Mark, you are to remain the gap

[RJL25]

And now, once and for all, we know. Webber is RBR's official number 2

EDIT: maintain the gap, thats what it was meant to be in the title.

[Dave B]

Not good. Suspect he'll be furious. Not bad for a #2 driver.

[ioan]

Horner just explained it on the Austrian TV that they wanted to avoid another Turkey 2010.
Anyway they have the right to enforce team orders this year, and especially now with the stupid EBD rule mess they are not taking risks at all.

[Hawkmoon]

Team orders are legal now so it's OK. Except if your Webber and you don't have a contract for next year.

[christophulus]

Horner just explained it on the Austrian TV that they wanted to avoid another Turkey 2010.
Anyway they have the right to enforce team orders this year, and especially now with the stupid EBD rule mess they are not taking risks at all.

If they wanted that they could've told Vettel to let his faster team mate through :laugh:

[Garry Walker]

So once again Red Bull does their best to screw Webber and help their goldenboy, Rapunzel. But no worries, he has by far the best and fastest car, so even if he keeps up making mistakes on the last lap, his awesome car and Helmet "teamorder" Marko will help him to another WDC.

[RJL25]

Horner just explained it on the Austrian TV that they wanted to avoid another Turkey 2010.
Anyway they have the right to enforce team orders this year, and especially now with the stupid EBD rule mess they are not taking risks at all.

Well what does that say about the team's mangement that they don't even trust their drivers to fight each other without crashing? Disgrace...

[Robinho]

it might be legal now but it was a gay instruction

[Koz]

I really hope he mentions it in the post race press conference.

[ioan]

Well what does that say about the team's mangement that they don't even trust their drivers to fight each other without crashing? Disgrace...

After last year's Turkish GP they have all rights to not trust them, don't you think so?
And they did great to manage the situation in the best interest of Red Bull, so I don't get your point about poor management here.
If you would complain about the pit problems they've got for both drivers I would agree that they did manage this week end poorly.

[christophulus]

Horner looking pretty sheepish on BBC explaining his decision.

[Koz]

Horner sounds like a ****er.

And so is Eddie Jordan for his comments.

[Robinho]

Horner just said that it was made clear to Mark what the "TEAM" expected, that is was a team decision not hos. The way he delivered that statement made me think maybe that was Markko's decision and he maybe didn't agree with it either. Not sure though.

[Hawkmoon]

After last year's Turkish GP they have all rights to not trust them, don't you think so?
And they did great to manage the situation in the best interest of Red Bull, so I don't get your point about poor management here.
If you would complain about the pit problems they've got for both drivers I would agree that they did manage this week end poorly.

Ioan, how come Red Bull are right to do what's in the team's best interest today but last year Ferrari weren't? It wouldn't be because this year you like the driver who benefitted where as last year it was the reverse?

[ioan]

it might be legal now but it was a gay instruction

It sure was a poor showing, but we all can all thank Ferrari for team orders being legal again!
Did you see how Massa didn't attack Alonso at the start today and two weeks ago, even though he came away better and was on the inside of the first corner, and instead he was so careful not to disturb Alonso that he even lost 1 place each time?!
What should RBR do now that even the rules have been rewritten to advantage Ferrari? Leave the sport or use all the allowed means to keep ahead?

[555-04Q2]

Horner just explained it on the Austrian TV that they wanted to avoid another Turkey 2010.
Anyway they have the right to enforce team orders this year, and especially now with the stupid EBD rule mess they are not taking risks at all.

I also saw flashes of Turkey :p :

[Garry Walker]

Horner just explained it on the Austrian TV that they wanted to avoid another Turkey 2010.
Anyway they have the right to enforce team orders this year, and especially now with the stupid EBD rule mess they are not taking risks at all.

At Turkey, Webber was leading the race, when he was told to slow down, Rapunzel was given the opposite order and capabilities. Then Rapunzel drove like the idiot he is and crashed into Webber.
Today he almost rammed Webber out again, despite being much slower. If Red Bull had behaved like they did at Turkey, they would have told Rapunzel to slow down, but of course, they would never do that.

[truefan72]

If they wanted that they could've told Vettel to let his faster team mate through :laugh:

exactly

[ioan]

Ioan, how come Red Bull are right to do what's in the team's best interest today but last year Ferrari weren't? It wouldn't be because this year you like the driver who benefitted where as last year it was the reverse?

It is because this year it's legal while last year it wasn't. I also explained last season, it has to do only with the rules at hand. Any other stupid questions?

[ioan]

At Turkey, Webber was leading the race, when he was told to slow down, Rapunzel was given the opposite order and capabilities. Then Rapunzel drove like the idiot he is and crashed into Webber.
Today he almost rammed Webber out again, despite being much slower. If Red Bull had behaved like they did at Turkey, they would have told Rapunzel to slow down, but of course, they would never do that.

Oh well, the Vettel hater is back in force! :laugh:
Have a beer! :beer:

[555-04Q2]

Horner sounds like a ****er.

And so is Eddie Jordan for his comments.

Eddie is second only to Ron Dennis in the all time F1 w@nker rankings :(

[RJL25]

Watching the press conference, hope Webber says someting, gotta love the drama! Would be unlike him to toe the party line...

[donKey jote]

And so is Eddie Jordan for his comments.

what did he say?

[wedge]

EJ gifted his inaugral win to Hill.

Nothing wrong. Team orders is part of F1 as we all know. Even when team orders were 'illegal' races were called off at the last stint.

If Webber took out Vettel or vice versa RBR would look stupid and not just the drivers.

[Dave B]

Horner looking pretty sheepish on BBC explaining his decision.
"His" decision? That had Markko written all over it.

[pino]

It sure was a poor showing, but we all can all thank Ferrari for team orders being legal again!
Did you see how Massa didn't attack Alonso at the start today and two weeks ago, even though he came away better and was on the inside of the first corner, and instead he was so careful not to disturb Alonso that he even lost 1 place each time?!
What should RBR do now that even the rules have been rewritten to advantage Ferrari? Leave the sport or use all the allowed means to keep ahead?

Are you talking about the same Ferrari that used Team orders when you supported them whilst your beloved Michael was there...and you din't had problems with that ? :rolleyes:

[RJL25]

"His" decision? That had Markko written all over it.

ioan telling you that your WRONG in 3, 2, 1....

[Koz]

what did he say?

That Horner is absolutely right, etc...

[Robinho]

It sure was a poor showing, but we all can all thank Ferrari for team orders being legal again!
Did you see how Massa didn't attack Alonso at the start today and two weeks ago, even though he came away better and was on the inside of the first corner, and instead he was so careful not to disturb Alonso that he even lost 1 place each time?!
What should RBR do now that even the rules have been rewritten to advantage Ferrari? Leave the sport or use all the allowed means to keep ahead?

no problem with it being legal, but RBR have repeatedley said that they would let their drivers race. Until they were actually racing and they decided they didn't like it. I don't know, but I am pretty sure that if the positions had been reversed there would have been no such instruction to hold station

[steveaki13]

Doesn't matter to Vettel, Helmet or Red Bull how they win the title. ;)

[christophulus]

"His" decision? That had Markko written all over it.

"The" decision then? Besides, I doubt Horner would've argued against it even if it was someone else's order.

[Hawkmoon]

Horner swore blue last year that Red Bull would never use team orders. A lot changes in 12 months it would seem.

[RJL25]

no problem with it being legal, but RBR have repeatedley said that they would let their drivers race. Until they were actually racing and they decided they didn't like it. I don't know, but I am pretty sure that if the positions had been reversed there would have been no such instruction to hold station

Yes, and this is the point

[Koz]

"The" decision then? Besides, I doubt Horner would've argued against it even if it was someone else's order.

Mind you he did say "it wasn't my opinion, it was the team's opinion"....

[wedge]

And another question mark on Vettel's ability to overtake for podium position for his inability to pass Vettel.

[ioan]

"His" decision? That had Markko written all over it.

Remind us who is the team manager in charge at RedBull, Marko or Horner?! Marko is only a puppet doing the rounds in order to keep an Austrian close in the team, he's not taking any decision.

[christophulus]

Mind you he did say "it wasn't my opinion, it was the team's opinion"....

So as team principal (or whatever his title) he should be able to overrule it, or if he strongly disagreed he could've had a "radio malfunction" or something.

Anyway, Horner knows who signs his paychecks, and if you're going to annoy one of your drivers you're going to side with the younger one who's running away with the title aren't you?

[Robinho]

Remind us who is the team manager in charge at RedBull, Marko or Horner?! Marko is only a puppet doing the rounds in order to keep an Austrian close in the team, he's not taking any decision.

Markko is much more than a puppet, he is more the puppet master.

[ioan]

Are you talking about the same Ferrari that used Team orders when you supported them whilst your beloved Michael was there...and you din't had problems with that ? :rolleyes:

You can roll your eyes out of your head if you wish to, the orders were legal when MS drove and Todt was in charge. They were illegal last season when Alonso started driving and the italian bunch had taken over the team 'management'.

I know that the difference between legal and illegal is only a couple of letters, but I am sure you know what it means.

