Fuel Management Points

[Whyzars]

Fuel weight and therefore fuel usage is an important factor in the running of an F1 package.

Do you think that there would be a significant effect on races if the actual fuel remaining in the tank at the end of a race was weighed and championship points awarded? The more fuel, the more points.

Weight based handicapping is obviously not an appropriate option but adding a fuel management component to the overall championship points could be. I see this as no more gimmicky than the DRS and it at least has a technical component to it with points being earned by the team that gets the balance right.

[Retro Formula 1]

No.

[SGWilko]

Fuel weight and therefore fuel usage is an important factor in the running of an F1 package.

Do you think that there would be a significant effect on races if the actual fuel remaining in the tank at the end of a race was weighed and championship points awarded? The more fuel, the more points.

Weight based handicapping is obviously not an appropriate option but adding a fuel management component to the overall championship points could be. I see this as no more gimmicky than the DRS and it at least has a technical component to it with points being earned by the team that gets the balance right.

How about forcing teams which use less fuel (i.e. have more fuel left at the end) to use less fuel at the start of a race? This will force the focus to efficiency and economy....

I bit too gimmicky perhaps? :)

[Retro Formula 1]

Blimey SGWilko, Lewis would do one or two stunning laps, overtaking everyone, before having to go into fuel saving mode and finishing last :D

[Malbec]

Fuel weight and therefore fuel usage is an important factor in the running of an F1 package.

Do you think that there would be a significant effect on races if the actual fuel remaining in the tank at the end of a race was weighed and championship points awarded? The more fuel, the more points.

Weight based handicapping is obviously not an appropriate option but adding a fuel management component to the overall championship points could be. I see this as no more gimmicky than the DRS and it at least has a technical component to it with points being earned by the team that gets the balance right.

So HRT with no reasonable chance of scoring points could get a good handful by fitting a massive tank and finishing the race with a few hundred kilos of fuel?

Midfield teams would face a conundrum wouldn't they. Squeeze out performance and score a few points or be outscored by a slightly slower team that just goes on a fuel economy run with a heavy load to finish the race with a big load of fuel.

IIRC the new regulations with the turbo V6 engines includes a big reduction in the maximum fuel flow allowed so economy and fuel management will be even more important after 2014. Lets leave things at that instead of complicating matters further.

[Whyzars]

How about forcing teams which use less fuel (i.e. have more fuel left at the end) to use less fuel at the start of a race? This will force the focus to efficiency and economy....

I bit too gimmicky perhaps? :)

My flame suit may be about to get a work out. :)

Teams are starting with less fuel than they need to complete the race so there is a fuel economy component in the racing already.

If they were to extend the points to include a "remaining fuel" portion it could have a very interesting effect. I don't believe it will be negative for the racing but they would obviously have to get the points right. A tenth of a point per litre perhaps.

My thinking was along the lines of drivers going out heavy and defending against drivers who opt to go out light and attacking.

[Dave B]

Far too complicated and boring for the casual fan. Finishing order should be finishing order, not decided an hour after the chequered flag.

I'm all for restricting fuel use to encourage more efficient engines but this isn't workable.

[Whyzars]

So HRT with no reasonable chance of scoring points could get a good handful by fitting a massive tank and finishing the race with a few hundred kilos of fuel?

Midfield teams would face a conundrum wouldn't they. Squeeze out performance and score a few points or be outscored by a slightly slower team that just goes on a fuel economy run with a heavy load to finish the race with a big load of fuel.

IIRC the new regulations with the turbo V6 engines includes a big reduction in the maximum fuel flow allowed so economy and fuel management will be even more important after 2014. Lets leave things at that instead of complicating matters further.

I thought about the HRT conundrum. If a fuel tanker with wings can qualify within 107% then why not. :)

If F1 can implement the DRS, which gets complaints for not working or working too well after every single race this year, then why not go for something completely different. At least the teams will have a predictable technical problem to deal with.

[Bagwan]

Fuel weight and therefore fuel usage is an important factor in the running of an F1 package.

Do you think that there would be a significant effect on races if the actual fuel remaining in the tank at the end of a race was weighed and championship points awarded? The more fuel, the more points.

