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vhatever
14th July 2011, 21:42
It would have been very sad if it had ended up in a collision between Sebastian and Mark, but I have to speak up for drivers, Hill told the BBC. I think they also have a licence or a right to be able to race whenever they want to, and it's their call as to whether they are able to manage that overtaking manoeuvre on their team-mate or not without taking him off.

Hill: Drivers have a right to race, fans want to see them race | F1 News | Jul 2011 | Crash.Net (http://www.crash.net/f1/news/171232/1/hill_drivers_have_a_right_to_race_fans_want_to_see _them_race.html)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0pfw5MWbSw

Not only did damon hill routinely get team orders to go his way, he also worked with other teams to conspire to try to beat schumacher.

The good old British media doesn't like to get into any of that, though.

SGWilko
14th July 2011, 21:47
He's not that big - quite trim if you ask me.....

vhatever
14th July 2011, 22:08
The Italian, German, Australian, and French media have all jumped on this team orders topic from what I gather yet its the British media that you keep mentioning? Why? :confused:

No, they haven't. Why are you always making excuses for the british media is the better question. Let me know how many british news sources pick up damon's comments and then point out his hypocrisy in the same article.

Rollo
14th July 2011, 22:36
The good old British media doesn't like to get into any of that, though.

Is the British media not allowed to do that? Of course you're going to get a British bias in a British or on British television.

Aside: I think we've seen this week that the British media are far from perfect anyway.

Retro Formula 1
15th July 2011, 01:50
No, they haven't. Why are you always making excuses for the british media is the better question. Let me know how many british news sources pick up damon's comments and then point out his hypocrisy in the same article.

You insult a man that has refused to criticise the Schumacher incident just to get a rise. What a pathetic reason to Troll.

What next? I really wonder why you store this vitriol? Give it up and crawl back to your rock Tamburello because you offer no value here.

Rollo
15th July 2011, 02:36
Not only did damon hill routinely get team orders to go his way, he also worked with other teams to conspire to try to beat schumacher.

Hill also conspired with team orders to sit behind Prost in the 1993 season.

What is your point sir? Do you have one?

Hawkmoon
15th July 2011, 06:13
I thought Christian Horner was wearing the "World's Biggest Hypocrite!" hat these days?

Bruce D
15th July 2011, 07:50
Not only did damon hill routinely get team orders to go his way, he also worked with other teams to conspire to try to beat schumacher.

Routinely? Hmm, certainly not '93, Canada '94, Belgium '94 and Monza '94 ok, maybe Portugal '94, can't really think of any other time until Belgium '98, which was really common sense more than anything else. So I wouldn't say routinely.

As for the other charge, well there was that whole nonsense of Jerez '97 where McLaren were involved, but Hill wasn't in the running. So I can't really see what you are talking about. Besides, given how much Ferrari used Sauber as their political b*tch during the Schumacher era to get their way on decisions, I'd say any accusations would be a case of the pot calling the kettle black.

The Black Knight
15th July 2011, 09:53
“It would have been very sad if it had ended up in a collision between Sebastian and Mark, but I have to speak up for drivers,” Hill told the BBC. “I think they also have a licence or a right to be able to race whenever they want to, and it's their call as to whether they are able to manage that overtaking manoeuvre on their team-mate or not without taking him off.

Hill: Drivers have a right to race, fans want to see them race | F1 News | Jul 2011 | Crash.Net (http://www.crash.net/f1/news/171232/1/hill_drivers_have_a_right_to_race_fans_want_to_see _them_race.html)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0pfw5MWbSw

Not only did damon hill routinely get team orders to go his way, he also worked with other teams to conspire to try to beat schumacher.

The good old British media doesn't like to get into any of that, though.


I have never been a Damon Hill fan at all. In fact, when he and Schumacher were racing together, I all but despised him. I'm a bit older and wiser now and I can definitely say, with confidence, that the last thing Damon Hill has ever been is a hypocrite. He is actually a very nice man.

I'm really not sure where this conspiracy theory against Schumacher comes from and I am a Schumacher fan. I don't get it. Could you expand on it further giving examples of what you mean?

Mia 01
15th July 2011, 12:31
You insult a man that has refused to criticise the Schumacher incident just to get a rise. What a pathetic reason to Troll.

What next? I really wonder why you store this vitriol? Give it up and crawl back to your rock Tamburello because you offer no value here.
This amused me, and yours?

wedge
15th July 2011, 15:38
“It would have been very sad if it had ended up in a collision between Sebastian and Mark, but I have to speak up for drivers,” Hill told the BBC. “I think they also have a licence or a right to be able to race whenever they want to, and it's their call as to whether they are able to manage that overtaking manoeuvre on their team-mate or not without taking him off.

Hill: Drivers have a right to race, fans want to see them race | F1 News | Jul 2011 | Crash.Net (http://www.crash.net/f1/news/171232/1/hill_drivers_have_a_right_to_race_fans_want_to_see _them_race.html)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0pfw5MWbSw

Not only did damon hill routinely get team orders to go his way, he also worked with other teams to conspire to try to beat schumacher.

The good old British media doesn't like to get into any of that, though.

Lazy, sensationalist journalism.

At the start of the discussion on the BBC F1 Forum I was thinking the same but Hill's point derives from his conclusion that ultimately you cannot stop drivers racing.

Big Ben
16th July 2011, 23:18
the starter of this thread has some serious anger issues

markabilly
17th July 2011, 05:59
Need to add cry baby and w ****er in addition to hypocrite.


And even worse of all, Damon is Irish


Could be worse, though, you gotta admit, as after all, he could have been British or an Anglander :eek: :eek:

pete c
17th July 2011, 07:08
huh?

SGWilko
17th July 2011, 10:35
huh?

Don't fret, he's not had his meds yet....... ;)

Stuartf12007
17th July 2011, 13:51
It would have been very sad if it had ended up in a collision between Sebastian and Mark, but I have to speak up for drivers, Hill told the BBC. I think they also have a licence or a right to be able to race whenever they want to, and it's their call as to whether they are able to manage that overtaking manoeuvre on their team-mate or not without taking him off.

Hill: Drivers have a right to race, fans want to see them race | F1 News | Jul 2011 | Crash.Net (http://www.crash.net/f1/news/171232/1/hill_drivers_have_a_right_to_race_fans_want_to_see _them_race.html)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0pfw5MWbSw

Not only did damon hill routinely get team orders to go his way, he also worked with other teams to conspire to try to beat schumacher.

The good old British media doesn't like to get into any of that, though.

^ total nonsense ^

vhatever
17th July 2011, 14:48
PWease waffy don't pass me. I spent my whole career being embarrassed by the other Schumacher. Et tu Ralfie?

ROFL at the people upset their little hero lamer boy is showed up for the hypocritical piece of trash he is, not to mention mediocre driver.

vhatever
17th July 2011, 15:35
The only thing "questionable" would be any top team wanting anything to do with Hill after he drove right into schumacher like an idiot.And I thought the vettel haters all proclaim that a golden retriever could win a WDC driving in a newey-mobile?

SGWilko
17th July 2011, 17:40
The only thing "questionable" would be any top team wanting anything to do with Hill after he drove right into schumacher like an idiot.And I thought the vettel haters all proclaim that a golden retriever could win a WDC driving in a newey-mobile?

Mumbler!

555-04Q2
17th July 2011, 17:42
How has Tamb not been banned again yet :p :

SGWilko
17th July 2011, 17:57
How has Tamb not been banned again yet :p :

Must be the stars not in phase....