Anyway do not worry I am not the only one seeing how Ferrari manipulate the rules again to their advantage, or was it not Ferrari and Sauber who didn't sign an agreement that all other teams agreed to this morning?

[Koz]

Remind us who is the team manager in charge at RedBull, Marko or Horner?! Marko is the puppet-master
I fixed that for you.


So as team principal (or whatever his title) he should be able to overrule it, or if he strongly disagreed he could've had a "radio malfunction" or something.
As above, Horner has no real power or ability to do anything.

[steveaki13]

And another question mark on Vettel's ability to overtake for podium position for his inability to pass Vettel.

Did you mean pass Hamilton.

[ioan]

Markko is much more than a puppet, he is more the puppet master.

The puppet master, if there is one is Mateschitz, and Marko is the puppet.
I find it funny how people believe that either Horner or Newey would take orders from Marko.

I do understand that it's easier for you to believe that the bad guy is Marko and not Horner and/or Newey even though most probably these two took the decision.

[ioan]

I fixed that for you.

How nice of you putting words in others mouths, when you have no other explanation.

[ioan]

Mind you he did say "it wasn't my opinion, it was the team's opinion"....

Spreading the pressure to everyone, he's not stupid either.
He would have taken the exact same decision himself on his own, he's not stupid.

[wedge]

Did you mean pass Hamilton.

ROFLMAO


Yes indeed!

[ioan]

Horner swore blue last year that Red Bull would never use team orders. A lot changes in 12 months it would seem.

Like the EBD rules for example? I wonder who benefited most? Fathom a guess?

[ioan]

no problem with it being legal, but RBR have repeatedley said that they would let their drivers race. Until they were actually racing and they decided they didn't like it. I don't know, but I am pretty sure that if the positions had been reversed there would have been no such instruction to hold station

The day Ferrari gets the rules rewritten it is difficult to lose 7 points that might make a difference in the end, when most probably Webber will be 3rd or 4th in the championship anyway.
And yes, people can change their mind, sometimes it is a very good thing.

[Dave B]

Andrew Benson:

Webber on team orders: "I'm not fine with it, no. Of course I ignored the team and I was battling to the end."

[Brown, Jon Brow]

After the way Reb Bull have treated Webber in the past then I would have ignored the team order if I was in his seat.

[christophulus]

Webber: How did you feel about being told to hold gap? 'Not fine with it. If Fernando retired on last lap, we were fighting for a win.' Webber says there were about four radio conversations about this 'but I didn't say a lot back. I decided to ignore it'

http://twitter.com/#!/mauricehamilton (http://twitter.com/#%21/mauricehamilton)

[christophulus]

Also, Christian Horner apparently doesn't trust his drivers to race:


“The last thing you want to see is both of your drivers in the fence which is how that probably would have ended up.

Webber ignored Red Bull’s order not to pass Vettel | 2011 British Grand Prix (http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2011/07/10/webber-red-bulls-order-pass-vettel/)

[Hawkmoon]

Like the EBD rules for example? I wonder who benefited most? Fathom a guess?

What has one got to do with the other? We're talking about Red Bull's stated position that they would not use team orders being reversed from 1 year to the next. Trying to equate that with a technical regulation change is a stretch at best.

[steveaki13]

ROFLMAO


Yes indeed!

I know Vettel is fast but he can't catch and pass himself.

[Koz]

I await Flavio's comments with baited breath. :D

[555-04Q2]

Think Turkey 2010 people ;)

Wise choice in my view.

[ioan]

And another question mark on Vettel's ability to overtake for podium position for his inability to pass Vettel.

Can you pass yourself? LOL!

[Ari]

Well guys.... we can put all the conspiracy theories behind us now. Webber is to play second fiddle to Vettel. Period. Always.

I wonder how fast Webber could be if they let him race? That question can NEVER be answered definitively. Had enough. Absolute joke of a team are RBR.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Think Turkey 2010 people ;)

Wise choice in my view.

So is Red Bulls view that Vettel is ok to try and pass Webber, and it's ok for Vettel to borrow Marks front wing. But Webber has to stay behind.

[steveaki13]

Although the team orders are legal, I'm am glad Webber chose to ignore them, pity he didn't pass Vettel and see what the Red Bull reaction would have been.

[Ari]

How can anyone defend Vettel or RBR with this one?

It's simple. Webber could have, but didn't.

Dietrich honestly doesn't care to relay orders every race. Marko knows that if Seb can get ahead he does. That's the way it is. Austrian to German..... and some old Aussie bloke.

Horner said RBR would never employ team orders and tonight they did. He lied. He went back on his word. This crap about them both ending up in the fence.... ? What the? Only if Seb decided to drive in to the side of Webber would that happen!

If it were Webber ahead and Vettel chasing the radio transmission would have been vastly different "Mark... I know it's the last lap but conserve fuel..... map 20".

RBR are a joke.

ANYONE who says Vettel is Faster than Webber can now officially go jump because we will NEVER know.

[Mia 01]

Teamorders are legal this year, I don´t like em but this is how it is.

Think the team did the right thing, they extended it´s lead in both championchips.

[steveaki13]

I did wonder if the positions were reversed would the order have come through on the radio.

[ioan]

What has one got to do with the other?

It has a lot to do with it. But then again I can't make blind people see, so ...

[Dave B]

I would understand if the championship was on a knife-edge but Vettel has about a billion point advantage. Hey Ho.

[Garry Walker]

Also, Christian Horner apparently doesn't trust his drivers to race:


Because he knows there is a good chance Vettel will do something stupid and ram out his teammate again.

[ioan]

How can anyone defend Vettel or RBR with this one?

It's simple. Webber could have, but didn't.

Dietrich honestly doesn't care to relay orders every race. Marko knows that if Seb can get ahead he does. That's the way it is. Austrian to German..... and some old Aussie bloke.

Horner said RBR would never employ team orders and tonight they did. He lied. He went back on his word. This crap about them both ending up in the fence.... ? What the? Only if Seb decided to drive in to the side of Webber would that happen!

If it were Webber ahead and Vettel chasing the radio transmission would have been vastly different "Mark... I know it's the last lap but conserve fuel..... map 20".

RBR are a joke.

ANYONE who says Vettel is Faster than Webber can now officially go jump because we will NEVER know.

And you never did something that you previously said you'll never do? Let's get real people, 99% of us did change their mind at least once in a lifetime. I guess we are all liars and we should hang for it. :\

[ioan]

Teamorders are legal this year, I don´t like em but this is how it is.

Think the team did the right thing, they extended it´s lead in both championchips.

Cheers.

[ioan]

Although the team orders are legal, I'm am glad Webber chose to ignore them, pity he didn't pass Vettel and see what the Red Bull reaction would have been.

He didn't ignore them, he had several clear opportunities and he never did it, but it's a good way to save face for everyone.

[555-04Q2]

So is Red Bulls view that Vettel is ok to try and pass Webber, and it's ok for Vettel to borrow Marks front wing. But Webber has to stay behind.

No. They learnt from Turkey 2010 is all I am suggesting.

[Dave B]

Horner about to talk to the BBC if you have access

[ioan]

Horner about to talk to the BBC if you have access

Let us know what he said.

[steveaki13]

He didn't ignore them, he had several clear opportunities and he never did it, but it's a good way to save face for everyone.

Only going by what he said, in interviews. He may have been saving face but I can't judge that. I have to take his word.

[Hawkmoon]

It has a lot to do with it. But then again I can't make blind people see, so ...

Then why don't you explain it to me smart arse? Bestow your wisdom about the inner workings of F1 upon us, oh wise one.

[ioan]

No. They learnt from Turkey 2010 is all I am suggesting.

C'mon, you need to read more into everything that happens.

[ioan]

No. They learnt from Turkey 2010 is all I am suggesting.

C'mon, you need to read more into everything that happens in F1.

[christophulus]

Horner about to talk to the BBC if you have access

He looks so uncomfortable, I don't understand why. It was a legal decision and the sensible one for the team (keep the WDC happy), just morally wrong (in my opinion).

[Dave B]

Horner: it would have ended in the wall. With 3 laps to go and a double podium we had a responsibility to make sure it finished that way. We let them race up until that point but had to make a decision. Mark chose to ignore that.

[Hawkmoon]

He looks so uncomfortable, I don't understand why. It was a legal decision and the sensible one for the team (keep the WDC happy), just morally wrong (in my opinion).

He looks uncomfortable because he tried his damnedest to get Ferrari heavily penalised for doing the exact same thing 12 months ago. He also just broke his word about never using team orders. It doesn't matter whether team orders are legal or not, Horner has just made himself out to be a hypocrite and that can't be a comfortable thing in front of the world's press.

[Dave B]

DC: is it an option to ignore an instruction?

CH: we will have that discussion behind closed doors.... but we had 33 constructors pts and was it worth risking that with 3 laps to go.

[ioan]

Then why don't you explain it to me smart arse? Bestow your wisdom about the inner workings of F1 upon us, oh wise one.

Sorry, no time to lose.

[Dave B]

Damon Hill: understand the investment... but you can't stop racing drivers racing

Horner: and we didn't stop them until the last 3 laps.

[ioan]

He looks uncomfortable because he tried his damnedest to get Ferrari heavily penalised for doing the exact same thing 12 months ago.

