Phone hacking, what to do? [Archive]

Daniel

6th July 2011, 08:59

Families of 7/7 victims 'were targets of phone hacking' | Media | The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2011/jul/06/families-7-7-targets-phone-hacking?mobile-redirect=false)

Missing Milly Dowler's voicemail was hacked by News of the World | UK news | The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/jul/04/milly-dowler-voicemail-hacked-news-of-world)

So what should be done about this? Hacking into the voicemail of some celebrity is bad enough, but hacking into the voicemail of a girl who was missing, listening to her messages and then clearing messages when the mailbox ran out of space is just not acceptable at all. When Milly Dowler's voicemails were cleared her relatives were given false hope that she was still alive.

If I were in government I'd give the newspaper a £1 Billion fine for each phone hacked and the people involved would get a 20 year jail sentence for each phone hacked also. I suspect the conservatives will do nothing other than to say that it's terrible..... To do this to a celebrity is wrong, people deserve privacy, but to do it to a family who had a missing child and to get in the way of a Police investigation.... well words just fail to express how bad this is.

MrJan

6th July 2011, 09:07

The Mail would be in a world of hurt then, going by the statistics on Page 11 of this report.

http://www.ico.gov.uk/upload/documents/library/corporate/research_and_reports/what_price_privacy_now.pdf

In fact, with the Mail on Sunday included, they'd be looking to pay at least £1,200 Billion (I believe that's £1.2 Trillion).

It's ****ing disgusting but no doubt we'll have a bit of public outrage for a while, a few companies will give some hot air apology that actually commits to nothing (e.g Ford saying that they will "look at advertising elsewhere during the investigation"), then another scandal will pop up (probably launched by the NOTW and something to do with MPs) and we'll all forget about it.

Daniel

6th July 2011, 09:20

In fact, with the Mail on Sunday included, they'd be looking to pay at least £1,200 Billion (I believe that's £1.2 Trillion).

Well if that's what it takes ;) heck we'd soon solve the debt crisis :D

MrJan

6th July 2011, 09:29

And I noticed after writing that I didn't include the offences of the Saturday or Sunday magazines that come with the Mail.

This is interesting too. See if you can spot, if you didn't know already, which newspaper is owned by the same lot that own the NOTW.
Can anyone spot the odd one out? #notw on Twitpic (http://twitpic.com/5lxpqg/full)

Dave B

6th July 2011, 09:48

Just a quick thought: if Coulson and Brooks genuinely didn't know about the industrial scale hacking on their watch, as they claim, they are grossly incompetent.

MrJan

6th July 2011, 09:54

Just a quick thought: if Coulson and Brooks genuinely didn't know about the industrial scale hacking on their watch, as they claim, they are grossly incompetent.

Indeed. Although as Brooks commissioned the PI for some other work it's quite difficult to believe that she wouldn't have known about the paper using him further.
Revealed: Brooks’ past link with Milly private detective - Crime, UK - The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/revealed-brooksrsquo-past-link-with-milly-private-detective-2307517.html)

Malbec

6th July 2011, 12:10

Indeed. Although as Brooks commissioned the PI for some other work it's quite difficult to believe that she wouldn't have known about the paper using him further.

I think the whole thing was set up so that there could be 'plausible deniability'. "Sure we hired him but we didn't know what he was up to and how he got us the info".

The root problem is that the press is self-policing, and they aren't too interested in clamping down on each other. Most newspapers were quite quiet about the NOTW hacking stuff until the very latest revelations.

The PCC is run by the press for the press and hardly ever censures the media. It should be made independent and funded by someone else, probably the state and given the freedom to impose fines for breeching standards.

Robinho

6th July 2011, 12:33

the best thing that can happen is a massive pile of unsold newspapers. The Ad revenue will be down, if they go a few weeks with people genuinely boycotting the papers then they will be in a lot of trouble very quickly, papers run on prety tight pargins and as soon as you cut the circulation they will be in pain. For them to claim they new nothing about it is almost as insulting as the acts themselves, the mere fact that there is obviously a systematic abuse of the mobile phones of many people proves that this is not a rogue reporter or external person, but something that is in all liklihood taught by the paper itself. I suspect this will get a lot worse, now we are hearing of potential links to the phones of families in the Soham murders, the 7/7 victims and the McCanns. How long before reporters start turning up dead in apparent suicides with notes spilling the beans on more affairs? if this takes out the NOTW and hopefully the Sun then its the start of a good thing. If this is able to even remotely hurt the murdoch empire then all the better. Its a pity i don't buy the papers normally so i could boycott them now, but i urge anyone to do that. There are plenty of groups threatening to boycott products that do advertise with News International, with the advent of message boards, facebook, twitter and the like the collective voice and organisation of disgruntled public is much stronger and quicker to act than ever before.

MrJan

6th July 2011, 12:46

Dave B

6th July 2011, 14:19

Debate in Parliament now. This could be the tabloids' "expenses moment", when the public finally realise how utterly morally bankrupt they are.

Daniel

6th July 2011, 14:20

Debate in Parliament now. This could be the tabloids' "expenses moment", when the public finally realise how utterly morally bankrupt they are.

But where will people get their tits from? Think of the tits man!!!!

Daniel

6th July 2011, 14:21

The problem is that most of the people that are on about the boycott never bought the NOTW anyway, so it's all a bit redundant. Unless a few big name companies actually drop advertsiing (not just say that they're looking into it) THEN there could be some sort of attention paid to it. Until then we might be lucky to get a 'sacking' where the person crops up in a similar role in 2 months. Other than that we'll be status quo by the end of the month.

I think sadly you're right :( The sort of person who buys these sorts of papers probably thinks that the ends justify the means, that the govt is inherently corrupt and we need corrupt newspapers to keep on top of them or they simply don't care.

wedge

6th July 2011, 15:36

Just a quick thought: if Coulson and Brooks genuinely didn't know about the industrial scale hacking on their watch, as they claim, they are grossly incompetent.

Like Ron Dennis was grossly incompetent regarding a cabal which formed via photocopied Ferrari documents in 2008, before Alonso decided to blackmail Dennis?

Malbec

6th July 2011, 17:12

The problem is that most of the people that are on about the boycott never bought the NOTW anyway, so it's all a bit redundant. Unless a few big name companies actually drop advertsiing (not just say that they're looking into it) THEN there could be some sort of attention paid to it. Until then we might be lucky to get a 'sacking' where the person crops up in a similar role in 2 months. Other than that we'll be status quo by the end of the month.

Even if any companies drop the NOTW they'll run back to it in a few months time. Anyway, most newspapers were involved in this kind of thing, books like 'Flat Earth News' brought the problem up years ago

The PCC needs to be reformed ASAP and made independent. Once newspapers have more to lose than merely making an apology in the back pages and giving a small amount of compensation they might clean their act up.

Dave B

6th July 2011, 17:15

The PCC has just been described in Parliament as "a fishnet condom". Correctly, in my opinion.

Mark

6th July 2011, 18:26

We've yet to have a major company come along and say that they will never advertise in the NOTW again.

Jag_Warrior

6th July 2011, 19:18

So what should be done about this? Hacking into the voicemail of some celebrity is bad enough, but hacking into the voicemail of a girl who was missing, listening to her messages and then clearing messages when the mailbox ran out of space is just not acceptable at all. When Milly Dowler's voicemails were cleared her relatives were given false hope that she was still alive.

If I were in government I'd give the newspaper a Billion fine for each phone hacked and the people involved would get a 20 year jail sentence for each phone hacked also. I suspect the conservatives will do nothing other than to say that it's terrible..... To do this to a celebrity is wrong, people deserve privacy, but to do it to a family who had a missing child and to get in the way of a Police investigation.... well words just fail to express how bad this is.

This is one of the sickest things I've read about a company doing in a LONG time. Yes, clearly the (future) penalty is going to have to be something that's nearly crippling.

I also read the memo/email that the female editor (Brooks?) sent out to her staff. Can she spin it or what? I've seen some smooth, slick people in my life. But I don't think you could get butter to melt in her mouth. That baby killer in Florida should have hired this woman as her attorney, and she'd have never gone to jail in the first place.

But apparently Murdoch has close ties to Cameron and others in the UK government, so I'm not expecting this to affect him or News Corp at all. Some time will pass, people will be upset for a bit, they'll quietly settle any lawsuit the family brings... and then it'll be back to business as usual.

Sick! Really sick! These lowlifes cleared the dead girl's phone messages and made her parents and the cops think that maybe she was still alive.

Jag_Warrior

6th July 2011, 19:28

I'm pretty sure the CEO of my company doesn't know everything that goes on and he takes an active interest in most projects we do.

In addition to 100% health care coverage, stock options that vest immediately and use of the corporate jet for private use, many CEO's have another (unwritten) benefit: plausible deniability. He will know about all the good stuff that takes place. But if he attends a corporate retreat with hookers and Cristal champagne... he can't even remember being there. Afterall, it was his assistant who made the reservations.

Dave B

6th July 2011, 22:25

BBC News - Dead soldiers' families 'hacked by newspaper' (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14052909?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter)

Utterly indefensible. Scum. Sick sick scum.

Rollo

7th July 2011, 01:47

The Guardian has published a list quotes of "denials" on the issue:
Murdoch executives, police and PCC: Phone hacking denials | Media | The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2011/jul/06/murdoch-executive-phone-hacking-denials)
I think that the Grauniad is being a little bit kind in calling this a list of "denials", when it is in fact mostly lies.

Mind you I wouldn't expect anything less from a News Corp newspaper. They're not above making stuff up if it suits their purposes.

Dave B

7th July 2011, 08:00

Excellent piece, and in a Tory newspaper to boot:

David Cameron is in the sewer because of his News International friends – Telegraph Blogs (http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/peteroborne/100095686/david-cameron-is-in-the-sewer-because-of-his-news-international-friends/)

Rollo

7th July 2011, 08:28

Just a quick thought: if Coulson and Brooks genuinely didn't know about the industrial scale hacking on their watch, as they claim, they are grossly incompetent.

Or lying.

Phone hacking: Rupert Murdoch 'urged Gordon Brown' to halt Labour attacks | UK news | guardian.co.uk (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/apr/09/phone-hacking-rupert-murdoch-gordon-brown)
Rupert Murdoch used his political influence and contacts at the highest levels to try to get Labour MPs and peers to back away from investigations into phone hacking at the News of the World, a former minister in Gordon Brown's government has told the Observer.
The ex-minister, who does not want to be named, says he is aware of evidence that Murdoch, the chairman of News Corporation, relayed messages to Brown last year via a third party, urging him to help take the political heat out of the row, which he felt was in danger of damaging his company.

If Rupert Himself knew what was going on at the News Of The World, then Coulson and Brooks must surely have known. If the man at the very top is pushing around the government, then surely he must've have that relayed to him upwards through the management chain.

If this sort of thing was going on at the News Of The World, what's not to say that it wasn't going on at The Sun, The Times, or elsewhere through the organisation such as Sky News or Fox?

Retro Formula 1

7th July 2011, 09:55

But where will people get their tits from? Think of the tits man!!!!

They could always join this forum :D

I think calling for such punitive measures as have been mentioned on here is a wee bit knee jerk. It looks like we will get a full enquiry which, considering the alleged extent of these claims, is the only just option.

If, as most of us suspect to be the case, it is proven that the extent of the claims is as alleged, then the retribution will be severe. NOTW will be proven to be morally bereft and throughly discredited. Their actions will disgust most people and hopefully expose gutter journalism for what it really is.

The only problem is that it wont make much difference really unless proactive action is taken against NOTW and if proven, SKY Corporation as well. The populace of the UK has this morbid fascination with scandal. The people who buy the NOTW will continue to fund this corrupt organisation to get their fix of tits and tittle tattle.

Perhaps the NOTW is a better reflection of large elements of our society than we would like to admit.

Daniel

7th July 2011, 12:26

They could always join this forum :D

I think calling for such punitive measures as have been mentioned on here is a wee bit knee jerk. It looks like we will get a full enquiry which, considering the alleged extent of these claims, is the only just option.

If, as most of us suspect to be the case, it is proven that the extent of the claims is as alleged, then the retribution will be severe. NOTW will be proven to be morally bereft and throughly discredited. Their actions will disgust most people and hopefully expose gutter journalism for what it really is.

The only problem is that it wont make much difference really unless proactive action is taken against NOTW and if proven, SKY Corporation as well. The populace of the UK has this morbid fascination with scandal. The people who buy the NOTW will continue to fund this corrupt organisation to get their fix of tits and tittle tattle.

Perhaps the NOTW is a better reflection of large elements of our society than we would like to admit.

Since when has reflecting views of the majority of the public meant that it's RIGHT to do these sort of things?

An enquiry will just be a whitewash and you know it, a couple of people will get scapegoated and the practice will probably continue on.

Honestly, if there was a 1 billion pound fine for phonehacking, would anyone do it?

Retro Formula 1

7th July 2011, 13:25

Since when has reflecting views of the majority of the public meant that it's RIGHT to do these sort of things?

That's the joy of living in a democracy rather than a dictatorship.

An enquiry will just be a whitewash and you know it, a couple of people will get scapegoated and the practise will probably continue on.

Enquiries are rarely whitewashes unless they don't support your views. Which recent enquiry has been a Whitewash in your opinion?

Honestly, if there was a 1 billion pound fine for phonehacking, would anyone do it?

That opinion is rather naive isn't it? The people guilty of these invasions of privacy are pretty despicable in my opinion. Their morals disgust me and they have offended many people but a billion quid fine and 20 years in jail for each instance? Are you living in la-la land or something?

You seem to categorise these offences as far more serious than people that are guilty on physical offences like assault, rape and murder.

No Daniel. I think we will investigate this throughly and treat the people to a fair trial under the current judicial guidelines and then look at how the media needs to be regulated to prevent these disgraceful events happening again. Much more sensible than knee jerk baying for blood and mob rule.

markabilly

7th July 2011, 13:42

But where will people get their tits from? Think of the tits man!!!!

You sound scared.

Just what will you do for tits???

anyway the sooner that old POS called Murdoche gets flushed down the sewer, the better the world will be.

markabilly

7th July 2011, 13:46

No Daniel. I think we will investigate this throughly and treat the people to a fair trial under the current judicial guidelines and then look at how the media needs to be regulated to prevent these disgraceful events happening again. Much more sensible than knee jerk baying for blood and mob rule.

I agree, regulate now and be thorough.

The next thing they might do is say something negative about the Queen and her little moronic offspring and who they gonna wed/bed next.

Now can not have that, can we?

And the regulators need to put a stop on calling Bush "and idiot"....

Besides, if it were not for the raping of people's privacy, how would we have ever known about the "not nazi dress up party" of max?????

markabilly

7th July 2011, 13:48

The PCC has just been described in Parliament as "a fishnet condom". Correctly, in my opinion.

explains how donkey came into the world...........................if i had only known, i would have stuck to pirrelli rubbers

Daniel

7th July 2011, 13:49

Enquiries are rarely whitewashes unless they don't support your views. Which recent enquiry has been a Whitewash in your opinion?

Oh I dunno, perhaps the last enquiry into phone hacking?

That opinion is rather naive isn't it? The people guilty of these invasions of privacy are pretty despicable in my opinion. Their morals disgust me and they have offended many people but a billion quid fine and 20 years in jail for each instance? Are you living in la-la land or something?

You seem to categorise these offences as far more serious than people that are guilty on physical offences like assault, rape and murder.

No Daniel. I think we will investigate this throughly and treat the people to a fair trial under the current judicial guidelines and then look at how the media needs to be regulated to prevent these disgraceful events happening again. Much more sensible than knee jerk baying for blood and mob rule.

Mob rule? How is what I'm suggesting mob rule? :dozey:

Seriously, make it law that from today if you're involved in this then your company gets a 1 billion pound fine and you get 20 years jail time and it will be unlikely that this will happen again.

Typical Knock on crap.....

Daniel

7th July 2011, 13:50

I agree, regulate now and be thorough.

The next thing they might do is say something negative about the Queen and her little moronic offspring and who they gonna wed/bed next.

Now can not have that, can we?

And the regulators need to put a stop on calling Bush "and idiot"....

Bullpoop. Regulate my butt. If the rewards for phone hacking are so big and the penalties so small then it'll continue on and CEO's and editors will merely blame the guy at the bottom of the pile.

markabilly

7th July 2011, 13:53

Bullpoop. Regulate my butt. If the rewards for phone hacking are so big and the penalties so small then it'll continue on and CEO's and editors will merely blame the guy at the bottom of the pile.

and party like it 1943..............max style.

actually it were satire

Dave B

7th July 2011, 14:22

'Murdoch staff pay Met £100k in bribes': Arrests imminent over illegal payments | News (http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23967889-diabolical-practice-families-of-war-dead-were-hack-targets.do)

Scummy newspaper acting like scum isn't the real story here, it's the apparent corruption of the police and the almost certain knowledge of Cameron.

Dave B

7th July 2011, 14:24

Apologies for self quoting but I urge anyone who hasn't yet done so to read this article:

Excellent piece, and in a Tory newspaper to boot:

David Cameron is in the sewer because of his News International friends – Telegraph Blogs (http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/peteroborne/100095686/david-cameron-is-in-the-sewer-because-of-his-news-international-friends/)

Mark

7th July 2011, 14:30

It now seems to be emerging that far from being isolated cases it was in fact standard operating practice to hack the phones of anyone they are writing a story about.

Dave B

7th July 2011, 14:56

Indeed, this oft-mentioned "rogue reporter" must have been the one who *wasn't* hacking.
War dead, 13 year old murder victims, 7/7 relatives, seems the NotW's depravity knew no bounds.

Retro Formula 1

7th July 2011, 15:31

Indeed, this oft-mentioned "rogue reporter" must have been the one who *wasn't* hacking.
War dead, 13 year old murder victims, 7/7 relatives, seems the NotW's depravity knew no bounds.

It really is shocking and coupled with the police bribery, pretty damning.

I can see a lot of fall-out for Mr Murdoch here as I suspect this goes beyond the NOTW.

BTW, I don't think it's fair to single out Cameron as being up the Media Mogul's backside. The last lot were just as bad and as soon as the scale became apparent, he committed to a full public inquiry. To the best of my knowledge, there hasn't been a whitewash as it hasn't taken place yet.

Daniel

7th July 2011, 15:32

It really is shocking and coupled with the police bribery, pretty damning.

I can see a lot of fall-out for Mr Murdoch here as I suspect this goes beyond the NOTW.

BTW, I don't think it's fair to single out Cameron as being up the Media Mogul's backside. The last lot were just as bad and as soon as the scale became apparent, he committed to a full public inquiry. To the best of my knowledge, there hasn't been a whitewash as it hasn't taken place yet.

I agree with this, lets have an enquiry, say that everyone is naughty to be doing this and lets hope it never happens again :rolleyes:

Retro Formula 1

7th July 2011, 15:40

Oh I dunno, perhaps the last enquiry into phone hacking?

Mob rule? How is what I'm suggesting mob rule? :dozey:

Seriously, make it law that from today if you're involved in this then your company gets a 1 billion pound fine and you get 20 years jail time and it will be unlikely that this will happen again.

Typical Knock on crap.....

Again, you seem to lose all sense of perspective. You might just as well say that we will fine speeders £1M and jail them for 20 years. After all, speeding is illegal and kills thousands of people a year. To the best of my knowledge, nobody has been physically harmed or killed by phone hacking?

Also, you may not appreciate someone posting a different view to yourself but it's a bit silly to dismiss it as crap isn't it? What parts didn't you understand.

Retro Formula 1

7th July 2011, 15:43

I agree with this, lets have an enquiry, say that everyone is naughty to be doing this and lets hope it never happens again :rolleyes:

Or, have an enquiry, determine who has been naughty and punish them according to the law and take steps to hopefully ensure this doesn't happen again.

There you go. Easy isn't it.

Daniel

7th July 2011, 15:43

Daniel

7th July 2011, 15:45

Or, have an enquiry, determine who has been naughty and punish them according to the law and take steps to hopefully ensure this doesn't happen again.

There you go. Easy isn't it.

They will do nothing. A couple of high ranking people like Brooks will lose their jobs and that will be that. That this will stop phone hacking from happening in the future is merely a delusional hope that only you seem to hold.

Mark

7th July 2011, 16:58

Well it looks like the NOTW is done. It's closing down and Sunday's edition will be the last.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14070733

Daniel

7th July 2011, 17:04

Well it looks like the NOTW is done. It's closing down and Sunday's edition will be the last.

BBC News - News of the World to close amid hacking scandal (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14070733)

WOW

Mark

7th July 2011, 17:05

How long before it's relaunched as the Sunday Sun or similar. (Except it can't be called the Sunday Sun as it already exists in the North East of England)

Malbec

7th July 2011, 17:13

How long before it's relaunched as the Sunday Sun or similar. (Except it can't be called the Sunday Sun as it already exists in the North East of England)

I was thinking that, how about the Sun on Sunday?

Looks like the Murdochs REALLY want the whole of BSkyB if they're prepared to sacrifice the NOTW to kill all the negative publicity. I hope their purchase is shut down though.

Mark

7th July 2011, 17:17

Yeah I came to the same conclusion 'The Sun on Sunday' is the most likely outcome.

Dave B

7th July 2011, 17:29

The bit of BSkyB that Murdoch wants to buy makes many times the profit of NotW. This is simple economics from Rupert, sacrifice one paper to smooth takeover of massive media group. He's still scum, he still has to be blocked.

Dave B

7th July 2011, 17:37

WHOIS Query (http://webwhois.nic.uk/cgi-bin/whois.cgi?query=thesunonsunday.co.uk)

Note the date of registration.

Mark

7th July 2011, 17:42

Just heard that on the news now

Dave B

7th July 2011, 18:52

Rebekah Brooks: the human shield for James Murdoch – Telegraph Blogs (http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/damianthompson/100095919/rebekah-brooks-the-human-shield-for-james-murdoch/)

She must be sh--ting bricks. Hopefully.

Daniel

7th July 2011, 19:04

WHOIS Query (http://webwhois.nic.uk/cgi-bin/whois.cgi?query=thesunonsunday.co.uk)

Note the date of registration.

Could just be an opportunist?

Dave B

7th July 2011, 19:11

Yeah I came to the same conclusion 'The Sun on Sunday' is the most likely outcome.

It's like Jordan morphing into Katie Price: same slag different dress.

Daniel

7th July 2011, 19:57

Sunday Sun confirmed :rotflmao:

Rollo

8th July 2011, 00:00

Again, you seem to lose all sense of perspective. You might just as well say that we will fine speeders £1M and jail them for 20 years. After all, speeding is illegal and kills thousands of people a year. To the best of my knowledge, nobody has been physically harmed or killed by phone hacking?

Also, you may not appreciate someone posting a different view to yourself but it's a bit silly to dismiss it as crap isn't it? What parts didn't you understand.

Losing Perspective? FEH!

Nobody has been physically harmed or killed by phone hacking true, but unlike ONE speeding motorist, we are possibly talking about FOUR THOUSAND victims.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2011/jul/07/phone-hacking-victims-thousands-sue-akers
The senior detective leading the phone hacking inquiry said on Thursday that there were 4,000 possible victims of phone hacking listed in the pages of private eye Glenn Muclaire's notebooks and they were being contacted "as quickly as possible".

This isn't just the tale of a few people being hacked, but an endemic problem lasting for a long time.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/jun/08/phone-hacking-kate-middleton-tony-blair
Guardian inquiries reveal that the former prime minister Tony Blair is among the suspected victims of Jonathan Rees, who was involved in the theft of confidential data, the hacking of computers and, it is alleged, burglary. According to close associates of Rees, he also targeted:
• Jack Straw when he was home secretary, Peter Mandelson when he was trade secretary and Blair's media adviser Alastair Campbell;

Let's look a matter of perspective shall we? Suspected victims include Ministers of the Crown, the Royal Family and the then editor of the News Of The World was working for a time as David Cameron's head of communications.

Again, you seem to lose all sense of perspective.

I reject your fantasy and substitute reality.

ArrowsFA1

8th July 2011, 08:28

Andy Coulson has been told by police that he will be arrested on Friday morning over suspicions that he knew about, or had direct involvement in, the hacking of mobile phones during his editorship of the News of the World.
Andy Coulson to be arrested over phone hacking | Media | The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2011/jul/07/andy-coulson-arrest-phone-hacking)

This is all likely to get far, far worse for Murdoch, and maybe Cameron, before it's over. Closing the NOTW is just a sideshow that does absolutely nothing to restore any faith in News International.

Dave B

8th July 2011, 09:03

Since when have we been giving people advance notice if their arrest? Hope he's got a good shredder.

Daniel

8th July 2011, 09:28

Since when have we been giving people advance notice if their arrest? Hope he's got a good shredder.

I think you may have just answered your own question there Dave :D

Retro Formula 1

8th July 2011, 09:35

Losing Perspective? FEH!

Nobody has been physically harmed or killed by phone hacking true, but unlike ONE speeding motorist, we are possibly talking about FOUR THOUSAND victims.

Phone hacking victims could number 4,000, says senior detective | Media | guardian.co.uk (http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2011/jul/07/phone-hacking-victims-thousands-sue-akers)
The senior detective leading the phone hacking inquiry said on Thursday that there were 4,000 possible victims of phone hacking listed in the pages of private eye Glenn Muclaire's notebooks and they were being contacted "as quickly as possible".

This isn't just the tale of a few people being hacked, but an endemic problem lasting for a long time.

Phone-hacking scandal widens to include Kate Middleton and Tony Blair | Media | guardian.co.uk (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/jun/08/phone-hacking-kate-middleton-tony-blair)
Guardian inquiries reveal that the former prime minister Tony Blair is among the suspected victims of Jonathan Rees, who was involved in the theft of confidential data, the hacking of computers and, it is alleged, burglary. According to close associates of Rees, he also targeted:
• Jack Straw when he was home secretary, Peter Mandelson when he was trade secretary and Blair's media adviser Alastair Campbell;

Let's look a matter of perspective shall we? Suspected victims include Ministers of the Crown, the Royal Family and the then editor of the News Of The World was working for a time as David Cameron's head of communications.

I reject your fantasy and substitute reality.

Rollo. It's rare for someone as intelligent and insightful as your good self to not read the thread properly so I can only assume you mistook the intention of my post. I will clarify.

My post about perspective was in reference to Daniel claiming that he would immediately change the law so that each instance of hacking resulted in a 20 year prison sentence and a £1bn fine. I may be living in fantasy but as disgusting and morally bereft these criminals are, should we really treat them harsher than paedophiles, murderers and rapists? If as you claim, there were 1,000 victims, and countless examples within each one, then the £trillions£ raised could be used to build the additional prisons needed to house most of the journalist community ;)

Now, don't get me wrong. I think the people that committed these crimes should be ruthlessly pursued to identify them and ensure they are brought to face the full consequences of the law. I also hope they are identified and castigated by their profession and the wider public but we need a full investigation to root out all of the perpetrators and then process them through the proper judicial system.

Daniel

8th July 2011, 09:37

Daniel

8th July 2011, 09:44

Rollo. It's rare for someone as intelligent and insightful as your good self to not read the thread properly so I can only assume you mistook the intention of my post. I will clarify.

My post about perspective was in reference to Daniel claiming that he would immediately change the law so that each instance of hacking resulted in a 20 year prison sentence and a £1bn fine. I may be living in fantasy but as disgusting and morally bereft these criminals are, should we really treat them harsher than paedophiles, murderers and rapists? If as you claim, there were 1,000 victims, and countless examples within each one, then the £trillions£ raised could be used to build the additional prisons needed to house most of the journalist community ;)

Now, don't get me wrong. I think the people that committed these crimes should be ruthlessly pursued to identify them and ensure they are brought to face the full consequences of the law. I also hope they are identified and castigated by their profession and the wider public but we need a full investigation to root out all of the perpetrators and then process them through the proper judicial system.

You still don't get it? If there was a £1bn fine for phone hacking and 20 years for all involved then would people do it at all? To compare this with paedophilia is just dumb, paedophiles have urges and although they know what they're doing is wrong and that if caught they'll go to jail, but for them the benefits outweigh the negatives in their sick minds. I am not suggesting of course that we retrospectively punish companies under new laws, that would be stupid, but the papers should be given an amnesty to disclose what they've done and then any future or deliberately undisclosed offences should be dealt with most harshly.

Journalists have a duty and are expected to act in a certain way. These people in this circumstance have abused our trust and behaved in a despicable way and should feel the full weight of the law against them and their employers should be penalised in such a way that will make them stand up and listen and not stand idly by whilst this happens or encourage it in any way shape or form.

But you'll have your way and we'll have one of these pissweak enquiries which gets tabled in a few years time when this has all blown over at which point nothing gets done........ :dozey:

Dave B

8th July 2011, 09:47

The tabloids are always telling us that prisons are holiday camps with plasma tvs and playstations so I'm sure the hackers and their bosses have nothing to worry about.

Mark

8th July 2011, 10:06

Sunday Sun confirmed :rotflmao:

Link please!

Daniel

8th July 2011, 10:07

Was on das BBC last night. Will try to find a link.

Mark

8th July 2011, 10:13

Latest news said Murdoch hasn't confirmed. It's just extremely likely. The only question is the timing, will it be seamless leaving no gap for competitors to get into.

Malbec

8th July 2011, 10:40

One thing that annoys me about this is that if we had a proper opposition they'd be all over the condem's for this.

I know some conservative MP's were calling for the sale of BSkyB to be put on hold and that's encouraging, but ffs, Labour should be going further and saying that this should NEVER go ahead, you can see that the Lib Dem's were never hugely comfortable with it and now they've got a golden opportunity to stop it. As Arnie would say.... DO IT! DO IT NOWWWWWWWWWWWWW!!!!!!

Also, Andy Coulson, wasn't he some Downing Street communications spokesman?. Why are they not throwing mud at Dave? This is the freaking ideal time to show the symbiotic relationship between Newscorp and Dave and really hurt him but instead Ed is being all nice about it :dozey:

Given how tight Murdoch and Labour were, particularly in the Blair years, the Labour party have little moral superiority over the Tories in this matter. They can't sling mud without a lot of it sticking back on them.

As for your spat with retro, I think you're both talking about the same thing. Increased regulation of the press from an independent body that has the power to give serious fines and if needed shut newspapers down in extreme cases.

I would not want phone hacking to be banned completely sadly because I suspect that in some cases that are in the public interest voicemail hacking might be one of the few ways of getting information. Had we been reading about some major Watergate style government coverup that had only been revealed through phone hacking I doubt we'd really be too concerned about the process. Its only because people like dead soldiers' families etc have had their phones hacked that the public are so upset.

Daniel

8th July 2011, 10:44

Given how tight Murdoch and Labour were, particularly in the Blair years, the Labour party have little moral superiority over the Tories in this matter. They can't sling mud without a lot of it sticking back on them.

As for your spat with retro, I think you're both talking about the same thing. Increased regulation of the press from an independent body that has the power to give serious fines and if needed shut newspapers down in extreme cases.

I would not want phone hacking to be banned completely sadly because I suspect that in some cases that are in the public interest voicemail hacking might be one of the few ways of getting information. Had we been reading about some major Watergate style government coverup that had only been revealed through phone hacking I doubt we'd really be too concerned about the process. Its only because people like dead soldiers' families etc have had their phones hacked that the public are so upset.

I agree mostly.

I understand where you're coming from in terms of phone hacking in the interests of the public, but until the hack has been done the person doesn't really know what's going to be in there? Tbh if a journalist feels so strongly that there is something to be gained by hacking a mailbox then should they not contact the police and get them to get a seach warrant?

ArrowsFA1

8th July 2011, 11:04

Given how tight Murdoch and Labour were, particularly in the Blair years, the Labour party have little moral superiority over the Tories in this matter.
:up:

Politicians generally have cultivated the press as they know if they don't their views and policies won't be well received or communicated to the public. That's simply a reflection of the power of the media, and particularly News International. As Cameron has said (http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/blog/2011/jul/08/news-of-the-world-phone-hacking-scandal) "Party leaders were so keen to win the support of papers we turned a blind eye to the need to sort this." However, it is disingenious of Cameron to claim that "it is on my watch that the music has stopped". He may be the current PM, but he has done no more, or less, than previous governments to "sort this".

Dave B

8th July 2011, 11:49

The music stopped on Cameron's watch only because of the revolting facts which came to light, and the manner in which the BSkyB deal was being waved through.

Besides, Brooks and James Murdoch remain in their posts, and there is certain to be a replacement rag within weeks. Nothing has stopped just yet.

Malbec

8th July 2011, 12:10

However, it is disingenious of Cameron to claim that "it is on my watch that the music has stopped". He may be the current PM, but he has done no more, or less, than previous governments to "sort this".

He may have meant that the situation with press intrusion into private lives became untenable while he is PM, in which case he'd be correct. Cameron will have to react to this matter and IMO as I keep mentioning he should make the PCC independent and give it real teeth. That really would be a breath of fresh air and is much needed as the current crisis shows.

It will be very interesting to see if any other newspapers get into trouble over hacking as I really find it difficult to believe that this practice of hiring PI's to hack phones wasn't widely used throughout the industry. Its not as if the Sun/NOTW were ahead of the competition in getting scoops, the other papers must have employed similar techniques themselves.

Dave B

8th July 2011, 12:13

The Sun, Mirror and Mail were very slow to run this story while the Guardian (who started it), Telegraph, Independent and even the Express and Star had no such problems.

Read into that what you will.

Malbec

8th July 2011, 12:13

Tbh if a journalist feels so strongly that there is something to be gained by hacking a mailbox then should they not contact the police and get them to get a seach warrant?

Because a free press should not have to depend on a branch of government to gain information if it is acting responsibly and in the public interest. Also a search warrant would inform the party being investigated that they were being watched, something that would kill most investigations cold.

GridGirl

8th July 2011, 12:24

Slightly off topic but hadn't the NOTW become a subscription only newspaper online? What happens to all the pre-paid subscriptions? It could also pave the way for The Sun and potentially The Sun on Sunday to become online subscription papers only too. Is that a good or a bad thing? I dont know.

Mark

8th July 2011, 12:30

Since it isn't going out of business as such, I would expect subscribers to get their money back pro-rata.

Daniel

8th July 2011, 12:35

Because a free press should not have to depend on a branch of government to gain information if it is acting responsibly and in the public interest. Also a search warrant would inform the party being investigated that they were being watched, something that would kill most investigations cold.

Good point, if it's true that people need to be notified if a warrant is obtained for phone messages then perhaps they need to look at the law being changed. Thing is if a paper comes up with proof that something is going on and then it's not investigated then as journalists they have the power to expose the fact that things aren't being looked into.

Personally although the Police have shown themselves to be somewhat corrupt, I'd much rather the police do the investigating when it comes to phone hacking, than journalists who may not have the public interest at heart.....

ArrowsFA1

8th July 2011, 12:39

He may have meant that the situation with press intrusion into private lives became untenable while he is PM, in which case he'd be correct
The link to the particular comment is here (http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/blog/2011/jul/08/news-of-the-world-phone-hacking-scandal#block-12). The fact that Cameron is currently PM is coincidental to events IMHO, not a contributory factor. Neither he, nor his government have acted any differently to previous governments where regulation of, or relationships with, the media are concerned.

That is why I said his claim that the music has stopped on his watch is disingenious; not because he's factually wrong, but because he appears to be suggesting that he deserves some credit for stopping the music. He doesn't.

Daniel

8th July 2011, 12:41

The link to the particular comment is here (http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/blog/2011/jul/08/news-of-the-world-phone-hacking-scandal#block-12). The fact that Cameron is currently PM is coincidental to events IMHO, not a contributory factor. Neither he, nor his government have acted any differently to previous governments where regulation of, or relationships with, the media are concerned.

That is why I said his claim that the music has stopped on his watch is disingenious; not because he's factually wrong, but because he appears to be suggesting that he deserves some credit for stopping the music. He doesn't.

:up:

The other point I want to make is that the newspapers history on jeopardising criminal investigations is somewhat errr not good so should we really be trusting them to be phone hacking even if it's supposedly in the public interest?

Malbec

8th July 2011, 12:57

Dave B

8th July 2011, 13:02

Balls, he's trying to take credit for the clean-up. Transparent and utterly pathetic. At least 24 hours behind the curve all through this.

Dave B

8th July 2011, 13:03

BTW former royal editor Clive Goodman re-arrested, joining Coulson.

Retro Formula 1

8th July 2011, 13:14

BTW, I will say this for the PM. He took responsibility for hiring Andy Coulson and acknowledged that all politicians are too cosy with the media. I applaud him for announcing 2 judicial reviews covering phone hacking and ethics in the media.

I'm not a big Cameron fan but I have much more respect for him on this than the slimey Milliband who is just trying to be negative and discredit the PM when him and his party are at least as bad. Lets have a look at your relationship with the Unions sunshine if we want contradiction from a bought politician.

ArrowsFA1

8th July 2011, 13:37

There was a good debate on phone hacking in the House of Commons on Wednesday. It's worth watching, or reading Hansard:
Emergency debate on phone hacking - UK Parliament (http://www.parliament.uk/business/news/2011/july/emergency-debate-on-phone-hacking/)

Dave B

8th July 2011, 13:39

BBC News - Ofcom to rule on News Corp ownership of BSkyB (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-14082668)

Peston on the ball again: ofcom minded to apply "fit and proper" test to Murdochs.

Dave B

8th July 2011, 13:42

BTW, I will say this for the PM. He took responsibility for hiring Andy Coulson and acknowledged that all politicians are too cosy with the media. I applaud him for announcing 2 judicial reviews covering phone hacking and ethics in the media.

....
He had no choice but to take responsibility, but claims no recollection of any warning about Coulson. Well here's one from 2009:

http://m.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2 ... pe=article (http://m.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jul/09/cameron-coulson-phone-hacking?cat=commentisfree&type=article)

Daniel

8th July 2011, 13:44

Dave B

8th July 2011, 13:50

Oooh, I know this one!

Daniel

8th July 2011, 14:00

That terrible Milliband chap is on the beeb now accusing our glorious supreme leader of being well aware of Coulson's dealings and in particular, hiring a convicted criminal who was known to have made payments to Police officers. Terrible form Ed old chap! According to Kno errr I mean Retro dude, you should just shup up about it because you're not perfect. Leave Dave alone old chap eh?

markabilly

8th July 2011, 14:04

Daniel

8th July 2011, 14:06

huh
?

could u translate into Anglish

Yagshemash!

Basically our PM hired a guy called Andy Coulson to be his communications director even though he was aware of Andy's past and in particular the fact that whilst at the News of the World he hired a convicted criminal who had made payments to the Police. Our Prime Minister is pretending that he had no knowledge of any dodginess and claims to be the innocent victim in all of this :rolleyes:

Retro Formula 1

8th July 2011, 14:07

huh
?

could u translate into Anglish

Sorry mate, that's about as intelligent and sensible as he gets ;)

Daniel

8th July 2011, 14:08

Sorry mate, that's about as intelligent and sensible as he gets ;)

Perhaps I should sign up under another alias like you oh exalted one ;)

markabilly

8th July 2011, 14:09

Yagshemash!

Basically our PM hired a guy called Andy Coulson to be his communications director even though he was aware of Andy's past and in particular the fact that whilst at the News of the World he hired a convicted criminal who had made payments to the Police. Our Prime Minister is pretending that he had no knowledge of any dodginess and claims to be the innocent victim in all of this :rolleyes:

Sounds like something that happens all the time, yet you doubt this here story, but beleive it weren't no murder?

Daniel

8th July 2011, 14:13

Sounds like something that happens all the time, yet you doubt this here story, but beleive it weren't no murder?

It weren't no murder in the who now wotsit, but it's still pretty serious and we should always try and hold to high standards all politicians and the people they choose to surround themselves with.

markabilly

8th July 2011, 14:14

murder in casey case

Daniel

8th July 2011, 14:15

murder in casey case

I don't quite see what this has to do with that?

Dave B

8th July 2011, 14:16

Retro Formula 1

8th July 2011, 14:18

Bollocks he took responsibility!!!! His words on the subject

You forgot the rest but your attention span had probably elapsed once you got a cheap sound-bite.

Asked if he had "screwed up" on the decision to employ Mr Coulson, Mr Cameron said: "People will decide."
He said: "I decided to give him a second chance but the second chance didn't work. The decision to hire him was mine and mine alone."

BBC News - Phone hacking probe: Ex-News of the World editor Coulson arrested (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14077405)

Dave B

8th July 2011, 14:19

I don't quite see what this has to do with that?
Nobody was agreeing with him on that thread so he thought he'd try his luck in this one. Very strange.

Daniel

8th July 2011, 14:21

You forgot the rest but your attention span had probably elapsed once you got a cheap sound-bite.

BBC News - Phone hacking probe: Ex-News of the World editor Coulson arrested (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14077405)

And if your comprehension skills were a little bit better, you'd see that he says that he made the decision to hire Coulson, but fell short of admitting that it was a mistake.

Daniel

8th July 2011, 14:25

New Statesman - Cameron's judgement remains the issue (http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/the-staggers/2011/07/intrinsic-virtue-cameron)

Good piece about Iggle Piggle's poor judgement and misguided loyalty to Coulson.

I'd have respected him if he had come out and say how much of a **** coulson was and that he (Cameron) is disappointed in himself for such an unforgiveable lapse of judgement when all the warning signs were there for someone who wanted to see them.

Dave B

8th July 2011, 14:29

Phone hacking: Police probe suspected deletion of emails by NI executive | Media | The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2011/jul/08/phone-hacking-emails-news-international?mobile-redirect=false)

Oooh who saw that coming? Apart from everyone...

Daniel

8th July 2011, 14:31

Retro Formula 1

8th July 2011, 14:38

Retro Formula 1

8th July 2011, 14:54

Dave B

8th July 2011, 14:59

Daily Star offices raided by police according to reports. Plot thickens.

Dave B

8th July 2011, 15:17

Seems police are interested in (ex NotW royal ed) Clive Goodman's desk rather than the Star in general, but that's not stopping Sky News leading with the raid.

Daniel

8th July 2011, 15:32

Seems police are interested in (ex NotW royal ed) Clive Goodman's desk rather than the Star in general, but that's not stopping Sky News leading with the raid.

Here's a little piece which was done a while back by a person who used to post on this forum. As relevant now as it was when it was originally done :)

News of the World Scandal : Shant Fabricatorian : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive (http://www.archive.org/details/ShantFabricatorianNewsoftheWorldScandal)

Dave B

9th July 2011, 12:02

Here's a link to a very interesting report which explains why the Mail and Mirror are bricking it:

Remember, Daily Mail uses 5x as much illegally-gathered info as #NOTW: http://bit.ly/r0GgkI (see p9) Paul Dacre should be worried #hacking:

Daniel

9th July 2011, 12:33

I think if the Daily Hate gets fingered then Rupert is in real trouble then....

Daniel

9th July 2011, 13:23

More on the Church of England's condemnation of the phone hacking scandal and its threat to disinvest in News Corp due to the company's failure to uphold ethical and governance standards.
Professor Richard Burridge, deputy chairman of the church's Ethical Investment Advisory Group, said the threat of disinvestment could have an impact in spite of the relatively small amount of shares - £3.7m - it holds in News Corp.

If we don't get a satisfactory answer then disinvestment comes on to the horizon, but you can't go straight to the nuclear option, you have to engage first.
I would love to think that Rupert Murdoch lies in bed at night quaking in fear of the Church of England but I fear that may not be the case.
Certainly disinvestment is our ultimate sanction if engagement does not work. We have written a letter and we have not had a reply yet.

News of the World phone-hacking scandal - latest updates | Media | guardian.co.uk (http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/blog/2011/jul/09/phone-hacking-newsoftheworld)

Talking to someone on MSN about it at the moment and he had this to say

some bright spark journo should ask them how they square Jesus' teachings about morality with printing three million copies of women's tits every day?they're a bit slow on the uptake if it's taken them until now to realise Rupe is a bit deficient in the morals department??

Rollo

9th July 2011, 13:26

The real question is has the Daily Mail decided if phone hacking causes cancer or not...

Malbec

9th July 2011, 15:03

Here's a link to a very interesting report which explains why the Mail and Mirror are bricking it:

Depends on how things go. The mail on Sunday is probably going to benefit most from the notw disappearing because its now got the biggest circulation and all the advertising that went to the notw has to go somewhere.

The police may not be too keen to expand investigations. Its almost guaranteed that more police officers will be found out and I can't see them having an appetite for uncovering them if they can afford it.

That said, if the Mail falls that day should be made into a national holiday.

Bob Riebe

9th July 2011, 16:18

Don't be so damn lazy and use a land-line telephone.

Daniel

9th July 2011, 19:08

I asked about ethics and Rupert called me a wanker (http://bit.ly/nqtj2I) :laugh:

Dave B

9th July 2011, 19:52

Could just be an opportunist?

Domain names now owned by NI. They are definitely shady

http://m.paidcontent.co.uk/article/419- ... -squatter/ (http://m.paidcontent.co.uk/article/419-another-view-of-thesunonsunday.co.uk-its-just-a-garden-variety-squatter/)

Dave B

9th July 2011, 20:03

He had no choice but to take responsibility, but claims no recollection of any warning about Coulson. Well here's one from 2009:

http://m.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2 ... pe=article (http://m.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jul/09/cameron-coulson-phone-hacking?cat=commentisfree&type=article)

And another: Lord (Paddy) Ashdown warned No.10 that employing Coulson would be a disaster.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2011/ju ... rect=false (http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2011/jul/09/phone-hacking-andy-coulson-paddy-ashdown?mobile-redirect=false)

Dave B

9th July 2011, 21:29

Last ever NotW front page:

HipstaPrint » Last ever NOTW front page by Gordon Thomson (http://hpstm.tc/p/qn8f)

Dave B

10th July 2011, 18:54

I signed up for the 4 week free trial on their website. Oh....

Seriously, I know someone who bought s copy but I refused to read it.

Dave B

10th July 2011, 19:07

Talking of the final issue, Charlie Brooker has just published this very fair and balanced opinion piece:

Charlie Brooker | The last News of the World was downright odd | Comment is free | The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/jul/10/charlie-brooker-news-of-the-world?mobile-redirect=false)

Rollo

10th July 2011, 23:40

Seems that the people of Liverpool have treated the NoTW with the same contempt as they treat The Sun. The final day of sale has resulted in loads on unsold copies because of a boycott.

Says it all really - NOTW is the only paper left on the stand... on Twitpic (http://twitpic.com/5o4dyd)

Daniel

11th July 2011, 14:43

Jeez, the Lib Dems have been pretty quiet on this so far. So what does Nick Clegg say? "Mr Murdoch, do the decent thing and reconsider your bid for BSkyB". :laugh:

In other news Jeremy Hunt is writing to OFCOM to see what they think of Murdoch's bid for BSkyB. Whatever happened to independent though and using your moral compass? Oh that's right! He's a Conservative minister and the Conservatives do what their influential friends tell them to do...... BBC News - BSkyB takeover: Jeremy Hunt seeking new advice (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14101866) Why not organise a meeting or pick up the phone? Gotta love how he doesn't want to make a judgement about whether what's come to light over the last week when it's bloody clear that what's happened clearly shows that the Murdoch's are not fit to take over BSkyB.

Malbec

11th July 2011, 16:49

In other news Jeremy Hunt is writing to OFCOM to see what they think of Murdoch's bid for BSkyB. Whatever happened to independent though and using your moral compass? Oh that's right! He's a Conservative minister and the Conservatives do what their influential friends tell them to do...... BBC News - BSkyB takeover: Jeremy Hunt seeking new advice (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14101866) Why not organise a meeting or pick up the phone? Gotta love how he doesn't want to make a judgement about whether what's come to light over the last week when it's bloody clear that what's happened clearly shows that the Murdoch's are not fit to take over BSkyB.

There is no current evidence to say that anyone knew about the hackings other than the journalists involved.

Of course it LOOKS like everyone up to Brooks and Coulson probably knew but there is no hard evidence of that right now.

And this is where the problem lies. Both the public and the MPs are behaving as if NI itself was involved directly in the hackings whereas there is no evidence as yet to indicate that (although I'm sure it'll be a matter of time). The government has to act not on hearsay but on actual evidence it has in its hands.

The government intervening in a business deal thats already been given the go-ahead despite the lack of hard evidence that the organisation (as opposed to a couple of journos) itself knowingly involved itself in illegal techniques would be setting a rather nasty precedent.

Daniel

11th July 2011, 16:51

There is no current evidence to say that anyone knew about the hackings other than the journalists involved.

Of course it LOOKS like everyone up to Brooks and Coulson probably knew but there is no hard evidence of that right now.

The government intervening in a business deal thats already been given the go-ahead despite the lack of hard evidence that the organisation (as opposed to a couple of journos) itself knowingly involved itself in illegal techniques would be setting a rather nasty precedent.

But would it not be prudent to acknowledge the fact that whilst everyone is innocent until proven guilty, that it's sensible to put the BSkyB deal on hold? I don't think you really need to ask advice to know that putting it on hold is a very good idea.

Dave B

11th July 2011, 17:09

Dave B

11th July 2011, 17:11

BTW the gov legally have to intervene as NI have withdrawn assurances about Sky News' independence thus requiring competition commission approval.

Dave B

11th July 2011, 17:24

Forgot link: m.guardian.co.uk (http://m.guardian.co.uk/ms/p/gnm/op/sHK-CWZfRmENyZNPFA63NOw/view.m?id=15&gid=media/2011/jul/11/phone-hacking-news-international-gordon-brown&cat=top-stories)

Quote:
Confidential health records for Brown's family have reached the media on two different occasions. In October 2006, the then editor of the Sun, Rebekah Brooks, contacted the Browns to tell them that they had obtained details from the medical file of their four-month-old son, Fraser, which revealed that the boy was suffering from cystic fibrosis. This appears to have been a clear breach of the Data Protection Act, which would allow such a disclosure only if it was in the public interest. Friends of the Browns say the call caused them immense distress, since they were only coming to terms with the diagnosis, which had not been confirmed. The Sun published the story.

Retro Formula 1

11th July 2011, 17:25

Whereas I would like to see the allegations fully investigated first and then appropriate charges and punishment handed out to the guilty, I feel that the proposed B sky B deal should be delayed.

These charges are serious and while NI may not be involved at all, they appear to have been pretty incompetent in managing one of it's prominent sub-companies. That alone gives me cause for concern because if they cannot properly control NOTW, what assurance is there that BSB will be any different.

Malbec

11th July 2011, 18:01

Dylan, don't be so naive. If course Brooks and Coulson knew. In fact Brooks herself rang Gordon and Sarah Brown to inform them that the Sun had obtained their baby's medical records and that they were going to run a story on the Cystic Firbrosis. She knew that the records could only have been obtained illegally.

There's a LOT more to come on this story I assure you.

I'm not being naive at all. I completely agree with you that it looks like Brooks and Coulson were actively involved, or were monumentally stupid or incompetent by not questioning how some stories came into their hands (which we know they are not).

The cystic fibrosis story (extremely distasteful as it is) could have been obtained by entirely legal means too, ie by talking to someone involved in the medical care of the child. The fact that it was published raises further questions but not about the phone hacking itself.

As Daniel says in another thread, WHERE IS THE EVIDENCE?

Malbec

11th July 2011, 18:02

But would it not be prudent to acknowledge the fact that whilst everyone is innocent until proven guilty, that it's sensible to put the BSkyB deal on hold? I don't think you really need to ask advice to know that putting it on hold is a very good idea.

I think its pretty clear that the BSkyB deal IS on hold for the moment!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2011/jul/11/news-corp-bskyb-bid-hunt-competition-commission

NI has withdrawn its offer to sell off Sky News, instantly triggering a reference to the competition commission which will take several months to finish.

Daniel

11th July 2011, 18:06

But then why are the govt asking for advice as to whether it should be put on hold?

Dave B

11th July 2011, 18:08

I'm not being naive at all. I completely agree with you that it looks like Brooks and Coulson were actively involved, or were monumentally stupid or incompetent by not questioning how some stories came into their hands (which we know they are not).

The cystic fibrosis story (extremely distasteful as it is) could have been obtained by entirely legal means too, ie by talking to someone involved in the medical care of the child. The fact that it was published raises further questions but not about the phone hacking itself.

As Daniel says in another thread, WHERE IS THE EVIDENCE?
Even if you accept the far-fetched notion that the records were obtained legally, publishing then on the front page of the Sun is a clear and very obvious breach of the Data Protection Act. Brooks, as editor, would have known that.

Dave B

11th July 2011, 18:09

But then why are the govt asking for advice as to whether it should be put on hold?

Old news. NI shifted the goalposts forcing govt's hand. Hunt off the hook for now.

Dave B

11th July 2011, 18:12

Coogan was class. One step away from "you feed beefburgers to swans". McMullen is a clown, and has been on many interviews this past week.

George Michael's Twitter feed is VERY interesting, BTW...

Malbec

11th July 2011, 18:14

Even if you accept the far-fetched notion that the records were obtained legally, publishing then on the front page of the Sun is a clear and very obvious breach of the Data Protection Act. Brooks, as editor, would have known that.

Dave I think you're missing my point. Show me the hard evidence right now that Brooks and Coulson or anyone else senior at the NOTW or NI knew about the hacking. There isn't, yet you think the government should be acting as if there is?

Whether the circumstantial evidence points to them knowing is irrelevant. The government can't act on circumstantial evidence. The last time it did publicly it ended up with egg on its face (Iraq and WMD). Do you really want your government acting without evidence? I don't. I want a formal enquiry into all the events before any BSkyB deal is finalised. Nothing before.

Daniel

11th July 2011, 18:16

Dave I think you're missing my point. Show me the hard evidence right now that Brooks and Coulson or anyone else senior at the NOTW or NI knew about the hacking. There isn't, yet you think the government should be acting as if there is?

Whether the circumstantial evidence points to them knowing is irrelevant. The government can't act on circumstantial evidence. The last time it did publicly it ended up with egg on its face (Iraq and WMD). Do you really want your government acting without evidence? I don't. I want a formal enquiry into all the events before any BSkyB deal is finalised. Nothing before.

Every ship has to have a captain and the captain should accept responsibility for what happened on their watch whether or not they were directly involved. One would suspect that with the amount of money that's meant to have changed hands with regards to hacking and paying the Police off that they were probably aware....

Mark

11th July 2011, 18:21

Apparently the NoW is the reason we aren't ruled by 'a Hitler'.

Malbec

11th July 2011, 18:24

Every ship has to have a captain and the captain should accept responsibility for what happened on their watch whether or not they were directly involved. One would suspect that with the amount of money that's meant to have changed hands with regards to hacking and paying the Police off that they were probably aware....

Your post is directly contradictory with your own posts on the thread regarding the American woman who was recently acquitted for murder.

You can't act on 'probably' whether its a criminal case or a judgement as to whether a company should be allowed by the government to acquire majority stake in another. You have to act on hard evidence. I'll refer you to your own posts in that thread as to why.

Murdoch has already been given permission to purchase BSkyB. The only way this hacking case can reasonably be used to obstruct that is if it is found that hacking was knowingly used and encouraged by the seniors at NI/NOTW which would indicate a culture of poor ethics at that company. As it is, all we can prove is that a journalist and a PI used illegal means to obtain info and there is no concrete evidence to say that NOTW is wrong in saying that it had no idea that this took place. Right now all we can prove is that there were two renegade NOTW employees, and you cannot punish an entire company for the behaviour of two people who on the face of it acted against company policy (and I guarantee that somewhere there will be NOTW guidelines prohibiting illegal means of obtaining information).

I agree with you (and I do not know how many times I have to repeat this) that I think this is total nonsense, that Brooks and Coulson knew and didn't care. I also happen to think that the majority of newspapers probably acted in a similar way. But that is irrelevant because none of that can be proved.... YET.

Daniel

11th July 2011, 23:19

Your post is directly contradictory with your own posts on the thread regarding the American woman who was recently acquitted for murder.

You can't act on 'probably' whether its a criminal case or a judgement as to whether a company should be allowed by the government to acquire majority stake in another. You have to act on hard evidence. I'll refer you to your own posts in that thread as to why.

Murdoch has already been given permission to purchase BSkyB. The only way this hacking case can reasonably be used to obstruct that is if it is found that hacking was knowingly used and encouraged by the seniors at NI/NOTW which would indicate a culture of poor ethics at that company. As it is, all we can prove is that a journalist and a PI used illegal means to obtain info and there is no concrete evidence to say that NOTW is wrong in saying that it had no idea that this took place. Right now all we can prove is that there were two renegade NOTW employees, and you cannot punish an entire company for the behaviour of two people who on the face of it acted against company policy (and I guarantee that somewhere there will be NOTW guidelines prohibiting illegal means of obtaining information).

I agree with you (and I do not know how many times I have to repeat this) that I think this is total nonsense, that Brooks and Coulson knew and didn't care. I also happen to think that the majority of newspapers probably acted in a similar way. But that is irrelevant because none of that can be proved.... YET.

Personally I feel the matter of a murder (and the death sentence that tends to come with it in the US) and something like this are rather different matters. