New car news!! [Archive] - Motorsport Forums

EagleEye

31st July 2011, 04:32

Eagle, do you think there will be engine failures next year due to the competition? This is something that Indycar isnt used to having.

I think there could be some failures, especially in practice and qualifiying trim, especially early on. Indycar will be keeping track of the engines and their development to try and ensure they are close in performance. Competition certainly can push some to the limits. I still remember the Honda CART motors blowing plenums sky high during practice.

We are still waiting to hear what the spare car situation will be. Back in the day, you had your primary and spare or "T" car, which was race ready with an engine. When Honda became the loan supplier, they did not want extra engines "sitting" connected to cars, which is now why we have spare cars that sit w/o the engine. I could see us going back to the old spare situation, but that will depend on what the engine suppliers want.

The Honda engine will be built by HPD in CA, while the GM engine will be built by Ilmor (who supply the current Honda engine). Lotus will be supplied by Judd. Each of these groups have had success at various levels, so I think we can expect some good reliability.

jimispeed

31st July 2011, 05:25

So, Cosworth won't get in next year?

anthonyvop

31st July 2011, 06:14

So, Cosworth won't get in next year?

Not unless you wanna write a big check.

Wilf

31st July 2011, 17:42

I think there could be some failures, especially in practice and qualifiying trim, especially early on. Indycar will be keeping track of the engines and their development to try and ensure they are close in performance. Competition certainly can push some to the limits. I still remember the Honda CART motors blowing plenums sky high during practice.

We are still waiting to hear what the spare car situation will be. Back in the day, you had your primary and spare or "T" car, which was race ready with an engine. When Honda became the loan supplier, they did not want extra engines "sitting" connected to cars, which is now why we have spare cars that sit w/o the engine. I could see us going back to the old spare situation, but that will depend on what the engine suppliers want.

The Honda engine will be built by HPD in CA, while the GM engine will be built by Ilmor (who supply the current Honda engine). Lotus will be supplied by Judd. Each of these groups have had success at various levels, so I think we can expect some good reliability.
You might see some failures in qualifying because someone will create a hand granade if they can't make the pace without pushing the limit. The race, I believe will be another story.

DanicaFan

31st July 2011, 21:37

Thanks for the reply Eagle. I thought about that. Because Indycar has been used to engines never failing and their tires being very, very reliable.

Mad_Hatter

31st July 2011, 23:49

Does anyone know if it's a requirement to lease engines? Maybe there could be some outside of the box thinking from a manufacturer and SELL the units...?

Marbles

1st August 2011, 01:22

You might see some failures in qualifying because someone will create a hand granade if they can't make the pace without pushing the limit. The race, I believe will be another story.

Does anyone know if it's a requirement to lease engines? Maybe there could be some outside of the box thinking from a manufacturer and SELL the units...?

I think these are lease only. And with the limits Indycar will set on these engines once their put on a dyno with boost and rev limit restrictions, you won't see any chance for these things to blow up unless the manufacturer itself just can't produce.

I may even suggest that if any of these manufacturers embarrasses itself and has a problem keeping up with the pack that bar may be "lowered" so it has a chance to be competitive.

nigelred5

1st August 2011, 14:02

That looks like the oval package they revealed at Indy. I would assume we'll see the other version of bodywork at MO next week. I can't wait to see and hear the new car on track, but i'll be even more excited when we see and hear the Chevy and Judd engines on track as well. I really miss hearing the different engine notes from indycars.

It's been a long time since any of the MFG's were willing to sell their designs outright for independent builders to service without some pretty tight control.
I wonder of the Honda engine has anything in common with the TT V6 Honda developed for the ALMS?

00steven

1st August 2011, 15:09

I can't wait to hear those engines around Indy again!

nigelred5

1st August 2011, 19:25

Again? when have we heard V6turbos inthe past? ;)

I agree, I look forward to hearing a turbo engine, well, any engine really turning more than 10K

Hoop-98

1st August 2011, 19:40

http://youtu.be/nNDrUIWp09g

bennybigb

1st August 2011, 21:37

We've heard plenty of V6 Turbo engines.

So the IRL is going to manage the competition to ensure equal engines........great......pretty much what I expect from these guys.

nigelred5

2nd August 2011, 12:53

Well, .. duh, Brain Fart.... I wasn't thinking about the pre IRL Buick handgrenades and the old indy lights...... senility 1, me......0. My neighbor even owns one... He has an ex-menards engine. I helped him pull it out of his garage and install it in one of the three Grand nationals he has. IIRC, it's blown.

DBell

8th August 2011, 21:48

The Dallara protoype had it's first day of testing at Mid-Ohio. The couple of pictures they have in the article looks like the car they were showing at Indy.

AUTO RACING - INDYCAR: 2012 Car Breaks Cover At Mid-Ohio (http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/indycar-2012-car-breaks-cover-at-mid-ohio/)

anthonyvop

8th August 2011, 23:58

http://www.racecar-engineering.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/FULL-1.jpg

http://dlstatic.speedtv.com/imageserve/0gQweeSgED0B7/575x459.jpg?fit=scale&background=000000

I am pleasantly surprised. looks much better on track

Marbles

9th August 2011, 00:38

Hoop-98

9th August 2011, 01:27

L/D will be the thing that defines beauty to me, I'll be watching trap speeds.... My guess the airbox/sail panel is to make the rear wing more efficient.

rh

anthonyvop

9th August 2011, 01:49

The airbox is because the prototype is running the Honda N/A 3.5 Ltr V-8.

nigelred5

9th August 2011, 01:52

Still looks like a Dallara Indycar, and by a Dallara, I mean.... well, it's better looking in some ways than the current lawn dart. That's one hell of a front wing. Teh front end looks more like a platypus now. Time for a livery thread.... Oh, wrong forum.. ;)

Change in this case is good. Now lets see what the other companies can come up with!

Ditch the airbox, give it the other sidepods, and It might look pretty good. It's only the first shakedown.....

Hoop-98

9th August 2011, 02:16

The airbox is because the prototype is running the Honda N/A 3.5 Ltr V-8.

Oh really,

'A few minutes later, the roar of the 3.5-liter normally-aspirated V-8 engine as cars exited the appropriately-named Thunder Alley less than 24 hours earlier during the Honda Indy 200 at Mid-Ohio was replaced by the smooth, higher-pitched sound of the 2.2-liter turbocharged Honda V-6 engine that will be among the three (Honda, Chevrolet and Lotus) implemented for the 2012 season."

I couldn't make your stuff up....

Here is one from Tony Cotman

"It's a lighter car, it has more horsepower and it has a lot less drag than the current car, so naturally on the right day it will go quicker and that's something that the fans have to look forward to," Cotman added.

Could we be seeing new track records, probably on Road Courses or Short Tracks, unlikely on 200 MPH plus tracks

Get rid of the airbox?

Get rid of those ugly winglets on jets. so what if they work, I don't like them. :)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0b/Winglets_B737_800_and_AB319.JPG/300px-Winglets_B737_800_and_AB319.JPG

Marbles

9th August 2011, 03:00

I don't see no ugly winglets. :)

http://www.google.ca/url?source=imglanding&ct=img&q=http://files.air-attack.com/MIL/f18sh/f18sh_header.jpg&sa=X&ei=k5RATo6rKuje0QHop7ibBw&ved=0CAcQ8wc&usg=AFQjCNGqlvUrDKD_3bPfLKDJe4Obiugu5g

Chris R

9th August 2011, 03:05

arguh - I just can't love it - they took the worse of the two designs at Indy and I think they beat it with one of Honda's ugly sticks a bit more...... sidepods look different that the one at Indy - I think the Indy one flowed smoothly to the rear tire - this one looks a bit like the cockpit frontal bulbous thingy.....

I know the ones at indy looked better in person than in photos - perhaps this thing is just not photogenic - but if Indycar had any effect on the stock market this would be driving the market down even more...... I have no basis for this but it just doesn't look "right"......

Chris R

9th August 2011, 03:08

It looks like an older LMP2 car and the current Indycar were mashed together and they threw on wings from a current F1 car (not the strong point of those cars) - it just looks like a hodgepodge of race car cliches

Hoop-98

9th August 2011, 03:17

Phoenixent

9th August 2011, 05:24

Dr. Krogshöj

9th August 2011, 07:48

I'm not a mother but I like the looks of that car very much. A lot better than the current Dallara. I think I'll love the performance even more...

Hoop-98

9th August 2011, 18:03

Trailing car turbulence should be our main topic for the new cars raciness, imho

Hoop-98

10th August 2011, 02:24

TO clarify, I would prefer we were discussing the potential to run closer, reduction of the leading trailing car interference

. Also aerodynamic efficiency which is much nicer than horsepower as the speeds approach 180.

I know the goal of this car is to improve in almost every measurable aspect on the performance of the current cars and it's immediate predecessors.

How many of the design aspects are the effects of these goals would be nice to know at some future date, for example, Swift has produced many excellent papers detailing how their designs came to be, what restrictions influenced them.

Here is an excerpt on the last gen Atlantic:

The directive from Champ Car, for the car to be faster in all aspects (straight line, cornering, decreased lap time) would prove to be quite a challenge.

Initial calculations showed that although the new power plant provided a 25% increase in power over the engine previously used in the series, the maximum speed of the vehicle would only increase by approximately 12 MPH, assuming the drag of the vehicle remained the same. Since the new car was larger in several dimensions and with wings of greater chord and span, a drag increase was inevitable. 50% scale wind tunnel models of both the old (014.a) car and the new car were created. The model of the new vehicle being very much a “work in process” as the design progressed.

Both models were evaluated in the Swift wind tunnel and the data received, analyzed and fed back to the group working on finalizing the design. The use of the Swift wind tunnel data in conjunction with lap simulation programs enabled a study to be made incorporating both the aerodynamic changes and the weight increase of the car. Using these tools enabled the Champ Car directive to be achieved.

The Swift 016.a represents an evolution of the successful 008.a and 014a. The Swift 016.a Formula Atlantic racing car is the culmination of a comprehensive customer review of the 008.a and an application of Swift's extensive knowledge of racecar design. Evolutionary in design, the Swift 016.a utilized the Swift wind tunnel to aerodynamically shape the chassis elements and new bodywork.

Application of the state-of-art principles in composite technology and component engineering has increased the durability and performance of the bodywork, driveline, steering, suspension, and cooling systems. Finally, a brand new Swift SG4 gearbox complements the improved chassis. Improvements to the Swift 016.a represent an advanced step and new standard in the evolution of the Toyota Atlantic Series chassis.

The DP01 and now this car are the reversal of the trend of specs forcing the slowing of cars we saw in CART from the late 90's to 2003.

I look forward to the next few years seeing how this works out.

just my 2 cents

EagleEye

10th August 2011, 14:49

The airbox is because the prototype is running the Honda N/A 3.5 Ltr V-8.

The new car ran with the new Honda engine in place, not the existing engine. The existing engine is branded a Honda, built by Ilmor, and Ilmor were not allowed at the shakedown.

The air scoop feeds the single turbo inlet on the car, instead of having a snorkel on the right side. This allows cleaner air flow over the top of the car to the rea, which in turn increases the downforce produced by the new (two-piece split) undertray. There are also some air flow directed to the bell housing which houses the turbo.

Dallara have a done a great job of balancing safety, cost, aero, etc. to produce a car that, in my opinion, looks pretty good. I find it unfair to label it "ugly" or to state that Dallara make ugly cars.

SarahFan

10th August 2011, 15:31

Riddle me this race fans?

If the car doesn't do 240 next May why bother?

What if the current dallara is faster?

Wilf

10th August 2011, 15:47

Riddle me this race fans?

If the car doesn't do 240 next May why bother?

What if the current dallara is faster?

If a car even approaches 240 next May, air dams will be bolted on before it turns another lap.

SarahFan

10th August 2011, 15:54

Then why bother with a whole new design?

NickFalzone

10th August 2011, 16:32

Then why bother with a whole new design?

This is a point worth discussing.

We are talking about racecars. If the next generation is not meant/designed to go faster (more safely) then really, what is the point.

00steven

10th August 2011, 16:38

240 at Indy is too dangerous. There were two fatalities at the speedway in the 90's when speeds were that high.

SarahFan

10th August 2011, 17:13

Were their more fatalities with speeds under 200 or over 200?

Honest question

NickFalzone

10th August 2011, 17:25

This is a point worth discussing.

We are talking about racecars. If the next generation is not meant/designed to go faster (more safely) then really, what is the point.