He was right, team orders were illegal back then.

[Dave B]

And now EJ is being a dick.

[ioan]

And now EJ is being a dick.

Nothing new then.

[steveaki13]

Although I am not a fan of Horners generally, I don't think you can say its his fault to protect his teams points when the rules say you can cool the drivers off.

Whether we agree or disagree with the rules as they are, they are the rules and teams can use them as they wish.

As for Red Bull, they have both Championships in the bag so they are not affecting the championship results, just the distance they are won by.

[Whyzars]

So once again Red Bull does their best to screw Webber and help their goldenboy, Rapunzel. But no worries, he has by far the best and fastest car, so even if he keeps up making mistakes on the last lap, his awesome car and Helmet "teamorder" Marko will help him to another WDC.

Either Webber broke his leg again in the off-season or he has now become a highly paid test driver for Red Bull. His interview that was shown in Australia before the race tonight was not the interview of someone who is really fussed whether he drives for Red Bull - or anyone for that matter. Obviously he's still negotiating and it would be interesting to know what other options he has on the table.

Vettel was probably driving in "Prius mode" so they needed Webber to back off which he did - and he didn't bag them for it. Webber should be asking for another $5million for that effort.

A number 2 driver that is a team player has got to be worth something... :)

[Hawkmoon]

He was right, team orders were illegal back then.

Bull****. Horner didn't say Red Bull wouldn't use team orders because they were illegal, he said they wouldn't use them because they were against the way Red Bull went racing. Seems Red Bull's racing philosophy has changed now that they're world champions.

[Hawkmoon]

As for Red Bull, they have both Championships in the bag so they are not affecting the championship results, just the distance they are won by.

That excuse didn't stop Ferrari from getting vilified back in 2002.

[steveaki13]

That excuse didn't stop Ferrari from getting vilified back in 2002.

I didn't complain then particuarly and I don't particuarly complain now. Only my opinion.

[ioan]

Bull****. Horner didn't say Red Bull wouldn't use team orders because they were illegal, he said they wouldn't use them because they were against the way Red Bull went racing. Seems Red Bull's racing philosophy has changed now that they're world champions.

What part of rules were illegal in 2010 don't you agree with it?!
And what do you know about what Horner thought when he said that?

All we know is that Ferrari did use team orders when these were illegal, and RBR used them when legal (along with all other teams including Ferrari). Not sure what your problem is?!

[ioan]

Same here. :)

[George6890]

I really don't think Horner had too much of a say in it today, he reminded me of David Cameron (even more so!) in that awkward interview with the BBC...

But let's speculate that it was Marko and the higher echelons at RBR who issued the order from the top down. Why? From a marketing perspective it's understandable as Vettel is far more marketable than Sebby, he's younger, he is the WDC, he has German as his first language and Mark is in the twilight of his career. But from a racing point of view it seemed entirely nonsensical as Vettel would lose a few points which considering his margin over 'Nando and Mark is pretty big. Then for Horner to say something along the lines of "we didn't want both drivers to end up in the fence" (or words to that effect, I've forgotten the exact quote, sorry) made the whole thing seem even more ridiculous as surely, Red Bull have learnt from Turkey 2010.

[N. Jones]

So once again Red Bull does their best to screw Webber and help their goldenboy, Rapunzel. But no worries, he has by far the best and fastest car, so even if he keeps up making mistakes on the last lap, his awesome car and Helmet "teamorder" Marko will help him to another WDC.

Well, yeah. This incident surprises you how, exactly?

[steveaki13]

People change opinions and go back on decisions and things they said all the time in real life, why do people think F1 teams and politicians should never change stance.

[PSfan]

I seem to recall another incident in Turkey last year when Button was repeatedly told to slow down and conserve fuel... back when the team orders had to be hidden... Every team does this... I am most impressed that Horner actually acknowledges that Webber ignored the order to hold position. Its a shame they didn't tangle and both RBR's dnf'd Vettel would still have a very commanding (I can sit out 2 races and still have the lead) lead, while Webber would have been looking real pretty sitting down in 5th place instead of 2nd where he is in now! Hey Mark was a potential 6 point gain worth looking like a complete idiot?

[Whyzars]

A number 2 driver that is a team player has got to be worth something... :)

I just read on another thread that Webber was ignoring the team order.

I don't care what anyone says, he has not had the same equipment this year.

It'll be interesting to see where Webber ends up in 2012...

[IceWizard]

I don't really see the issue. Surely most of the teams would have told their drivers to hold position in a similar situation? Formula 1 is after all a team sport and team orders are legal, unlike last year.

[ioan]

I don't really see the issue. Surely most of the teams would have told their drivers to hold position in a similar situation? Formula 1 is after all a team sport and team orders are legal, unlike last year.

There is no issue, just some bruised egos and Ferrari fans trying to paint a legal team order being worse then an illegal one. Typical stuff.

[PSfan]

It'll be interesting to see where Webber ends up in 2012...

At this rate... Probably Indycar :p :

[ioan]

You had a big problem with it when Ferrari did simply because one of your favourite drivers (Felipe Massa) was forced to give up a lead he had earnt. You were very vocal back then, but its nice to see your views now you are on the opposite side of the fence. Thanks for showing that regardless of driver favourism, your views are not affected.. lol.

Bla bla bla. Legal vs Illegal! I'm sure even trolls like you get it. LOL!

[Whyzars]

At this rate... Probably Indycar :p :

:)


Actually, all jokes aside, in the interview they played here in Australia he was saying things that left me feeling that retirement was a real option for him. Sick of the travel and all that.

I'd like to see him do a couple of seasons with Ferrari before he retires but that's just me.

[ioan]

:)
Actually, all jokes aside, in the interview they played here in Australia he was saying things that left me feeling that retirement was a real option for him. Sick of the travel and all that.

I can understand him.

[ioan]

I should bookmark all these they are hilarious. :laugh:

That's because I'm not posting rubbish like you. :p
I wonder who would bookmark your ramblings?! :laugh:

[ioan]

Now thats a personal remark! No need.

Because your post wasn't exactly that?

What about karting trolls, bruised egos and so on?! Bitter medicine eh?! Man up! :p

[ioan]

?

I knew that you'll lose connection at some point. :)

[PSfan]

Now thats a personal remark! No need.

For you information it was that Ferrari move that has enabled Red Bull to take advantage of this today, so there lies the irony. ;)

Actually, and the Ferrari move (giving the order to Massa via Alonso is faster then you message instead of the normal conserve fuel, engine over heating, tire deflating ussual BS they use to hide team orders with) was inspired by a comment by Max Mosley about how teams should tell drivers when one is faster then the other, and its not team orders blah blah blah, which was inspired by Red Bulls Vettel/Webber clash at Turkey... So this whole team orders isn't illegal any more... its thanks to Red Bull :p :

[PSfan]

Thank you Red Bull and Ferrari for bringing in the change then lol.

What, no love for Max for his part in it? hehe

[Bagwan]

So , Mark ignored the orders .
That's reportedly , four times he ignored orders .

So , that means Sebastian beat him , fair and square then , does it not ?
There may have been orders , but they weren't carried out .
Mark couldn't make the pass , therefore was number two because he couldn't do it , not because he was told not to do it .

Now that Webber has admitted it , and the team has acknowledged this fact , Mark is clearly out , not just number two .

And , rightly so , for the petulant little millionaire .
Pretty sad for a number two driver .

[Dave B]

It seems the orders were ignored by Mark indeed. I think your last comment is abit below the belt though Bagwan. I don't blame Mark for trying in the last two laps to get by. Alonso took longer on Lewis and Lewis took longer on Massa so its not inconceivable that Mark simply ran out of time. It was close none the less, and was an exciting race.

PS: One thing I do like about Mark is the fact he doesn't hide behind the teams PR in times of frustration. The Silverstone post qualifying press conference of 2010 showed this and Seb was left looking very uncomfortable. I'm glad professionalism gets thrown out of the window every once in a while.

Well said.

[djparky]

I don't know why people are getting so wound up about this- as team boss it's CH's job to get the maximum points for the team, Seb & Mark are employees of RBR and will get asked to do certain things whether they like it or not- if they don't like it they can make alternative arrangements.

Did CH do the right thing for the team? Absolutely- in that position the other teams would have done exactly the same thing. Plus the RBR drivers have history of colliding with each other- he would have looked pretty bloody stupid if they'd run into each on the last lap.

Seb has comprehensively beaten Webber all year- so he is defacto number 2 anyway- purely on pace

It was quite common (legal or otherwise) to race until the second pit stop and then hold station until the end. - this is not the same as the Ferrari debacle last year nor did they ask Webber to pull over and bend over for his team mate the way Schuey's minions were required to do so during his time at Ferrari

[ioan]

I could slap him across the face if he's lucky in a way of thanking him. I have it good authority he likes a good slapping.. ;)

We all heard he likes it but not on the face, hat would be the wrong end you are thinking about slapping!

[ioan]

Let's remember that Ferrari asked Massa to move over for Alonso, while here Webber was asked to keep the gap and not attack in order to avoid a possible crash ( a la Turkey 2010). I know it's subtle but it is a difference because no change has been made to the track positions through team orders today and it is anyone's guess if Webber would have managed to get by or not without the order from Horner.