555-04Q2
17th July 2011, 18:01
Or the moon in his ar$e :p :

steveaki13
17th July 2011, 21:20
How can people claim any F1 driver to be lame or rubbish.

Any driver from Schumacher and Senna to Kiesa or Yoong are still pretty awesome in my ordinary eyes.

Why are some we know who always so angry. Gees they must have had a bad life to hate everyone and everything so much.

Garry Walker
17th July 2011, 21:52
Hill deserved the win at Spa far more than Ralf, because without the SC Ralf would not have been anywhere close to him at all. I am sure if he had needed, he would have opened a gap to Ralf once again, but why risk a 1-2 for the team, their first win?

steveaki13
17th July 2011, 21:56
Hill deserved the win at Spa far more than Ralf, because without the SC Ralf would not have been anywhere close to him at all. I am sure if he had needed, he would have opened a gap to Ralf once again, but why risk a 1-2 for the team, their first win?

tend to agree.

In those really wet conditions it would only have taken a small mistake and Ralf could have taken them both off so dont let him get that close.

Garry Walker
17th July 2011, 22:09
tend to agree.

In those really wet conditions it would only have taken a small mistake and Ralf could have taken them both off so dont let him get that close.

Yeah, Ralf was crashing left and right in those times, had taken off his teammate twice the previous year, yeah, let them race hard.

vhatever
18th July 2011, 00:03
Hill deserved the win at Spa far more than Ralf, because without the SC Ralf would not have been anywhere close to him at all. I am sure if he had needed, he would have opened a gap to Ralf once again, but why risk a 1-2 for the team, their first win?

I wonder where Gary walker is from? isn't it funny he has no problem with Hill getting team orderrs when ralf is 4 seconds faster a lap, on the argument that without the saftey car blah, blah. guess you forget the pit stop that cost vettel like 10 seconds, right?

Walker boy's post in the other thread:

"So once again Red Bull does their best to screw Webber and help their goldenboy, Rapunzel. But no worries, he has by far the best and fastest car, so even if he keeps up making mistakes on the last lap, his awesome car and Helmet "teamorder" Marko will help him to another WDC."

Have a spot tea, good chap.

Daniel
18th July 2011, 08:49
Give it up and crawl back to your rock Tamburello because you offer no value here.

Slightly rich of you to be criticising someone for coming here under a different name non?

Retro Formula 1
18th July 2011, 11:23
Slightly rich of you to be criticising someone for coming here under a different name non?

As per normal, you miss the point with aplomb. I didn't criticise Tamburello for joining under a different name but for being a worthless poster who adds nothing but bile and hatred to the forum.

And the reason I took a break from this forum was because of people like you and him that act in a childish manner Daniel which was why when I rejoined, I informed the Moderators of exactly who I was and why I was retiring the name Knock-on.

So, you are way off course because I never denied who I was or tried to mislead anyone but changed my name to stop silliness from particular members that seem to confuse opinions expressed on a forum for real life..

Daniel
18th July 2011, 12:13
As per normal, you miss the point with aplomb. I didn't criticise Tamburello for joining under a different name but for being a worthless poster who adds nothing but bile and hatred to the forum.

And the reason I took a break from this forum was because of people like you and him that act in a childish manner Daniel which was why when I rejoined, I informed the Moderators of exactly who I was and why I was retiring the name Knock-on.

So, you are way off course because I never denied who I was or tried to mislead anyone but changed my name to stop silliness from particular members that seem to confuse opinions expressed on a forum for real life..

Listen Knockie, you act all high and mighty but you're no better than anyone else on this forum. I admit that sometimes I don't conduct myself in the best fashion, this is in contrast to yourself who acts up but never takes responsibility for his actions.

Retro Formula 1
18th July 2011, 12:55
Listen Knockie, you act all high and mighty but you're no better than anyone else on this forum. I admit that sometimes I don't conduct myself in the best fashion, this is in contrast to yourself who acts up but never takes responsibility for his actions.

Go away little man. End of conversation as you're not worth the time. :wave:

SGWilko
18th July 2011, 13:13
As per normal, you miss the point with aplomb. I didn't criticise Tamburello for joining under a different name but for being a worthless poster who adds nothing but bile and hatred to the forum.

And the reason I took a break from this forum was because of people like you and him that act in a childish manner Daniel which was why when I rejoined, I informed the Moderators of exactly who I was and why I was retiring the name Knock-on.

So, you are way off course because I never denied who I was or tried to mislead anyone but changed my name to stop silliness from particular members that seem to confuse opinions expressed on a forum for real life..

Hi Retro was Knockie. Nice to see you back - now I know you are or were, if you know what I mean!!!

SGWilko
18th July 2011, 13:15
sometimes I don't conduct myself in the best fashion

Your sometimes is my often.....

The Black Knight
18th July 2011, 13:40
As per normal, you miss the point with aplomb. I didn't criticise Tamburello for joining under a different name but for being a worthless poster who adds nothing but bile and hatred to the forum.

And the reason I took a break from this forum was because of people like you and him that act in a childish manner Daniel which was why when I rejoined, I informed the Moderators of exactly who I was and why I was retiring the name Knock-on.

So, you are way off course because I never denied who I was or tried to mislead anyone but changed my name to stop silliness from particular members that seem to confuse opinions expressed on a forum for real life..

I must agree with this. The vitrio he spouts filled with nothing but contempt for, not alone people of F1, but people in general makes me feel really sorry for him. It must be very sad to live in such a cocoon of hate.

SGWilko
18th July 2011, 13:42
You mean you didn't know!!!????
Wake up man!!! :p

Retro will get that, as up until the other day I had no idea either.. Doh.. ;) :)

I can be a bit slow sometimes.... :laugh:

Retro Formula 1
18th July 2011, 13:48
;)

That's OK muckers :)

Anyway, back to senseless attacks on one of the few Gentlemen left in this sport ;)

Daniel
18th July 2011, 13:49
Your sometimes is my often.....

If that's how you feel then I understand that.

I just think that it's deeply hypocritical for Knock On to come back as someone else when his past is rather chequered shall we say and then criticise someone who he feels is Tamburello. He acts as if he is completely free on any wrongdoing when at times he's been one of the worst offenders on here at times.

Daniel
18th July 2011, 13:54
;)

That's OK muckers :)

Anyway, back to senseless attacks on one of the few Gentlemen left in this sport ;)

Why do you need to overdramatise things? This guy obviously has his opinion, personally I don't agree with what the OP has said, but it's hilarious to see it hyped up to be some senseless attack on Damon's integrity when all it is, is some person on a forum expressing an opinion which he feels is justified.

SGWilko
18th July 2011, 14:17
Why do you need to overdramatise things? This guy obviously has his opinion, personally I don't agree with what the OP has said, but it's hilarious to see it hyped up to be some senseless attack on Damon's integrity when all it is, is some person on a forum expressing an opinion which he feels is justified.

You don't suppose that the way the thread title has been written, and then the opening post, might be designed to provoke perhaps?

Retro Formula 1
18th July 2011, 14:22
Why do you need to overdramatise things? This guy obviously has his opinion, personally I don't agree with what the OP has said, but it's hilarious to see it hyped up to be some senseless attack on Damon's integrity when all it is, is some person on a forum expressing an opinion which he feels is justified.

PML :laugh: You say I overdramatise [sic] yet feel the need to defend someone that calls Damon "The Worlds Biggest Hypocrite" and then feel that this claim isn't a personal comment on Hills integrity?