There are fatalities in auto racing for a myriad of reasons. The point, I think, is that speed improvements should obviously come along with safety improvements. I do think that the safety aspects of IndyCar design have come a long ways since the 90s when 240 was a very dangerous number. Shouldn't "Faster+Safer" be a motto in new car design? If "next-gen" in racecar design these days is basically "safer", then you've lost me as a fan, and probably a vast majority of other fans.

Mark in Oshawa

10th August 2011, 17:57

garyshell

10th August 2011, 18:07

garyshell

10th August 2011, 18:10

Were their more fatalities with speeds under 200 or over 200?

Honest question

Of course there were more under 200, but that is because there were many more miles driven under 200 and more miles driven in clearly unsafe equipment. I think the proper question would be:

Were their more fatalities per mile drive under 200 or over 200?

Gary

Wilf

10th August 2011, 18:21

When the people were dying at speeds pushing 240, no one was wearing a HANS and it was with chassis designed in the 90's originally.

I think this car with modern improvements will be safer at higher speeds.

I do think this car looks better, and since this is but ONE design, that is the key. Other body kits for this chassis will give the car a different look...and different engines will also spread the field a little. Hey...it is something new....and with more power, the drivers will have to work harder. None of this is a bad thing... and THAT my friends is the real point.

There is no doubt the new car provides a good safety cell for the driver, the safer barriers provide another way to reduce damage when contact is with the walls, the Hans device has greatly reduced the number of deaths due to the head continuing while the torso stopped, but what have they done to keep the cars out of the grandstands? Those tunnels still turn into wing bottoms when the attitude changes.

I would love to see a new track record at Indy or any other oval, but when we kill spectators the game is over. Enjoy the speed increases at the road and street circuits. The records for the ovals may be beat by fractions but I don't anticipate a 10 mph increase at any oval.

EagleEye

10th August 2011, 18:24

Safer? Safer for whom, the drivers or the rest of the folks at the track... pit crews, corner workers, spectators? Yes, the chassis improvements have mitigated a lot of the driver safety issues, but have done little or nothing to answer the other group of folks at risk with higher speeds. As I have said many times before, I think the constant chasing the dragon represented by "a new track record" is a fool's errand. I think it touches a chord in only a very small, yet vocal, constituency of Indy car fans. We do not need constantly higher speeds to create good racing or fan excitement.

Gary

The current car certainly has items in place to help the driver and others you mention. New to this car is the wider body work, and rear crash structurewhich are in place to prevent wheel-to-wheel contact and the flying caraccidents that can result. This is better for drivers and those at the track.

Carry over safety features that protect others at the track include teathered wheel hubs, and rear wings. The wheel teathers came about after CARTand the IRL had fan fatalities at Michigan and Charlotte within a year of each other. The wheel stays were also in place to keep awheel in place even if the nut was left off, again to prevent a wheel fromcoming off and potentially getting jettisoned into the stands like what happenedin 1987.

We can hope and pray that the changes will help prevent ANY fatalities, butthere at times things can happen which no one can predict.

garyshell

10th August 2011, 18:36

SarahFan

10th August 2011, 18:46

Ratings and attendance are at all time lows.... Clearly those who opion is wrong .......i
Safer? Safer for whom, the drivers or the rest of the folks at the track... pit crews, corner workers, spectators? Yes, the chassis improvements have mitigated a lot of the driver safety issues, but have done little or nothing to answer the other group of folks at risk with higher speeds. As I have said many times before, I think the constant chasing the dragon represented by "a new track record" is a fool's errand. I think it touches a chord in only a very small, yet vocal, constituency of Indy car fans. We do not need constantly higher speeds to create good racing or fan excitement.

Gary

garyshell

10th August 2011, 18:53

So fan support is based soley on chasing the dragon? Is that what you are saying?

Gary

Wilf

10th August 2011, 19:03

Ratings and attendance are at all time lows.... Clearly those who opion is wrong .......i
Attendance at Indy has been increasing the last 5 for so years and last year was the best since the split.

There is no doubt a new track record would be exciting, but a car, not a wheel, wing or chassis part, in the grandstand would end it all. Briscoe was 25 feet in the air and the new rear bumper would not have come into play.

SarahFan

10th August 2011, 19:25

So fan support is based soley on chasing the dragon? Is that what you are saying?

Gary

No .... I'm suggesting your claim that only a handful of diehard forum posters care claim is clearly false...

The current post split retuned Honda outdated da Lara era has, besides an occasional blip, produced the lowest rated and attended era the sport has ever seen....and not just talking the 500....

That is indisputable .....clearly the silent majority have spoken....

Chris R

10th August 2011, 20:23

A car going into the stands is certainly a possibility - but it is still pretty unlikely. Cars have come close - but it has not happened. The accidents where the car really tears up the fence look dramatic and tragedy is certainly close - but in effect the car and fence did their jobs.....

What I am trying to say is that we cannot make rules based ONLY on the worst case scenario. Yes, it COULD happen - but reasonable measures are in place to drastically limit the possibility and I think the same will be true even with newer, faster cars....

I would point out also, that the new car is lighter - IF it gets airborne it is all the more likely to catch air and dissipate its energy fairly quickly as opposed to a much heavier stock car traveling at the same speed......

Again not saying it won't happen - but I am saying it is an inherent risk to the sport and they have done a pretty good job to ensure it is really unlikely.....

Naturally, the results of a car going into the stands would be terrible - but people still go the sprint car races where cars end up outside of the racing area quite often (relatively speaking) and people have been and are killed by flying race cars....

NickFalzone

10th August 2011, 22:01

I am absolutely not saying I want or wish for any drivers to get injured or certainly killed, however, a big part of the appeal of car racing to the casual fan (ie the majority of fans) is the danger aspect of it. If and when there are no crashes, no drivers putting their butts on the line, car racing as a sport will be effectively finished. Everyone here is aware that car racing in general has lost a bit of popularity in the last decade or two. There are a number of factors for this, but let's not be naive and think that the lack of speed records and risk-taking on track has nothing to do with it.

EagleEye

11th August 2011, 03:10

EagleEye, yes I should have been more clear I was referring to the previous iterations chassis throughout the years. I am a BIG fan of the structures on the new car to prevent wheel to wheel contact. And while the tethers are designed to do this, too many times they have failed. (Not to suggest they be eliminated, mind you.) But again I was really thinking more about the specific effects ot 240+ mph speeds and what those effects have on the saftey of all of those around the track.

Gary

I gotcha, point taken.

I will say the biggest fear of every series leader, teamowner, supplier, track promoter and sponsor is a car going into the stands. The liability insurance each entity must carry is staggering.

When one thinks of the countries that banned racing afterthe 1955 Le Mans disaster, and some of the countries that still outlaw motor racing racing, a similar result could be devastating to all motorsports.

garyshell

11th August 2011, 03:34

And that is precisely what I meant about chasing the dragon. Unlike some folks, I just don't see the constant quest for more speed as a factor in a good racing series.

Gary

garyshell

11th August 2011, 03:51

No .... I'm suggesting your claim that only a handful of diehard forum posters care claim is clearly false...

The current post split retuned Honda outdated da Lara era has, besides an occasional blip, produced the lowest rated and attended era the sport has ever seen....and not just talking the 500....

That is indisputable .....clearly the silent majority have spoken....

Yes they and the not so silent minority have all spoken, I just don't see anything to backup the claim that they have spoken about the lack of speed records.

I am not, as some have suggested, saying we need to remove all the risk from the sport. What I am saying is it has been very exciting in the past when speeds were at 150 (no I am NOT suggesting we go back to that slow pace, just using an example). Back when we had lots less down force, harder tire compounds, the need to brake on all ovals, and cars sliding all four wheels in corners. It gave an illusion of speed, if you will, that transcends the numbers on a stop watch.

Look neither one of us has any real polling data to back up our claims. I wish there was some real data. I do know there is a point when the speeds will out pace the safety of the crowds. I don't know where that number is, nor do I want to find out. That's why I feel so strongly that we should pursue a way to make things exciting for the paying customer without the continued expectation that this year the car will be faster than the last.

Gary

SarahFan

11th August 2011, 04:55

Speed or a random draw form starting position.... Hmmmm...I'll take the speed..

SarahFan

11th August 2011, 05:00

So my question still stands Gary ... If the car isn't going to be faster then why bother ?.... Why not just grandfather in the current car?

jimispeed

11th August 2011, 08:43

Being faster doesn't have to mean top line speed. A quicker more agile car with the right engine formula could get around the track faster. That is what I'm excited to see!

chuck34

11th August 2011, 13:31

Yes they and the not so silent minority have all spoken, I just don't see anything to backup the claim that they have spoken about the lack of speed records.

I am not, as some have suggested, saying we need to remove all the risk from the sport. What I am saying is it has been very exciting in the past when speeds were at 150 (no I am NOT suggesting we go back to that slow pace, just using an example). Back when we had lots less down force, harder tire compounds, the need to brake on all ovals, and cars sliding all four wheels in corners. It gave an illusion of speed, if you will, that transcends the numbers on a stop watch.

Look neither one of us has any real polling data to back up our claims. I wish there was some real data. I do know there is a point when the speeds will out pace the safety of the crowds. I don't know where that number is, nor do I want to find out. That's why I feel so strongly that we should pursue a way to make things exciting for the paying customer without the continued expectation that this year the car will be faster than the last.

Gary

While I see your point and don't necessarily disagree ... Back when they were doing "only" 150mph, that was fast. They were pushing the limits. It was dangerous. It wasn't the illusion of speed it was speed.

FIAT1

11th August 2011, 15:57

New car news is that, there is no news. I think Indycar is missing great opportunity to talk and advertise new car now that hungry fans have expressed so much interest. Testing is going on and no comments how did test go or how new engine is working out including test driver first impression. I'm a fan of inovation and tech. therefore I'm puzzeled why so quiet when this is the biggest news since unification. O yeah, please remove that fake air box. My opinon.

SarahFan

11th August 2011, 16:00

What are the top three differences between the new car and the old car?

New car news is that, there is no news. I think Indycar is missing great opportunity to talk and advertise new car now that hungry fans have expressed so much interest. Testing is going on and no comments how did test go or how new engine is working out including test driver first impression. I'm a fan of inovation and tech. therefore I'm puzzeled why so quiet when this is the biggest news since unification. O yeah, please remove that fake air box. My opinon.

FIAT1

11th August 2011, 16:30

What are the top three differences between the new car and the old car?

One big difference between new and old car is that you have new reason for onother post therefore you can vin a medal for most posts written, and other two you will tell me after you drive new car yourself. Now read again and you will find that opputunity to advertise is to have pictures and story in every car magazine , sport pages in the paper etc. They need help and I think they missing it when they have a chance like this.

garyshell

11th August 2011, 16:36

While I see your point and don't necessarily disagree ... Back when they were doing "only" 150mph, that was fast. They were pushing the limits. It was dangerous. It wasn't the illusion of speed it was speed.

Yes, of course you are right it was speed. All I was trying to get across was that we could keep the same speeds we have today and still make it look as if they are going much faster. Crowds LOVE oversteer. Some if the biggest cheers I remember were watching Montoya and Zanardi with opposite lock in a corner or sawing at the wheel.

Gary

SarahFan

11th August 2011, 16:45

The car mags and sports pages don't care because it's the exact same car.... Simply isn't a story...

And what does my post count have to do with anything? Nothing.... But nice deflection

One big difference between new and old car is that you have new reason for onother post therefore you can vin a medal for most posts written, and other two you will tell me after you drive new car yourself. Now read again and you will find that opputunity to advertise is to have pictures and story in every car magazine , sport pages in the paper etc. They need help and I think they missing it when they have a chance like this.

chuck34

11th August 2011, 17:44

Yes, of course you are right it was speed. All I was trying to get across was that we could keep the same speeds we have today and still make it look as if they are going much faster. Crowds LOVE oversteer. Some if the biggest cheers I remember were watching Montoya and Zanardi with opposite lock in a corner or sawing at the wheel.

Gary

Again, I'm not really disagreeing with you. But oversteer and opposite lock are not the fast ways around the track. They were doing that because they were a bit less than optimal on set-ups. Engineers now (I realized the situation you were talking about wasn't realy that long ago, but tech is much advanced) usually get rid of that, at least on the good cars. My point is that even if you designed cars to oversteer, required lots of opposite lock, etc, the engineers would fairly quickly figure out a way to eliminate it.

Now one thing that might help your point of view would be to go back to bias ply tires. That could make things interesting. :D

chuck34

11th August 2011, 17:50

The car mags and sports pages don't care because it's the exact same car.... Simply isn't a story...

