Mark, you are to remain the gap

[ioan]

My word. You and Tamb sound like Rubens and Webbers love children. Stop whining, build a bridge and get over it or sod off.

Funny how you always need to mind others business'.

[wedge]

If he wants to go he should go, but where?
Weber is becoming the new Barrichello, a whine underachiever.

Is Massa on the same list?

[ioan]

Is Massa on the same list?

No, but I would add Hamilton for his Ali G moments.

[SGWilko]

Funny how you always need to mind others business'.

Sometimes it is necessary.....

[wedge]

No, but I would add Hamilton for his Ali G moments.

Massa not a whining underachiever?

What a great job Massa did to justify himself after saying he was going to race for himself after the Hockenheim debacle!

[wmcot]

Horner swore blue last year that Red Bull would never use team orders. A lot changes in 12 months it would seem.


Exactly! I don't have a problem with team orders, I do have a problem with hypocrisy! Say what you mean and mean what you say.

It's not exactly like Vettel needed the few extra points to keep his lead in the championship.

[555-04Q2]

I wouldn't call what they did "team orders". It was more of a case of, Mark there are 2 laps to go, we are about to collect 33 points, don't f@ck this one up. It's not like they told Vettel to let him past or vice versa, that would have been a "team orders".

[The Black Knight]

I wouldn't call what they did "team orders". It was more of a case of, Mark there are 2 laps to go, we are about to collect 33 points, don't f@ck this one up. It's not like they told Vettel to let him past or vice versa, that would have been a "team orders".

It was far more a team order than "Alonso is faster than you".

[F16]

"Can you confirm you understood that message?"

Give another laps to the race, Webber would have taken it from Vettel. In the last laps Webber was apparently better. Give credit where it is due. :)

[Mark]

Beg your pardon?!
Pino is a 'moderator', well he's trying at least. As for his word being law, it mostly depends on his personal preferences.
Sorry for the off topic, it just happened that his actions in this thread brought this up.

Erm, I am the owner here so I know who is who thanks. Don't try to tell me who has what job. Now, quit whining.

[Retro Formula 1]

Funny how you always need to mind others business'.

:laugh: Can you not see the irony of you butting in to a conversation between 2 people and expressing your opinion and then when someone else offers an opinion, you comment on that poster :laugh:

It's an open forum. If you want to keep things private, take it to a PM conversation.

Anyway, that's my last comment on this silliness. Back to the thread :wave:

[ioan]

Massa not a whining underachiever?

What a great job Massa did to justify himself after saying he was going to race for himself after the Hockenheim debacle!

So, where did he whine?!

[ioan]

It was far more a team order than "Alonso is faster than you".

Delusional! LOL

[ioan]

Erm, I am the owner here so I know who is who thanks. Don't try to tell me who has what job. Now, quit whining.

Oh well, never mind posting an honest opinion on an open forum, like Knockie says!

[mstillhere]

I wouldn't call what they did "team orders". It was more of a case of, Mark there are 2 laps to go, we are about to collect 33 points, don't f@ck this one up. It's not like they told Vettel to let him past or vice versa, that would have been a "team orders".

I actually don't agree with you. It was team orders only because the drivers were NOT left racing each other. The team told Webber not to pass Vettel and that's a team order.

[ioan]

I could ask you where Webber whined to be honest?

Wherever he had teh chance since he got into F1.
An exhaustive list would take 3 days and nights to write.

Last season is close enough for you to remember, or wasn't him who complained the whole last year how the team would not put all their efforts behind him in the championship?

[ioan]

I actually don't agree with you. It was team orders only because the drivers were NOT left racing each other. The team told Webber not to pass Vettel and that's a team order.

Well, that's what Ferrari used since I know them, no racing allowed after the last pit stop. I guess you use other measure for Ferrari though.

[mstillhere]

I am actually proud to say that I walk the walk and talk the talk. No once I have switched position in this issue nor in any other of my positions for that matter. I have always said that team orders are a logical part of F1 since pilots are to serve the team interest period. However there are other people who like to split hair in this subject. And that's usually coming from people who don't mean what they say, the speak based on conveniance and that's how they get in trouble. RB fell on their face for being hypocritical and for lying to Webber. I'll tell one thing I don't like though, and that's when Webber complains when asked to "respect" his contract. THis year is not the first time.

[Bagwan]

For those of you who think Webber was right to disobey , I would like to pose a question .

Suppose there were another 3 laps in the race , and Webber had caused a coming together with a wreckless dive , would Mark be more culpable as a result of his having disobeyed orders , or would it matter at all in the situation ?

[Hawkmoon]

For those of you who think Webber was right to disobey , I would like to pose a question .

Suppose there were another 3 laps in the race , and Webber had caused a coming together with a wreckless dive , would Mark be more culpable as a result of his having disobeyed orders , or would it matter at all in the situation ?

Let me answer your question with one of my own.

If it was prudent for Red Bull to call Webber off in a bid to avoid putting points at risk, then should not Ferrari have done the same with Massa instead of letting him attack Hamilton? I would think the chances of a Ferrari and McLaren having an accident are higher than those of two Red Bulls getting together.

[ArrowsFA1]

Suppose there were another 3 laps in the race , and Webber had caused a coming together with a wreckless dive...
There seems to be this assumption that Webber, not Vettel, was more likely to cause an accident. Why?

Given what we saw in Turkey Red Bull were protecting Vettel from himself at Silverstone by issuing the order to Mark.

