least likely to go to sixth form let alone university. There is a cultural issue at work here as well as one of cost, those from the poorest backgrounds are less likely to consider themselves capable of acheiving the required grades and are less likely to have parents willing to support them through education during that time.

They are also less likely to recognise the added value and improved salary associated with education beyond the legal minimum.

The fact that you have made it through to higher education does not invalidate my point, if in fact you even came up from the poorest parts of society that I'm referring to.

[Malbec]

Indeed. But the NHS is providing a service for which is was never intended - who's the brainless twerp that allowed that to happen?

You, the taxpayer.

[BDunnell]

Also, a lot of people, in times of austerity, are unhappy about the abuse of services - such as NHS, the welfare system, by the minority who flaunt the system by living here illegally burdoning the country's welfare and care bills.

I can't say I have ever experienced a moment's unhappiness about this.

[BDunnell]

Indeed. But the NHS is providing a service for which is was never intended - who's the brainless twerp that allowed that to happen?

Which service is this, and where does it say it was never intended?

[BDunnell]

What?

I didn't go to university until I was at work. I got a job with the qualifications I got from the education system (Primary, Junior, Secondary School and then College, all paid for by the state).

What I did do was keep my nose clean and paid attention.

Unless you are suggesting that the poor are thick, then your argument is not holding water.

Yes, we get the idea that you're a hard worker. But this hardly marks you out as some kind of exception, whether amongst your own generation or the current one.

[BDunnell]

You seem to take things literally personally.

It is a fact that those from the poorest sections of society are least likely to go to sixth form let alone university. There is a cultural issue at work here as well as one of cost, those from the poorest backgrounds are less likely to consider themselves capable of acheiving the required grades and are less likely to have parents willing to support them through education during that time.

They are also less likely to recognise the added value and improved salary associated with education beyond the legal minimum.

The fact that you have made it through to higher education does not invalidate my point, if in fact you even came up from the poorest parts of society that I'm referring to.

Now, unfortunately, we have in power a government which believes it possible to even out all the inequalities in education at the point at which people go to university, creating a dreadful situation all of its own.

[Malbec]

Now, unfortunately, we have in power a government which believes it possible to even out all the inequalities in education at the point at which people go to university, creating a dreadful situation all of its own.

Or indeed the education maintenance allowance being scrapped which has arguably had a bigger effect in discouraging further education for the poor.

[SGWilko]

Yes, we get the idea that you're a hard worker. But this hardly marks you out as some kind of exception, whether amongst your own generation or the current one.

I shouldn't be the exception, that's the point.

[SGWilko]

Which service is this, and where does it say it was never intended?

Sex changes, breast enhancements......

[BDunnell]

I shouldn't be the exception, that's the point.

How do you know that you are? Note that I ask 'how do you know', not 'why do you think'.

[SGWilko]

How do you know that you are? Note that I ask 'how do you know', not 'why do you think'.

Whilst I am unique (thank goodness, one of me is enough), there are, I hope, many others equally minded. It is this collective that should not be the exception.

[Malbec]

Sex changes, breast enhancements......

Unnecessary? Who says?

The vast majority of breast enhancements done on the NHS by far are for one reason, to replace breast tissue removed during a mastectomy for breast cancer. Good cosmetic results are proven to show better post-surgical recovery and reduced incidence of depression.

As for sex changes, how else would you treat someone who has gender identity disorders who is resistant to all other treatments? It is not easy to qualify for surgery by any means which is a treatment of last resort anyway.

You may not like the treatments but the disorders they are used to treat are very real.

[Malbec]

I shouldn't be the exception, that's the point.

If your grandfather was a police officer as you claim you're not in the social cohort we're talking about, unless your father made a real hash of his life.

[SGWilko]

Unnecessary? Who says?

The vast majority of breast enhancements done on the NHS by far are for one reason, to replace breast tissue removed during a mastectomy for breast cancer. Good cosmetic results are proven to show better post-surgical recovery and reduced incidence of depression.

As for sex changes, how else would you treat someone who has gender identity disorders who is resistant to all other treatments? It is not easy to qualify for surgery by any means which is a treatment of last resort anyway.

You may not like the treatments but the disorders they are used to treat are very real.