[Retro Formula 1]

ioan. We all know you flim-flam with extreme prejudice depending on which driver you like / hate is involved.

Team orders are legal, Horner is a hypocrite and Webber will always be number 2 in the team. End of story.

[ioan]

ioan. We all know you flim-flam with extreme prejudice depending on which driver you like / hate is involved.

Team orders are legal, Horner is a hypocrite and Webber will always be number 2 in the team. End of story.

Just like everyone else around here.
Which makes us no better then Horner and thus we have no ground to judge him.

[Retro Formula 1]

Seb has done a great job this year and deserves the title.

OK, the car is the best but he still has to deliver which he has.

It's a pity Webber is the unwitting number 2 and even with the massive points lead that Seb has, they still try to stop Mark challenging. It does make you wonder if Webber really had a fair shot.

[F1boat]

Ferrari would have done the same. And Vettel has really crushed Webber so far this year. Easily. The order was normal, IMO.
And legal.

[F1boat]

It was the right order. Ferrari also did the right thing last year, they were fighting for the WDC. And yes, it was illegal - that's why they were fined xD

[driveace]

Just a pity really that Mark could not convert his qualifying pole into a start to finish win,then RBR would not be having to issue team orders as they did today.With such a massive points advantage,why not tell Seb to concede position to his faster team mate,and any replacement next year for Mark at RBR will know,they are going there as a lap dog

[Brown, Jon Brow]

It was the right order. Ferrari also did the right thing last year, they were fighting for the WDC. And yes, it was illegal - that's why they were fined xD

If I'd have been Christian I would have given that order. But if I was Mark I would have ignored it.

[donKey jote]

How about renaming the thread to:
Mark, you are to remain the donkey :vader:

[vhatever]

Webber was a bit of a donkey, aren't they also called "jack asses"? That was really stupid from Mark. This WDC is not over with, and with the FIA cheating for both ferrari and mclaren, it could turn on a dime. Both vettel and webber taking each other out would have been a major step in that direction. I don't know who mark thinks he's kidding. He's not anywhere near as good as seb and he needs to just accept and move on before red bull moves him on. Onlr reason webber was even near to vettel is the cock up in the pitlane that cost him 10 seconds or whatever it was.

[vhatever]

Vettel didn't have any KERS. Ferrari isn't going to take someone who can't listen to orders and constantly does bonehead things. You webheads are nuts if you think they want a worse n2 driver than Massa. Massa is probably just as fast and he listens.

[ioan]

How about renaming the thread to:
Mark, you are to remain the donkey :vader:

Certainly easier to implement than remaining a gap!
Funny thread title this is. Looks like the starter was in two minds and couldn't chose the right one! :D

[Hawkmoon]

There is no issue, just some bruised egos and Ferrari fans trying to paint a legal team order being worse then an illegal one. Typical stuff.

Once again you miss the point entirely. Our issue is not that team orders were issued, I think Red Bull did the right thing, it's that Horner has been caught out using team orders to favour Vettel when he said that it's something he and Red Bull wouldn't do.

Surely you can see why a Ferrari fan would be annoyed with Horner for crticising Ferrari so vehemently last year over team orders and then doing the same thing this year. It's not team orders, it's about Horner/Red Bull being hypocrites.

[vhatever]

Once again you miss the point entirely. Our issue is not that team orders were issued, I think Red Bull did the right thing, it's that Horner has been caught out using team orders to favour Vettel when he said that it's something he and Red Bull wouldn't do.

Surely you can see why a Ferrari fan would be annoyed with Horner for crticising Ferrari so vehemently last year over team orders and then doing the same thing this year. It's not team orders, it's about Horner/Red Bull being hypocrites.


Ahh, you mean he said that when it was illegal to issue team orders?

[Hawkmoon]

Ahh, you mean he said that when it was illegal to issue team orders?

Horner was against team orders period. Their legality wasn't the issue.

[Ari]

Seb has done a great job this year and deserves the title.

OK, the car is the best but he still has to deliver which he has.

It's a pity Webber is the unwitting number 2 and even with the massive points lead that Seb has, they still try to stop Mark challenging. It does make you wonder if Webber really had a fair shot.

No it doesn't. It answers the question if even there was one.

[Ari]

Horner was against team orders period. Their legality wasn't the issue.



Correct. He said they let their drivers race and would never employ team orders.

Yet, yesterday they did. :s he said they let em race all race except the end, well.... when Webber could pass. Ruined the race for mine. Would have loved to have seen the last lap scrap.

Well, Horner daid it would have ended in the wall. Sounds like they have no confidence in their drivers abilities, thats a major problem for mine. I love that the Maccas are allowed to race.

Ultimately, if you've lost your way.... just read my signature. Racing is two drivers in the cars, not the bull**** that happens over the pitwall with guys on mobile phones.

[Ari]

You believe in Santy Claus too?

[Ari]

So , Mark ignored the orders .
That's reportedly , four times he ignored orders .

So , that means Sebastian beat him , fair and square then , does it not ?
There may have been orders , but they weren't carried out .
Mark couldn't make the pass , therefore was number two because he couldn't do it , not because he was told not to do it .

Now that Webber has admitted it , and the team has acknowledged this fact , Mark is clearly out , not just number two .

And , rightly so , for the petulant little millionaire .
Pretty sad for a number two driver .

Do you still believe in Santa Claus?

Mark had at least two clear opportunities to take Seb on the last lap but did not. He may have said he tried to pass, but don't you think he's just playing the game for the team?

Fact is, we will never truly know as Horner changed all that with his call for team orders. Your rant above is absurd if not silly.

Even ioan has stated that Mark could have taken Seb. Pretty sure Mark was very keen to demonstrate he could have got the job done.

Btw, whe Ferrari did it it was illegal. When Red Bull did it, it was legal. The difference? Red Bull said it was not the way their team works. Both drivers have equal chance, there are no team orders..... that's not their philosophy. Looks like ether philosophy changes with the circumstances.

After Webber getting so close this race I fully expect his kers to not be functioning next race. Pitty.

[vhatever]

What a sad sorry joke the red bull/vettel haters are. You complete ignore reality. He was asked if he would have done what ferrari did if he was in stefano's place. And he said "no, we let or drivers race". what is he supposed to say? yes, even though that's cheating currently? He's not going to say he's going to cheat in F1. What a bunch of hater nonsense.

He also went on to say that Massa deserved to win that day because: 1. he still in the championship picture, and 2. Massa was just the better driver that day. Can we say the same for webber on either instance? Vettel blew him away at the start and only had his race compromised by a pit screw up and his KERs going haywire. And BTw, looks like horner was dead right to give the order. Webber couldn't get past Vettel so it was an unneeded risk for the team.

[vhatever]

So you are calling Webber a liar, then? Why would he lie about something like that? He virtually guarantees no top team is going to want to touch him with a ten foot pole now.

[Hawkmoon]

What a sad sorry joke the red bull/vettel haters are. You complete ignore reality. He was asked if he would have done what ferrari did if he was in stefano's place. And he said "no, we let or drivers race". what is he supposed to say? yes, even though that's cheating currently? He's not going to say he's going to cheat in F1. What a bunch of hater nonsense.

He also went on to say that Massa deserved to win that day because: 1. he still in the championship picture, and 2. Massa was just the better driver that day. Can we say the same for webber on either instance? Vettel blew him away at the start and only had his race compromised by a pit screw up and his KERs going haywire. And BTw, looks like horner was dead right to give the order. Webber couldn't get past Vettel so it was an unneeded risk for the team.

I think we can. Webber is as much in the title fight as Massa was last year. Webber was also faster than Vettel in the closing stages of the race and had every right to challenge Vettel. Until, of course, Red Bull ordered him not to.

Criticising someone doesn't make you a "hater".

[PSfan]

I love that the Maccas are allowed to race.


giggle... snicker... HAHAHAHAHA... cough cough cough... Maccas are allowed to fffmmfmmm BWAHAHAHAHAHA race... hehehe

I suppose Turkey 2010... Button getting the repeated message about slowing down to conserve fuel, guess you probably took it face at value, and not the hidden team order to not race your team mate during the closing stages of a race like the majority of people watching...

[PSfan]

After Webber getting so close this race I fully expect his kers to not be functioning next race. Pitty.

The real pitty is that after Silverstone, Red Bull racing doesn't have the balls to sit Webber out a couple races for his childish outburst. And you pretending teams never tell their drivers towards the end of a race to hold position. I would almost bet that Webber was forced to sit back behind Heidfeld on a few occasions over at Williams, he should already know how this game is played, he's been in F1 long enough!!! If by some miracle Webber is ahead of Vettel in the future, and in say the final 5 laps or so of the race, Vettel attempts to overtake him with nothing else to gain then a single position, then you might have a point. Until then, you are just making yourself look as mature as Webber is... and that's not a compliment...

[markabilly]

everyone here is confused. Horner was worried that Mark Dubwa was losing pace to Vettel, so they wanted him to try to stay up with Seb....so they told him to keeep the gap

[markabilly]

ain't there are another thread on red bull telling mark to stay up with vettel???????