How is it the exact same car?

V8 normally aspirated vs V6 single or twin turbos.

Single manufacturer engines vs multiple

Heavy "old" technology tubs vs new lighter more advanced tubs that reduce weight and increase safety.

Measures taken to address "flight" from interlocking wheels.

More aero coming from the undertray instead of wings, reducing trailing turbulence, increasing passing opportunities.

Different body work at least between ovals and road courses, if not from car to car.

I could go on. But I guess you're right in the sence that a Formula Continental, Formula Atlantic, '96 Reynard, '97 G-Force, DP-01, Ferrari F1, and this new Dallara are all the same. They all have 4 wheels and wings.

Loneranger

11th August 2011, 18:15

How is it the exact same car?

V8 normally aspirated vs V6 single or twin turbos.

Single manufacturer engines vs multiple

Heavy "old" technology tubs vs new lighter more advanced tubs that reduce weight and increase safety.

Measures taken to address "flight" from interlocking wheels.

More aero coming from the undertray instead of wings, reducing trailing turbulence, increasing passing opportunities.

Different body work at least between ovals and road courses, if not from car to car.

I could go on. But I guess you're right in the sence that a Formula Continental, Formula Atlantic, '96 Reynard, '97 G-Force, DP-01, Ferrari F1, and this new Dallara are all the same. They all have 4 wheels and wings.

Just because I take a 2010 Camaro, replace the V8 with a V6, change the steel hood to a carbon fiber one and add stickier tires, and a chin spoiler to it doesn't make it a new car.

It's like Sarahfan says, if the new car isn't going to go faster what is the point?

So you swapped powerplants. Who cares. Is the new one lighter? Is it more powerful? More useable torque?

So there are new body panels. Big whoop. Does it make the car go faster?

Go pull out any number of different cars from the Indy museum and they would not only dust the current car they would also smoke the new one.

This was just one big giant exercise of futility. The new car accomplishes nothing.

SarahFan

11th August 2011, 19:00

here's the thing Chuck.....no one gives a flying F$%k the new undertray will produce less turbulence... heck the engineers will figure out how to produce it elsewhere becuase guess what,,,they dont want other cars following their cars too closely........Im a diehard prototypical indycar fan and i dont care..

this isnt rocket science..... this sport needs something to build on.....a shakedown at mid-ohio: YAWN!......

put Wheldon behind the wheel and go run an unofficial 244 at Fontana..... then instruct every driver, owner, official team member and tire changer to bring up how excited they are to run for a new track record at indy next may...

the times tribune hereld espn NSSN and sports illustrated will take notice......trust me, they dont care that lotus is going to make a new front wing that will essentially look like every other front wing for the past 40 years

chuck34

11th August 2011, 19:13

Just because I take a 2010 Camaro, replace the V8 with a V6, change the steel hood to a carbon fiber one and add stickier tires, and a chin spoiler to it doesn't make it a new car.

But if instead of a 2010 Camaro, you used a prototype to a different design, it would be a new car. This is an all new tub. It may look the same on a quick look, but so would an F1 car to an untrained eye.

It's like Sarahfan says, if the new car isn't going to go faster what is the point?

So the "fans" keep b!tching about using museum/historic cars. Then they get a new one and they b!tch about it being "slow", and this before we even know it's speed. What do you want them to do besides use the DP-01 (which I honestly think would be the only thing to make some people happy).

So you swapped powerplants. Who cares. Is the new one lighter? Is it more powerful? More useable torque?

lighter, check. More powerful, I believe it will be on road courses when they turn up the boost. Useable torque, I haven't seen the dyno sheets so don't know.

So there are new body panels. Big whoop. Does it make the car go faster?

They very well could. We don't know.

Go pull out any number of different cars from the Indy museum and they would not only dust the current car they would also smoke the new one.

Go pull Bill Elliott's car from Talladega '88 and it will go faster than the current NASCAR car. So what?

This was just one big giant exercise of futility. The new car accomplishes nothing.

Some people only see what they want to see. Why not give it a chance before actually b!tching for a change?

chuck34

11th August 2011, 19:21

here's the thing Chuck.....no one gives a flying F$%k the new undertray will produce less turbulence...

The people who want more passing in the sport give a F$%k.

heck the engineers will figure out how to produce it elsewhere becuase guess what,,,they dont want other cars following their cars too closely

Maybe, maybe not. But if Indycar doesn't let them stray too far from the tunnel/wing ratio, I bet they don't. But let's see how things develop before passing judgement.

........Im a diehard prototypical indycar fan and i dont care..

Why not? Is it honestly all about a new record at Indy? I'm with you on that. I would love to see it. But it just isn't going to happen. But we very well may see new track records at road courses, and maybe even some short ovals if thing work out right.

this isnt rocket science..... this sport needs something to build on.....a shakedown at mid-ohio: YAWN!......

What in the world do you expect from them? A shakedown at Mid-Ohio is the first step in a multi-step process. You don't go out and run 250 at Indy the first time the thing hits the track. Back "in the day" when chassis changed every year the first step was always always a shakedown somewhere, probably Firehawk or Phoenix, that didn't have much fanfare. So what do you honestly want them to do?

put Wheldon behind the wheel and go run an unofficial 244 at Fontana..... then instruct every driver, owner, official team member and tire changer to bring up how excited they are to run for a new track record at indy next may...

Fine. Let's go do 244 at Fontana. I've got no problem with that. But you DO NOT DO THAT THE FIRST TIME A CAR HITS THE TRACK!!!!!!!!. That would be utterly stupid, dangerous, and no one in their right minds would agree to that.

the times tribune hereld espn NSSN and sports illustrated will take notice......trust me, they dont care that lotus is going to make a new front wing that will essentially look like every other front wing for the past 40 years

They don't care about anything right now. I honestly think that if you went and did 244 at Fontana or 250 at Indy, you'd pretty much get the same reaction from the main-stream press right now. Hell when the Thrust SSC broke the sound berrier it barely got a blip from most media outlets.

nigelred5

11th August 2011, 20:21

"the Thrust SSC broke the sound berrier" WHAAAAAT? When did this happen???

;)

Loneranger

11th August 2011, 20:36

But if instead of a 2010 Camaro, you used a prototype to a different design, it would be a new car. This is an all new tub. It may look the same on a quick look, but so would an F1 car to an untrained eye.

Most effing fans out there have an untrained eye!

So the "fans" keep b!tching about using museum/historic cars. Then they get a new one and they b!tch about it being "slow", and this before we even know it's speed. What do you want them to do besides use the DP-01 (which I honestly think would be the only thing to make some people happy).

Uncap the hp limits on the current car, open up the design a bit, that would keep me happy. Just give me a faster car period. Don't care if it is new, old, pretty, ugly, doesn't matter. Make it fing fast and hard to drive!!!

Go pull Bill Elliott's car from Talladega '88 and it will go faster than the current NASCAR car. So what?

Have you noticed the declining attendance in NASCAR? ;)

Loneranger

11th August 2011, 20:38

The people who want more passing in the sport give a F$%k.

There is tons of passing in the series right now. When they aren't crashing into each other which has nothing to do with the handling of these cars. Has to do with idiots behind the wheel.

With Barnharts stupid passing zones and passing rules it really doesn't matter how much or how little turbulence comes off these cars when you are forced to leave an inside lane wide open.

chuck34

11th August 2011, 21:02

Most effing fans out there have an untrained eye!

Ok, so what would you have the league do? Deltawing? Closed cockpit? What? Then we'd have a whole 'nother group whining about it isn't an Indycar or something simmilar.

You (and Ken/Sarahfan) seem to somehow think this is just new body work on the old tub. It isn't, it's a whole new chassis. I don't know how much difference would please you guys. Like I said if you put an unpainted, stripped down Ferrari tub next to a new Dallara tub in the same condition you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. But there is a difference.

Uncap the hp limits on the current car

To an extent this is what they are doing. They are going to allow higher boost on the road courses. Or are you proposing a completely uncapped limit? Good luck with that. I'd love to see it too, but this is the real world.

open up the design a bit, that would keep me happy.

Again, this is what they are doing. It may not be at the start of next year, but at some point there will be different aero kits allowed. Why are you not happy about that? Sure it may not happen as soon as we may want, but it is coming (at least that's the plan now).

Just give me a faster car period. Don't care if it is new, old, pretty, ugly, doesn't matter.

But this car has the potential to be faster on road courses and you're still b!tching, why?

Make it fing fast and hard to drive!!!

Who's standard do we measure that against?

Have you noticed the declining attendance in NASCAR? ;)

Yep, my theory involves more about brand identity for that one, not speed reduction (see the rise in NASCAR popularity from the top of speed in '88 to about 2000). And they've also slowed down F1, and pretty much every series out there in the last 20 years or so. The reality of the day and age we live in. If you are advocating a "run what ya brung" series, move the stands back, have the drivers sign their lives away, and let 'er rip, then I'm with you. But that is not reality as it stands.

chuck34

11th August 2011, 21:03

There is tons of passing in the series right now. When they aren't crashing into each other which has nothing to do with the handling of these cars. Has to do with idiots behind the wheel.

With Barnharts stupid passing zones and passing rules it really doesn't matter how much or how little turbulence comes off these cars when you are forced to leave an inside lane wide open.

Wasn't too long ago when I heard lots of whining about no passing or parades. I guess the race at Mid-Ohio must have been so long ago now that we've all forgotten.

I'm with you on the passing zone rule BS

Loneranger

11th August 2011, 21:26

Ok, so what would you have the league do? Deltawing? Closed cockpit? What? Then we'd have a whole 'nother group whining about it isn't an Indycar or something simmilar.

You (and Ken/Sarahfan) seem to somehow think this is just new body work on the old tub. It isn't, it's a whole new chassis. I don't know how much difference would please you guys. Like I said if you put an unpainted, stripped down Ferrari tub next to a new Dallara tub in the same condition you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. But there is a difference.

To an extent this is what they are doing. They are going to allow higher boost on the road courses. Or are you proposing a completely uncapped limit? Good luck with that. I'd love to see it too, but this is the real world.

Again, this is what they are doing. It may not be at the start of next year, but at some point there will be different aero kits allowed. Why are you not happy about that? Sure it may not happen as soon as we may want, but it is coming (at least that's the plan now).

But this car has the potential to be faster on road courses and you're still b!tching, why?

Who's standard do we measure that against?

Yadda, yadda yadda. The new car accomplishes nothing. It is a new design to achieve the same results, or very close to the same results. That could have been accomplished with the DP-01.

What would I have had the league do? Any of a number of options but the simplest one would be to put the 1300 pound new car out on track with a 1000 horsepower. Problem solved!

chuck34

11th August 2011, 21:31

Yadda, yadda yadda. The new car accomplishes nothing. It is a new design to achieve the same results, or very close to the same results. That could have been accomplished with the DP-01.

And the truth slips out. :rolleyes:

What would I have had the league do? Any of a number of options but the simplest one would be to put the 1300 pound new car out on track with a 1000 horsepower. Problem solved!

I'd pay to see that. But it isn't gonna happen. What is your realistic solution?

SarahFan

12th August 2011, 03:13

chuck34

12th August 2011, 12:35

So earlier I was telling my buddy how excited I was for 2012 and the new car.... He. Asked why... So I said it's going to have a newly designed undertray that produces less turbulence..... He said 'than what' and proceeded to punch me in the face

Wow. Just wow. Why are you here. If nothing about Indycar excites you, then why are you here?

People b!tch about the series being "low tech". So the league gives them some different technologies on the car. They b!tch about it not being accessable to the fans.

People b!tch about the series having parades. So the league gives them a car with less turbulence to increase passing opportunities. They b!tch about it not being exciting enough.

People b!tch about the series not using turbos. So the league gives them a car with a turbo. They b!tch it isn't "uncapped".

People b!tch about the speeds being too low. So the league makes a car that can be faster on many tracks. They b!tch it isn't faster.

People b!tch about running museum/historic cars. So the league gives them distinctive looking new cars. They b!tch about the new car being "ugly" or still the same somehow.

People b!tch, people b!tch, people b!tch, people b!tch. And yet no one has even given the new car a chance. Nor has anyone given a REALISTIC alternative.

chuck34

12th August 2011, 12:42

Chris R

12th August 2011, 13:04

I know I'm comming off as defending the league and the car at all costs. I am not. I don't think it's perfect. There are lots of areas for improvement. But many of you are just ridiculous. There is one car that does not have the final body work. We have not seen any other alternative designs, we have not heard how it drives, we have not seen any times, we really don't know anything yet. This was the car's first shake down. Give it a chance, it has many of the features that the "fans" have said they want. That's all I'm saying.