Sheesh, how did we ever manage before the NHS?

Mind you, overpopulation wasn't an issue back then was it?

[Malbec]

Sheesh, how did we ever manage before the NHS?

Mind you, overpopulation wasn't an issue back then was it?

If you want a health system that treats all conditions you can't pick and choose what methods it uses to treat them if they are shown to be cost effective merely because you find the treatments odd or amusing.

You asked before who is to blame, its you the taxpayer who won't vote for any politician that wants to cut down what cover the NHS provides.

[SGWilko]

If you want a health system that treats all conditions you can't pick and choose what methods it uses to treat them if they are shown to be cost effective merely because you find the treatments odd or amusing.

You asked before who is to blame, its you the taxpayer who won't vote for any politician that wants to cut down what cover the NHS provides.

Mmmmm, who did I vote for again then?

[BDunnell]

Whilst I am unique (thank goodness, one of me is enough), there are, I hope, many others equally minded. It is this collective that should not be the exception.

Why do you 'hope' that others are of like mind? The opinion you feel should be shared by everyone flies in the face of reason, history and fact, no matter what David Cameron and others may tell you.

[BDunnell]

Unnecessary? Who says?

The vast majority of breast enhancements done on the NHS by far are for one reason, to replace breast tissue removed during a mastectomy for breast cancer. Good cosmetic results are proven to show better post-surgical recovery and reduced incidence of depression.

As for sex changes, how else would you treat someone who has gender identity disorders who is resistant to all other treatments? It is not easy to qualify for surgery by any means which is a treatment of last resort anyway.

You may not like the treatments but the disorders they are used to treat are very real.

And you can bet your life that reporting of the figures for such operations in certain papers would not tell the whole story, not that this seems to matter to those who read them and believe every word as though it's gospel.

[SGWilko]

Why do you 'hope' that others are of like mind? The opinion you feel should be shared by everyone flies in the face of reason, history and fact, no matter what David Cameron and others may tell you.

So. is it just me that was 'dragged up proper' then?

[BDunnell]

Sheesh, how did we ever manage before the NHS?

Mind you, overpopulation wasn't an issue back then was it?

Before the NHS, the operations to which you refer didn't take place, as far as I am aware, so the comparison is entirely erroneous — quite apart from the fact that it would be an uncaring society that denied such procedures to all but those able to pay for them.

[BDunnell]

So. is it just me that was 'dragged up proper' then?

I would consider myself to have been well-brought-up, yet I simply don't see this societal collapse to which you constantly refer.

[SGWilko]

And you can bet your life that reporting of the figures for such operations in certain papers would not tell the whole story, not that this seems to matter to those who read them and believe every word as though it's gospel.

Folk are capable of making up their own minds/forming their own opions - believe it or not.

The only guaranteed truth in the papers these days is the date on the front page - and even that's incorrect the next day.....

[SGWilko]

I would consider myself to have been well-brought-up, yet I simply don't see this societal collapse to which you constantly refer.

I was referring to applying oneself at school, making the effort etc.

As we know, there is nowt wrong, it was all just a Guy Ritchie film trailer, and they showed different bits on different nights............

[BDunnell]

Folk are capable of making up their own minds/forming their own opions - believe it or not.

An awful lot of experience has shown me otherwise.

[BDunnell]

I was referring to applying oneself at school, making the effort etc.

What is it that makes you think that those of us here who disagree with you didn't?

[SGWilko]

What is it that makes you think that those of us here who disagree with you didn't?

Nothing.

[BDunnell]

Nothing.

In that case, I'm unsure as to what the point is you're trying to make.

[Malbec]

As expected, here we go:

Riots: Mother jailed for handling looted shorts freed on appeal | UK news | The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/19/riots-mother-looted-shorts-freed)

A woman who slept through the riots at home and got jailed for five months for receiving a pair of nicked shorts got her sentence reduced on appeal.

This opens the floodgates, not surprising given the total inconsistency of the sentences so far.

[Retro Formula 1]

Judges are not perfect and you have identified one instance where the sentence was wrong. Fortunately, that is why we have an appeals process and it worked on this situation perfectly.

However, in general, I applaud the sentences that have been passed. I encourage the severity because it sends out a clear message that this type of criminal public disorder is not going to be tolerated.