[mstillhere]

Ioan, how come Red Bull are right to do what's in the team's best interest today but last year Ferrari weren't? It wouldn't be because this year you like the driver who benefitted where as last year it was the reverse?

See, last year my impression was that what got everybody angry was how immoral, how unfair it was to have team orders. It was for many more of a moral issue than anything else. How Ferrari was shallow and how wrong they were to have a second driver, and blah, blah, blah. Last year I posted saying that Ferrari AND everybody else did it. The only difference was that Ferrari got caught and the other teams did not although it's now famous what Webber said last year:"Not bad for a 2nd driver". Now, finally the truth has come out. RB had and has team orders and so does McLaren with Button as driver number 2. No question about it.
All the RB talk that all drivers are the same that they are free to race each other it's just a bunch of c.......p. If it had been Ferrari asking Massa to do the same thing today right now everyone would be up in arms despite the legality of the action. It's not about the legality or not of the action. It's all about if it's Ferrari that does it or not.

[mstillhere]

Well guys.... we can put all the conspiracy theories behind us now. Webber is to play second fiddle to Vettel. Period. Always.

I wonder how fast Webber could be if they let him race? That question can NEVER be answered definitively. Had enough. Absolute joke of a team are RBR.

Well now we have the answer to the question: why Webber's car is always slower than Vette'ls.

[Valve Bounce]

I also saw flashes of Turkey :p :

.............poo and chicken poo and bird poo. :D

[mstillhere]

He looks uncomfortable because he tried his damnedest to get Ferrari heavily penalised for doing the exact same thing 12 months ago. He also just broke his word about never using team orders. It doesn't matter whether team orders are legal or not, Horner has just made himself out to be a hypocrite and that can't be a comfortable thing in front of the world's press.

Horner always lied about it. Now we know it.

[mstillhere]

I don't think people here are that bothered by the fact Red Bull issued team orders, rather the fact Horner was quite outspoken when Ferrari issued similar orders last season. He stated orders of this nature are against the ethics of Red Bull Racing and this was not something they would do with their drivers. This incident is identical to that of McLaren in Turkey last year and it was a wise order from a teams POV. I also don't blame Mark from an individuals perspective for actually wanting to push until the very end, and he had the pace to challenge but simply ran out of time and laps. Whats good for the team often means one of the drivers lose out and Mark was strong enough to follow his own goal and deal with the consequences later. I think he'll get alot of respect for that in the long run. :)

I agree with you. Team orders have existed at least as long as F1 has been around. It was Horner's statements about how immoral it was what Ferrari did - which has nothing to do with illegality or legality of the issue - and how everyone reacted in here - especially the Ferrari bashers - that makes what happened today in England a strong contradiction to what Horner said lat year.

[mstillhere]

Nice!!

[steveaki13]

But why because when trying to get Ferrari penalized and put them under pressure last year by saying he was against teamorders, should he or the team not change their mind now they are legal.

Why do people believe people in F1 all the time.

If a team found a way to use to traction control without anyone knowing, after they had all signed and given their word to ban the system, would anyone be suprised. Teams do whatever they can to win or get the best results, whatever they have to do.

They don't see their 2nd driver about pass their chosen driver and think no wait we can't use team orders and let them collide.

All I am really saying is teams and personel lie and make U turns on stances and decisions. Some need to realise this and accept sometimes F1 is a cold hard sport.

[The Black Knight]

And now, once and for all, we know. Webber is RBR's official number 2

EDIT: maintain the gap, thats what it was meant to be in the title.

Mark ignored the team order anyway. As far as I know his contract states that he is not a number two and is on level pecking with Sebastien, therefore, by default, that would mean he is also, under the terms of his contract, allowed to race Vettel under all circumstances. Team orders or not, I'd imagine he could argue that such a team order is in breach of his contract and he was quite entitled to ignore it and rightly so, in my opinion.

It's pretty clear now that there is a number one at Red Bull and that is Sebasiten. I think we could all agree that were positions reversed yesterday that Horner wouldn't have told Sebastien to maintain the gap. Horner is aware that Mark ignored his order and he clearly wasn't happy about that after the race either. IN YOUR FACE, Christian.

[Mia 01]

Teamorders are a bit cruel, but in all teams their is politics, has always was, It happens this year that such orders are legal, again.

Loosing 33 points wasn´t on the table. Horner ´did the right thing.

[SGWilko]

So , Mark ignored the orders .
That's reportedly , four times he ignored orders .

So , that means Sebastian beat him , fair and square then , does it not ?
There may have been orders , but they weren't carried out .
Mark couldn't make the pass , therefore was number two because he couldn't do it , not because he was told not to do it .

Now that Webber has admitted it , and the team has acknowledged this fact , Mark is clearly out , not just number two .

And , rightly so , for the petulant little millionaire .
Pretty sad for a number two driver .

Mark was being careful to back out whenever Rapunzel shut the door so as not to allow Rapunzel to act out a repeat of Turkey 2010.

There is still a big question mark above Rapunzel's head as to his ability to overtake - he couldn't get by the McLaren. Chopping up your team mate because you know the team is on your side is, as Kenny Rogers would say, Yellow!

[F1boat]

There is still a big question mark above Rapunzel's head as to his ability to overtake - he couldn't get by the McLaren. Chopping up your team mate because you know the team is on your side is, as Kenny Rogers would say, Yellow!

The fact that you call Vettel with that name show how biased are you. Vettel couldn't overtake Hamilton because at that time only the ideal line was really dry. It was risky to try from the outside of it.
And, Vettel did very well against Massa.

[The Black Knight]

The fact that you call Vettel with that name show how biased are you. Vettel couldn't overtake Hamilton because at that time only the ideal line was really dry. It was risky to try from the outside of it.
And, Vettel did very well against Massa.

Yet when Hamilton overtook Alonso the track was much wetter and he was completely on the wet...

[SGWilko]

The fact that you call Vettel with that name show how biased are you. Vettel couldn't overtake Hamilton because at that time only the ideal line was really dry. It was risky to try from the outside of it.
And, Vettel did very well against Massa.

Moi? Biased......?

Never! ;)

[SGWilko]

Yet when Hamilton overtook Alonso the track was much wetter and he was completely on the wet...

Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, don't tell him that....

[F1boat]

Yet when Hamilton overtook Alonso the track was much wetter and he was completely on the wet...

Yes, I think that the track was much wetter, so neither car had great grip.

[Tumbo]

Last yr I attacked Ferrari for no reason other than the illegality of the action and I maintain that what they did was wrong. I'm no fan of team orders but now they are again legal and so what we saw last nite while causing rage amongst the very vocal Webber fanbase was nothing wrong.

Fact remains though that Webber showed himself to still have the slowest start of the top 10 drivers on the grid (even though he is in a Red Bull and clearly faster than the others), he claims himself (as widely reported in the Australian media) that he disobeyed team orders YET he DID finish behind Seb; this shows that clearly he doesn't have that extra bit required...........plus when you factor in the pitstop issues he really was lucky to be able to sit on the gearbox of the current WDC by the end of the race.

Everyone loves to bring up Silverstone 2010 and the whole front wing issue yet everyone ignores the fact that BOTH Vettel and Webber claimed they didn't want it; it was only when he had it taken off him that Webber started to have his little moan about unfairness in the team. End of the day had he not driven himself off the road in Korea he would have been WDC - Webber is a brilliant no.2 driver but end of the day that is all he will be; if he really wants to be taken seriously he should take his chance (didn't see any 'missing wheel' issues in his pitstops last yr ala Ferrari ;) ) which he failed to do and cost himself the championship or else follow the lead of other drivers who have gone to 'greener' pastures and managed to achieve not very much.

As for what I read further back about Webber sitting back behind Heidfeld at Williams - seems that it is the world against Webber; no team wants him to win; it's all a big conspiracy; maybe it's just that he isn't good enough ;)

[The Black Knight]

Yes, I think that the track was much wetter, so neither car had great grip.

Ahaha, it is amazing the excuses some people will come up with. Have a look at it again. There is a clear dry line where Alonso is on the track. I was really surprised at the time that Hamilton made it stick because Alonso had far more grip on the drier part of the circuit.

[markabilly]

So , Mark ignored the orders .
That's reportedly , four times he ignored orders .

So , that means Sebastian beat him , fair and square then , does it not ?
There may have been orders , but they weren't carried out .
Mark couldn't make the pass , therefore was number two because he couldn't do it , not because he was told not to do it .

Now that Webber has admitted it , and the team has acknowledged this fact , Mark is clearly out , not just number two .

And , rightly so , for the petulant little millionaire .
Pretty sad for a number two driver .


bingo!!!

The boy is a winner. For your prize you have a choice between a "I Love Hammie" cap or a copy of the last printing of the News of The World.

Now if you want something smaller, well let us see, there is always the SG brain....
only one left as Henners gave his away several weeks ago to charlie Whitig.

[SGWilko]

Henners gave his away several weeks ago.

He does a lot of work for charity apparently, but doesn't like to talk about it, mate.......

[SGWilko]

:laugh:

I doubt he'll get it, but it's worth a chuckle. ;)

[Bagwan]

Do you still believe in Santa Claus?