Chuck, You are right - BUT - I think it is probably important for Indycar to hear fan feedback (good and bad) while there is still an opportunity to change the car.... IF they get complacent and this car is the final product I'll be pretty disappointed but there is still plenty of room to impress.....

I think what a few of the guys are saying (and I also do not disagree with this) - is that we are putting too much stock in the new car. In the big scheme of things is is an evolution, not a revolution. The die has already been cast that the new car will NOT redefine the sport - it can only offer an incremental improvement - which is fine but it is not likely to change the path of the sport dramatically...

Champcar pretty much did the same thing (made the same mistake??) with the DP-01 - it was nice but really it was not much of a departure from the Lola - I think they played it too conservatively and Indycar appears to be headed down the same path.....

That being said, as long as the new car is an incremental improvement and it helps build the sport a little more , it will serve its purpose.... If we are looking for it to double the fan base, it is not going to happen...

SarahFan

12th August 2011, 13:16

"Indycar! We got less turbulence!"

That's catchy ......

chuck34

12th August 2011, 14:18

"Indycar! We got less turbulence!"

That's catchy ......

There is more to it than that. But you are too obtuse to open your eyes. You just want to b!tch. Go ahead. If you don't want to have a rational conversation I'm done with you.

chuck34

12th August 2011, 14:24

Chuck, You are right - BUT - I think it is probably important for Indycar to hear fan feedback (good and bad) while there is still an opportunity to change the car.... IF they get complacent and this car is the final product I'll be pretty disappointed but there is still plenty of room to impress.....

I think what a few of the guys are saying (and I also do not disagree with this) - is that we are putting too much stock in the new car. In the big scheme of things is is an evolution, not a revolution. The die has already been cast that the new car will NOT redefine the sport - it can only offer an incremental improvement - which is fine but it is not likely to change the path of the sport dramatically...

Champcar pretty much did the same thing (made the same mistake??) with the DP-01 - it was nice but really it was not much of a departure from the Lola - I think they played it too conservatively and Indycar appears to be headed down the same path.....

That being said, as long as the new car is an incremental improvement and it helps build the sport a little more , it will serve its purpose.... If we are looking for it to double the fan base, it is not going to happen...

What else is there other than incremental, evolutionary improvements? Try to have a revolutional approach and there will be many cries of "that's not IndyCar", etc. Again what other approach would you have? Normally aspirated engines to turbo charged ones open to having single or twin turbos, different body kits vs spec chassis, etc. That isn't enough of a change for you? What other changes would you advocate for that would still be within the character of an IndyCar?

It isn't perfect, but I think it's about the best we could hope for at this point. And no we shouldn't pin all our hopes on having a new car.

SarahFan

12th August 2011, 16:24

chuck34

12th August 2011, 16:33

Bottom line chuck is that without a new track record at Indy the entire point of a new car is futile......all the new tweaks won't mean a thing....

And yes... At this point we don't know whether it will or not....but indications are it won't be faster at the speedway.... And while you and I and hoop and Gary might be stoked about a track record at long beach 99.999 percent of the folks won't know or don't care

Racing... Especially Indycar that has the I500 as it's backbone.... It's very lifeblood is built on speed....that's the only rational point worth discussing

IMO of coarse

Well then we need to pack up and go home now. Stop wasting everyone's time and money. Because there will NOT be a new track record at Indy in the near future. I hope I'm wrong because I'd love to see it. But it just ain't gonna happen. So if that's the only thing that drives you, I don't know what to tell you.

When was the last time there was a new track record at Monaco? Doesn't seem to hurt F1 too much. How about the last time there was a new track record at Daytona? Didn't hurt them from at least '88 to '00. There is more to life than records, as much as you and I, and many others would like to see them. It's not the end-all-be-all of the series.

SarahFan

12th August 2011, 16:41

F1 and NASCAR don't have the i500 as it's focal point...major distinction

garyshell

12th August 2011, 16:42

"Indycar! We got less turbulence!"

That's catchy ......

What's YOUR solution that has a realistic chance of being implemented?

Gary

SarahFan

12th August 2011, 16:44

At this post point post split era etc the sport of Indycar needs a platform to build On.... And less turbulence isn't it

EagleEye

12th August 2011, 16:45

Wow, talk about a buzz kill going on here~!

I’ll try to fill in the blanks that will hopefully make a little sense, and stop the crazy arguments here.

Just because a car is new, does not mean it is FASTER! Case in point, Audi recently replaced its 360HP V8, with a supercharged 330HP V6 in the S4/S5 line of cars. The new V6 car is slower, yet costs the same as the V8 it replaced, and might be quicker. The point here is there are multiple factors to consider in designing and building a new car, and speed is just one component. In Audi’s case they gave up HP in order to get better fuel economy.

So what was the design criteria for the new car? I think this should be stated, prior to having elongated arguments.

The design criteria was based on the following (not in order):

The car has some innovative safety features, that include the rear crash structure, body work extended farther out to prevent wheel-wheel contact, driver leg support and crash cell, in addition to the teathers, and attenuator from the previous car. The anti-stall system the cars will have should make it safer for track workers, as the engine should keep running when a driver spins, and they should be able to get underway on their own. Increased size in the tub allows for more seat material and the head rest restraint has increased a bit as well. The car has some very innovative side impact and penetration protections as well.

-Lower cost to purchase

This was a big factor. Why not go with eight speed V12 engines, since they would be faster? Well, as you increase parts, you increase price. The V6 turbo configuration is a great solution to preserve cost on the engine side. As the series decides to provide more or less power, you simply dial up or dial down the boost. You could run the same engine block foryears, with slight changes from time to time, while maintaining cost. A six speed was chosen, instead of seven speed gearbox. The number of aero bits, winglets, wing elements was reduced. The front wing on ovals can only be adjusted as a whole, not left or right adjustments, again in the name of cost. The number of suspension options was reduced.

I still think they need to have only one body kit next year,and I believe it is being discussed.

-Lower cost to maintain and operate

Sometimes, something has a higher initial price, but saves over the long hall. The new car will use carbon fiber brake rotors, which while more expensive can last longer than the current steel rotors. They also reduce the unsprung weigtht and rotating mass. The new under tray is a split floor. So, if you crash the right side of the car, you only replace the right side under tray. Same with some of the body panels. The choice of gear ratios, wings, and other items have also been reduced. Reducing the operating costs was one of the biggest goals, because the savings are cumulative (from year 1, 2, and so on). Dallara and other manufacturers have done agreat job balancing performance with cost reduction. The revised front suspension geometry to pushrod (from pull rod), allows easier service for the front springs and shocks.

In most areas, only certain manufacturers are approved, which lowers costs (ie, Bembo supplies the brakes for all teams, instead of just a few, which would create higher piece prices)

-Stronger

The front wing, rear crash structure and body work, all seem to be in place so the cars could handle rubbing and scrapping each other better. The goal was to allow some close quarter racing, without pieces flying off at the slights hint of contact. This should also prevent yellows for debris.

-Lighter

Reducing the mass of the car was one of the goals, in order to increase acceleration. Speed is nice,but old F=ma is key. By reducing the mass, the force required to accelerate the car is less. And, if they produce the same amount of HP(or more) the accelerations will be quicker. An F1 car does not have the top speed of an Indycar, but it is much quicker as it accelerates and decelerates.

-Capable of operating at all venues (Superspeedway, Roadcourse, Short oval, Street course)

‘Nuff said. No other series operates on the variety of tracks the Indycar series visits. In reality, the entire car is a compromise since it is built for such a variety of circuits.

-Suitable sponsor placement areas

In addition to cleaning up the air flow around the car, the airscoop has been retained to provide a bigger advertising area. Some of the lines of the car are in place to better allow sponsorship and logos to be viewed. Certainly a tricky part of the design, but you have to keep those who pay the bills happy!

-New Technologies

Going back to bigger tunnels, which produce the bulk of the down force, should allow for closer racing. There are some new bits, most in the electronics area, that are very impressive especially given the cost restraints.

So, if everyone could just take a big breath, exhale, and enjoy the rest of the season and next year’s new car!

SarahFan

12th August 2011, 16:49

What's YOUR solution that has a realistic chance of being implemented?

Gary

Did I not lay it out earlier?

At some point the sport either embraces what's it's about at it's core or it continues to wallow in relative obscurity

garyshell

12th August 2011, 16:50

F1 and NASCAR don't have the i500 as it's focal point...major distinction

Who said that they did? Take the case of NASCAR, it has the Daytona 500 as its focal point and no one seems to think a "new track record" is essential there for the entire NASCAR series to survive. And before you trot out their declining attendance, they have a lot of other issues all well documented, but not once has record speeds at Daytona been mentioned as a root cause.

This one trick pony of a new track record every year at Indy is the only way to save the series ignores the fact that there are many OTHER races on the schedule each year. The series is every bit as dependent on their success to survive. Without the other races there is no financial model by which the series or the teams for that matter can survive.

Gary

garyshell

12th August 2011, 16:58

Did I not lay it out earlier?

At some point the sport either embraces what's it's about at it's core or it continues to wallow in relative obscurity

What is it "about"? A new track record every year at ONE out all of the races they run? The Bonneville Salt Flats speed weeks is about a new track record each time a competitor runs, that is their core. The core of Indycar is racing. Speed records are not racing, they are engineering exercises. The new track records are a side show on one day in May each year. Does the average fan, who are the bread & butter not to mention the money source for the series, remember the record holder from one year to the next, or do they remember who won the race. I don't recall the record holder being interviewed after the race, making the rounds of the late night talk shows, or being featured in magazine articles.

Gary

SarahFan

12th August 2011, 17:28

How you a miss a point by such a wide margin is beyond me

Hoop-98

12th August 2011, 17:33

So Ken, suppose we break all time track records at 3/4 of the tracks, is that good?

SarahFan

12th August 2011, 17:34

Let's be perfectly clear .... The daytona500 is not the series focal point in anywhere near the fashion the I500 is too indycars ... That's a fact

Also fact ... At this point in the sports evolution no one knows the winner or the track record holder ..

And let me be perfectly clear ... I'm not poopooing all the EE you and chuck are laying out about the new car ... I get it ... And as a CURRENT fan I understand and appreciate it

But not a single one of those items the EE laid out is going to attract a new fan

IMO of coarse

SarahFan

12th August 2011, 17:36

So Ken, suppose we break all time track records at 3/4 of the tracks, is that good?

Would Indy be one of them?

Again.... I appreciate your interst in the new car and all that comes alOng with it..... Does your next door neighbor car that the chassis is 100lbs lighter?

Hoop-98

12th August 2011, 18:00

Nope, not at Indy, and he doesn't care what they qualify at.
There is no statistical correlation between Indy Pole Speed and popularity.
I know ratings and attendance are down, so how many factors have changed beside your holy grail, I'll help you, hundreds.
We have had cycles of decreasing speeds throughout the history of the Indy 500 with growing popularity at the same time.

EagleEye

12th August 2011, 18:04

But not a single one of those items the EE laid out is going to attract a new fan

IMO of coarse

The ability for the car to drive fast, on a variety of tracks is and has been a big factor in attracking fans.

CART (yes, the good ole days) grew its fan base due to the diversity of tracks we raced on. The IRL tried the oval route-FAIL!, and Champcar tried the road course route-FAIL!

The improved racing (and i think this year for teh most part has been tremendous) will also attract fans. Seeing open wheel cars bang and bump, without flying into the stands or creating yellow after yellow everytime a little piece falls off, will also help teh show.

The new car also has a look, love it or hate it, that is polarizing. I remember back in the day, when Howard Cosell was both the most liked and least liked football announcer! It is good news, and will help.

Hopefully GM will promote the series as well as Honda has done, and they will need to as Firestone is going away (the promotion part).

Daniel

12th August 2011, 18:07

Get rid of those ugly winglets on jets. so what if they work, I don't like them. :)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0b/Winglets_B737_800_and_AB319.JPG/300px-Winglets_B737_800_and_AB319.JPG

Umm you do realise why aircraft and race cars have winglets right? It's not for looks.

DBell

12th August 2011, 18:39

Umm you do realise why aircraft and race cars have winglets right? It's not for looks.

I'm pretty sure that was sarcasm from Hoop.

SarahFan

12th August 2011, 19:00

If you were developing a race series from scratch with the i500 as it's focal point would your first step be speed or a strong front wing?

Some of you need to take a step back a remember your already fans .. Diehards in fact... You have a fundamental Intrest and understanding of the new car .. It's tweaks nuances etc...

I just explained this discussion to my buddy ( seriously this time) ... He's fundamentally a stick and ball guy .. But has been to LB and Fontana with me...

His comment ... 'the new car sounds like a double decaf shot of espresso !'

SarahFan

12th August 2011, 19:06

EE you make my point

Cart built a sport and fan base with the I500 as it's focal point as well as the rest you mention ... Without it it went out of biz twice....

nigelred5

12th August 2011, 19:23

Umm you do realise why aircraft and race cars have winglets right? It's not for looks.

Sponsor logos!!! ;) We know why they are there aerodynamically, however very few aircraft since the Wright Brothers had winglets or endplates until VERY recently. They are not truly necessary, but they do make hte aerodynamics far better.

chuck34

12th August 2011, 20:03

Ken do you honestly think that the ONLY way to grow the sport is to have a new record at Indy?

00steven

12th August 2011, 20:11

The ability for the car to drive fast, on a variety of tracks is and has been a big factor in attracking fans.

CART (yes, the good ole days) grew its fan base due to the diversity of tracks we raced on. The IRL tried the oval route-FAIL!, and Champcar tried the road course route-FAIL!

The improved racing (and i think this year for teh most part has been tremendous) will also attract fans. Seeing open wheel cars bang and bump, without flying into the stands or creating yellow after yellow everytime a little piece falls off, will also help teh show.

The new car also has a look, love it or hate it, that is polarizing. I remember back in the day, when Howard Cosell was both the most liked and least liked football announcer! It is good news, and will help.

Hopefully GM will promote the series as well as Honda has done, and they will need to as Firestone is going away (the promotion part).

I completely agree with all you said.

Diversity in the schedule is huge, the competition has been the best in a decade, and a new look to the car and a new engine package creates buzz. All that Inycar needs for the future development of the sport.

NickFalzone

12th August 2011, 20:24

Innovation (and thus novelty) is a HUGE part of IndyCar's past, and is a key reason imo why it is not thrilling the crowds at present. Record-breaking is a key part of innovation. What IndyCar should mean to casual and non-fans is cutting-edge racing at dangerous speeds with some of the greatest drivers in the world. I believe that guys like Franchitti, Power, Dixon, Bourdais, Sato, etc. are all valuable assets to the series and many of them truly are the "best of the best". Also, the racing is still fairly dangerous. However, the cutting-edge aspects I am referring to are completely lost. We need to be hearing rumors about "KV getting a new tuned up Lotus V6 by Long Beach, that may be faster than the competition" or "Andretti Autosport trying a new body kit that they think will get them up front at Indy". You know, people actually talking about the CARS and the technology, not just who wrecked who in two-wide restart last week. NASCAR can get away without this sort of thing, but what makes IndyCar racing unique is that it is more on the cutting-edge technology-wise... Except, nowadays it isn't, or at least it isn't unless you're hiding in Penske's garage on a computer somewhere.

SarahFan

13th August 2011, 00:09

Ken do you honestly think that the ONLY way to grow the sport is to have a new record at Indy?

No.... Read what I have actually written

It's logical first step towards rebranding a sport that desperately needs it

Indycar: check out our stiff front wing! Just doesn't carry much weight imo

jimispeed

13th August 2011, 08:17

CORSA TV: IndyCar 2012 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmsI2f0LfCE)

Nice camera views! But please no airbox!! Save the hoop!!

jimispeed

13th August 2011, 08:31

And why isn't there a spy out there posting videos similar to this one!

Champ Car Panoz DP-01 testing at Sebring 1 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXQ1Sk3ZfvM)

I loved seeing these surface!!

fan-veteran

13th August 2011, 09:53

I do not like the new car.

indycool

13th August 2011, 11:59

Although some on the forum and the author of this article seem to agree that CART seemed to INVENT the rear-engine Indy car, CART just accomplished a lot in progressive technology, stability, safety and the like as those before it progressed through the years. The 2012 Dallara Indy car seemingly plays its part to continue that historical progression. To the general fan or TV viewer, he/she is likely to see a rear-engine car with front and rear wings at speed, just like previous editions of Indy cars have been, and may notice a few "tweaks." To THAT fan, the transformation will not be particularly radical. To us, it will be. This article provides a good explanation and comparison of what we're using and what we will use next year.

AUTO RACING - INDYCAR: Inside The 2012 Dallara (http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/indycar-inside-the-2012-dallara/P3#comments)

DBell

14th August 2011, 03:42

Spec Dallara chassis next year.

AUTO RACING - INDYCAR: Aero Kits Officially On Hold Until 2013 (http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/indycar-aero-kits-officially-on-hold-until-2013/)

Marbles

14th August 2011, 04:09

Pffft... 3 years we have waited for this and they act like they haven't had the time to prepare for it. Andretti's just happy he can afford to run a crap 4 car team again... "It's not about quality, it's about quantity!" Foyt has never had the bucks to run a competitive team except for when everyone else was just as bust as he was in the early Double A IRL years.

Well, once again Indycar has managed to pretty much appease everyone except for the fan.

Congrats!

SarahFan

14th August 2011, 06:34

Is it true no p2p next year?....

Im also hearing the car will not be less weight when the final product gets delivered ... Anyone else hearing that?

Hoop-98

14th August 2011, 17:45

No P2P, I don't think anyone is suggesting it won't be lighter, in RC trim the brakes and engine are over 100 pounds lighter.

We won't really know where this car stands until spring testing.

The good, lighter to some degree, more powerful to some degree, substantially less drag and more downforce. 45 per cent cheaper, easier maintenance and crash repair.

The bad, all the unknowns.

When we first tested the Dallara on a RC it was about 10 seconds slower than it eventually ran and it was just a slightly modified chassis.

We can all guess and make projections, until the facts play out next year, it is pretty clear those guesses will primarily be hope for failure, hope for success, determined more by past allegiance than any fact.

rh

shazbot

15th August 2011, 12:55

When was IndyCar/CART racing most popular and why? I think the answers to many of these questions can be found here.

nigelred5

15th August 2011, 14:17

When was IndyCar/CART racing most popular and why? I think the answers to many of these questions can be found here.

Wow man, do you want a bigger boat? That's one hell of a bait you threw out there...... ;)

jimispeed

23rd August 2011, 11:17

Mario Andretti Unplugged Part 1 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZL7VmjyPH4)

â–º Mario Andretti Unplugged Part 2 (http://motor-sport.tv/video/indycar/-mario-andretti-unplugged-part-2/)

Nice perspective from a legend of racing. Looking forward to watching the ball roll.

Mad_Hatter

1st September 2011, 22:46

2012 dallara-honda audio available here. (http://indycarbuzz.com/) Top of the page.

Sounds pretty ham good...

nigelred5

2nd September 2011, 00:19

Video

New Indy Car 2012 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=-drfbfmuj70)

FIAT1

2nd September 2011, 14:46

Sounds great. They should have this video on every pre race show and start doing comercials with it.

jimispeed

2nd September 2011, 21:55

Why are the rpms so frick'n low? Not what I was expecting! Why is the car going the opposite direction? Are they gonna throw a few of those in the mix? :confused: :(

Mad_Hatter

6th September 2011, 03:03

Word on the 'net is that there have been engine problems jimi. Even if there aren't any supposed reliabilty issues, things are still in the testing phase...

On another note, apparently J-Dampers (http://www.racecar-engineering.com/articles/technology/indycar-2012-technology-part-2-suspension/) are Indycar bound. They were the topic of protests and the standard f1 political games 2 or 3 years ago.

Mad_Hatter

6th September 2011, 03:14

And yet on another note, Lotus appears more likely to be missing come St. Pete 2012.

bad form Lotus... (http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/indycar-high-anxiety-over-2012-engine-supply/) Are the cracks in their expansion plans becoming painfully obvious?

jimispeed

6th September 2011, 06:04

Let's hope it all comes together!

call_me_andrew

6th September 2011, 06:16

Why is the car going the opposite direction? Are they gonna throw a few of those in the mix? :confused: :(

Road course!

DBell

6th September 2011, 14:13

Why are the rpms so frick'n low? Not what I was expecting! Why is the car going the opposite direction? Are they gonna throw a few of those in the mix? :confused: :(

They were running on the old F1 road course that runs the opposite direction of the oval and the Moto GP road course.

anthonyvop

6th September 2011, 15:23

Video

New Indy Car 2012 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=-drfbfmuj70)

The fact that their is no "official" on-track video of the car is troubling. Why the secrecy? It is a spec chassis. No need to hide it from teams,

Marbles

7th September 2011, 02:04

The fact that their is no "official" on-track video of the car is troubling. Why the secrecy? It is a spec chassis. No need to hide it from teams,

This may be official. It looks professionally amateurish. A single Youtube post that looks like shakeycam cellphone footage and the amateur videographer took the time to do a nice title and date intro in software. Teaser? Hmmm...

jimispeed

7th September 2011, 05:23

Well, I hope everything/everyone comes together, I hope everyone buys in, I hope it's badass and I hope the cars lose the bunghole and gain the sleek look of a hoop! I look forward to it!!

Jag_Warrior

7th September 2011, 17:58

numanoid

8th September 2011, 16:29

I got my Vegas tickets and schedule a few days ago and apparently they are doing a demo of the car on Saturday. Time is TBD.

Mad_Hatter

9th September 2011, 03:23

No problem Jag....

Lotus is still in according to Marshall Pruett.

Chris R

13th September 2011, 12:49

FWIW - with the signing of ???? to conquest for the Motegi race they are showing some pictures of the Formula Nippon car - very nice - more along the line of what I had hoped for in the "new look" - not perfect mind you - but nice.....

nigelred5

13th September 2011, 16:43

Had they chosen Swift we could have been..... Dallara has the market cornered on ugly.

Mad_Hatter

26th September 2011, 23:08

M Pruett (http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/indycar-progress-being-made-on-2012-engine-contracts/) provides further confirmation that Lotus will be around come race day 2012. He provides an interesting overview on the outlook for next year:

CONFIRMED
1. A.J. Foyt Racing: Honda, 1-2 cars.
2. Andretti Autosport: Chevrolet, 3-4 cars.
3. Ganassi Racing/Target Chip Ganassi Racing: Honda, 4 cars.
4. Penske Racing: Chevrolet, 3 cars.
5. Sam Schmidt Motorsports: Honda, 1-2 cars.
KNOWN/BELIEVED TO BE COMPLETED
1. HVM Racing: Lotus, 1-2 cars.
2. KV Racing Technology: Chevrolet, 2-3 cars.
3. Newman/Haas Racing: Honda, 2 cars.
4. Panther Racing: Chevrolet, 1-2 cars.
IN NEGOTIATIONS
1. Bryan Herta Autosport: 1 car.
2. Conquest Racing: 1-2 cars.
3. Dale Coyne Racing: 2 cars.
4. Dragon Racing: 1 car.
5. Dreyer & Reinbold Racing: 2-3 cars.
6. Michael Shank Racing: 1 car.
7. Rahal Letterman Lanigan: 1 car.
8. Sarah Fisher Racing: 1 car.

Brembo is set to supply the brakes.

http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1066564_brembo-wins-indycar-brakes-contract

http://www.insideline.com/car-news/brembo-to-supply-brakes-for-2012-indycar.html

jimispeed

27th September 2011, 08:24

Pretty vague, but it's something!

Stuck with Dan - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PfFyHSEc3M)

Keep up the info as you find it guys/girls, and get out your video, camera etc....

DBell

27th September 2011, 14:32

Here is Marshall Pruett's article on Dan's opinion on the new car so far.

AUTO RACING - INDYCAR: It (http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/indycar-its-a-fun-car-encourages-you-to-attack-wheldon)

I think they way it looks now is what it will look like next year. How fast it is and how it races is the most important thing, but when I look at it, I can't help but think it's the Pontiac Aztec of race cars.

anthonyvop

27th September 2011, 15:23

I knew I had seen the car before

http://www.shelbyforums.com/forums/attachments/shelby-month/1207d1192758957-1990-shelby-can-am-bobyjo-10-2006-059-homestead-may-2005.jpg

http://resources2.news.com.au/images/2011/09/23/1226144/449874-indycar-2012.jpg

SarahFan

27th September 2011, 19:50

Take a long look at the photo above of the new car from the front...

Focus on the raised bulky sidepod(s)

Now imagine Simonas fire last season.... And picture the safety crew attempting to extract a racer

Maybe it's just me but that appears to be a major safety concern

jwhite9185

27th September 2011, 20:01

I think that they are only raised towards the rear, around the wheels so they should be able to get to the driver if they need to.