[vhatever]

I would say its Red Bull's fault for amending his contract after Silverstone 2010 to state there is no team orders and he is free to race Vettel for the entire season. At the time it may have been for the attention of the media but 12 months on it may well have backfired as Horner looked very uncomfortable when asked about it in the post race. If Webber had crashed into Seb and caused the accident he would have to take full responsibilty for costing himself, his teammate and the team no doubt. If he attempted a pass and Vettel defended hard which caused an accident, then its his teammates fault obviously, although I have no doubt some would blame Webber simply for creating the situation in the first place. I am not one of those people and enjoy racing.

How exactly is Webber going to "take responsibility" for costing the team all the lost points he could have thrown away had one or both cars crashed out of the race? A magical wand he can wave? Genie in a bottle? Short of those two, he could do nothing to take responsibility for that. All this so he can stoke his pathetic and fragile ego by trying to pass a KERS-less vettel who he never would have even seen had it not been for the incredibly botched pit stop.

[The Black Knight]

Mark Webber will stay at Red Bull - Dietrich Mateschitz | Formula 1 | Formula 1 news, live F1 | ESPN F1 (http://en.espnf1.com/f1/motorsport/story/54197.html)

Well everyone, Dietrich Mateschitz, believes Mark was right to ignore the team orders.



Mateschitz has often taken pride in not having a No.1 driver at Red Bull, and he added that he was fine with Webber's decision to ignore Sunday's radio messages.
"This is no problem for us," Mateschitz told Autosport.com. "Sebastian realised that Fernando Alonso was gone and could not be caught anymore, so he backed down. This let Mark close in. He would be a very bad racer had he not tried to attack and gain a position."


I think that pretty much settles it. Mark did the right thing and, unlike Horner, stuck to the principles that RBR stand for and Mateschitz is happy about that. Mark will be at Red Bull next year.

[SGWilko]

How exactly is Webber going to "take responsibility" for costing the team all the lost points he could have thrown away had one or both cars crashed out of the race? A magical wand he can wave? Genie in a bottle? Short of those two, he could do nothing to take responsibility for that. All this so he can stoke his pathetic and fragile ego by trying to pass a KERS-less vettel who he never would have even seen had it not been for the incredibly botched pit stop.

How do you take responsibility for something when you make a mistake?

[Bagwan]

Let me answer your question with one of my own.

If it was prudent for Red Bull to call Webber off in a bid to avoid putting points at risk, then should not Ferrari have done the same with Massa instead of letting him attack Hamilton? I would think the chances of a Ferrari and McLaren having an accident are higher than those of two Red Bulls getting together.

Two different teams . WCC points at stake .

[SGWilko]

Two different teams . WCC points at stake .

Same principle applies though - what if Massa ran out of talent while attempting the overtake and took himself out? Nil points?

[Bagwan]

There seems to be this assumption that Webber, not Vettel, was more likely to cause an accident. Why?

Given what we saw in Turkey Red Bull were protecting Vettel from himself at Silverstone by issuing the order to Mark.

So , I am guessing that you're saying that the question is too far from the realm of possibilities to be answerable .

No assumption , Arrows . Just a scenario I wondered about , trying to guage how important following orders is to some .

[Bagwan]

Same principle applies though - what if Massa ran out of talent while attempting the overtake and took himself out? Nil points?

Surely you can see the different colour uniforms mean that Massa only risked his points , and the prize was a higher placing , and more points .

But , the question posed related more to the fact that he was disobeying orders .
Ferrari would have done the same if the car in front was Fernando .

[SGWilko]

Surely you can see the different colour uniforms mean that Massa only risked his points , and the prize was a higher placing , and more points .

But , the question posed related more to the fact that he was disobeying orders .
Ferrari would have done the same if the car in front was Fernando .

I hear you, but look at it from Mark's perspective. We are to believe he was given assurances, and the contract changed accordingly, to reflect that he was free to fight, and that there were no team orders etc.......

[Bagwan]

Mark doesn't like the situation he's in , but he needs to accept that's where he is .

Folks here complained when Rubens was asked to let the Shoe past , even though the Shoe was way ahead in the points .
The broken leg was given as the reason .

Rubens protested by waiting to let him by , but dutifully did .

Although I didn't like how he did it , I respected his move to move aside in the end .


You drive for a team . They pay you to do so .

[Bagwan]

"At the same time, I knew I was going against the team's wishes. Normally, if you are racing and trying to gain a position, you would imagine everyone would be happy with that.

"They weren't, obviously - not because they didn't want me to finish second; they just didn't want us to have contact. From a team's perspective, it is obviously their worst nightmare."



He says he understands . Good .

[The Black Knight]

"At the same time, I knew I was going against the team's wishes. Normally, if you are racing and trying to gain a position, you would imagine everyone would be happy with that.

"They weren't, obviously - not because they didn't want me to finish second; they just didn't want us to have contact. From a team's perspective, it is obviously their worst nightmare."



He says he understands . Good .

I don't think you understand though. It is in Mark's contract that he is equal and not a number two. Therefore, it is within his right to ignore any team order that contravenes such an agreement. What RBR asked him to do on Sunday was against his contract. It's very simple. I don't get why you believe he was anyway incorrect at all.

Contracts are contracts and if anyone in RBR has an issue with what is in Mark's contract then they have to try and change that when the contract is going to be renewed, but, until then, he is employed under the T&A's outlined in his contract and Horner just has to suck it up. Mark didn't breach his side of the contract on Sunday, RBR did by ordering him to maintain the gap. Your having a go at Mark is pretty lame and more along the lines of desparately looking for something to argue about rather than actually seeing the situation for what it is.

[The Black Knight]

For those of you who think Webber was right to disobey , I would like to pose a question .

Suppose there were another 3 laps in the race , and Webber had caused a coming together with a wreckless dive , would Mark be more culpable as a result of his having disobeyed orders , or would it matter at all in the situation ?

If it were a situation where Webber was no longer in the championship run then I'd completely agree with it. While Webber is in with a chance of winning the title RBR cannot ask him to maintain the gap. If they had collided on Sunday then that would have been racing. They are professional drivers and, after Turkey last year, I'm sure they know better than to come together. It was an unlikely outcome. I understand why RBR issued the order but they had no right to ask Mark to hold back.

[Bagwan]

I don't think you understand though. It is in Mark's contract that he is equal and not a number two. Therefore, it is within his right to ignore any team order that contravenes such an agreement. What RBR asked him to do on Sunday was against his contract. It's very simple. I don't get why you believe he was anyway incorrect at all.

Contracts are contracts and if anyone in RBR has an issue with what is in Mark's contract then they have to try and change that when the contract is going to be renewed, but, until then, he is employed under the T&A's outlined in his contract and Horner just has to suck it up. Mark didn't breach his side of the contract on Sunday, RBR did by ordering him to maintain the gap. Your having a go at Mark is pretty lame and more along the lines of desparately looking for something to argue about rather than actually seeing the situation for what it is.

Should I assume you've seen the contract and read that clause then ?

Horner was upset that he was working for himself and not the team .
Why would he be upset if he had no right to ask Mark to hold station in the first place ?

Marks understands what he risked now .
Perhaps he also understands that Vettel had backed off , and that was the large part of why he was catching him so quickly .

[The Black Knight]

Should I assume you've seen the contract and read that clause then ?
Horner was upset that he was working for himself and not the team .
Why would he be upset if he had no right to ask Mark to hold station in the first place ?
Marks understands what he risked now .
Perhaps he also understands that Vettel had backed off , and that was the large part of why he was catching him so quickly .

Can you ever see Mark Webber signing a contract stating that he is number two to anyone? I can’t. If the contract didn’t state that Mark was on level pecking then he wouldn’t have signed it.

No, I haven’t read the contract so I can’t say to you that it is definitely in it, I simply remember RBR stating very clearly that they have no number 1 driver and every driver gets equal treatment. Since this is the case one would have to assume the contracts reflect that position held by the team and its owner. All the evidence suggests that both RBR’s contracts would state that. We have been lead to believe their contracts state they are level. Mark would never sign if it were any other way, therefore, RBR were in breach when they asked him to maintain the gap on Sunday.

Mark risked nothing. On the other hand, had he backed off, he would have been seen as a number two guy only in future, the new Barrichello of F1. He is smarter than that and now I reckon Horner knows better than to ask him to back off again because he knows Mark won’t.

[Bagwan]

If it were a situation where Webber was no longer in the championship run then I'd completely agree with it. While Webber is in with a chance of winning the title RBR cannot ask him to maintain the gap. If they had collided on Sunday then that would have been racing. They are professional drivers and, after Turkey last year, I'm sure they know better than to come together. It was an unlikely outcome. I understand why RBR issued the order but they had no right to ask Mark to hold back.

You understand why they issued the order .
But you say that outcome was unlikely ? But you understand ?
I'm a little confused by that response .

Didn't you say they had no right ?

But then , didn't you say you'd agree with it if he was out of the running ?

He understands why they issued the order , and so do you .
If they had collided , and the "nightmare" ensued , would find Mark more culpable , if the accident was his fault ?

[The Black Knight]

You understand why they issued the order .
But you say that outcome was unlikely ? But you understand ?
I'm a little confused by that response .

Didn't you say they had no right ?

But then , didn't you say you'd agree with it if he was out of the running ?

He understands why they issued the order , and so do you .
If they had collided , and the "nightmare" ensued , would find Mark more culpable , if the accident was his fault ?

I understand why they issued the order but they had no right to it because Mark is not contracted to be a number 2 driver. It's very simple. I'm not sure why your brain can't comprehend that, really. I can't see why you are confused, unless, maybe, you just enjoy being that way?

If an accident had occurred then, depending on the accident, it could have either been Mark or Vettel's fault. But it would never be Mark's fault for trying to pass in the first place. It is only his fault if he ****s up while doing so, and that's the difference :)

[Retro Formula 1]

I understand why they issued the order but they had no right to it because Mark is not contracted to be a number 2 driver. It's very simple. I'm not sure why your brain can't comprehend that, really. I can't see why you are confused, unless, maybe, you just enjoy being that way?

If an accident had occurred then, depending on the accident, it could have either been Mark or Vettel's fault. But it would never be Mark's fault for trying to pass in the first place. It is only his fault if he ****s up while doing so, and that's the difference :)

100% agree. Seems simple to me.

Horner tried to control Mark because he got too close to his boy. Webber said "up yours".

IF there had of been a collision...... but there wasn't.

[vhatever]

I understand why they issued the order but they had no right to it because Mark is not contracted to be a number 2 driver. It's very simple. I'm not sure why your brain can't comprehend that, really. I can't see why you are confused, unless, maybe, you just enjoy being that way?

If an accident had occurred then, depending on the accident, it could have either been Mark or Vettel's fault. But it would never be Mark's fault for trying to pass in the first place. It is only his fault if he ****s up while doing so, and that's the difference :)

First, you know absolutely nothing about webber's contract so it's about time you shut up about it. Second, there is a big difference between being the number 2 driver and being given team orders. Third, it's entirely possible that with webber and vettel racing that one or both could have lost the car and not have been a drivers error, because they were on very old tires with little grip left in them.

[Retro Formula 1]

First, you know absolutely nothing about webber's contract so it's about time you shut up about it.

First, we do know that since Webber made his "not bad for a number 2 driver" comment, Red Bull have been at pains to claim that there drivers are free to race and there is no in team preference to Seb. That is as close to knowing about the contract that we are going to get short of seeing the document so it's about time you shut up or provide some evidence that Horner is lying. (You might like to get your Missus to clarify what the legal interpretation of Slander is first)

The rest of your post is your opinion.

[vhatever]

First, we do know that since Webber made his "not bad for a number 2 driver" comment, Red Bull have been at pains to claim that there drivers are free to race and there is no in team preference to Seb. That is as close to knowing about the contract that we are going to get short of seeing the document so it's about time you shut up or provide some evidence that Horner is lying. (You might like to get your Missus to clarify what the legal interpretation of Slander is first)

The rest of your post is your opinion.

How does the "not bad for a number 2 driver" comment tell you whatever is in webber's contract? If anything, that would suggest he does have number 2 status in his contract. The rest of your post is equally idiotic.

[SGWilko]

equally idiotic.

At least you recognise that your posts, generally, make little sense, and are intended only to provoke.....

[vhatever]

At least you recognise that your posts, generally, make little sense, and are intended only to provoke.....

All you seem to do here is troll. so you should know all about "provoking".

[Mia 01]

The whole thing boils down to, Mark is one of the very few that can take points of Seb, that´s why so many fans of Lewis is angry at Horner and Marko.

[vhatever]

I think you missed a big chunk of news after Silverstone 2010 where Webber made the number two driver remark and around 4 days after that race he renewed his contract with Red Bull up until the end of this current season. It was widely publicized and endorsed by Red Bull that they and Webber had agreed on terms that gave him equal status within the team. After media pressure Horner and Red Bull went on record confirming this and have even said Vettel is not their number one dispite winning the WDC last year.

"Red Bull magnate Dietrich Mateschitz has stressed that the status of F1 World Champion will not automatically correspond to number one driver at Red Bull Racing for Sebastian Vettel in 2011 - explaining that the young German will again have to prove his superiority inside the cockpit."

Does an 80 point lead halfway through the season qualify, you think?

[Mia 01]

That could be part of the reason, but the other being Red Bull's stance when they criticized both McLaren and Ferrari last season for using team orders. You have to admit they have dug abit of a trench for themselves even if what they did was sensible under the circumstances in terms of maximizing points. Plus advertising the fact they have two equal drivers and then slanting their strategy towards one is creating abit of a PR cock up IMO. Still, we can't change what has happened and whats done is done. :)

Agreed to a bit. We have to accept that teams like RBR, MacLaren and Ferrari has an agenda. And, so does people on this and other boards.

It´s a part of the game, but not any longer this years game for the top spot, if not something very unusual happens.

[vhatever]

No it doesn't. 'Half way' being operative phrase there and we saw last season how an advantage can disappear when a team hit a spell of unreliabilty or driving errors. The fact Mateschitz has come on record today backing Webber's mindset in Silverstone speak volumes for the Red Bull PR machine.

Vettel could never race again this season and webber would still have to average around 2nd place to get ahead of vettel. This season is as good as over.

[Retro Formula 1]

All you seem to do here is troll. so you should know all about "provoking".


"Yesterday was a really unique situation," he continued. "It was the first time that the team had really had [only] one component. [But] I would never have signed a contract again for next year if I believed that that was the way it was going to be going forward.

Webber: Not bad for a number two driver! | F1 News | Jul 2010 | Crash.Net (http://www.crash.net/f1/news/161512/1/webber_not_bad_for_a_number_two_driver.html)

You're the one who is Trolling. We have Horner claiming there is no #1 policy. Webber stating he would never have signed the contract if it stated otherwise and the owner saying Seb will need to prove his superiority on track.

Yet you seem to suggest that we know nothing about the contract thereby suggesting all these people are wrong.

Isn't it time to drop it or will you carry on, like the band on the Titanic.

[Bagwan]

I understand why they issued the order but they had no right to it because Mark is not contracted to be a number 2 driver. It's very simple. I'm not sure why your brain can't comprehend that, really. I can't see why you are confused, unless, maybe, you just enjoy being that way?

If an accident had occurred then, depending on the accident, it could have either been Mark or Vettel's fault. But it would never be Mark's fault for trying to pass in the first place. It is only his fault if he ****s up while doing so, and that's the difference :)

"It is only his fault if he ****s up while doing so, and that's the difference ."

I am asking , if he did screw up , would it be worse to have disobeyed his employer's orders to not race , having done so ?

[vhatever]

It looks that way at the moment but anything can happen. Vettel could have 4 none finishes and split the championship wide open, we just don't know.

Out of interest whats with the American flag under your name?


In Vettel's last 15 races I think he had been first or second every time, winning the vast majority. The only exception was one blown engine. It's not just that vettel has a huge lead, but he is remarkably consistent. Perhaps more consistent than any driver in F1 history. Additionally the close competitive nature of this season also will help immensely. vettel has managed a huge gap, but the cras have been much closer to each other in performance than his massive lead suggests. So with everyone fighting for spots and having a decent shot at it, that will reduce the chance someone can "rise up" to challenge vettel.