You can't make this stuff up :laugh:

Daniel
18th July 2011, 14:30
PML :laugh: You say I overdramatise [sic] yet feel the need to defend someone that calls Damon "The Worlds Biggest Hypocrite" and then feel that this claim isn't a personal comment on Hills integrity?

You can't make this stuff up :laugh:

Buy yourself a dictionary, overdramatise is a correct spelling.

You don't seem to be cut out for this internet malarkey Knockie, it's the internet, people make statements like this. I could call another member on the forum the worlds biggest bellend, it's the internet ffs, whilst it's a personal attack I somehow doubt that this person will resign from whatever job they do in disgrace because of a statement some random on the internet makes and I doubt that some random person's post on a forum will dent Damon's image.

You're getting in a bit of a tizz over this for no real reason.....

Daniel
18th July 2011, 14:34
Also, I never defended the OP, I merely said that you yourself were a hypocrite for doing more of less the same as you're accusing him of doing.

Bagwan
18th July 2011, 15:03
The title includes a question mark .

This implies it is a question .

The question being asked is whether Damon is a blatant hypocrite , having not only been an advocate of team orders when he was in the cockpit , but actively asking for his team owner to intervene during the race with a much faster team-mate approaching .
His reasoning for advocating the team order in the race with Ralf is exactly the same reasoning that Horner gave for issuing the team order to Mark .
Yet , he criticizes the move , without mentioning that it is a distinct change of heart from when he was racing , himself .

These former drivers are asked questions because they are people who have experience in the field .
Why ask Damon any questions when he gives answers that are so utterly hypocritical ?



Damon deserves a lot of respect for his accomplishments , but , I'm afraid he has shown himself foolish here .
Whether or not you see him as the "biggest" , or not is up to the individual , but I think one must see this as pretty obviously hypocritical .

It is only a matter of degree .

Daniel
18th July 2011, 15:07
The title includes a question mark .

This implies it is a question .

The question being asked is whether Damon is a blatant hypocrite , having not only been an advocate of team orders when he was in the cockpit , but actively asking for his team owner to intervene during the race with a much faster team-mate approaching .
His reasoning for advocating the team order in the race with Ralf is exactly the same reasoning that Horner gave for issuing the team order to Mark .
Yet , he criticizes the move , without mentioning that it is a distinct change of heart from when he was racing , himself .

These former drivers are asked questions because they are people who have experience in the field .
Why ask Damon any questions when he gives answers that are so utterly hypocritical ?



Damon deserves a lot of respect for his accomplishments , but , I'm afraid he has shown himself foolish here .
Whether or not you see him as the "biggest" , or not is up to the individual , but I think one must see this as pretty obviously hypocritical .

It is only a matter of degree .

I can't believe I'm reading this blatant attack on Damon's very being!!!!!

You can't make this stuff up! :p

SGWilko
18th July 2011, 15:12
I can't believe I'm reading this blatant attack on Damon's very being!!!!!

You can't make this stuff up! :p

May I ask if you are an adult or in your teens??

markabilly
18th July 2011, 15:17
Don't fret, he's not had his meds yet....... ;)

you mean the kool aid................drink and beleive anything, including your posts.

markabilly
18th July 2011, 15:19
PML :laugh: You say I overdramatise [sic] yet feel the need to defend someone that calls Damon "The Worlds Biggest Hypocrite" and then feel that this claim isn't a personal comment on Hills integrity?

You can't make this stuff up :laugh:

You are right, daniel can not even make up his own bed........

markabilly
18th July 2011, 15:22
You can't make this stuff up! :p

Do it all the time...........besides, this ain't Tamb.
His writing don't fit.

I figured youse guys could recognize a Saint when you see him.........

Daniel
18th July 2011, 15:23
May I ask if you are an adult or in your teens??

May I ask whether you can see the difference between someone being serious and someone having a joke?

SGWilko
18th July 2011, 15:32
May I ask whether you can see the difference between someone being serious and someone having a joke?

Don't confuse sarcasm with humour.

SGWilko
18th July 2011, 15:34
Do it all the time...........besides, this ain't Tamb.
His writing don't fit.

I figured youse guys could recognize a Saint when you see him.........

Nah, can't be, not singing JB's praises enough.....

........or at all actually.

You know JB is British don't you?

Bagwan
18th July 2011, 15:35
Dammit !
Here I was , thinking I could get this discussion back on track and out of "bicker-mode" , by actually making a post about the topic .

Billy , hand me the Kool-aid . I need some down time .

Retro Formula 1
18th July 2011, 15:35
Buy yourself a dictionary, overdramatise is a correct spelling.

While I'm not part of the Forum Spelling Police.........

overdramatise - Spelling of overdramatise from Cambridge Dictionary Online: Free English Dictionary and Thesaurus - Cambridge University Press (http://dictionary.cambridge.org/spellcheck/british/?q=overdramatise+)

It might be the right spelling in your world but in mine, it isn't a word. Could it be American? I don't know as I only speak English.


You don't seem to be cut out for this internet malarkey Knockie, it's the internet, people make statements like this. I could call another member on the forum the worlds biggest bellend, it's the internet ffs, whilst it's a personal attack I somehow doubt that this person will resign from whatever job they do in disgrace because of a statement some random on the internet makes and I doubt that some random person's post on a forum will dent Damon's image.

You're getting in a bit of a tizz over this for no real reason.....

PML, get over yourself Sonny. Thanks for the lesson but can we get back to the thread without having to read any more of your sanctimonious drivel on Interweb etiquette please as I've just had breakfast and couldn't manage to suck another egg.

SGWilko
18th July 2011, 15:42
Dammit !
Here I was , thinking I could get this discussion back on track and out of "bicker-mode" , by actually making a post about the topic .

Billy , hand me the Kool-aid . I need some down time .

Didn't Garmin, or someone similar actually trademark the 'back on track' phrase?

Anyhow, back to the topic, and I recall many scenarios - Portugal was one??? - where Hill was passed in the latter stages of a race by his team mate and there were no attempts at team orders then.

Bagwan
18th July 2011, 16:12
Didn't Garmin, or someone similar actually trademark the 'back on track' phrase?

Anyhow, back to the topic, and I recall many scenarios - Portugal was one??? - where Hill was passed in the latter stages of a race by his team mate and there were no attempts at team orders then.

This may be the case , but isn't it largely irrelevent ?

It's the specific polar opposites in opinion that Hill demonstrates unashamedly in these two specific instances that are the issue here .

Unless , of course , if the incident you describe was one that Damon found distasteful enough that it was the reason why he formed his original opinion that team orders were needed .

Then , it would be entirely relevent .

Bagwan
18th July 2011, 18:57
With some of the contradictory comments that hit the press year after year in F1, Damon's comments are pretty light to be fair. I'm sure if you asked him directly and gave Spa '98 as an example, he'd swallow hard and tell you he'd changed his mind since then ;) :p

Sure , we all suffer from selective memory from time to time , but when giving his opinion here it was spectacularly opposite to his own in Spa .

Should he not have qualified it right then and there ?

Jordan described it as a sore point to discuss for any driver , and as such , waited until the last moment to make the call to Ralf .
Nobody wants to get that call from the principle , but Ralf did , at the behest of Damon .

In the case we just had with Vettel and Webber , Horner was the one who saw trouble coming .
The two racers have both stated they were racing .

In the case with Hill , he warns that they may crash if Ralf is allowed to attack .
That point may be taken one of two ways .
First , as a warning he might either run out of talent , himself , or that Ralf will do the same , or both .
Or , second , that he will take them both out , as in a threat .

Most likely , I think , is that he was dissing Ralf , to get his way , as I can't see him doubting himself , or threatening the team .

That's kinda low , too , isn't it ?

wedge
18th July 2011, 23:28
ykI39M27y10

Racing drivers are selfish to some degree. You can ask to implement team orders or you can rebel against them to some extent.

Hill had cards stacked in his favour in that race to implement the win: being in the lead, Jordan yet to win a race in F1, the wet conditions, Ralf being a loose cannon and overhyped/dissed in his rookie year.

Jordan documentary of the 1998 season: http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=driving+ambition&aq=0&oq=driving+amb

ArrowsFA1
19th July 2011, 09:19
It's the specific polar opposites in opinion that Hill demonstrates unashamedly in these two specific instances that are the issue here.
A couple of points: Damon is not the one making the comparison with Spa '98. That is simply being used as a stick to beat him with but if he were I would say it's simply a case of a different perspective.

At Spa, given that this was Jordan's opportunity to gain their first win and Hill's chance to show he could win in something other than a Williams, he was perfectly entitled to ask the question of EJ - do you want to risk losing this opportunity? It was EJ's decision to make, not Hill's, and given that EJ hadn't been in this position before in F1 it was wise for Hill to paint a clear picture for his team boss. Yes, Hill's question was that of a selfish racing driver who wanted to win but that was his job at the time.

That was not his job more than a decade later. His comments regarding Red Bull at Silverstone are not those of a racing driver. They are those of someone speaking from the perspective of spectators and viewers. Do we disagree with him that people want to see drivers racing?

Is Hill a hypocite for having a different perspective in different circumstances years apart? No. Not IMHO.

Bagwan
19th July 2011, 13:34
A couple of points: Damon is not the one making the comparison with Spa '98. That is simply being used as a stick to beat him with but if he were I would say it's simply a case of a different perspective.

At Spa, given that this was Jordan's opportunity to gain their first win and Hill's chance to show he could win in something other than a Williams, he was perfectly entitled to ask the question of EJ - do you want to risk losing this opportunity? It was EJ's decision to make, not Hill's, and given that EJ hadn't been in this position before in F1 it was wise for Hill to paint a clear picture for his team boss. Yes, Hill's question was that of a selfish racing driver who wanted to win but that was his job at the time.

That was not his job more than a decade later. His comments regarding Red Bull at Silverstone are not those of a racing driver. They are those of someone speaking from the perspective of spectators and viewers. Do we disagree with him that people want to see drivers racing?

Is Hill a hypocite for having a different perspective in different circumstances years apart? No. Not IMHO.

Why would they ask Damon about this at all , if it was not to get the specific perspective of someone who had been a driver ?

If he's not being a hypocrite for his differring opinion , is he one for not qualifying his answer , given it was a polar opposite to when he drove ?

ArrowsFA1
19th July 2011, 14:01
Why would they ask Damon about this at all , if it was not to get the specific perspective of someone who had been a driver?
Perhaps they were asking him as someone who had been instrumental in ensuring the future of Silverstone and the British GP, and who had just watched the culmination of his (and others of course) work on a Sunday afternoon along with tens of thousands of fans.

If he's not being a hypocrite for his differring opinion , is he one for not qualifying his answer , given it was a polar opposite to when he drove ?
He's not a hypocrite. Full stop. In my view.

The issue raised in the article originally posted is team orders, not Damon Hill's character.

Jody Scheckter -
"I think there are always going to be team orders. It's always been a team sport. You've got the two drivers, and they really are trying to work for the team that's the way a team runs. It's like any team sport you've got to do what's right for the team."
Damon Hill -
"I think [the drivers] have a licence or a right to be able to race whenever they want to, and it's their call as to whether they are able to manage that overtaking manoeuvre on their team-mate or not without taking him off. The fans want to see racing, so I think there's some discussion that needs to happen in the sport about how you manage that. I understand the investment, I understand the commitment and the work and the time and everything, but ultimately, you can't stop racing drivers from racing each other...the drivers are entitled to race each other and really at the end of the day, that's what people buy their tickets for.

Which of the two views do you support?

CaptainRaiden
19th July 2011, 14:02
IMHO this is hypocrisy on Damon's part. As much as I hate Schumacher, who has enjoyed his own fair share of team orders in his favor during the Ferrari years, he maintained his consistency when asked about last year's Massa-Alonso Ferrari team orders debacle at Hockenheim. He said that it was justified and that the team has to think about the championship points at the end of the season.

Whatever Damon's role now is irrelevant. He is an ex F1 driver, and a one time champion, who pretty much asked, or even threatened Eddie Jordan to tell Ralf to back off, even if those weren't the exact words. So, he clearly benefited from team orders, when he wanted to, and got a victory at Spa in the bag. He now can't change his opinion 13 years later and say that team orders are bad and that "drivers have the right to be able to race whenever." You stole a possible race win from Ralf with your on-radio politics, didn't you Damon? Don't try and act all saint now and think that people have forgotten Spa 1998.

Bagwan
19th July 2011, 14:15
Sure but does he even remember Spa '98 and all its circumstances? If it was an interview question he wasn't expecting he may had said it off the cuff without remembering what he did 13 years previously. Do you know what you did in 1998? Not excusing him completely, I just think people forget their actions from time to time and occasionally change their minds. Team orders were regularly done in a blatant fashion back then whereas we've had several years where teams have hidden their orders, so there are certain amounts of public opinion that dislike this type of tactic. The sport has changed alot in 13 years too and we've had a succession of championships since 2006 where teams have allowed both its drivers to compete for the WDC and this has been greeted with welcome arms by some sectors of fans. Maybe Damon now supports this notion? I just think its overly judgemental to criticize him as he didn't clarify the context of his opinion in that interview. Just my opinion. :)

PS: I don't think its low of Damon to threaten the team or to 'diss' Ralf in effect because its a competitive sport and the first thing you need to do is beat your teammate mentally and physically. Damon made it clear if Ralf was coming past he wouldn't let him go easily and there would likely be contact. A threat yes but the ball was put in Eddies court.

I can't remember what Ralf's thoughts were on this , or how much he knew at the time .
He approached at five seconds a lap quicker , and may not have been in on this "debate" Eddie had with Damon .

Now , five seconds is a lot , and Damon's only hope , therefore , was the plea for assistance , to be Jordan's first win . That's a desperate situation . I'd remember that .
Couple it with a first win for a team , and I'd remember it for that as well .

Five seconds says an easy pass was coming . He was scared he would lose out .
Now , there's nothing inherently wrong about wanting to win , and Damon demonstrated there that he would go to great length to achieve the win , with the call in .


But , was it really a threat ?
If it was a threat , that seems to me far worse than what Mark did in disobeying orders .


I should clarify something up front here .

If Hill was to come out and say :
"Oh yeah , I guess it's been shown that I had a change of heart on theis issue , and I'd like to say that , as a driver , I obviously felt differently .
Now , as someone outside the cockpit , I understand Horner when he reminds us that all five hundred people in the team have to work for the same goal . "

Something to that effect gets him right off the hook in my eyes .

Bagwan
19th July 2011, 14:23
Perhaps they were asking him as someone who had been instrumental in ensuring the future of Silverstone and the British GP, and who had just watched the culmination of his (and others of course) work on a Sunday afternoon along with tens of thousands of fans.

He's not a hypocrite. Full stop. In my view.

The issue raised in the article originally posted is team orders, not Damon Hill's character.

Jody Scheckter -
Damon Hill -
Which of the two views do you support?

Arrows , I support Jody's view , and so did Damon at one time .
That's the issue here .