SarahFan

27th September 2011, 20:08

Your correct ...

Chris R

27th September 2011, 21:58

The more I see different angles etc. of this car, the less I like it (and I have not been much of a fan before).... The sidepods are just plain UGLY and awkward looking.... The airbox is huge and ungainly - especially in a turbo. The rest seems very workable - I think it'll look better with speedway wings but the airbox and sidepods really need to go....

Unfortunately, as someone earlier said - this is probably pretty much it..... I'd say the Indycar dog is running scared right now....

Chris R

27th September 2011, 21:59

SarahFan

28th September 2011, 00:53

There was a pic of very similar car with that 'wedge' lOok floating arOund when the deltawing talk first started up.... I liked the lOok..... Whether it's racy who knows

Mad_Hatter

28th September 2011, 01:39

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6003/6188997155_a0c57fdbfb.jpg

It's less butt-ugly from this angle...

IICS flickr (http://www.flickr.com/photos/izodindycar/sets/72157627766194906/with/6188997155/)

NickFalzone

28th September 2011, 02:03

shazbot

28th September 2011, 02:47

Redfern wins in Zip Formula (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/derek.redfern/news7.htm) Hmmmmmm, now we know the source of the inspiration for this pile of poop.

Chris R

28th September 2011, 03:00

Just saw this on IndyCar's youtube channel. The car looks relatively sleek to me, and in these short shots it looks pretty agile and quick. Still a bit too long/wide for my taste, and the side angle isn't particularly appealing, but this new footage actually improved my opinion of it. You know, for all the crap everyone says, the new car does look better than the old one. That's at least something...

The current car is really only really bad at the front of the cockpit and the nose is a bit pointy - this thing is bad everywhere else....

I do agree, it looks better from a lower angle - lots of gopher cam shots in 2012 :p :

jimispeed

28th September 2011, 04:25

All of this testing with "The Bunghole", makes me think they're not getting rid of it!

That is a disgrace!!!!!

Dr. Krogshöj

28th September 2011, 10:36

All of this testing with "The Bunghole", makes me think they're not getting rid of it!

That is a disgrace!!!!!

What is the bunghole? The bit on the engine cover? I personally don't mind it, but the sidepods and the rear bumpers look ugly. Of course, it's more important that the car is safe, fast and races well.

Chris R

28th September 2011, 13:52

What is the bunghole? The bit on the engine cover? I personally don't mind it, but the sidepods and the rear bumpers look ugly. Of course, it's more important that the car is safe, fast and races well.

Us hardcore fans can keep telling ourselves that (and I really have been until this latest set of photos) - but there is absolutely no excuse for it not to be safe, fast, racy AND at least NOT ugly. They made the specifications, controlled the process and it is the only car. They did not have to choose to allow this aesthetic abomination to be THE car......

My growing concern is that if they are this clueless as to how important it is for this car to be "not ugly" (not necessarily universally loved) how clueless are they about everything else??? This is the keystone of the entire Indycar product and as Anthony likes to point out, they have a product problem that this is only going to make worse

My objection to this car is not that I am underwhelmed - it is fundamentally a sports "turn-off", it is so bad. I consider myself to be pretty easygoing on things like this - there is a really big range of what I would consider acceptable - if not a "home run" - and I am ver inclined to give Indycar the benefit of the doubt... I am thinking that if someone like me find this thing so bad, they have problem.....

downtowndeco

28th September 2011, 16:03

SoCalPVguy

28th September 2011, 16:15

Tell me again what is the purpose of the tall 'air box' scoop on a turbocharged engine.

SarahFan

28th September 2011, 16:15

Rumors are it's not going to be lighter when it actually gets delivered.....will it set a new track record at Indy? If not it's just not faster...

And how do design a car to be racier?

Chris R

28th September 2011, 19:05

The car will be safer than the old car. It will be faster than the old car. I believe they designed it to be "racier" than the old car in that you will able to pass.

Jesus Christ you guys sounds like a bunch of teenage girls watching Jersey Shore b********* about whether the sequins on a pair of jeans should be gold or silver.

Really, stop it already, you're embarassing yourselves as fans. Let them get a couple dozen of these on the track at the same time & get a few races under their belts & then see how you feel about the car.

I hear you - but the thing is - they have absolute control over this car - if this car had evolved to look the way it does due to competition you could at least appreciate the function and pedigree. In this case, there is no good excuse for it to be so unattractive - it can easily be all the things you said and still look half decent (again - it is not like it is underwhelming - it is hideous)....... Obviously, I'll see wait it does and if it produces the best racing ever I'll suck it up and find the inner beauty - but right now if some fan outcry gets them to pretty it up a little, I am all for fan outcry.....

I understand and support the concept of better and safer racing but given that this is a spec car, safer and racier does not have to be ungainly and ill-proportioned. Furthermore, it is in the best interest of the series to do everything they can to flatter the car in these early pictures - I am assuming someone took the time to optimize the paint and what not to flatter the car - and if they did not - shame on them - that is basic marketing 101.... Theoretically, this should be as pretty as the car can look in these photos..... The Interscope "batmobile" looked similar to this in many ways but boy they painted that car and placed the decals to flatter it nicely - it wouldn't take a lot of effort and it is alarming that it appears they might not even have done that.....

FIAT1

28th September 2011, 19:26

Rumors are it's not going to be lighter when it actually gets delivered.....will it set a new track record at Indy? If not it's just not faster...

And how do design a car to be racier?

Only way to make a car racier is a good racer. Take red bull in F1 for example, or target reynard with Zanardi and Montoya. Good racer will make even bad car better, take Bordais who is doing great job with minor team and car. In Andretti car I believe he would be contender for top four or better. My opinion.

FIAT1

28th September 2011, 19:44

Tell me again what is the purpose of the tall 'air box' scoop on a turbocharged engine.

Air box on turbo engine is BBs touch , as hi did not have anything else or smart for special comity meeting when new car was planed. My hope is when teams have their trim design in 2013 that car will look much better.

anthonyvop

28th September 2011, 19:57

My hope is when teams have their trim design in 2013 that car will look much better.

Do you really think that will happen?

anthonyvop

28th September 2011, 20:01

What it will look like from the Grandstands

http://indycar.cdn.racersites.com/prod/photos/340187/HOME.jpg

FIAT1

28th September 2011, 20:09

Do you really think that will happen?

Little better?

Chris R

28th September 2011, 20:23

What it will look like from the Grandstands

http://indycar.cdn.racersites.com/prod/photos/340187/HOME.jpg

If they just got rid of the airbox and reduced the size of /streamlined the massive humps in front of the wheels it would be ok from that angle.....

I am also thinking black is not a great color on this car - the lack of contrast with the tires really muddies the lines a bit.....

Jag_Warrior

28th September 2011, 20:29

Tell me again what is the purpose of the tall 'air box' scoop on a turbocharged engine.

It draws your eyes up... away from the rest of the car.

jwhite9185

28th September 2011, 20:38

I was under the impression that the current engine is being used as the new ones aren't ready yet - hence the air box.

DBell

28th September 2011, 21:57

I was under the impression that the current engine is being used as the new ones aren't ready yet - hence the air box.

No, it's got the new V6 Honda turbo in it. I think the air box is there because someone in IndyCar wanted to give a styling cue to the old Dallara for the long time IRL faithful and so it didn't look like it belonged to the CART/CC lineage. After seeing the rest of the car, as a long time CART fan, I must say thank you. :p :

Lousada

28th September 2011, 22:52

This is so obviously a car designed by a comittee. One half wanted open wheels, the other half wanted closed wheels, so they just did both. One guy designed the bumpers, another the sidepods and a third the nose. But then the fourth guy wanted to design something, so they had to put an airbox on for him.
I'm not a fan.

NickFalzone

29th September 2011, 01:13

It's an ugly design, there's no getting around that. I like the rear end and a few pieces on the side but for the most part it is not eye-catching other than as weird/ugly. On the other hand, performance is more important and that is to be determined. Randy Bernard is finally on twitter and has been answering a bunch of fan questions today, some promising responses in there including record breaking speeds at IMS:

Twitter (http://twitter.com/#!/RBINDYCAR)

Marbles

29th September 2011, 02:52

I thought i may have been a bit harsh in my original assessment of the cars beauty butt... ugly it is in this grandstand shot. I'm not an aerodynamicist or a sculpture but surely this design is where form and function lie in a tangled heap on the floor.

maximilian

29th September 2011, 03:48

2826

DBell

30th September 2011, 01:39

I hear you - but the thing is - they have absolute control over this car - if this car had evolved to look the way it does due to competition you could at least appreciate the function and pedigree. In this case, there is no good excuse for it to be so unattractive - it can easily be all the things you said and still look half decent (again - it is not like it is underwhelming - it is hideous)....... Obviously, I'll see wait it does and if it produces the best racing ever I'll suck it up and find the inner beauty - but right now if some fan outcry gets them to pretty it up a little, I am all for fan outcry.....

I understand and support the concept of better and safer racing but given that this is a spec car, safer and racier does not have to be ungainly and ill-proportioned. Furthermore, it is in the best interest of the series to do everything they can to flatter the car in these early pictures - I am assuming someone took the time to optimize the paint and what not to flatter the car - and if they did not - shame on them - that is basic marketing 101.... Theoretically, this should be as pretty as the car can look in these photos..... The Interscope "batmobile" looked similar to this in many ways but boy they painted that car and placed the decals to flatter it nicely - it wouldn't take a lot of effort and it is alarming that it appears they might not even have done that.....

You may have a point there Chris, but at the same time, I'm skeptical that it would change the appearance much. I don't know if you have ever seen the TV show "King of the Hill", but there is a line from a character named Khan that I think applies here. "You can put lingerie on a monkey, but it's still a monkey".

jimispeed

30th September 2011, 04:42

Really? Some of you really like that airbox? Is it necessary? And as far as it being more racy? Most of the fastest cars have been sleek and sexy! If this is what they're going for, it's a disgrace! Someone is succeeding at doing away with this series for good!

I personally don't mind the sidepods that much, but that car as it sits certainly won't get me out of my chair to purchase tickets, pics, memberships etc........

Do they want this series to be the worst/ugliest series in history?

I'm still hopeful for an exciting future in Indycar, but don't have a good feeling about it currently.......

Jared East

30th September 2011, 07:12

jimispeed

30th September 2011, 07:44

Ill be the 1st to say it but I think the old car looks better lol.

Ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooh!!!

Some truth in that, but without the ugly airbox ""see photoshop"" IMO it does look better.....

Chris R

30th September 2011, 13:12

This car is garbage it makes the COT look good. I don't even know how to describe it. Theres no design language, it looks as if random junk was thrown together. It reminds me of that old show junk yard wars if they had to make a open wheel car, or semi open wheel car.

P.S. Ill be the 1st to say it but I think the old car looks better lol.

First of all, I agree with you, airbox and all - the current car looks better and it is no beauty queen.... perhaps we have just grown used to its ugly mugg... :-) I personally thought the G-Force/Panoz was a decent looking racer for what it is worth.....

The COT analogy is very appropriate - and is one of the reasons whY I think it is really important for us fans to speak up now..... NASCAR messed up on the new car and the fans called them on it - the difference is that NASCAR has some room to fall - Indycar does not - they mess this up too bad and the whole series is gone and I do not know about you but the things I want to see even less at the Indy 500 less than the new car is the revised COT.......

jimispeed

30th September 2011, 21:00

chuck34

30th September 2011, 21:28

I honestly don't think the airbox is the issue. It is those sidepods. If it had some "normal" sidepods it really wouldn't be too bad. Just my opinion though.

Chris R

30th September 2011, 22:21

IndyCar Series - Dan Wheldon trimming out new IndyCar Series car - ESPN (http://espn.go.com/racing/indycar/story/_/id/7031680/indycar-series-dan-wheldon-trimming-new-indycar-series-car)

Now that pic is ugly! For every fans sake get rid of that airbox!! Bring back the sig hoop!!

I think that low angle s one of hte better angles to view the car - sometimes it is better to look a pig in the eye :p :

seriously, I tend to agree with Chuck - I'd rather see a fix of the side pods first. I suspect the airbox will go away if and when they bring in competition on the body kits..... The other body kit they had on display at Indy was not this bad......

Chris R

1st October 2011, 03:54

I am trying this attachment thing for the first time hopefully it works....