Mark had at least two clear opportunities to take Seb on the last lap but did not. He may have said he tried to pass, but don't you think he's just playing the game for the team?

Fact is, we will never truly know as Horner changed all that with his call for team orders. Your rant above is absurd if not silly.

Even ioan has stated that Mark could have taken Seb. Pretty sure Mark was very keen to demonstrate he could have got the job done.

Btw, whe Ferrari did it it was illegal. When Red Bull did it, it was legal. The difference? Red Bull said it was not the way their team works. Both drivers have equal chance, there are no team orders..... that's not their philosophy. Looks like ether philosophy changes with the circumstances.

After Webber getting so close this race I fully expect his kers to not be functioning next race. Pitty.

Thee called four times , and Mark said he ignored the calls .
You suggesting he was "playing the game for the team" , suggests you don't believe him .

I do .

The issue for me is not in whether team orders are legal or illegal .

The issue here is whether the orders were followed .

If I was to pay you millions to work for me , I would expect you to do what I ask of you .

When Massa had his little fit last year I wished him fired .
Mark deserves the same .

He should take his pout and his millions and go race bicycles .

[SGWilko]

Thee called four times , and Mark said he ignored the calls .
You suggesting he was "playing the game for the team" , suggests you don't believe him .

I do .

The issue for me is not in whether team orders are legal or illegal .

The issue here is whether the orders were followed .

If I was to pay you millions to work for me , I would expect you to do what I ask of you .

When Massa had his little fit last year I wished him fired .
Mark deserves the same .

He should take his pout and his millions and go race bicycles .

It all depends on what is written in the contract, doesn't it?

And remember that RB is the team that went on record spouting its holier than thou 'we'll never use team orders' line......

[markabilly]

I doubt he'll get it, but it's worth a chuckle. ;)


I heard Charlie decided to put it up for sale on ebay, but I doubt he will get it

[SGWilko]

I heard the recepient decided to put it up for sale on ebay, but I doubt he will get it

Got nowt to do with Messrs Enfield and Whitehouse. You mumbling again?

[Bagwan]

bingo!!!

The boy is a winner. For your prize you have a choice between a "I Love Hammie" cap or a copy of the last printing of the News of The World.

Now if you want something smaller, well let us see, there is always the SG brain....
only one left as Henners gave his away several weeks ago to charlie Whitig.

Nah , Billy , I couldn't take Lewis's hat away from him .

Maybe I could make a hat out of that newspaper , though .

[SGWilko]

At present you are the highest bidder which is rather flattering.. :p

What are you lot saying? Can't work it out without a Brian.....

[Bagwan]

It all depends on what is written in the contract, doesn't it?

And remember that RB is the team that went on record spouting its holier than thou 'we'll never use team orders' line......

Do you think that it is written into his contract that he is free to disobey orders ?
Is that the "Hear no evil" clause ?

[SGWilko]

Do you think that it is written into his contract that he is free to disobey orders ?
Is that the "Hear no evil" clause ?

I have no idea what's in there. But they are 'free to race' right? Well, according to Diddy they are apparently.....

If he (Webber) is not a No.2 (driver, not excrement), and they don't employ team orders ya da ya da etc......

You get the point.

[markabilly]

At present you are the highest bidder which is rather flattering.. :p

yeah, i figure 12 cents and free shipping, that is a good deal. my kid has got this gold fish that could use it.....that fish is always free to race

[The Black Knight]

I have no idea what's in there. But they are 'free to race' right? Well, according to Diddy they are apparently.....

If he (Webber) is not a No.2 (driver, not excrement), and they don't employ team orders ya da ya da etc......

You get the point.

AFAIK, it's in Mark's contract that they are on level pecking and there are no number 1s in the team. This alone leaves him free to race Vettel. If Horner can't live with that then tough titty.

[SGWilko]

yeah, i figure 12 cents and free shipping, that is a good deal. my kid has got this gold fish that could use it.....that fish is always free to race

But, wouldn't you need to remind said goldfish of his (or her) right to race every 3 seconds or so due to the errrrrrrr...

Shoot, what was I saying? Only bloody gone and forgotten.....

[SGWilko]

AFAIK, it's in Mark's contract that they are on level pecking and there are no number 1s in the team. This alone leaves him free to race Vettel. If Horner can't live with that then tough titty.

Bitty! Mmmmmmmmmm.

[vhatever]

It all depends on what is written in the contract, doesn't it?

And remember that RB is the team that went on record spouting its holier than thou 'we'll never use team orders' line......


They never said they would "never use team orders".

[SGWilko]

They never said they would "never use team orders".

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/motor-racing/red-bull-owner-against-team-orders-2129448.html

PS - Always like to keep my audience riveted! ;)

[Bagwan]

I have no idea what's in there. But they are 'free to race' right? Well, according to Diddy they are apparently.....

If he (Webber) is not a No.2 (driver, not excrement), and they don't employ team orders ya da ya da etc......

You get the point.

No , they are paid to race .

They are not paid to say no .

[SGWilko]

No , they are paid to race .

They are not paid to say no .

I think Mark was racing, that's the whole point.

He also didn't say no, just got on with racing.

[Bagwan]

If you were to pay me millions to drive your car , and I decided to risk both of your cars , rather than obey your orders to stay behind another driver , would you feel I was a team player , or just one that is in it to win it for myself ?

Would you feel the same way , and find me employable , if I had been able to get up to try a pass , and taken both cars out ?

[SGWilko]

If you were to pay me millions to drive your car , and I decided to risk both of your cars , rather than obey your orders to stay behind another driver , would you feel I was a team player , or just one that is in it to win it for myself ?

Would you feel the same way , and find me employable , if I had been able to get up to try a pass , and taken both cars out ?

For a start, I'd like to think I employ drivers who can overtake.

If you caused an accident on purpose, you'd get a talking to. If you your team mate caused the accident, he'd get a talking to.

Back to real life, and that argument falls down due to Seb's track record - unable to overtake and takes out his team mate.

Webber could have made the pass clean, but would Seb chop?

Again?

[ArrowsFA1]

The order should be "you are free to race but don't take each other out". It's the age old team order.

If Red Bull don't trust their drivers to race without crashing into each other then perhaps they're employing the wrong driver(s).

[F1boat]

If you were to pay me millions to drive your car , and I decided to risk both of your cars , rather than obey your orders to stay behind another driver , would you feel I was a team player , or just one that is in it to win it for myself ?

Would you feel the same way , and find me employable , if I had been able to get up to try a pass , and taken both cars out ?

If I pay millions of cash to some guy and he risks damaging my whole effort, I'd fire him immediately. ;)

[F1boat]

Well, if RBR are so bad to MW, I guess that he can leave the team...

[vhatever]

Red Bull owner against team orders - Motor Racing, Sport - The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/motor-racing/red-bull-owner-against-team-orders-2129448.html)

PS - Always like to keep my audience riveted! ;)



"But we have never even thought about it as long as both our drivers remain in the hunt for the championship"

[ioan]

Horner always lied about it. Now we know it.

Not that it makes any difference, but hey it must be difficult to support a team like Ferrari so anything that gives you a glimmer of hope is to be cherished! :laugh:

[ioan]

Nah , Billy , I couldn't take Lewis's hat away from him .

Maybe I could make a hat out of that newspaper , though .

:laugh: :up:
Good choice, that news paper will also fetch more then a Hamy cam in years to come, when Ali G will be just a small blip in some statistic books.

[ioan]

But, wouldn't you need to remind said goldfish of his (or her) right to race every 3 seconds or so due to the errrrrrrr...

It's not unlike of Hamy's brain farts, is it?

[ioan]

Back to real life, and that argument falls down due to Seb's track record - unable to overtake and takes out his team mate.

Seb can overtake, just ask Button. But then again only a fool would try to overtake Hamilton, as Massa if you don't believe it!

[555-04Q2]

A report in our Daily News today reported that Horner is going to sit Mark down and explain to him that they did not want to jeoporadise 33 points with a possible collision. Horner stated that it is a team sport and hundreds of people got the cars to the track for raceday, and that Mark needed to think of the team and not himself. Fair enough then. F1 is a team sport after all.

[SGWilko]

A report in our Daily News today reported that Horner is going to sit Mark down and explain to him that they did not want to jeoporadise 33 points with a possible collision. Horner stated that it is a team sport and hundreds of people got the cars to the track for raceday, and that Mark needed to think of the team and not himself. Fair enough then. F1 is a team sport after all.

They might want to take minutes then, and ask Seb to learn by osmosis.......

[555-04Q2]

They might want to take minutes then, and ask Seb to learn by osmosis.......

I think everryone in Red Bull learnt from Turkey 2010. If they hadn't, they would be a bunch of idiots!!! Rather 33 points than nothing and a couple of wrecked cars again.

[SGWilko]

"But we have never even thought about it as long as both our drivers remain in the hunt for the championship"

They are both in the hunt, it is not even down to the mathematical possibility stuff yet.

Want a plaster for the whole you've shot in your foot? I've got some nice Disney ones my kids have to help take the pain away..... ;)

[555-04Q2]

They are both in the hunt, it is not even down to the mathematical possibility stuff yet.