[SGWilko]

Judges are not perfect and you have identified one instance where the sentence was wrong. Fortunately, that is why we have an appeals process and it worked on this situation perfectly.

However, in general, I applaud the sentences that have been passed. I encourage the severity because it sends out a clear message that this type of criminal public disorder is not going to be tolerated.

Oh 5h!t, duck for cover, BDunnel will be along to put you straight in a minute! ;)

What we need are pi55 weak sentences to show the scum/louts/yobs that they can carry on regardless, and anyway, they have a low esteem and wont ever apply themselves in school, and as we have a generous benefit system, they don't even need to bother anyway......

[BDunnell]

Judges are not perfect and you have identified one instance where the sentence was wrong. Fortunately, that is why we have an appeals process and it worked on this situation perfectly.

However, in general, I applaud the sentences that have been passed. I encourage the severity because it sends out a clear message that this type of criminal public disorder is not going to be tolerated.

At some point, however, something similar will happen again, come what may — human nature alas being what it is.

[BDunnell]

Oh 5h!t, duck for cover, BDunnel will be along to put you straight in a minute! ;)

What we need are pi55 weak sentences to show the scum/louts/yobs that they can carry on regardless, and anyway, they have a low esteem and wont ever apply themselves in school, and as we have a generous benefit system, they don't even need to bother anyway......

I have no problem with stiff sentencing if it is justified and in line with reasonable precedent.

[Retro Formula 1]

At some point, however, something similar will happen again, come what may — human nature alas being what it is.

That is always a possibility but stiffer sentences will act as a deterrent. The reason these riots spread so prolifically is that people say them as mob rule with no consequences. The mentality of people casually walking into a looted shop to steal a bottle of water bears out the antipathy for the Law. Hopefully people will see these sentences as a wake up call that there is a consequence.

[BDunnell]

That is always a possibility but stiffer sentences will act as a deterrent. The reason these riots spread so prolifically is that people say them as mob rule with no consequences. The mentality of people casually walking into a looted shop to steal a bottle of water bears out the antipathy for the Law. Hopefully people will see these sentences as a wake up call that there is a consequence.

Sentences for murder, rape, etc are pretty stiff, yet people still commit them.

And I don't think that someone taking a bottle of water is in any sense representative of a breakdown of society, nor even worthy of a court's time.

[Daniel]

Sentences for murder, rape, etc are pretty stiff, yet people still commit them.

And I don't think that someone taking a bottle of water is in any sense representative of a breakdown of society, nor even worthy of a court's time.

Whilst I agree about the bottle of water sentence, I think rioting and rape or murder very different crimes.

[BDunnell]

Whilst I agree about the bottle of water sentence, I think rioting and rape or murder very different crimes.

Your point being?

[SGWilko]

Your point being?

His opinion differs from yours.......

[BDunnell]

His opinion differs from yours.......

That's as maybe, but I genuinely have no idea what point Daniel was making.

[Daniel]

That's as maybe, but I genuinely have no idea what point Daniel was making.

My point is that for instance murder is sometimes committed without thought of the consequences, in a moment of anger for instance.

[BDunnell]

My point is that for instance murder is sometimes committed without thought of the consequences, in a moment of anger for instance.

As are a lot of crimes.

[Bob Riebe]

My point is that for instance murder is sometimes committed without thought of the consequences, in a moment of anger for instance.That is an excuse to commit murder.
The anger had better come from some one having raped his/her daughter or that one should be made toast in an electric chair also.

[Bob Riebe]

Sentences for murder, rape, etc are pretty stiff, yet people still commit them.
Then execute them and we will be guaranteed it will not happen again by that goblin.

[markabilly]

after perry is elected as the neweest, pistol packing, president of the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, he can give some good advice to you brits, far better than that ex-LA police chief.....about how to reduce the rodent population..........

[BDunnell]

Then execute them and we will be guaranteed it will not happen again by that goblin.

Maybe you might like to re-write that sentence in English?

[Daniel]

That is an excuse to commit murder.
The anger had better come from some one having raped his/her daughter or that one should be made toast in an electric chair also.

No, it's an explanation. Some people just get plain angry and lose control.

[BDunnell]

No, it's an explanation. Some people just get plain angry and lose control.