ArrowsFA1
19th July 2011, 14:27
You stole a possible race win from Ralf with your on-radio politics, didn't you Damon? Don't try and act all saint now and think that people have forgotten Spa 1998.
Damon Hill the 38yr old racing driver would want the win over his team-mate. Damon Hill the 51yr old spectator and fan would want the two drivers to race. That's not hypocritical, that's simply realistic.

What would you as a fan want to see?


Arrows , I support Jody's view...
Fair enough :up:

CaptainRaiden
19th July 2011, 15:04
Damon Hill the 38yr old racing driver would want the win over his team-mate. Damon Hill the 51yr old spectator and fan would want the two drivers to race. That's not hypocritical, that's simply realistic.

What would you as a fan want to see?

As a fan it's obvious what I'd like to see, two drivers racing. But if I had inherited a win because of team orders in the past, I would maintain the consistency in my point of view about team orders now, not that it was good when it suited me, but now I find it wrong as a fan. Where's the consistency? Not only is there hypocrisy, but also a great deal of selfishness. IMO it's similar to if Schumacher were to, 10 years from now, criticize another driver for punting his championship rival off the track. As a driver it suited him, but as a fan he is outraged. That is hypocrisy. It's not like it's Damon Hill version 1.0 and 2.0, it's the same guy.

SGWilko
19th July 2011, 15:06
The other difference between Spa whenever it was and Silverstone 2011 are the track conditions. Silverstone, by that stage of the race was dry, Spa was wetter than a British seaside holiday.

Which do you suppose had the potential to pose a bigger risk with an overtake given the conditions?

Watching the video in an earlier post, Damon suggests that the call was Eddie's to make - Damon offering his opinion given the fact that it was wet and the teams first chance of victory - Damon did not make that call, the radio playback confirms this. Consider also Ralf's track record in the Jordan and his magnetism to team mates while trying to pass......

Lets wait a few seasons until we get to hear all the radio traffic between the two Red Bulls, then we can begin to draw some useful parallels.

In the post race interview Damon and Eddie gave their take on the situations. It appears some of you want not only your cake, but to eat it as well with the 'damned if he does, damned if he does'nt' attitude to what was an opinion.

Suddenly, I note from some on here, that Eddie has gone from baffoon to the wise old team boss.........

What do they say about folk that change their mind to suit the viewpoint???

SGWilko
19th July 2011, 15:09
It's not like it's Damon Hill version 1.0 and 2.0, it's the same guy.

Indeed, same guy but in a different role. What you do and why as a driver is not necessarily what you'd do as a team boss for example. See A Prost for a great example.

To that end, Damon Hill the director/chairman of a sporting venue, now in the business of charging customers to provide entertainment, is a different ethos and work ethic to that as the highly paid, highly strung chap risking his life strapped to a carbon fibre missile.......

CaptainRaiden
19th July 2011, 15:13
The other difference between Spa whenever it was and Silverstone 2011 are the track conditions. Silverstone, by that stage of the race was dry, Spa was wetter than a British seaside holiday.

Which do you suppose had the potential to pose a bigger risk with an overtake given the conditions?

Vettel and Webber collided on a bone dry Istanbul track, so obviously the potential for another crash was surely there. I'm not advocating team orders, never have. But Damon almost threatening Eddie Jordan by saying "If we race, we could lose everything" doesn't add weight at all to what he is saying now. His words now are not in accordance with his radio talk with Eddie Jordan at Spa 1998. His win at Spa 1998 is actually no different than Michael's win over Rubens at Austria 2002. In both instances, these drivers just didn't want to race and risk. While Michael is still consistent with his view on the subject, Damon has turned the corner, which is quite hypocritical IMHO.

CaptainRaiden
19th July 2011, 15:17
Indeed, same guy but in a different role. What you do and why as a driver is not necessarily what you'd do as a team boss for example. See A Prost for a great example.

To that end, Damon Hill the director/chairman of a sporting venue, now in the business of charging customers to provide entertainment, is a different ethos and work ethic to that as the highly paid, highly strung chap risking his life strapped to a carbon fibre missile.......

Then he shouldn't have given his opinion on the subject at all. At least then he would have been considered diplomatic. Now, he comes off sounding completely hypocritical, which looks really bad for a man in charge of running an FIA certified race track.

SGWilko
19th July 2011, 15:19
Vettel and Webber collided on a bone dry Istanbul track, so obviously the potential for another crash was surely there. I'm not advocating team orders, never have. But Damon almost threatening Eddie Jordan by saying "If we race, we could lose everything" doesn't add weight at all to what he is saying now. His words now are not in accordance with his radio talk with Eddie Jordan at Spa 1998. His win at Spa 1998 is actually no different than Michael's win over Rubens at Austria 2002. In both instances, these drivers just didn't want to race and risk. While Michael is still consistent with his view on the subject, Damon has turned the corner, which is quite hypocritical IMHO.

My opinion of that incident, and held by many others, is that the crash was caused by Vettel. I'd like to think he's learned from that mistake........ clearly his team do not think so.

Why is stating a fact a threat?

SGWilko
19th July 2011, 15:20
Then he shouldn't have given his opinion on the subject at all. At least then he would have been considered diplomatic. Now, he comes off sounding completely hypocritical, which looks really bad for a man in charge of running an FIA certified race track.

That's fine, but I don't share that viewpoint. All credit to him for sharing his opinion.

ArrowsFA1
19th July 2011, 15:22
As a fan it's obvious what I'd like to see, two drivers racing.
So you agree with Damon :up: :s mokin:


...if I had inherited a win because of team orders in the past, I would maintain the consistency in my point of view about team orders now, not that it was good when it suited me, but now I find it wrong as a fan. Where's the consistency? Not only is there hypocrisy, but also a great deal of selfishness.
Whether Hill "inherited" the win "because of a team order" at Spa is very debateable but leaving that aside, do you stick to every point of view you've held regardless of circumstance?

My point about Damon then and now is that he is looking at team orders from a different perspective. It's not an alien concept. We all see some things differently according to circumstance and I don't see why people are so desperate to label Hill a hypocrite. Perhaps it's Maxalitis - the need to insult people to deflect from the real issue which, at Silverstone, was Red Bull's use of team orders (which are perfectly legal) and Mark Webber's unwillingness to accept them.

Or perhaps it's just me :p

CaptainRaiden
19th July 2011, 15:54
So you agree with Damon :up: :s mokin:

Yeah, with version 2.0, :p but I can say I hate team orders since I haven't used them nor benefited from them in the past. Damon though does not have that luxury without sounding hypocritical.



Whether Hill "inherited" the win "because of a team order" at Spa is very debateable but leaving that aside, do you stick to every point of view you've held regardless of circumstance?

Well, without his "proposal" to Jordan, and then Jordan acting on it telling Ralf to back off, is it possible that Ralf would have closed the gap and tried an overtake? Maybe. Would he have been able to do that? Definitely. He was 5 seconds a lap faster until he caught up to Damon, and was looking for an opening. Maybe, and it's a big MAYBE, Jordan would have gotten on the radio to tell Ralf to back off anyway to secure a 1-2 finish, but the truth is that until Damon talked with Eddie on the radio, no such instruction was given. So, then because of Damon's meddling, a potential win was taken from Ralf's bag and given to Damon? Yes. Damon clearly didn't want to race his teammate that day, and he shouldn't be talking about team orders, drivers wanting to race BS today as he himself benefited from them in the past. His words are hollow now. Give me some consistency with your actions and words, that's all that I'm asking for. It sickened me when I saw Eddie Jordan talking on BBC last year after Hockenheim about how bad team orders are.