Want a plaster for the whole you've shot in your foot? I've got some nice Disney ones my kids have to help take the pain away..... ;)

If Mark had come up to Seb on say lap 20, then by all means he should have a go or Seb should let him past if he is faster. But with 2 laps to go, thats looking for trouble. I'm all for drivers giving it their all, but sometimes common sense needs to be heeded.

[SGWilko]

I think everryone in Red Bull learnt from Turkey 2010. If they hadn't, they would be a bunch of idiots!!! Rather 33 points than nothing and a couple of wrecked cars again.

Not a big endorsement of their highly paid drivers to be nannying them and not trusting them though is it? (especially rude to Mark, given Seb caused the last get together) Red Bull gives you wings? - I've seen better wings on feminine products!

[555-04Q2]

Not a big endorsement of their highly paid drivers to be nannying them and not trusting them though is it? (especially rude to Mark, given Seb caused the last get together) Red Bull gives you wings? - I've seen better wings on feminine products!

In the heat of the moment in a 200 mph F1 car, against your own teamate who is the first person you need to beat before anyone else, there are a lot of possible endings, most of them with tears!

[SGWilko]

In the heat of the moment in a 200 mph F1 car, against your own teamate who is the first person you need to beat before anyone else, there are a lot of possible endings, most of them with tears!

Why, Seb has enough of a cushion to avoid contact. Are they worried he'd take Mark out again?

[555-04Q2]

Why, Seb has enough of a cushion to avoid contact. Are they worried he'd take Mark out again?

2 laps to go. 2 cars with worn tyres. Mark desperate to finally make a challenge against Seb who has dominated him this season. Webber seeing himself as the outsider within the team. To answer your question, Yes!

[vhatever]

Vettel didn't cause the incident in Turkey, Webber did by not moving his slow ass over like any non dickhead teammate would do who was half a second slower.

[The Black Knight]

Vettel didn't cause the incident in Turkey, Webber did by not moving his slow ass over like any non dickhead teammate would do who was half a second slower.

LMAO. You realise that Mark is the guy that was defending his position, don't you? Not the other way around. Go back and look at it again and make sure you realise which driver is which.

[555-04Q2]

Vettel didn't cause the incident in Turkey, Webber did by not moving his slow ass over like any non dickhead teammate would do who was half a second slower.

Is that you Tambo?

[The Black Knight]

Is that you Tambo?

It's some deluded chap anyway. He is getting everything wrong. Poor, poor vhatever.

[vhatever]

LMAO. You realise that Mark is the guy that was defending his position, don't you? Not the other way around. Go back and look at it again and make sure you realise which driver is which.

Yes, he was defending his position. What's your point? He should of backed off as soon as vettel was ahead of him. Any non dickhead teammate would have done just that.

[SGWilko]

Is that you Tambo?

'Sore thumb', and 'sticks out like' spring to mind, does it not? ;)

[SGWilko]

Yes, he was defending his position. What's your point? He should of backed off as soon as vettel was ahead of him. Any non dickhead teammate would have done just that.

Yeah, but, no, but, yeah. Right. Seb was on a different map, init like, 'n Webber was on a fuel save map, like, and then Seb turned in before checking his blind spot, init tho?

[555-04Q2]

'Sore thumb', and 'sticks out like' spring to mind, does it not? ;)

Conspiracy theorist :p :

[SGWilko]

Conspiracy theorist :p :

Moi? I don't know what you mean..... ;)

[The Black Knight]

Yes, he was defending his position. What's your point? He should of backed off as soon as vettel was ahead of him. Any non dickhead teammate would have done just that.

Good man, that's a start. Vettel had not completed the pass. Webber didn't have to back out of anything. It's up to Vettel to complete the move without swerving into his teammate. Vettel could and would have been in the lead had he not been such a stupid little boy that day. Mark kept going straight and kept the line he had been on as he was entitled to do. It was Vettel's fault. Most people agree on this. But hey you're entitled to your delusions.

[555-04Q2]

Moi? I don't know what you mean..... ;)

:laugh: He does sound just like an old friend does he not :p :

[SGWilko]

:laugh: He does sound just like an old friend does he not :p :

I'm surprised there is any venom left in the old boy....... :p

[555-04Q2]

I'm surprised there is any venom left in the old boy....... :p

Old habits die hard ;)

[SGWilko]

Old habits die hard ;)

Well, he's come back more times than John McLane...... :rotflmao:

[555-04Q2]

Well, he's come back more times than John McLane...... :rotflmao:

:erm: WHO? :confused: :p :

[vhatever]

Good man, that's a start. Vettel had not completed the pass. Webber didn't have to back out of anything. It's up to Vettel to complete the move without swerving into his teammate. Vettel could and would have been in the lead had he not been such a stupid little boy that day. Mark kept going straight and kept the line he had been on as he was entitled to do. It was Vettel's fault. Most people agree on this. But hey you're entitled to your delusions.

No one said Webber HAD to back off, but a non dickhead would have done so to put the entire team in a better position.

The "fuel saving lap" garbage is more conspiracy theory nonsense the delusional webheads throw around every time Vettel spanks the hell out of Webber.

[SGWilko]

No one said Webber HAD to back off, but a non dickhead would have done so to put the entire team in a better position.

The "fuel saving lap" garbage is more conspiracy theory nonsense the delusional webheads throw around every time Vettel spanks the hell out of Webber.

Any reason why Seb turned ito his team mate then? Er, '*ickhead' perhaps?

As for the modes, this was admitted my the team, and revealed through team radio.....

[Mia 01]

Not a big endorsement of their highly paid drivers to be nannying them and not trusting them though is it? (especially rude to Mark, given Seb caused the last get together) Red Bull gives you wings? - I've seen better wings on feminine products!

Not trusting them, he, that´s fun. I remeber a surtain race in Canada this year.

some points was lost their I belive.

[SGWilko]

Not trusting them, he, that´s fun. I remeber a surtain race in Canada this year.

some points was lost their I belive.

Spray? Lack of visibility?

[vhatever]

Any reason why Seb turned ito his team mate then? Er, '*ickhead' perhaps?

As for the modes, this was admitted my the team, and revealed through team radio.....

Show me the youtube clip then. With all the vettel haters who can't stand he is destroying their favorite drivers, there must be a ton of clips of this supposed claim. You are saying they were both on fuel saving laps? Right? Or just webber? If just webber, then he doubly should have backed off and he's an even bigger dickhead that I imagined possible.

[vhatever]

Spray? Lack of visibility?

I guess you didn't hear Button over the radio just seconds after it happened, huh? Funny, that.

[Mia 01]

Good man, that's a start. Vettel had not completed the pass. Webber didn't have to back out of anything. It's up to Vettel to complete the move without swerving into his teammate. Vettel could and would have been in the lead had he not been such a stupid little boy that day. Mark kept going straight and kept the line he had been on as he was entitled to do. It was Vettel's fault. Most people agree on this. But hey you're entitled to your delusions.

I see, then you must understand Hornes as it seems.

[vhatever]

I think we can. Webber is as much in the title fight as Massa was last year. Webber was also faster than Vettel in the closing stages of the race and had every right to challenge Vettel. Until, of course, Red Bull ordered him not to.

Criticising someone doesn't make you a "hater".


Vettel was probably taking it easy on the car as he had no chance to catch Alonso. Better not risk blown engines and whatnot. Vettel didn't have KERS the majority of the race, and he lost about 10 seconds in the pits. Webber would have never even been in DRS range without the pitstop mishap.KErs + pit stop = about 25 second lead vettel had on webbo and vettel blew passed webber on the start line like webber lost a couple gears.

[The Black Knight]

No one said Webber HAD to back off, but a non dickhead would have done so to put the entire team in a better position.

The "fuel saving lap" garbage is more conspiracy theory nonsense the delusional webheads throw around every time Vettel spanks the hell out of Webber.

In the interests of the team Vettel should have stayed behind Mark rather than risk an incident. Webber, on the other hand, was more than entitled to defend his position. It's not just your teammate your fighting, you're fighting for your position within the team and clearly, since RBR have a number one, Webber was entitled to show the young kid he has to earn it. The point of that accident is that it was avoidable from Vettel's point of view on a number of fronts. He need not have gone for the overtake. He could have backed out at any stage. But most importantly, he didn't need to swerve to his right to take out his teammate. It was idiotic and it hurts me to think that he made such a ridiculous move and won the championship in the same year.

[The Black Knight]

I see, then you must understand Hornes as it seems.

I don't understand you. Ever!

[vhatever]

In the interests of the team Vettel should have stayed behind Mark rather than risk an incident. Webber, on the other hand, was more than entitled to defend his position. It's not just your teammate your fighting, you're fighting for your position within the team and clearly, since RBR have a number one, Webber was entitled to show the young kid he has to earn it. The point of that accident is that it was avoidable from Vettel's point of view on a number of fronts. He need not have gone for the overtake. He could have backed out at any stage. But most importantly, he didn't need to swerve to his right to take out his teammate. It was idiotic and it hurts me to think that he made such a ridiculous move and won the championship in the same year.

A fat pack nonsense. Vettel was being caught up by guys behind him because webber was so much slower, regardless of WHY he was slower, he was slower, a lot. He should have moved over, period. The end.

[SGWilko]

A fat pack nonsense. Vettel was being caught up by guys behind him because webber was so much slower, regardless of WHY he was slower, he was slower, a lot. He should have moved over, period. The end.

At Silverstone Seb was slower, he was slower, a lot. He should have moved over, period. The end.

[Mia 01]

I don't understand you. Ever!

He he, well, "vettel is such a stupid little boy". Your word.

I mean you must be a Horner fan.

[vhatever]

At Silverstone Seb was slower, he was slower, a lot. He should have moved over, period. The end.

He wasn't slower. He slowed down once he knew he had no chance to catch Alonso.

[SGWilko]

He wasn't slower. He slowed down once he knew he had no chance to catch Alonso.

Of course. He slowed down but was not slower.

That's twilight zone stuff....

[vhatever]

Of course. He slowed down but was not slower.

That's twilight zone stuff....

It's twilight zone to take care of your car and keep all mechanical and track risks to a minimum when you have no chance to improve your position? Some people call that intelligent, or just "not stupid". I guess you forget vettel's engine going up in smoke because he used to think that was twilight zone stuff too. But he learns. And learns well. You only need to go fast "enough".

[vhatever]

Webber had considerably less time tucked up behind Seb's gearbox than Fernando did with Lewis, Lewis did with Vettel, Fernando did with Lewis, Button did with Massa, and Massa did with Lewis. They are the overtakes we all remember yet because Webber couldn't overtake in just two realistic laps, he's classed as a loser??!! lol.


I didn't say he was a loser because he couldn't get pased him. I said Horner turned out to be 100% correct. Webber put his entire team at a much greater risk for no reason whtsoever. Webber is a moron for ignoring a team order, though, and will insure he never races for another top team.

[pino]

...but a non dickhead would have done so to put the entire team in a better position.



I am not going to ask this again "Do watch your language !"

[vhatever]

I am not going to ask this again "Do watch your language !"

You have an entire thread with a pejorative name for vettel, yet here you are having problem with me having my own opinion about a driver. I didn't see any rules about trashing on drivers, might you point that rule out to me? Who is the administrator of this website btw? You?

[Bagwan]

Vettel was probably taking it easy on the car as he had no chance to catch Alonso. Better not risk blown engines and whatnot. Vettel didn't have KERS the majority of the race, and he lost about 10 seconds in the pits. Webber would have never even been in DRS range without the pitstop mishap.KErs + pit stop = about 25 second lead vettel had on webbo and vettel blew passed webber on the start line like webber lost a couple gears.

That all sounds about right , vhatever .

No way to catch him , and with a lead of a zillion points in the WDC race , no point in wasting the car .

He would have been going easy , until he realized Webber was coming .

Mark is pouty again and wants to leave . It's got to be the reason .
Why else would he bring this out in public ?

[wedge]

At Silverstone Seb was slower, he was slower, a lot. He should have moved over, period. The end.

Mid-race, hell, 15 or even 10 laps then yes, there is every sense in letting Webber through and put some heat on Alonso.

But why, with a handful of laps remaining? Surely its best to consolidate than to boost Webber's senseless ego?

[tfp]

You have an entire thread with a pejorative name for vettel, yet here you are having problem with me having my own opinion about a driver. I didn't see any rules about trashing on drivers, might you point that rule out to me? Who is the administrator of this website btw? You?

No, hes a moderator :p

[Big Ben]

RBR is a disgusting team. Shutting up about Ferrari last year would have been the decent thing to do... instead they went on with the self righteousness speeches and making promises they never intended to keep.

[Mark]

Who is the administrator of this website btw? You?

Yes, Pino is an administrator so his word is law.

[The Black Knight]

He he, well, "vettel is such a stupid little boy". Your word.

I mean you must be a Horner fan.

I have no issues with either Christian Horner or Vettel. I just firmly believe Vettel to be very much overrated. It was a stupid little boys move he did. I've driven single seater races and one thing I'd never do is move across the front of the car I'm over-taking if I'm not 100% in front of him. It was a beginners error from Vettel.

[Retro Formula 1]

Yes, Pino is an administrator so his word is law.

DON'T start with Legal arguments again. Don't you remember what happened last time! :s hock: :laugh:

[The Black Knight]

He wasn't slower. He slowed down once he knew he had no chance to catch Alonso.

No, he was slower, very much slower than Webber at that point as can be witnessed by how much Mark closed the gap the last ten laps.

[tfp]

No, he was slower, very much slower than Webber at that point as can be witnessed by how much Mark closed the gap the last ten laps.

+1 I agree, and then we got Horner telling webber to back off and spoil our fun :mad:
Let the racing drivers race!!
But hey, at least there was some fun to spoil, unlike valencia :D

[Tumbo]

end of the day last yr Ferrari broke the rules - and thanks to Ferrari RBR could have team orders this yr.................still don't understand why they are the disgusting team - plus as Webber freely admits he took no notice of the team orders then we can say they achieved nothing so???

[Retro Formula 1]

I was thinking the same. He was all over the back and making no real effort to pass. Looks to me like he was making a point.

[The Black Knight]

Once again you miss the point entirely. Our issue is not that team orders were issued, I think Red Bull did the right thing, it's that Horner has been caught out using team orders to favour Vettel when he said that it's something he and Red Bull wouldn't do.

Surely you can see why a Ferrari fan would be annoyed with Horner for crticising Ferrari so vehemently last year over team orders and then doing the same thing this year. It's not team orders, it's about Horner/Red Bull being hypocrites.

Surely you can see that team orders were illegal last year. This year they are not.

[Bagwan]

I was thinking the same. He was all over the back and making no real effort to pass. Looks to me like he was making a point.

Vettel says they were racing , and Mark couldn't get past .

Mark says he was ignoring team orders , so he was racing , too .

Horner says they were racing , and to be clear , the first messages , of multiple orders were not made by Horner , only the last one .
He clearly already knew he had a rogue on track .


If he was making "no real effort to pass" , why would he not have mentioned it ?
He could have easily tempered his comments about having disobeyed his team , by saying he did the right thing in the end .

Your supposition about him "making a point" would have been a point worth mentioning .

Thus he either forgot to mention it , or he forgot to deploy it ?
Which makes more sense ?

[vhatever]

Mark said in the press conference that he couldn't pass because he his tires were too far gone.

[vhatever]

I was thinking the same. He was all over the back and making no real effort to pass. Looks to me like he was making a point.

What point did he want to make? that he never wants to drive with another top team again?

[Malbec]

Vettel says they were racing , and Mark couldn't get past .

Mark says he was ignoring team orders , so he was racing , too .

Joe Saward makes an interesting point on his blog. The important thing to note isn't that RBR employed team orders, its that Webber and Horner feel no need to keep it behind closed doors and that its an indication of how poor relationships are between the two.

It looks like Webber will be somewhere else for 2012, the only questions are where and who will take his place?

[ioan]

Any reason why Seb turned ito his team mate then? Er, '*ickhead' perhaps?

As for the modes, this was admitted my the team, and revealed through team radio.....

There are a few reasons but what use to lose time explaining things to biased people?

If Weber wasn't a humble servant of the queen none of you would give a dam about team orders, and if the orders were the other way around you would have been more then happy with them. just sayin'.

[ioan]

You have an entire thread with a pejorative name for vettel, yet here you are having problem with me having my own opinion about a driver. I didn't see any rules about trashing on drivers, might you point that rule out to me? Who is the administrator of this website btw? You?

Don't go there, he will ban you for not liking your name, just leave it.

[ioan]

That all sounds about right , vhatever .

No way to catch him , and with a lead of a zillion points in the WDC race , no point in wasting the car .

He would have been going easy , until he realized Webber was coming .

Mark is pouty again and wants to leave . It's got to be the reason .
Why else would he bring this out in public ?

If he wants to go he should go, but where?
Weber is becoming the new Barrichello, a whine underachiever.

[ioan]

Surely you can see that team orders were illegal last year. This year they are not.

Judging by his posts since Sunday, he didn't get the point yet.

[ioan]

Yes, Pino is an administrator so his word is law.

Beg your pardon?!
Pino is a 'moderator', well he's trying at least. As for his word being law, it mostly depends on his personal preferences.
Sorry for the off topic, it just happened that his actions in this thread brought this up.

[Bagwan]

If he wants to go he should go, but where?
Weber is becoming the new Barrichello, a whine underachiever.

He's got a bicycle .
There is a rumour he has spoken to Renault , but would they want him ?

I would have sent him away on his bike last year .

[tfp]

He's got a bicycle .
There is a rumour he has spoken to Renault , but would they want him ?

I would have sent him away on his bike last year .

Renault? They employ more drivers than I eat bags of crisps. I wonder whats going on with kubica...

Any new developments from Webber? I suspect he wont speak to the press about this until the next race.

[Retro Formula 1]

Beg your pardon?!
Pino is a 'moderator', well he's trying at least. As for his word being law, it mostly depends on his personal preferences.
Sorry for the off topic, it just happened that his actions in this thread brought this up.

My word. You and Tamb sound like Rubens and Webbers love children. Stop whining, build a bridge and get over it or sod off.