I thought this concept was much better than the one they chose..... It is not perfect but....

chuck34

3rd October 2011, 12:34

Anybody see Tony Cotmans interview in the race yesterday? He doesn't like the sidepods either. :D

jimispeed

5th October 2011, 05:28

Enough testing to get rid of the hideous airbox?

On to Phase 2 for 2012 - IndyCar.com (http://www.indycar.com/news/show/55-izod-indycar-series/50864-on-to-phase-2-for-2012/)

NY2IA

5th October 2011, 18:45

I am curious to know about the aerodynamics of the new car. Any testing with several cars on track to see the impact on passing? If the racing is good, both street and oval, then looks may not matter (as much).

garyshell

5th October 2011, 21:18

Test Drivers Like Feel of 2012's New IndyCars

Oct 5, 1:57 PM (ET)
By MICHAEL MAROT

INDIANAPOLIS (AP) - Scott Dixon likes the sound and safety features of the new IndyCars.
Dan Wheldon prefers the way they handle.

Will Power is all for the turbochargers.

Each of the three drivers who have been testing the 2012 cars over the past week has favorite aspects in next year's model, but they agree on one thing - the new cars will be a welcome change for drivers and fans.

"We've got a totally new package of technology, it's closer to what people use in their cars," Dixon said after Tuesday's session at Mid-Ohio. "It's a lot lighter, it's more nimble and to me, it's more up-to-date."

There are many differences between this season's version and next year's.

Turbochargers return to the series for the first time since the 1990s, giving drivers a more powerful and efficient V6 engine.

There will be less noise at races, and track records may no longer be just a thing of the past at Indianapolis, the series' highest-profile venue.

Fans will get to see competition among engine manufacturers. Chevrolet, Honda and Lotus are all on board for next season, and teams have begun deciding which one they'll choose.

And safety will be upgraded, too. In fact, Dixon, a two-time IndyCar champ and the 2008 Indy 500 winner for Target Chip Ganassi, believes the new car is built better to handle crashes - no matter what speeds drivers achieve.

"The seating is a big safety improvement," said Dixon, a New Zealand native. "There's 3 inches of foam surrounding the cockpit before you even put the seat in, so things like what happened with Justin Wilson at Mid-Ohio earlier this year, I think, will be eliminated and you won't have those big forces being pushed through the drivers."

Wilson broke a vertebra in his back when he spun off the course and hit a bump between Turns 1 and 2 in August.

Dixon is all for the changes, and he's not alone.

Power, second in points heading into next weekend's season finale at Las Vegas, was scheduled to test with Dixon on Tuesday and Wednesday in Ohio. Dixon ran the Honda engine, Power took the Chevy.

Bad weather shortened Tuesday's session and organizers are not allowing the drivers to discuss how fast they're running, though the drivers say these sessions are more about working out bugs than going fast.

Still, they ran long enough to get a feel for what will work.

"I like the turbochargers," said Power, an Aussie who drives for Team Penske. "When we ran them in Champ Car, you could really tell how much force you had on them and the sound is really cool."

Nobody knows these cars better than Wheldon, the two-time Indy winner and 2005 points champ.

Without a full-time ride this season, series officials hired the Englishman to do most of the tests. He's run on Indianapolis' road course, last week spent three days as the first driver on Indy's historic 2.5-mile oval in the new car and is convinced series officials and engineers got this car right.

"It feels good. It feels like you'd expect it to react and it feels like a race car around there," Wheldon said. "To be quick, you'll have to get the car down to the white line and up to the apex in the corner, but what I really like is how reactive it is."

The good marks do not mean the transition will go smoothly for everyone.

The Honda engines could have an early edge because they've been the only power plant in IndyCar since 2006. Ganassi's team, which has won the last three points titles and is in position for a fourth straight season championship, and A.J. Foyt Enterprises already have announced they're sticking with Honda.

Team Penske and Andretti Autosport have aligned themselves with Chevy, which returns to the circuit for the first time since 2005.

The biggest question is engine reliability, an issue that Honda has mostly eliminated in recent years.

While the test drivers have found nothing to raise suspicions, getting a new product is always a bit of a concern.

"I think there will be quite a lot of testing and whoever it is will make sure it's reliable," Wheldon said last week. "I think that's what we achieved. It definitely requires a slightly different technique with the turbocharged engine. What's great about this is it will level the playing field."

That may not be good news for the three teams that have dominated IndyCar racing over the past decade - Andretti, Ganassi and Penske.

But after the Oct. 16 season-finale at Las Vegas, most teams will spending the offseason fine-tuning the new cars and finding ways to win races.

"Drivability will be harder, so that will make drivers and teams work a lot harder to set up the car," Dixon said. "But if you miss it, you're going to miss it by more."

My Way - Sports News (http://sports.myway.com/news/10052011/v9279.html)

Gary

Mad_Hatter

6th October 2011, 02:13

http://indycar.cdn.racersites.com/prod/photos/340434/FULL.jpg
Article and more pics, to include a low res of the Chevy-Dallara at racer (http://www.racer.com/2012-indycar-launches-phase-2-testing-at-mid-ohio/article/213568/)

It looks MUCH better in this render of a Target car by goobers from tf... fwiw

http://www.pbase.com/aldofalla/image/138574758/original.jpg

Chris R

6th October 2011, 02:34

Honda paint job looks WAAAYYYY better than the Izod paint job - if they had just used this layout much of he negative press may have been avoided..... Not saying the car is suddenly a supermodel - but it at least is not quite so ugly...... there is some hope.....

NickFalzone

6th October 2011, 04:40

The Honda pic looks pretty good to me... although it could be a "myspace angle" and still looks like crap from anywhere else. What has kept me from getting too down on the new car's look is that a.) the paintjob could help and b.) the various bodykits could help. I've always felt that a new IndyCar 'should' look high-tech. The Honda one fits in a reasonable amt with my expectation. The Izod/Dallara one we've been seeing has not looked high tech, it has looked odd and lumpy. Fingers crossed that new paintjobs and new bodykits will make the new car somewhat stylish.

jimispeed

12th October 2011, 06:01

So, the bunghole stays!(whatever) The car we see now, we'll see in 2012. Single and twin turbos!! In 2013 the aerokits are in full swing! Lotus engines will exist.....

Great job Jon!!

Professor B on the 2012 Car - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pklyqCw2ckE)

jwhite9185

12th October 2011, 13:02

Just need to sort out those ugly side pods now and it'll look a little more normal

DBell

12th October 2011, 16:14

It's the equivalent of putting lipstick on a pig.

anthonyvop

13th October 2011, 22:16

Definitely not its good side

http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/303913_258311520872484_172521979451439_661386_1198 734438_n.jpg

Dr. Krogshöj

13th October 2011, 22:41

Definitely not its good side

http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/303913_258311520872484_172521979451439_661386_1198 734438_n.jpg

It would look extremley good from this angle without those strange sidepod bulges.
I also hope they won't run more wings than this on the 1.5-mile ovals.

Lousada

13th October 2011, 23:06

The roll hoop camera is also one of the most ugly inventions ever.

SarahFan

13th October 2011, 23:26

There is a pic of the car in Chevrolet livery .. By far the best paint job of the 3 so far

Phoenixent

14th October 2011, 04:56

Definitely not its good side

http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/303913_258311520872484_172521979451439_661386_1198 734438_n.jpg

That's one ugly car....... Your know what they say the only good looking Dallara is the one in the rubbish bin.... :D

anthonyvop

14th October 2011, 06:05

That's one ugly car....... Your know what they say the only good looking Dallara is the one in the rubbish bin.... :D

Only the Dallara IndyCars. Their other cars are quite attractive

http://www.teamghinzani.it/images/img_dallara.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ae/Dallara_LMP.jpg

http://paddocktalk.com/news/html/modules/ew_filemanager/08content/gp2/magnycours/gp2-magnycours-senna-pole-622.jpg

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/gros_nurb_2011.jpg

garyshell

14th October 2011, 06:36

I think this one looks pretty good.

http://assets.speedtv.com/images/article_assets/109/1091211/1091211_article_img_large1.jpg
Despite all the hate being spewed at them, I actually like the looks of the sidepods.

Gary

chuck34

14th October 2011, 13:40

The new car is really starting to grow on me, the paint jobs help. I still can't wait to see the aero kits because I'm sure someone will come up with a slimmer side pod.

And what is the deal with the drop-off at the end of the engine cover? Why doesn't it keep flowing down over the gearbox?

anthonyvop

14th October 2011, 18:07

The new car is really starting to grow on me, the paint jobs help. I still can't wait to see the aero kits because I'm sure someone will come up with a slimmer side pod.

You will have to wait till at least 2013 at the earliest.

chuck34

14th October 2011, 18:28

You will have to wait till at least 2013 at the earliest.

Yes I understand that. Doesn't change my opinion that different kit will surely help the aestetics of the car.

anthonyvop

14th October 2011, 19:51

Yes I understand that. Doesn't change my opinion that different kit will surely help the aestetics of the car.

One can only hope!

nigelred5

15th October 2011, 04:41

Only the Dallara IndyCars. Their other cars are quite attractive

not all of them

http://www.automobilsport.com/upload/24hdaytona-2008/grandam-suntrust-pontiac.jpg

anthonyvop

15th October 2011, 12:53

not all of them

http://www.automobilsport.com/upload/24hdaytona-2008/grandam-suntrust-pontiac.jpg

You are right.

But it is interesting to note that the both examples of Ugly Dallaras are also the ones designed with major input by their respective sanctioning bodies.

jimispeed

15th October 2011, 18:09

Well, this one definitely soounds better!!

AUTO RACING - VIDEO: Chevy 2012 Indy Car Testing Teaser (http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/video-chevy-2012-car-testing-teaser)

nigelred5

16th October 2011, 01:05

You are right.

But it is interesting to note that the both examples of Ugly Dallaras are also the ones designed with major input by their respective sanctioning bodies.

I totally agree, but I would add that both series produce some very good racing in some oooogly cars ;)

Phoenixent

16th October 2011, 05:36

I bet those side pods get changed before the first race next year....

garyshell

16th October 2011, 06:36

I bet those side pods get changed before the first race next year....

I'll take that bet.

http://indycar.cdn.racersites.com/prod/photos/340708/FULL.jpg

I think they look just fine and will do exactly what they are intended to do, reduce drag and prevent interlocking of wheels.

Gary

Phoenixent

16th October 2011, 20:34

I'll take that bet.

http://indycar.cdn.racersites.com/prod/photos/340708/FULL.jpg

I think they look just fine and will do exactly what they are intended to do, reduce drag and prevent interlocking of wheels.

Gary

When was the last time you saw wheels interlock on the top of the sidepod?

call_me_andrew

16th October 2011, 21:32

I don't mind the tall sidepod, I just wished it was symetrical across each tire.

nigelred5

17th October 2011, 01:22

Should we continue the debate of why ICS is going to the rear wheel arrangement they are? Hopefully the safety of the new car will be DW's legacy.

bugeyedgomer

17th October 2011, 03:53

didn't at least one of the cars launch from a t-bone collision with a turned car

jimispeed

17th October 2011, 07:12

You can't make it perfect. It will always be vulnerable. But, you can continue to methodically improve it!

Dr. Krogshöj

17th October 2011, 09:25

I find it tragically ironic that Dan participated in the testing programme of a car that features one of the safety advancements that greatly reduces the chance of accidents like his. I think Dallara should rename the model as DW-98, honouring his Indy 500 winning number.

christophulus

18th October 2011, 21:15

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/95505

Dallara's 2012 IndyCar chassis will be named in honour of Dan Wheldon, the Italian racing car constructor has confirmed.

Dallara, has not confirmed the codename of the new car. A number of suggestions have been made, however. Among them was an idea by IndyCar driver James Hinchcliffe to name it the DW 001.

A fitting tribute.

Chris R

18th October 2011, 21:30

didn't at least one of the cars launch from a t-bone collision with a turned car

I think so, and I am not sure Dan or Will were launched by wheel to wheel contact as much as nose to wheel contact or even perhaps the same general situation that launched both Paul Dana and Mario - debris UNDER the car..... I have a feeling the new car would have still had a launching issue in this accident.....

In this case, I believe the solution is more about the track/car relationship than either one of those factor alone.

I also think PT is on to something with the fence - I am thinking that what may have done so much damage to the top of the car was getting hooked on a fence post and that may have caused the fatal injury or compromised the car so mach that he no longer had protection.....

I am assuming that someone is going to put forth the effort to figure out what happened and if anything can be done to prevent a similar accident in the future. We also must consider what Mario had to say, which I more or less took to mean that you cannot make racing 100% safe and that each accident is a unique set of circumstances that you may not be able to effectively react to with new rules or policies...

jimispeed

30th October 2011, 01:54

Wish there was video to go with it, but here you go.