My point about Damon then and now is that he is looking at team orders from a different perspective. It's not an alien concept. We all see some things differently according to circumstance and I don't see why people are so desperate to label Hill a hypocrite. Perhaps it's Maxalitis - the need to insult people to deflect from the real issue which, at Silverstone, was Red Bull's use of team orders (which are perfectly legal) and Mark Webber's unwillingness to accept them.

Or perhaps it's just me :p

If Damon is looking at team orders from a different perspective now, then he should also perhaps mention his past and maybe even explain or apologize for his actions then, saying that what happened at Spa 1998 was not two drivers racing, but securing a safe 1-2 for the team. This is exactly what Red Bull instructed Vettel and Webber to do. Damon is lucky that Ralf agreed to finish second and didn't ignore instructions like Webber. If he criticizes team orders in F1 now, he should also criticize his Spa 1998 win. Do you think he's ashamed of that win? I don't think so. He happily gobbled up the victory pie then, but has problems with Red Bull doing the EXACT same thing now, that he asked for 13 years ago. If that is not hypocrisy, I don't know what is.

SGWilko
19th July 2011, 15:59
securing a safe 1-2 for the team. This is exactly what Red Bull instructed Vettel and Webber to do.

Bringing this into perspective;

In Spa 98' I think it was, this was to be Jordan GP's first win.

In Silverstone 2011, Vettel has, pretty much, got the WDC sewn up and the WCC is but a mere formality for the team now.

Do you see a difference.

Add in the fact that Red Bull will 'never use team orders' - and that's from the Bull's mouth....

CaptainRaiden
19th July 2011, 16:30
Bringing this into perspective;

In Spa 98' I think it was, this was to be Jordan GP's first win.

In Silverstone 2011, Vettel has, pretty much, got the WDC sewn up and the WCC is but a mere formality for the team now.

Do you see a difference.

Add in the fact that Red Bull will 'never use team orders' - and that's from the Bull's mouth....

It doesn't matter because team orders are legal now. Whether Vettel has it in the bag is irrelevant. They just didn't want their two drivers to crash and give a truckload of constructor points to Ferrari. In Spa 1998, Jordan's first win or not, Hill just didn't want any piece of Ralfie that day, and he's advocating "let the drivers race" and "no team orders" today. Do you see the hypocrisy? IMHO it's worse than Silverstone, because Vettel didn't ask Horner to tell Webber to back off. It was Horner's own decision, whereas Damon Hill painted a picture for Jordan, and almost coerced him into securing the win for him. Eddie Jordan or Damon Hill IMO should not ever say that team orders are wrong. What they did and what they say now just doesn't fit into the whole picture.

SGWilko
19th July 2011, 16:34
Vettel didn't ask Horner to tell Webber to back off. It was Horner's own decision.

Hold it, is that a fact - do we have radio transmission evidence to back this up as we do for Spa '98?

CaptainRaiden
19th July 2011, 16:37
Hold it, is that a fact - do we have radio transmission evidence to back this up as we do for Spa '98?

That is an assumption, since we didn't hear Vettel asking Horner to do it. :p If he actually did, then this is the exact same scenario as Spa 1998 only in the dry.

SGWilko
19th July 2011, 16:41
only in the dry.

.......and the points difference, and the first win thingy, and Ralf's track record, and Red Bulls self proclaimed dislike of team orders............

CaptainRaiden
19th July 2011, 16:52
.......and the points difference, and the first win thingy, and Ralf's track record, and Red Bulls self proclaimed dislike of team orders............

Oh, are all those excuses to justify Damon Hill's hypocrisy regarding team orders? I almost didn't see them when I blinked...

SGWilko
19th July 2011, 16:55
Oh, are all those excuses to justify Damon Hill's hypocrisy regarding team orders? I almost didn't see them when I blinked...

Nope.

Mia 01
19th July 2011, 20:22
I like Damon, think he is a man with honour. I also like Jenson Button, a fast driver with a WDC, fair and likeable. Perhaps they have some opinions on the sport or a driver but so do most on the net.

Whats the issiue?

The Black Knight
20th July 2011, 10:28
I find this whole thread a bit ridiculous. That was 13 years ago in a race and Damon had his own interests at heart. He wanted a win for Jordan, his first race win for them. I don’t see the hypocrisy between what he said then and now. Not alone that but he was asked that remark and didn’t have time to think over it. He might say different if he were asked again now were he to put himself back in the situation of Spa 98 and remind himself of it. How we have 5 pages on this I'll never know :D

Daniel
20th July 2011, 12:51
I find this whole thread a bit ridiculous. That was 13 years ago in a race and Damon had his own interests at heart. He wanted a win for Jordan, his first race win for them. I don’t see the hypocrisy between what he said then and now. Not alone that but he was asked that remark and didn’t have time to think over it. He might say different if he were asked again now were he to put himself back in the situation of Spa 98 and remind himself of it. How we have 5 pages on this I'll never know :D

I don't see how time changes things. How can you complain about something now (and not be a hypocrite) if back then you were prepared to do the same thing yourself?

SGWilko
20th July 2011, 12:55
I don't see how time changes things. How can you complain about something now (and not be a hypocrite) if back then you were prepared to do the same thing yourself?

If the scenarios were constant - namely points positions etc - then yes, it'd be hypocritical to say one thing then, and another now,

But they were far from similar circumstances, and I think that is the issue that needs to be considered when assesing the viewpoint given by Damon.

Big Ben
20th July 2011, 13:22
If the scenarios were constant - namely points positions etc - then yes, it'd be hypocritical to say one thing then, and another now,

But they were far from similar circumstances, and I think that is the issue that needs to be considered when assesing the viewpoint given by Damon.

You are are being ridiculous. How can we go nuts about it if we do that?

Daniel
20th July 2011, 13:24
If the scenarios were constant - namely points positions etc - then yes, it'd be hypocritical to say one thing then, and another now,

But they were far from similar circumstances, and I think that is the issue that needs to be considered when assesing the viewpoint given by Damon.

Listen, I understand where Damon's coming from, as a competitor you want one thing and then as a fan you want something different. It's understandable.

wedge
20th July 2011, 14:50
It sickened me when I saw Eddie Jordan talking on BBC last year after Hockenheim about how bad team orders are.

Because that was when team orders were illegal hence his rules-are-rules stance and there was no ban on team orders until 2003.

F1boat
21st July 2011, 09:36
It doesn't matter because team orders are legal now. Whether Vettel has it in the bag is irrelevant. They just didn't want their two drivers to crash and give a truckload of constructor points to Ferrari. In Spa 1998, Jordan's first win or not, Hill just didn't want any piece of Ralfie that day, and he's advocating "let the drivers race" and "no team orders" today. Do you see the hypocrisy? IMHO it's worse than Silverstone, because Vettel didn't ask Horner to tell Webber to back off. It was Horner's own decision, whereas Damon Hill painted a picture for Jordan, and almost coerced him into securing the win for him. Eddie Jordan or Damon Hill IMO should not ever say that team orders are wrong. What they did and what they say now just doesn't fit into the whole picture.

This. And BTW I don't blame Damon and Eddie for what they did in Spa. They did the sensible thing, as RBR is the British GP.