I'm glad you understood what his post meant. The individual words in his comment are all fine, but not in that order.

[ArrowsFA1]

The British public strongly supports tougher sentencing for those involved in rioting, a Guardian/ICM poll has found.

British public supports harsher sentences over riots | UK news | guardian.co.uk (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/23/british-supports-harsher-sentences-riots)

[Malbec]

That is always a possibility but stiffer sentences will act as a deterrent. The reason these riots spread so prolifically is that people say them as mob rule with no consequences. The mentality of people casually walking into a looted shop to steal a bottle of water bears out the antipathy for the Law. Hopefully people will see these sentences as a wake up call that there is a consequence.

I don't think heavy sentencing itself is a deterrent, otherwise in the US we'd see a clear difference in murder rates between states that have the death penalty and those that don't use it. We'd also have seen a rise in similar crimes across Europe with the phasing out of the death sentence in various countries over the past few decades. In fact Europe has seen a steady decline in murder.

Likewise despite people compaining about supposedly softer sentencing and prison conditions over the past few years crime rates now are lower than they have been for quite some time. How can that be if harsh sentencing is a deterrent?

What does deter crime is the probability of being caught and sentenced. The fact that the police are using every means at their disposal to chase, arrest and push for conviction combined with the greater willingness of the magistrates to find plaintiffs guilty will likely have a greater effect than the actual sentences themselves.

In the long term there needs to be a review of the way the CPS reviews cases and chooses which ones it will go for and which ones it will drop. At the moment it drops far too many cases, the root causes of that need to be identified and addressed. That will go further to deter crime in the long term than the kneejerk reactions we're getting now. And thats a separate issue again from identifying why people turn to crime in the first place.

[Bob Riebe]

No, it's an explanation. Some people just get plain angry and lose control.ANY ONE who just plain gets angry and commits murder, IS A DANGER to society and should be either in a maximum security nuthouse or executed the first time he commits murder.

There is no excuse for such behaviour, nor are such nutjobs anything close to common in any society.

[BDunnell]

I don't think heavy sentencing itself is a deterrent, otherwise in the US we'd see a clear difference in murder rates between states that have the death penalty and those that don't use it. We'd also have seen a rise in similar crimes across Europe with the phasing out of the death sentence in various countries over the past few decades. In fact Europe has seen a steady decline in murder.

Likewise despite people compaining about supposedly softer sentencing and prison conditions over the past few years crime rates now are lower than they have been for quite some time. How can that be if harsh sentencing is a deterrent?

What does deter crime is the probability of being caught and sentenced. The fact that the police are using every means at their disposal to chase, arrest and push for conviction combined with the greater willingness of the magistrates to find plaintiffs guilty will likely have a greater effect than the actual sentences themselves.

In the long term there needs to be a review of the way the CPS reviews cases and chooses which ones it will go for and which ones it will drop. At the moment it drops far too many cases, the root causes of that need to be identified and addressed. That will go further to deter crime in the long term than the kneejerk reactions we're getting now. And thats a separate issue again from identifying why people turn to crime in the first place.

To that I'd add that a few moments' thought as to the motivation behind the committing of crimes is worthwhile. Do people make their judgment as to whether to commit a crime on the basis of the sentence they might receive if caught? Would a gang about to commit a burglary decide not to do so if they heard on their car radio on the way to the raid that the government had decided to double the standard sentence for said crime? I very much doubt it.

Or, to look at it another way, us generally law-abiding citizens may also wish to consider why we don't commit crimes. Do we choose not to on the basis of the potential sentence we may receive? I know that's not my primary reasoning. Simply not being minded to do so figures rather higher on the list of factors.

[BDunnell]

ANY ONE who just plain gets angry and commits murder, IS A DANGER to society and should be either in a maximum security nuthouse or executed the first time he commits murder.

There is no excuse for such behaviour, nor are such nutjobs anything close to common in any society.

Those who just plain get angry and do not commit murder are also a concern.

[52Paddy]

A bottle of water? This world is sh!te.

[Daniel]

ANY ONE who just plain gets angry and commits murder, IS A DANGER to society and should be either in a maximum security nuthouse or executed the first time he commits murder.

There is no excuse for such behaviour, nor are such nutjobs anything close to common in any society.

*sigh* you just don't get it do you?

[Bob Riebe]

*sigh* you just don't get it do you?
No, you are saying simply getting mad is an excuse, or you would not have used such an analogy.
Try again.

[Daniel]

No, you are saying simply getting mad is an excuse, or you would not have used such an analogy.
Try again.

You never got angry and did something you later regretted?

[Bob Riebe]

Those who just plain get angry and do not commit murder are also a concern.
In some instances absolutely.
The sports father's, who have temper tantrums, is a glaring example in my mind

[SGWilko]

Back to the riots, and the press are reporting that the majority of those charged with offences related to the riots, already had a criminal record.

Is anyone really actually surprised?

Make 'em work for the state as their punishment, and no matter how good the little darlings are, don't let 'em off early I say........

[Knock-on]

There is the beginning of a groundswell of support behind that view SGWilko.

We all need to live in this country and elect a Government to manage it. People that want to buck against the majority of the people have choices.

1. Live within the Law of the land
2. Get punished for transgressing those laws
3. Feck off somewhere else where they accept your behaviour and you will be happier

I think the people of this country have been saying for a long time that the current judicial system is too soft of habitual criminals and out of control, feral adolescents. It's about time a sharp shock is brought back to give them a wake up call and teach them that breaking the law brings consequences that they don't like.

[Daniel]

Back to the riots, and the press are reporting that the majority of those charged with offences related to the riots, already had a criminal record.

Is anyone really actually surprised?

Make 'em work for the state as their punishment, and no matter how good the little darlings are, don't let 'em off early I say........
If we'd just shot them at the time we wouldn't have this problem.

[Knock-on]

If we'd just shot them at the time we wouldn't have this problem.

Stupid, idiotic comments add nothing to the thread.

Last time I heard these sorts of views was during apartheid.

[Daniel]

There is the beginning of a groundswell of support behind that view SGWilko.

We all need to live in this country and elect a Government to manage it. People that want to buck against the majority of the people have choices.

1. Live within the Law of the land
2. Get punished for transgressing those laws
3. Feck off somewhere else where they accept your behaviour and you will be happier

I think the people of this country have been saying for a long time that the current judicial system is too soft of habitual criminals and out of control, feral adolescents. It's about time a sharp shock is brought back to give them a wake up call and teach them that breaking the law brings consequences that they don't like.

Whilst I agree, in practice I think it's certainly not an easy task when we're dealing with very low level crime. Personally I think people who are rioting should be shot, I know others will disagree but I think people disregarding the law of the land en masse need to be dealt with harshly. If on the first night of proper rioting in London people were shot and killed, does anyone honestly think this would have continued out of control? You can punish people after the fact (and we should), but if people think there's a good chance they'll get away, then they're going to continue to do this sort of thing when the opportunity arises.

THe only problem I see is dealing with the root cause which is petty crime and vandalism and the fact that people in some areas are (rightly) scared of the youths in the area due to gun and knife crime so they don't do anything about it.

[Daniel]

Stupid, idiotic comments add nothing to the thread.

Last time I heard these sorts of views was during apartheid.

What is the point of these people though? What contribution are they making to society? IMHO this was not just a tiny little bit of unrest, this was a segment of the population waging war on everyone else and tbh they should have used far stronger methods of control far faster than they did and this would never have travelled across the country to Liverpool, Birmingham and Manchester.

[SGWilko]

There is the beginning of a groundswell of support behind that view SGWilko.

We all need to live in this country and elect a Government to manage it. People that want to buck against the majority of the people have choices.

1. Live within the Law of the land
2. Get punished for transgressing those laws
3. Feck off somewhere else where they accept your behaviour and you will be happier

I think the people of this country have been saying for a long time that the current judicial system is too soft of habitual criminals and out of control, feral adolescents. It's about time a sharp shock is brought back to give them a wake up call and teach them that breaking the law brings consequences that they don't like.

Indeed - Criminals, once convicted, should cease to have any rights for the duration of their punishment. I do not mean lock 'em up and throw the key away, but certainly, make them jolly well aware they are being punished in a manner that will make them think twice before offending again.

Sex offenders/rapists - again, punish them properly, and where there is cast iron evidence, castrate them. If that is too harsh, then don't offend.

[SGWilko]

Whilst I agree, in practice I think it's certainly not an easy task when we're dealing with very low level crime. Personally I think people who are rioting should be shot, I know others will disagree but I think people disregarding the law of the land en masse need to be dealt with harshly. If on the first night of proper rioting in London people were shot and killed, does anyone honestly think this would have continued out of control? You can punish people after the fact (and we should), but if people think there's a good chance they'll get away, then they're going to continue to do this sort of thing when the opportunity arises.

THe only problem I see is dealing with the root cause which is petty crime and vandalism and the fact that people in some areas are (rightly) scared of the youths in the area due to gun and knife crime so they don't do anything about it.

I hope you are joking. Are you condoning what the rulers in Bahrain did to their people???

Justice is left wanting in this country, deal with effective punishment first before shooting people who are allowed to re-offend by a flawed legal system......

If the police had shot at the rioters, I think we'd instantly lose control of our streets! :eek:

[Daniel]

I hope you are joking. Are you condoning what the rulers in Bahrain did to their people???

Justice is left wanting in this country, deal with effective punishment first before shooting people who are allowed to re-offend by a flawed legal system......

I'm sorry, this is nothing like Bahrain, these people are persecuted and were being shot by an opressive government. The two things are completely different.

[SGWilko]

I'm sorry, this is nothing like Bahrain, these people are persecuted and were being shot by an opressive government. The two things are completely different.

It is a whole sector of society that has been left to rot - poverty, bad parenting, benefits that are way too easy to qualify for, lack of jobs, financial constraint. Whilst I think a lot of these offenders are a waste of space, if they are not properly dealt with on the first offence, they will continue on their path to self destruction of their own neighbourhoods.

[Daniel]

It is a whole sector of society that has been left to rot - poverty, bad parenting, benefits that are way too easy to qualify for, lack of jobs, financial constraint. Whilst I think a lot of these offenders are a waste of space, if they are not properly dealt with on the first offence, they will continue on their path to self destruction of their own neighbourhoods.

Yes that's part of the problem. But you can't legislate good parenting. What happens when a vindictive next door neighbour reports you for leaving your child in a locked car out the front of your house for 30 seconds?

The fact is that these people continue the cycle of poverty. Someone opens a shop up in their area, they steal from the shop, they vandalise it etc etc. they then complain when they get singled out for being stopped and searched. You can't have your cake and eat it.

[SGWilko]

Yes that's part of the problem. But you can't legislate good parenting. What happens when a vindictive next door neighbour reports you for leaving your child in a locked car out the front of your house for 30 seconds?

The fact is that these people continue the cycle of poverty. Someone opens a shop up in their area, they steal from the shop, they vandalise it etc etc. they then complain when they get singled out for being stopped and searched. You can't have your cake and eat it.

Daniel - you ever hear of common sense? Explain to whoever comes to investigate that it was only for 30 seconds! My parents used to leave me and my sister in the car when we were small when they went shopping - probably because they could, without fear of some mindless moron ringing up social services....... You can certainly educate people to become good parents, it is of course up to them to follow that through though. Family values, what happened to them? - you pointed out earlier on another thread that you couldn't talk to your parents about embarassing stuff - if you can't talk to your own parents, in my book, there is something wrong.

Mind you, I will just be labelled old fashioned etc, but until someone grows a set and deals with the root cause of societies fundamental shortcomings, nothing will change.

[BDunnell]

Family values, what happened to them? - you pointed out earlier on another thread that you couldn't talk to your parents about embarassing stuff - if you can't talk to your own parents, in my book, there is something wrong.

Honestly, how dare you suggest that there was 'something wrong' with my family upbringing on the grounds that I never discussed such matters with my parents. You have no knowledge whatsoever of my relationship with my parents, and clearly no idea of what sort of person I am.

[SGWilko]

Honestly, how dare you suggest that there was 'something wrong' with my family upbringing on the grounds that I never discussed such matters with my parents. You have no knowledge whatsoever of my relationship with my parents, and clearly no idea of what sort of person I am.

Was I addressing you? I very clearly stated - in my book - because obviously I see things differently. Try not to confuse opinion with fact.