Manufacturer program pushes forward - IndyCar.com (http://www.indycar.com/news/show/55-izod-indycar-series/50943-manufacturer-program-pushes-forward/)

Let's keep looking for advances in the series this offseason! Video preferred! :)

Loneranger

31st October 2011, 17:26

Has anybody actually heard a single test driver, engineer or designer, tire installer say this new car is FAST? All I have heard anybody say is how maneuverable it is, nobody is talking about it being a fast car.

tillyvick14

1st November 2011, 05:26

Does anyone know if the new car will be capable of the types of changes that are being recommended by almost every great driver including Bobby Unser, Zanardi, Mario Andretti, all the current drivers, etc.? All are unanimous that we need to return to the CART horsepower levels with greatly reduced downforce to prevent the cars from running flat out around ovals. As I understand it the new car is basically an advancement of the current formula with some improved safety features like the rear fenders. I've read that the new V6 turbo engines can provide varying amounts of power up to around 750 hp. Hopefully this can now be adjusted upward to the 900 hp range? Also hopefully the car can have some downforce stripped from it. My fear is that the current high downforce/low hp formula has become so entrenched with IndyCar that the new car was designed to continue that formula. If that is the case the banked ovals definitely need to be eliminated and only Indy, Milwaukee, Loudon and maybe Iowa should be on the schedule as far as ovals.

Andrewmcm

1st November 2011, 10:37

Back in the turbo era of F1 the cars had 1600bhp with unlimited boost, so my rather naive assumption is that the turbo cars can be tailored to produce high hp if the boost is deregulated. I have no idea of the technical implications of that, however.

Downforce is easy to shed. Stability of the car and pitch sensitivity are different things altogether.

jimispeed

2nd November 2011, 03:50

Take a look at this lap. This is what I'm waiting for! When racers had to manhandle their cars! Who cares if it's not in english......

CART 1999: Montoya take Detroit Pole - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdtKTlJxRj8)

That was/is driving!!!

garyshell

2nd November 2011, 06:15

FIAT1

2nd November 2011, 13:41

That is Indycar and that is what we want Randy!!!

jimispeed

4th November 2011, 12:05

New footage from Nov. 2nd........

Honda - Chevy IndyCar 2012 Test - November 2, 2011 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AgoZmky3d8I)

Chris R

4th November 2011, 13:36

New footage from Nov. 2nd........

Honda - Chevy IndyCar 2012 Test - November 2, 2011 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AgoZmky3d8I)

nice, the Honda seems to sound better.... Is it just me or does that engine sound more like the old IRL engine than a CART turbo??

I would also be curious if anyone in the stands put a stopwatch on the cars - they do not SEEM to be going very fast - but it is really hard to tell......

Cars look better at speed in grainy video than they do in HD standing still!! :-)

nigelred5

4th November 2011, 16:39

I've always found that most engines from any given manufacturer tend to have a similar sound.

anthonyvop

10th November 2011, 21:57

Oh Crap!!!!

INDYCAR: Series Trying To Solve 2012 Car’s Speedway Issues
Will Phillips, IndyCar's VP of Technology tells SPEED.com, “The car isn’t going as fast as we wanted or expected and we’re trying to identify why." (http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/indycar-series-trying-to-solve-2012-cars-speedway-issues)

Chris R

10th November 2011, 22:52

More proof that if it does LOOK fast it probably ISN'T.... I suspect they have to loose the airbox, and the massive "hips" - based on it's fundamental chassis shape, I am thinking it needs to look more like the 1980-1984 Eagle.....

Andrewmcm

10th November 2011, 23:27

Track data not matching up with modelling data. No surprises there.

Phoenixent

11th November 2011, 02:27

Track data not matching up with modelling data. No surprises there.

Modeling data does not mean a thing since it can be manipulated to whatever the manufacturer wants it to be. I hate to say it but they should just run the current Dallara POS if next years POS can't get up to speed. I knew it would be junk because it looked like an 83 Eagle.

SarahFan

11th November 2011, 03:14

so its not lighter....and its not faster...

anthonyvop

11th November 2011, 03:35

They wanted a car that was Cheaper, With bulbous Side-pods, a rear bumper a Cockpit big enough to fit Hulk Hogan, have it be able to take multiple engine types....and then be esthetically pleasing by committee...........

And then they wonder why it is slow?

They are admitting it is disappointing on Ovals. That probably means they have major issues. There is a reason why they haven't released any times or videos even after what is probably thousands of miles of testing

Andrewmcm

11th November 2011, 12:04

Modeling data does not mean a thing since it can be manipulated to whatever the manufacturer wants it to be. I hate to say it but they should just run the current Dallara POS if next years POS can't get up to speed. I knew it would be junk because it looked like an 83 Eagle.

Yep, I do computer modelling for a living and I know that, in certain circumstances at least, it can be manipulated to produce interesting results. The key to any modelling is validation through real data, and it looks like they're being found out.

Can't we just get out some '95 Reynards and Lolas and start again?

jwhite9185

11th November 2011, 12:33

beachbum

11th November 2011, 12:33

The reports indicate the car isn't as fast on high speed ovals as expected (IMS) and the handling isn't quite as nice as desired. Funny how some who typically trash the IRL have made that into "major issues". Or the car is "junk". Really?

So the car isn't as fast as expected. Contrast the number of miles to massage the old car to its performance level with the very limited number of test miles on the DW12. Personally, I would have been surprised if the new car was on the mark in every area out of the box. That would be highly unusual for any racing vehicle.

Even F1 steams with gazillions of bucks and hours of sim time rarely get it right the first time and often miss by a lot.

FIAT1

11th November 2011, 13:16

So it doesn't look that good and it doesn't work that well either... right.

Strange how Dallara who have had years of experience with Indycars seem to be having teething problems, while when Panoz, who had no experience in Champcar, introduced their new car it just seemed to work out of the box.

Agree. They should call Elan to make more cars and problem is gone. They look like modern race car should.

FIAT1

11th November 2011, 13:22

[quote="anthonyvop"]They wanted a car that was Cheaper, With bulbous Side-pods, a rear bumper a Cockpit big enough to fit Hulk Hogan, have it be able to take multiple engine types....and then be esthetically pleasing by committee...........

Camel is a horse designed by a committee as expression goes.

Andrewmcm

11th November 2011, 13:40

So it doesn't look that good and it doesn't work that well either... right.

Strange how Dallara who have had years of experience with Indycars seem to be having teething problems, while when Panoz, who had no experience in Champcar, introduced their new car it just seemed to work out of the box.

You should say that to Paul Tracy. He has been less than complimentary about the DP01. I also seem to recall issues with the pit lane speed limiter coming on during one of the early races with the DP01.

Chris R

11th November 2011, 14:50

yeah and the fuel tank leak on the DP01.... Generally, nobody was very complimentary about the quality of that car if I recall correctly....

That being said, there is no excuse for the car not working right at the biggest track which holds the biggest race and has the most testing - it should have been right at Indy from day 1....

And sorry, but it DOES matter - the car needs good press which means it needs to be faster or at least NOT SLOWER out of the box.... This car needs to be right and so far it is not meeting that expectation.....

nigelred5

11th November 2011, 15:12

The DP01 had plenty of fit and finish issues, but the car did work as advertized. In fairness, wouldn't the speed limiter problem have been cosworth's software problem, not the chassis?

NASCAR pimped the COT more than a virgin walking sunset blvd... it was intended to be slower. I don't necessarily have a problem with it being slower on ovals, my concern is the reports that sound like it's as much of a handling problem as it is an aerodynamic problem. It needs to be driveable. I can't imagine why thet thing would have balance problems.... it looks more inherently unbalanced than the old Dallara. They're not running the wing and sidepod combinations they first showed at Indy. Maybe they should test the more traditional roadcourse sidepods that were shown?

garyshell

11th November 2011, 15:18

jimispeed

12th November 2011, 02:58

I'm not comparing, and I don't want to start anything so please don't over react, Indycar is all that is left. But.............I remember the DP01 was released and was racey right from the start. It had its problems, but they were resolved. The end result was a car that was sexy and quick enough to set new records.

Indycar should be able to get this thing right! They have the engineering and technology available. This isn't alot of these guys first rodeo!!

Just get the job done!!

jimispeed

12th November 2011, 03:09

Here's some new info on the Lotus engine. Pretty good stuff!!

AUTO RACING - INDYCAR: Lotus IndyCar Engine Making Progress (http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/indycar-lotus-indycar-engine-making-progress/)

EagleEye

16th November 2011, 14:32

For many of those who forget a time when we had new cars every year, teething issues are normal. I can't think of any new car that was "perfect" right out fo the box.

The new car is indeed quicker on road courses, quicker on short ovals, and"currently" slower at Indy. Why

The car is a compromise, as it has to run on short and longoval, street and road courses. The old car was designed specifically for ovals, so it has an inherent advantage there to start. The lower shock/dampers in the front, location of the coolers, etc, were all geared for oval racing, and later the car adapted to road racing

With two new engines now running, and another coming in January, what we have here is exactly what we had back in the good ‘ole CART days, when new cars and four engine manufacturers played the game of “show me yours and I’ll show you mine, maybe” in testing. Back then there was a balance of trying to set the time of the day (per the marketing department) and sand bagging (from the engineering department). Now, more than ever with the series monitoring engine performance, there seems to be quite a bit of the latter going on. No one wants to show their hand early.

There are 28-29 solid entries for next year(thanks again for Mr. Bernard) and that is great news for all. There is a TON of time before the first race to get the little bits sorted. Things will be very good for the start of the season.

garyshell

16th November 2011, 16:23

For many of those who forget a time when we had new cars every year, teething issues are normal. I can't think of any new car that was "perfect" right out fo the box.

But.. but... but... the sky is falling. The sky is falling.

...big ol' grin...

Gary

anthonyvop

16th November 2011, 17:05

For many of those who forget a time when we had new cars every year, teething issues are normal. I can't think of any new car that was "perfect" right out fo the box.

I can

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/42/McNish-ALMS-LRP-2006.jpg/800px-McNish-ALMS-LRP-2006.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/43/Peugeot_908_Nr1_Spa_2010.JPG/799px-Peugeot_908_Nr1_Spa_2010.JPG

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/19/2011_Monaco_GP_Sebastien_%28cropped%29.jpg/800px-2011_Monaco_GP_Sebastien_%28cropped%29.jpg

Actually I can go on and on

EagleEye

16th November 2011, 18:08

I can

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/42/McNish-ALMS-LRP-2006.jpg/800px-McNish-ALMS-LRP-2006.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/43/Peugeot_908_Nr1_Spa_2010.JPG/799px-Peugeot_908_Nr1_Spa_2010.JPG

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/19/2011_Monaco_GP_Sebastien_%28cropped%29.jpg/800px-2011_Monaco_GP_Sebastien_%28cropped%29.jpg

Actually I can go on and on

Actually, you can't go on and on.

First, none of these are an Indycar/Champcar or car from CART so I did not work on any of these. But, I know some people who did!

Do you think each of these cars went well "right from the start" of testing? If you think so, you're wrong.

The first Audi pictured, had a ton or issues with drive shafts, and balance issues. These issues led to Audi instigating a TON of money in development of future chassis. Where is Audi now? Working on the 2013 car. By the time the 2013 car hits the track for the first time, it would have spent thousands of hours on the chassis and engine dyno. Most the issues crop up then. They also found the back end was very hard to work on, and they eventually went with a modular design, which helped the team work on the car.

The R15, probably was as close to perfect once it hit the track, but again it was due to the many hours of testing on the chassis/engine dyno. The current chassis/engine/transmission dynos put the car through the same motion and forces they will see on the track, and has replaced traditional on track testing in the early stages of development. BTW, the Audi's have always been my favorites!

The Puegout pictured, suffered from cooling issues, weight balance issues which degraded front braking. Again, the car suffered from a lot of reliability issues...in testing. And, while it was quick out the box, it could only manage a minimal amount of laps before having to come in and cool off. Not ideal for endurance racing.

And finally, the last car. Ask Rocky the trials and tribulations they had with this car in testing. Several suspension failures, I believe due to an error in their FEA modeling. The car also had some interesting aero balance issues that needed sorting.

To say each of these were "perfect" right out of the box, is false. The current 2012 Indycar, did not go through a lot of dyno testing or aero testing becuase of the test program that had been put in place, and to reduce costs. Lets see where the car is in March and May, before we cry foul!