Weight based handicapping is obviously not an appropriate option but adding a fuel management component to the overall championship points could be. I see this as no more gimmicky than the DRS and it at least has a technical component to it with points being earned by the team that gets the balance right.

Interesting idea .
To be less confusing to the average viewer , it might help to give each team a standard amount of fuel with which to start the race .

So , it becomes a "make as much power as you can , but save as much fuel as you can at the same time" situation .

You could then award points afterwards , for the order of how much fuel each car had post-race , top to bottom .



That might work , but figuring out the actual number of points you gain or lose over this , in relation to it's importance against actually winning the race would commit us to endless times of intense debate and argument .

[Whyzars]

Far too complicated and boring for the casual fan. Finishing order should be finishing order, not decided an hour after the chequered flag.

I'm all for restricting fuel use to encourage more efficient engines but this isn't workable.

I think the fuel loads are known by the car electronics at every stage so it shouldn't take any time to learn the final points for the race. The podium would not be affected at all.

A better way forward for F1 could be fuel based rewards as opposed to fuel based restrictions which may have a very negative effect on the racing in the long term.

Everyone is driving around today to finish on vapours. The teams are going all out in the first half and maintaining their position for the rest of the race.

If a way can be found to reward fuel that is NOT used then the field should be far more compressed. Any gap that is built will be at a price in fuel points and a leader is given an incentive to not get too far ahead.

[wedge]

Le Mans/ALMS/LMS has the Michelin Green X Challenge. A mini championship which rewards fuel efficiency and overall performance and the winner of the championships gets a free entry to LM.

It's probably do-able in F1 from calculating fuel weights. It could work as bonus points or a heavily promoted/sponsored bonus prize money.

[The Black Knight]

Fuel weight and therefore fuel usage is an important factor in the running of an F1 package.

Do you think that there would be a significant effect on races if the actual fuel remaining in the tank at the end of a race was weighed and championship points awarded? The more fuel, the more points.

Weight based handicapping is obviously not an appropriate option but adding a fuel management component to the overall championship points could be. I see this as no more gimmicky than the DRS and it at least has a technical component to it with points being earned by the team that gets the balance right.

No, it would be unpolicable and a dream come true for the bottom teams.

[The Black Knight]

Interesting idea .
To be less confusing to the average viewer , it might help to give each team a standard amount of fuel with which to start the race .

So , it becomes a "make as much power as you can , but save as much fuel as you can at the same time" situation .

You could then award points afterwards , for the order of how much fuel each car had post-race , top to bottom .



That might work , but figuring out the actual number of points you gain or lose over this , in relation to it's importance against actually winning the race would commit us to endless times of intense debate and argument .
This is probably a good way forward and I wouldn't be surprised if we see this approach being implemented in the next few years. I see no harm in limiting the amount of fuel a team can use in a race. If they choose to run less, so be it, but for a Greener F1 it should be limited to a realistic amount, as small as possible, while keeping within realistic fuel consumption level, say, oh I don't know, maybe somehwere between 110 - 140 Kg of fuel per race?

[airshifter]

To be honest I'd rather they award points for fastest lap. Any series that flies equipment all over the world isn't green anyway, so let them use as much as they need. :)

[Stuartf12007]

rubbish idea

[Whyzars]

rubbish idea


If the teams were told that they would receive 2 bonus championship points for every 10kg of fuel in their tank at the end of the race in Germany what would Mark Webber do in his endeavour to bridge the gap with Seb? Who would carry the extra weight? Would Hamilton and Alonso knock back the extra points?

The load of carrying extra fuel is not only in lap times. There is extra wear on the engines, the brakes and pretty much everything in the package. Obviously Seb would probably not bother initially but a couple of DNF's and he might wish he had carried the extra weight. He might think about not winning by 30 seconds when he could've won by 10 seconds and saved fuel but take the risk of a minor spin costing him a position.

Maybe the mid point of the season is not the time to kick this off but having it available from the start of the season could see a real impact on the way the races are driven. I would certainly expect the racing to be closer and overtaking to be increased.

Anyway, its just an idea and as Bagwan hinted, it could keep us endlessly entertained working out how many bonus points to give per kilogram of fuel. :)

[Mark]

No.

[555-04Q2]

See post #2.

[Koz]

Worst idea, ever.

[pete c]

wow formula one, the fuel economy championship, i dont think so............

[Whyzars]

wow formula one, the fuel economy championship, i dont think so............


This is not about fuel economy. Teams go out today with less fuel than they need and economise based on finishing with the same fuel load as everyone else.

This is about rewards for fuel load management whereby the driver earns bonus points for carrying the extra weight of the fuel that remains in the tank.

Teams can choose to carry an extra fuel load throughout the race to achieve bonus championship points. The racing will be closer and the overtaking will be more frequent as different fuel programs come into play.

And best of all - it wouldn't need the DRS to interfere with the purity of F1. Fuel load management would be a strategic and technical issue dealt with by teams and drivers based on their position within the championship and the capabilities of their vehicle.

[Mark]

Points for fuel is quite simply ludicrous. Teams are already incentivised to be fuel efficient as it would add weight to the car at the start of the race.

Further economy could be achieved by removing the engine freeze.

[vhatever]

Let's give more points for how much the driver weighs, too, so I can start seeing a bunch of fatties out there racing. Fat people like to drive fast too. it will be great, just trust me.

[Whyzars]

Let's give more points for how much the driver weighs, too, so I can start seeing a bunch of fatties out there racing. Fat people like to drive fast too. it will be great, just trust me.

Thats the spirit. ;)

Cars carrying extra fuel might be a way to compress the field and it will be totally under team and driver control. Self imposed handicapping if you will although I don't believe it should be looked at like that.

If a team qualifies well then they might run a heavier fuel load to pick up a couple of extra championship points. If their performance is not carried into the race then they could use the extra fuel to run harder for longer.

As a season progresses, fuel load bonuses could have a positive effect on the way races pan out. The team strategy would be the unknown of how much fuel a driver started with and how much a driver planned to save for the scrutineers.


P.S. If a fat driver can get his super licence then why shouldn't I be allowed to race... :)

[steveaki13]

Worst idea, ever.

Sprinklers.
Medals.

Worst idea from someone not insane.

Unlike Bernie

[Bagwan]

Let's give more points for how much the driver weighs, too, so I can start seeing a bunch of fatties out there racing. Fat people like to drive fast too. it will be great, just trust me.

I don't know , I think we need some kind of standardized breeding program for drivers , as they vary too much , making it unfair .
Some are mere spider monkeys and others are great apes .

[Bagwan]

Points for fuel is quite simply ludicrous. Teams are already incentivised to be fuel efficient as it would add weight to the car at the start of the race.

Further economy could be achieved by removing the engine freeze.

I agree that removing the engine freeze would be a good idea .

The idea of putting the fuel savings right up front by awarding points need not directly affect the championships already run if you kept it separate .
But , including it in some way like this would show the sport's drive to be more efficient on the face of it , rather than hiding it from the casual fan , except when the announcers state that a driver must save fuel or run out .

It adds a layer of strategy that isn't artificial .

[steveaki13]

I don't know , I think we need some kind of standardized breeding program for drivers , as they vary too much , making it unfair .
Some are mere spider monkeys and others are great apes .

Anthony Davidson and Alex Wurz spring to mind

[Garry Walker]

Is there some kind of a competition on this forum that I don`t know about on who can come up with the dumbest idea to improve f1? Because this "idea" certainly qualifies for a top 1 position in that competition.

[steveaki13]

F1 triathlon.

The drivers have to swim across the Monaco harbour, then run 3 laps of the track and race there cars the last 75 laps.

Improve F1 and inviting swimming and running fans to watch.

[call_me_andrew]

If you can run a race with less fuel than everyone else, then you'll start the race lighter than everyone else. That's an advantage in itself.


F1 triathlon.

The drivers have to swim across the Monaco harbour, then run 3 laps of the track and race there cars the last 75 laps.

Improve F1 and inviting swimming and running fans to watch.

Put hurdles on the track when the cars go out. That will make it extra exciting.

[Koz]

I don't know , I think we need some kind of standardized breeding program for drivers , as they vary too much , making it unfair .
Some are mere spider monkeys and others are great apes .

Hum... That isn't a bad idea...

So... Schumacher's sperm with Danica Patrick's egg?
Raised on a strict diet of Red Bull and Spinach with a dash of champagne and a pack of Marlboro a day?? :eek:

[Whyzars]

Is there some kind of a competition on this forum that I don`t know about on who can come up with the dumbest idea to improve f1? Because this "idea" certainly qualifies for a top 1 position in that competition.


How dare you attempt to flame an idea because of its dumbness. We are talking about F1 here. The home of the grooved tyre and the DRS. ;)


Giving points for carrying extra weight:

Is under total control of team strategists.
Is tactically unknown to spectators and leaves everyone guessing.
Rewards excellence in engine, brake and fuel management.
Would serve to compress the field.
Sponsors receive increased exposure when cars throughout the order are racing closer together.

I don't think we'd be talking about dozens of points, maybe maximum 4 or 8 per driver per race. It gets really interesting when one driver realises that they can finish 6th and earn more points than the driver who finishes 5th...

Its just an idea... :)

[Koz]

I don't think we'd be talking about dozens of points, maybe maximum 4 or 8 per driver per race. It gets really interesting when one driver realises that they can finish 6th and earn more points than the driver who finishes 5th...

Its just an idea... :)

:eek:

Ground Control to Major Tom
Your circuit's dead, there's something wrong...

[F16]

Good idea, but points must be decided on the checkered flag, it doesn't seem to be easy at the end of the race stewards have to measure how much fuel left in the tank. I think better to let teams decide themselves how much fuel loaded in the tank, cars with lesser fuel load are benefited from running the car less weight, but the consequence if they do wrong math or something wrong occurred during the race it may risk them running out of fuel. I can't remember exactly, Button has experienced this, ran out of fuel in the last corner on BAR Honda.

[Whyzars]

:eek:

Ground Control to Major Tom
Your circuit's dead, there's something wrong...

I hear you Ground Control. The 6th place driver could never be certain of the fuel load in other cars and the points they will be earning.

Weight handicaps have no place in F1 but teams strategising with fuel weight to earn extra championship points could bring some positives. The computers know with accuracy how much fuel remains in the tank so the final points would be known very quickly and the podium would always be first past the post.

I protest that this is the dumbest idea ever on this board. This must be second behind "F1 coupe's" surely. :)

[Malbec]

Giving points for carrying extra weight:

Is tactically unknown to spectators and leaves everyone guessing.

Great!

So we'll see an epic race where Alonso pips Vettel to the finish in a thrilling duel only to find out minutes after the race that actually Vettel was on a fuelsaving run and gets more points than Alonso.

That sounds about as much fun as having drivers lose places and points after the race thanks to stewards investigations and penalties except that it'll happen at every race.


Would serve to compress the field.

No it won't. Quite the opposite in fact. Whats there to stop HRT from having several hundred kilos of fuel more than everyone else so they can guarantee themselves a points haul at every race? How much slower are the heavily loaded cars going to be compared to cars that are just going to go for it?

Why not give extra points to the best fancy dress driver outfit in the race? Would be far more logical than this idea.

[Whyzars]

Great!

So we'll see an epic race where Alonso pips Vettel to the finish in a thrilling duel only to find out minutes after the race that actually Vettel was on a fuelsaving run and gets more points than Alonso.



That is more likely to happen today with current fuel management but we don't know because a car going slow at the end of the race is blamed on tyres or similar. I would be surprised if that happened under a fuel loaded system because Vettel would have sufficient fuel to turn up the wick and defend.



No it won't. Quite the opposite in fact. Whats there to stop HRT from having several hundred kilos of fuel more than everyone else so they can guarantee themselves a points haul at every race? How much slower are the heavily loaded cars going to be compared to cars that are just going to go for it?


If a fuel tanker with wings can qualify within 107% then a team could take that approach.

For arguments sake, if HRT did that then Lotus, Virgin etc. would respond in kind and so on up the line. I believe this will serve to compress the field. 24 lumbering walruses would definitely be a compressed field.

:)

Assuming the teams are sensible, a runaway leader would likely choose to ease off on their charge and keep his car vulnerable to a small spin to earn the extra bonus points. The teams will be in complete control and make their fuel load decision based on their speed, qualifying position and position in the championship.

Obviously the bonus points should not be so great that they turn F1 into an economy series but they would be sufficient to be important over the whole of a series. The team that runs the best package - engine, brakes, fuel management wins the championship - and not a DRS in sight.