F1boat
21st July 2011, 09:37
It doesn't matter because team orders are legal now. Whether Vettel has it in the bag is irrelevant. They just didn't want their two drivers to crash and give a truckload of constructor points to Ferrari. In Spa 1998, Jordan's first win or not, Hill just didn't want any piece of Ralfie that day, and he's advocating "let the drivers race" and "no team orders" today. Do you see the hypocrisy? IMHO it's worse than Silverstone, because Vettel didn't ask Horner to tell Webber to back off. It was Horner's own decision, whereas Damon Hill painted a picture for Jordan, and almost coerced him into securing the win for him. Eddie Jordan or Damon Hill IMO should not ever say that team orders are wrong. What they did and what they say now just doesn't fit into the whole picture.

This. And BTW I don't blame Damon and Eddie for what they did in Spa. They did the sensible thing, as RBR is the British GP.

intheway
21st July 2011, 18:07
I don't see how time changes things. How can you complain about something now (and not be a hypocrite) if back then you were prepared to do the same thing yourself?

Because you're older, wiser, more experienced, see things differently from the outside?

When I was 10 I told everybody Rick Astley was the bees knees. Now I don't think so much of him. I don't think that makes me a hypocrite (although sometimes it does keep me awake at night).

Bagwan
21st July 2011, 18:21
Because you're older, wiser, more experienced, see things differently from the outside?

When I was 10 I told everybody Rick Astley was the bees knees. Now I don't think so much of him. I don't think that makes me a hypocrite (although sometimes it does keep me awake at night).

Damon Hill and Rick Astley , you never see them in the same room , if you know what I'm saying .

You have divulged the Astley fetish , and told us that it's over between you two now .

So , you're not a Hill , uh , I mean hypocrite .
You're just a little creepy . That's all .

No worries . hee hee .

SGWilko
21st July 2011, 21:28
Damon Hill and Rick Astley , you never see them in the same room , if you know what I'm saying .

You have divulged the Astley fetish , and told us that it's over between you two now .

So , you're not a Hill , uh , I mean hypocrite .
You're just a little creepy . That's all .

No worries . hee hee .

You're not suggesting that messrs Hill and Astley are one and the same are you.....?

That's scarey!

Dave B
22nd July 2011, 10:50
Never gonna give the position up, never gonna let Ralf round...

vhatever
22nd July 2011, 11:59
Because you're older, wiser, more experienced, see things differently from the outside?

When I was 10 I told everybody Rick Astley was the bees knees. Now I don't think so much of him. I don't think that makes me a hypocrite (although sometimes it does keep me awake at night).

More experienced in what? BSing? That race in spa was his last or second to last season in formula one. He had enough experience at that point to basically beg his boss to cheat for him. Not only is he a hypocrite, he's pathetic.

SGWilko
22nd July 2011, 12:33
More experienced in what? BSing? That race in spa was his last or second to last season in formula one. He had enough experience at that point to basically beg his boss to cheat for him. Not only is he a hypocrite, he's pathetic.

Clickety click.

vhatever
22nd July 2011, 19:33
Clickety click.

Oh pweez uncky Eddie. Saves me from da walfy monster! Sounded like a babbling baby.

SGWilko
22nd July 2011, 20:20
Oh pweez uncky Eddie. Saves me from da walfy monster! Sounded like a babbling baby.

Sexual Position

intheway
24th July 2011, 02:37
More experienced in what? BSing? That race in spa was his last or second to last season in formula one. He had enough experience at that point to basically beg his boss to cheat for him. Not only is he a hypocrite, he's pathetic.

More experienced in life. Your view on things can change drastically in 13 years, regardless of how old you are. Nobody stops learning at age 40.

tfp
24th July 2011, 12:08
Sexual Position

How funny, you post that on his 69th post :cool: :D

SGWilko
24th July 2011, 13:26
How funny, you post that on his 69th post :cool: :D

I know, and clickety click on his 66th, what was I thinking??????

tfp
24th July 2011, 16:09
:cool: :cool: :cool:

Bagwan
24th July 2011, 16:23
Damon is a hypocrite , but exactly how big is really the only issue when trying to establish whether he is the biggest .

If we go by weight , being that he is jockey-sized , we know he'd fall far short of being the biggest by that criterion .
Height would be a similar issue , with him being diminutive .

Has anyone measured the size of his head lately ?
It could be under severe pressure , as he seems a bit forgetful about some basic principles .
Some hypnosis might help .

ArrowsFA1
25th July 2011, 12:40
Damon is a hypocrite , but exactly how big is really the only issue when trying to establish whether he is the biggest .
When, during that race at Spa in 1998, did Damon say he did not want to race his team-mate?

Bagwan
25th July 2011, 14:32
So what were your opinions in Austria 2002 when Ferrari asked Ruben's to concede his position to a slower Michael? Is it different for you guys if its the team doing the asking rather than the driver? If it is then thats some very flawed logic because the driver has their part to play in ensuring the race finishes in a way which is best for them and the team. We've seen criticism's levelled at webber for ignoring orders at Silverstone and the answer is quite often 'well team orders are legal now'.... Well team orders were legal in 1998 and Damon gave his opinion at the time. He didn't beg or cry like a baby to Eddie over the radio, he gave him the info needed for Eddie to make his decision. Sure he could have let Ralf have a go, but Damon suggested if that happened he would defend hard and the team might not have the dream finish they would have hoped for. Was it right, not sure. Do human beings change their minds on subjects over a 13 year period? Of course and the hypocrite might be closer to home if you can't accept this notion. IMHO. :)

I understood completely why Ferrari asked Rubens to slow and let Michael by , and felt that Rubens was as wrong as when Felipe let Alonso by last year , making them both petulant millionaires .

You take the money to work for a team .
Whether the orders are legal or not , they have always existed .

Damon's team told him his team-mate was 5 seconds faster . That's an easy pass .
But , Damon warned they would wreck . His only defense was a threat .
That's not a team player .

Changing one's mind isn't the issue .
It's changing one's mind , and not acknowledging that you have that is the problem here .

If Damon says he feels differently now to what he did then , then I would have no problem with what he said .
If he's on record saying he changed his mind then I would have no grounds with which to call him a hypocrite .

As far as I know , this isn't the case , so the hypocrite title still stands .

Bagwan
25th July 2011, 14:55
When, during that race at Spa in 1998, did Damon say he did not want to race his team-mate?

He never said he didn't want to race .

But , his team , in saying that Ralf was 5 seconds quicker than him , was clearly saying he should let Ralf by .
This prompted the threat .
"I'm gonna put something to you here , and I think you'd better listen to this ."

Does that sound threatening to you ?

"If we race , if we do race , we could end up with nothing ."

He wasn't being asked to race his team-mate . He was being prepared to be told to let him by .

SGWilko
25th July 2011, 14:59
He never said he didn't want to race .

But , his team , in saying that Ralf was 5 seconds quicker than him , was clearly saying he should let Ralf by .
This prompted the threat .
"I'm gonna put something to you here , and I think you'd better listen to this ."

Does that sound threatening to you ?

"If we race , if we do race , we could end up with nothing ."

He wasn't being asked to race his team-mate . He was being prepared to be told to let him by .

What was Damon's pace earlier in the race - do you perhaps suppose the team were suggesting he get a move on - which indeed he did with the later radio message that the laptimes were similar......

ArrowsFA1
25th July 2011, 16:32
He never said he didn't want to race.
That is an significant point IMHO when he is being accused of hypocrisy.

Until now I haven't seen the suggestion that in response to a team order to let his team-mate through Hill resorted to a "threat". Did the team tell him Ralf was 5secs quicker in terms of a team order, and did Damon actually respond to that information (if it was ever put to him in that way) as you are suggesting or is this merely all conjecture?

IMHO Hill's "if we race we could end up with nothing" is a fair estimation of what might have happened but ultimately it was EJ's decision to make, not Hill's. The Jordan drivers could just have easily been told to race to the finish. Would Hill have been accused of hypocrisy then?

Bagwan
25th July 2011, 16:41
What was Damon's pace earlier in the race - do you perhaps suppose the team were suggesting he get a move on - which indeed he did with the later radio message that the laptimes were similar......

Indeed , in another video I just watched , they tell Damon he is 5 seconds slower , then tell Ralf moments later he is 3 seconds quicker , and then say that the lap times are similar .

So , perhaps they were , indeed , saying he should "get a move on" , but , if that's the case , then does it not go somewhere to say that the original intentions of the team were to have them race ?
In the first video , Eddie says he didn't even want to talk about team orders beforehand , as it was just too upsetting for the drivers .

In the second , Ralf's engineer tells him he can win , as he's catching Damon at a rate of 3 seconds a lap . He clearly thinks they will be allowed to race .

Before Damon's threat , it seems like the team sees a race ahead .

And , moments after his call to his engineer , all that changes .



Just like Mark Webber , Ralf had some difficulty hearing the instructions , but , in the end , took a dutiful , and homourable second .
Make it doubly honourable , as Ralf was leaving Jordan in a few races , and the suggestion by the commentators was that he might not do the honourable thing and hold station .
One only has to look at the faces of those on camera to see how much they were depending on Ralf to answer the team order honourably .
Deep sighs of relief followed .


You see , this was a pretty heavy moment for , it seems , all involved .
I find it hard to believe Damon does not remember this .

I kinda find it pretty hard to believe nobody has brought this up with him .
And , if somebody has , I find it sad he hasn't seen to correct this , as he could , easily .

Bagwan
25th July 2011, 16:56
That is an significant point IMHO when he is being accused of hypocrisy.

Until now I haven't seen the suggestion that in response to a team order to let his team-mate through Hill resorted to a "threat". Did the team tell him Ralf was 5secs quicker in terms of a team order, and did Damon actually respond to that information (if it was ever put to him in that way) as you are suggesting or is this merely all conjecture?

IMHO Hill's "if we race we could end up with nothing" is a fair estimation of what might have happened but ultimately it was EJ's decision to make, not Hill's. The Jordan drivers could just have easily been told to race to the finish. Would Hill have been accused of hypocrisy then?

Even if we discount completely the suggestion that it was a threat , it is still a polar opposite opinion to Damon's stated view now .

Therein lies the hypocracy .

I agree that the team rules , and Damon was right to suggest racing was foolish at that point , as it would risk both cars .

I think Eddie a fool to not tell the drivers to hold station before any of this erupted .
I also think him a fool for never speaking about this with the drivers beforehand as well , as anyone I am paying million$ would know I am the boss .

If he hadn't made the call , he wouldn't be a hypocrite .
Or , if he hadn't sided with Webber , having made the call , he wouldn't be a hypocrite .

Or , if he acknowledges the fact that he changed his mind , he can be released from being a hypocrite .

His choice .

SGWilko
25th July 2011, 17:01
as anyone I am paying million$ would know I am the boss .

Stick two of the current top F1 drivers in your imaginary team, try to tell them who's boss, then when they are racing, see if they 'keep to heel'....

Bagwan
25th July 2011, 17:05
Stick two of the current top F1 drivers in your imaginary team, try to tell them who's boss, then when they are racing, see if they 'keep to heel'....

There used to be honour in being a dutiful number two when asked .

SGWilko
25th July 2011, 17:18
There used to be honour in being a dutiful number two when asked .

Ah, now - have you hired a specific No2? Or, like Mark, have you given your driver assurances that there is no No2........

Bagwan
25th July 2011, 17:39
Ah, now - have you hired a specific No2? Or, like Mark, have you given your driver assurances that there is no No2........

I would tell him that he is there to race for me .

When and if I decide that he should follow team orders , he will be lauded and rewarded for being dutiful , whether he is on the positive or negative end of the order .
As an owner , one should also never forget that there are repercussions for both drivers .

The drivers do thier best to win for the team .
Doing thier best means that , if the team deems it best to hold station , the driver must do so .

If they do not , they do not work for the team , period .

ArrowsFA1
25th July 2011, 17:55
Bagwan, once you've had the opportunity to put your accusations to Damon Hill come back and let us know how you got on :)

Bagwan
25th July 2011, 20:54
Bagwan, once you've had the opportunity to put your accusations to Damon Hill come back and let us know how you got on :)

Is that all you've got with which to defend his honour ?
Go talk to him ?

Do you have his e-mail address ?
I'd love to drop him a line .

I promise , because I have great respect for anyone who has won a WDC , that I will be very diplomatic in the way in which I ask why he appears so hypocritical here .
I genuinely would love to hear his answer .

ArrowsFA1
25th July 2011, 21:49
Do you have his e-mail address ?
I'd love to drop him a line .
You could try an email for his attention to the BRDC - Home | British Racing Drivers' Club (http://www.brdc.co.uk)

I've given my views on the subject, and we disagree which is fine, but the only person who could answer your accusation is Damon himself so good luck :s mokin:

Bagwan
25th July 2011, 21:52
I'm still trying to find a good arguement to the support the notion Hill has been hypocritical in the first place to be honest. We obviously see things very differently here and I'd most likely look as confused as Damon if that question was put to me.

Damon , do you realize that it makes you look decidely hypocritical when you , yourself , asked for team orders to be employed when you were leading and about to win , yet , here you are , siding with the driver , instead of the team ?



You must , I think , in this situation , explore the different situations Hill was in , with his differing opinions .
He was either on the couch or in the car .

But , he was also looking at it from two different seats , in a sense .

When in the car himself , he had an attacker behind , and felt the need to make his point on the radio .
When , essentially , putting himself in Webber's shoes , he felt differently , aggrieved at being held back by his team .

Those were Ralf's shoes , too .


Hey , Damon can change his mind if he likes . That's perfectly ok with me .
But , he needs to say he has .

ArrowsFA1
25th July 2011, 22:03
Damon , do you realize that it makes you look decidely hypocritical when you , yourself , asked for team orders to be employed when you were leading and about to win , yet , here you are , siding with the driver , instead of the team ?
Damon Hill did not ask for team orders to be used in oder for him to win the 1998 Belgian GP.

Bagwan
25th July 2011, 22:06
You could try an email for his attention to the BRDC - Home | British Racing Drivers' Club (http://www.brdc.co.uk)

I've given my views on the subject, and we disagree which is fine, but the only person who could answer your accusation is Damon himself so good luck :s mokin:

Done .

ArrowsFA1
25th July 2011, 22:36
Done .
:up:

vhatever
27th July 2011, 06:32
Damon Hill did not ask for team orders to be used in oder for him to win the 1998 Belgian GP.

He did a lot worse. He did what's called a veiled threat. Do you think eddie jordan was such a moron that he doesn't fully realize that if his two drivers race each other it could end up badly? Why did he even mention it Jordan knew full well the situation? He didn't need damon hill to say a word, but he did. Not only that but he even said "you better listen" over the radio.

Dave B
28th July 2011, 15:02
To me it hinges on what was in Damon's head at the time. Was his message to Eddie simlply advice from an experienced driver that a collision was very possible in the wet; or was it a veiled threat that he's talk Ralf out rather than hand him the win?

Only Damon knows the true answer, and he ain't telling!

ArrowsFA1
4th August 2011, 09:51
Done .
Any response yet?

Bagwan
4th August 2011, 12:52
Nope .