Why do you care what flag is under my name? Do you ask everyone else here such questions?

[Bagwan]

No it doesn't. 'Half way' being operative phrase there and we saw last season how an advantage can disappear when a team hit a spell of unreliabilty or driving errors. The fact Mateschitz has come on record today backing Webber's mindset in Silverstone speak volumes for the Red Bull PR machine.

Henners , if that's justification for Webber disobeying orders , is it not also justification that can be used for issuing the order in the first place ?
They are , after all in a race with other teams .
This is why Webber was told to hold station . They didn't want to risk the points they would use to beat the others .

[Bagwan]

The answer is no. It would be no different to any other crash between competitive individuals and it seems the team owner is fully behind both drivers racing. Mateschitz has in effect undermined Horner by backing Webber somewhat today and it'll be difficult for Webber not to get support if he gets an opportunity to overtake Vettel again this season. In my opinion of course. :)

Would you be of the same opinion if Mateschitz had not made his comment , or was of the same opinion as Horner ?

[Retro Formula 1]

Vettel could never race again this season and webber would still have to average around 2nd place to get ahead of vettel. This season is as good as over.

Sorry, you've lost me there.

If Seb didn't race again this year, he would need Webber to finish no higher than 6th to draw on points and take it on wins. It's 25 for a win and 18 for second with 10 rounds remaining.

I know you've been away for a bit but are you thinking of the old points system?

[vhatever]

From a teams perspective I agree the order was correct but when you have two drivers who are employed on an equal basis and are racing for the ultimate goal as individuals, then I can see why one driver would want to capitalize if given the chance. Sure they are obliged to work for the team but we are still only half way through the season and Red Bull have a healthy lead. I think Mark was correct and the PR side of Red Bull now publically think Mark was correct. I hope we see more of this throughout the rest of the season and if one man has the best chance of challeneging Vettel, its Mark.

That's not how it works though. If you are leading the team in points, RB usually give you the advantage in new parts. If you are leading the team on the race track, then you get your preferred pit stop strategy. Strangely when webber was getting parts updates before vettel in the past, it wasn't an issue. Only when Vettel got a part before webber was it suddenly an issue. Most of these "issues" are completely nonsense cooked up by the bigoted jingoistic british media. They never seemed to care about kovalainen getting screwed over in every race by team hamilton, er, I mean mclaren.

I believe the this last race was simply the red bull team telling both their drivers to back off and cut their losses and not push their luck. Vettel backed off, but webber did not. Without even considering the propect of an incident between webber and vettel it was dumb for mark to risk his own car and position by pushing it when he was invariably told to turn the revs down a bit.

[Bagwan]

From a teams perspective I agree the order was correct but when you have two drivers who are employed on an equal basis and are racing for the ultimate goal as individuals, then I can see why one driver would want to capitalize if given the chance. Sure they are obliged to work for the team but we are still only half way through the season and Red Bull have a healthy lead. I think Mark was correct and the PR side of Red Bull now publically think Mark was correct. I hope we see more of this throughout the rest of the season and if one man has the best chance of challeneging Vettel, its Mark.

Just what is a "healthy lead" though ?

If , in your opinion , the lead is able to be challenged still , by Mark , or anyone else , is it healthy at all ?
Remember , this was all at a moment when they had decided that the Ferrari was out of touch , and they were settling for second .
That Ferrari was fast . Was that the time to risk the points of both RB drivers ?

[Retro Formula 1]

In Vettel's last 15 races I think he had been first or second every time, winning the vast majority. The only exception was one blown engine. It's not just that vettel has a huge lead, but he is remarkably consistent. Perhaps more consistent than any driver in F1 history. Additionally the close competitive nature of this season also will help immensely. vettel has managed a huge gap, but the cras have been much closer to each other in performance than his massive lead suggests. So with everyone fighting for spots and having a decent shot at it, that will reduce the chance someone can "rise up" to challenge vettel.

Why do you care what flag is under my name? Do you ask everyone else here such questions?

He has done very well but you must appreciate that the Red Bull has a lot to do with the matter.

If we take last year as a whole, he achieved first or second 7 times out of the 19 races. Pretty impressive but he didn't have quite as good a ratio of first and seconds as Button the year before.

This year, the car is soooo much better than the rest,it's silly.

[vhatever]

He has done very well but you must appreciate that the Red Bull has a lot to do with the matter.

If we take last year as a whole, he achieved first or second 7 times out of the 19 races. Pretty impressive but he didn't have quite as good a ratio of first and seconds as Button the year before.

This year, the car is soooo much better than the rest,it's silly.

Button had a ridiculous car advantage half the season and a washed up 40+ year old for a teammate. Vettel had a lot of bad luck last year, too, mechanical and otherwise. The RB has only been dominant in qualifying, but on race day they are very close to ferrari and mclaren. At this point the ferrari is actually the better race-day car.And with the ridiculous DRS nonsense, qualifying has never meant less in F1 history.

[vhatever]

I wouldn't say its particularly the British media as Red Bull is a British team and this support reflects in the race coverage and media from what I have seen. I'm sure you were of the opinion that Jenson was a fool to have attempted a pass on his teammate in Turkey last year after being given a similar order to save fuel, yet thankfully he went for glory and provided the fans with what they wanted. McLaren put a stop to it going further but you can't blame Jenson for trying even if both drivers had been assured of different things.

He was as fool if he was told by his team to go into fuel saving mode as suggested, but we never found out what was actually said to button. If he was told nothing, then he would have been a fool not to try a pass. Was mclaren investigated for team orders in that one? Telling a driver that the other driver won't pass you can definitely indicate a team order, illegal in 2010.

[The Black Knight]

"It is only his fault if he ****s up while doing so, and that's the difference ."

I am asking , if he did screw up , would it be worse to have disobeyed his employer's orders to not race , having done so ?

No, not as far as I'm concerned. Mark, like any employee, is not obligated to obey any orders that are contrary to his contract or against company values. Kudos to Mateschitz for being as honest as he has been about it and undermining Horner. I think Horner will think twice before calling out team orders like that again. The only way team orders are justified, as far as I'm concerned, are if the driver is unequivically number two in the team and both he and the team are aware of this and it is contracted, or else if it's nearing the end of the championship and one guy can help the other guy out should he himself not be in within a mathematical a chance of winning the championship.

[The Black Knight]

Button had a ridiculous car advantage half the season and a washed up 40+ year old for a teammate. Vettel had a lot of bad luck last year, too, mechanical and otherwise. The RB has only been dominant in qualifying, but on race day they are very close to ferrari and mclaren. At this point the ferrari is actually the better race-day car.And with the ridiculous DRS nonsense, qualifying has never meant less in F1 history.

I wasn't really taking you seriously before this but all I can do is laugh even harder now. Rubens still isn't 40+. He only just turned 39 two months ago.

[vhatever]

37, 40, whatever. very old for an F1 driver.

[mstillhere]

No it doesn't. 'Half way' being operative phrase there and we saw last season how an advantage can disappear when a team hit a spell of unreliabilty or driving errors. The fact Mateschitz has come on record today backing Webber's mindset in Silverstone speak volumes for the Red Bull PR machine.

I am sorry but I don't beleive them for a second. This is just PRs. The truth is that both Vettel and Webber work for him and RB and they'll do what they are asked to do for RB via radio or in the office. Period.

[vhatever]

No one with half a brain buys this good cop bad cop nonsense.

[pete c]

you really make me laugh out loud.......hahahahahahahaha

thanks!

[tfp]

Button had a ridiculous car advantage half the season and a washed up 40+ year old for a teammate. Vettel had a lot of bad luck last year, too, mechanical and otherwise. The RB has only been dominant in qualifying, but on race day they are very close to ferrari and mclaren. At this point the ferrari is actually the better race-day car.And with the ridiculous DRS nonsense, qualifying has never meant less in F1 history.

:beer: :rotflmao:

[Mia 01]

I wouldn't say its particularly the British media as Red Bull is a British team and this support reflects in the race coverage and media from what I have seen. I'm sure you were of the opinion that Jenson was a fool to have attempted a pass on his teammate in Turkey last year after being given a similar order to save fuel, yet thankfully he went for glory and provided the fans with what they wanted. McLaren put a stop to it going further but you can't blame Jenson for trying even if both drivers had been assured of different things.

Canada this year is not far away. isn´t.

[Mia 01]

No, not as far as I'm concerned. Mark, like any employee, is not obligated to obey any orders that are contrary to his contract or against company values. Kudos to Mateschitz for being as honest as he has been about it and undermining Horner. I think Horner will think twice before calling out team orders like that again. The only way team orders are justified, as far as I'm concerned, are if the driver is unequivically number two in the team and both he and the team are aware of this and it is contracted, or else if it's nearing the end of the championship and one guy can help the other guy out should he himself not be in within a mathematical a chance of winning the championship.

No team orders in MacLaren this year then.

[Mia 01]

You need to explain your point Mia, I have no idea what you are trying to say??????

Trying, nope, you speaks for me, people on this board has brains, and they use them I hope.

That´s the purpose.

[Mia 01]

Yep and my brain is saying "Mia is making absolutely no sense with two incoherent sentences about a race where team orders couldn't be used for McLaren as only one driver was in the race".

Once again trying to relate this to Red Bull and their issuing of team orders to Mark Webber as the connection you have brought to the table is no doubt lost on the majority?????????

You reffering to one race, but I agree, MacLaren don´t need team orders this year. But, but the thing in Canada is interesting for this topic, Jenson screaming, and Lewis!

[The Black Knight]

You reffering to one race, but I agree, MacLaren don´t need team orders this year. But, but the thing in Canada is interesting for this topic, Jenson screaming, and Lewis!

I really don't get your point. What has Jenson screaming got to do with team orders? There is and never was a question of team order's here.

[airshifter]

18 pages on, and it appears nobody has changed their opinion. Imagine that. :)

Here's my opinion, and it isn't going to be based on a contract I've never seen.



Mark wanted to have a go at Sebastian. His tires were a couple laps newer and he had good pace.

The team told Mark to hold station and maintain a gap. Mark ignored this and had a go at Sebastian, at which point Sebastian made it clear he had enough pace to hold Mark at bay.

Moral of the story, Mark is 2nd because he isn't as good as Sebastian.


A thousand people can speculate contracts, orders, etc, but over the history of F1 it isn't unusual at all to have the cars hold station in the closing laps of a race. It preserves both points and expensive car parts. Webber qualified in the 1st spot, and lost that spot in seconds. I'm sure it's irritating for that to happen, but it's hardly unfair for a team to expect the person that has been behind their team mate the entire race to stay behind in the closing laps rather than risk the possibility of taking out both cars.

[555-04Q2]

18 pages on, and it appears nobody has changed their opinion. Imagine that. :)

Here's my opinion, and it isn't going to be based on a contract I've never seen.



Mark wanted to have a go at Sebastian. His tires were a couple laps newer and he had good pace.

The team told Mark to hold station and maintain a gap. Mark ignored this and had a go at Sebastian, at which point Sebastian made it clear he had enough pace to hold Mark at bay.

Moral of the story, Mark is 2nd because he isn't as good as Sebastian.


A thousand people can speculate contracts, orders, etc, but over the history of F1 it isn't unusual at all to have the cars hold station in the closing laps of a race. It preserves both points and expensive car parts. Webber qualified in the 1st spot, and lost that spot in seconds. I'm sure it's irritating for that to happen, but it's hardly unfair for a team to expect the person that has been behind their team mate the entire race to stay behind in the closing laps rather than risk the possibility of taking out both cars.

Well said :up:

Vettel said after the race that he wasn't chasing down Alonso cause he was too far ahead. He was coasting to the finish in a solid second place. Mark's actions just:

1. Proved that he is not a team player.
2. Proved he was not able to pass Vettel afterall.
3. Proved that he is willing to risk throwing away 33 TEAM points if they collided to try and prove a point.
4. Proved that he is the number 2 at RBR whether it is written in a contract or not.
5. Proved that he is a dick at times.
6. Proved many "armchair critics" right.

Pity, cause I used to be a vocal supporter of his a few years back.

[Bagwan]

Well said :up:

Vettel said after the race that he wasn't chasing down Alonso cause he was too far ahead. He was coasting to the finish in a solid second place. Mark's actions just:

1. Proved that he is not a team player.
2. Proved he was not able to pass Vettel afterall.
3. Proved that he is willing to risk throwing away 33 TEAM points if they collided to try and prove a point.
4. Proved that he is the number 2 at RBR whether it is written in a contract or not.
5. Proved that he is a dick at times.
6. Proved many "armchair critics" right.

Pity, cause I used to be a vocal supporter of his a few years back.
Also well said , but it sounds like you changed your opinion .
But , perhaps it wasn't in these last 18 pages , so point stands about that previous post .

Mateschitz , I'm sure , likes him putting Red Bull in the headlines anyway .

[Koz]

3. Proved that he is willing to risk throwing away 33 TEAM points if they collided to try and prove a point.

Hum... So I guess that means that teammates don't have the ability to race each other without taking each other out?
Or is Webber an incompetent driver that can't pass without crashing? Or is Vettel an incompetent driver who can't defend his position without making contact?

Lest we forget Webber was second in the c'ship...

[tfp]

No matter how much stick mark gets for having a go at seb, at least he provided some entertainment, I want to see them race, not coast to the finish.
Anyway, whos to say seb wouldnt have tried the same thing if the shoe was on the other foot? Oh, wait a minute....

[tfp]

I say that without trying to have a dig at seb, he won that battle fair and square, top marks to him!

[markabilly]

They were investigated as far as I know but was backed up when the FIA took a fuel sample from both cars which indicated both were low on fuel. Although it seems dodgy to you and I, the FIA accepted the instruction given by the team was consistent with their analysis.

Keep drinking that kool aid, pretty soon you will even beleive that Ioan beleives every word from Lewis when he says i never cheated, lied, choked, but i am the best there ever was.........and whatever


and then here comes mr copier, not sure why he is not bac at the mac

Yep, Lewis says there weren't never no team orders to hold him down, why even fussed at the FIA about it at monaco, back when Freddie would not move over for him at the mac..

Maybe Webber should man up and go fussie wassie ala lewis style, so the FIA can put somebody in the pits to check those air pressure readings in the tire.



or did he do that just running his mouth off to the press

[SGWilko]

If anyone can translate this for me, I'd be grateful........Actually forget that.

I can. Everything he said was b*ll5h!t. :laugh:

[tfp]

I can. Everything he said was b*ll5h!t. :laugh:

Haha!

[vhatever]

Smarthouse? "Close friends in england"? ROFL. Even the english media wouldn't manufacture such nonsense. Looks like the aussies one-upped them, using their vaunted "TVS & LARGE DISPLAY / INDUSTRY" section.

Mark has been about .3 seconds slower than his teammate since vettel got there, and that hasn't changed this year, only vettel has been more consistent since he had that blown engine while leading the race by a country mile at the end of last season.

[vhatever]

I think you're right but with stories like this you'll always get questions that will find their way to the heart of the matter. Just look at what happened at Mclaren in 2007. Alonso made a couple of comments about being hampered to help his teammate and the Spanish FIA representative advised scruntineers were put in place to ensure equality. As it happened it turned out to be total tripe and Alonso was quick to say he is always given equal treatment and didn't think scruntineers were necessary. Webber may not have said anything here but the media have got hold of it, and we could end up seeing a similar investigation. Then again this could all just be gossip from an Aussie news rag.


Did you not read that it is in "smarthouse" a consumer website, and the article is written in their Large TV section and cites "friends in England"? ROFLMAO.

[555-04Q2]

Anyway, whos to say seb wouldnt have tried the same thing if the shoe was on the other foot? Oh, wait a minute....

Mark has to get in front of Vettel first to test that theory ;)

[SGWilko]

Did you not read that it is in "smarthouse" a consumer website, and the article is written in their Large TV section and cites "friends in England"? ROFLMAO.

I find the best place to write is in a study. There's usually too many distractions in the large TV section........

[steveaki13]

If anyone can translate this for me, I'd be grateful........Actually forget that.


No luck here either.

[The Black Knight]

Keep drinking that kool aid, pretty soon you will even beleive that Ioan beleives every word from Lewis when he says i never cheated, lied, choked, but i am the best there ever was.........and whatever


and then here comes mr copier, not sure why he is not bac at the mac

Yep, Lewis says there weren't never no team orders to hold him down, why even fussed at the FIA about it at monaco, back when Freddie would not move over for him at the mac..

Maybe Webber should man up and go fussie wassie ala lewis style, so the FIA can put somebody in the pits to check those air pressure readings in the tire.



or did he do that just running his mouth off to the press

This is spectacularly inept at making any point whatsoever.

I think I know a guy that can help you...

2803

[jas123f1]

I don't understand why people make so much noise of this – F1 has a lot of different rules and as long as teams are working according to them, it must be ok.

I would have more understanding if Seb had been in the lead, but as it now was he had no chance to win – so why not calm down a bit – I think that’s the reason to the team order that the drivers didn’t need to drive their cars in the limit.. No one knows if Mark really had a chance to overtake. I don’t think he had, therefore he made a wrong decision when he ignored the teams decision.. I hope it was the last time.. because Red Bull is giving an upright chance to both drivers and next time it may be Seb who gets the team's decision “against” him.

[Hawkmoon]

I don't understand why people make so much noise of this – F1 has a lot of different rules and as long as teams are working according to them, it must be ok.

I would have more understanding if Seb had been in the lead, but as it now was he had no chance to win – so why not calm down a bit – I think that’s the reason to the team order that the drivers didn’t need to drive their cars in the limit.. No one knows if Mark really had a chance to overtake. I don’t think he had, therefore he made a wrong decision when he ignored the teams decision.. I hope it was the last time.. because Red Bull is giving an upright chance to both drivers and next time it may be Seb who gets the team's decision “against” him.

I don't think the issue is team orders per se. It's their application by a team that was vehemently against team orders less than 12 months ago. As a Ferrari fan I find it particularly annoying that Red Bull would impose team orders after they bad-mouthed Ferrari so much last year. I understand the legal vs illegal issue but it's beside the point. Red Bull's stated philosophy was that they were against team orders. Mateschitz reiterated that philosphy after Silverstone which directly contradicted Horner's use of team orders. Red Bull acted hypocritically and I think the fans have every right to call them on it.

In the face of the criticism they received after Silverstone Red Bull could have simply said "now that team orders are legal we will use them to serve the best interests of the team", but they didn't. Horner excused the team orders by saying he didn't wan't to risk the points. That's a political way of saying one thing while meaning another. What Horner mean't was "Vettel is our best chance of the title and we will do everything we can to ensure he wins it". He didn't have the guts to come out and say it and we know why after Mateschitz later backed Webber.

[F1boat]

Smarthouse? "Close friends in england"? ROFL. Even the english media wouldn't manufacture such nonsense. Looks like the aussies one-upped them, using their vaunted "TVS & LARGE DISPLAY / INDUSTRY" section.

Mark has been about .3 seconds slower than his teammate since vettel got there, and that hasn't changed this year, only vettel has been more consistent since he had that blown engine while leading the race by a country mile at the end of last season.

This. I think also that Webber was very disappointed to lose last year and probably he lost some of his self-confidence.

[Mia 01]

This. I think also that Webber was very disappointed to lose last year and probably he lost some of his self-confidence.

Yes, Mark is a proud guy, nothing wrong with that, but then, you most also think forward even on track. Some drivers don´t. Mark is not alone in this sence.

[Bagwan]

"We had a chat straight after the race debrief. Christian put his view forward of how the situation built and he came to decision he made, and I put my case forward in how the situation built and we thought that we were both making the right decision, him to make the call for the team's interest and I was in a situation where I was trying to improve my own position," .

"We spoke about it, he guaranteed me that it would have been the same situation the other way around if Seb was closing in on me, he would have still shut the race down. It was over pretty quick really.

"If there is a similar situation, it is not often that you are closing in the last few laps, that was the awkward one I think.

"We are still free to race most of the time - it was an awkward one and it is not often that things like that happen in terms of the time of the race, and up until then we will be racing."


So , Mark is ok with team orders then ?

Why did he need this situation explained to him ?

Can we now expect the petulant millionaire to follow the orders of his team without question ?

[Retro Formula 1]

"We had a chat straight after the race debrief. Christian tore me a new one.


Christian put his view forward of how the situation built and he came to decision he made, and I put my case forward in how the situation built and we thought that we were both making the right decision, him to make the call for the team's interest and I was in a situation where I was trying to improve my own position," . Christian toldme how it was and explained I was the number 2 while I mumbled some excuse.


"We spoke about it, he guaranteed me that it would have been the same situation the other way around if Seb was closing in on me, he would have still shut the race down. It was over pretty quick really. If it were the other way around, I would be asked to slow to let Seb past.


"If there is a similar situation, it is not often that you are closing in the last few laps, that was the awkward one I think. They will make sure I don't get that close in future.


"We are still free to race most of the time - it was an awkward one and it is not often that things like that happen in terms of the time of the race, and up until then we will be racing." As long as I don't get in the way of course.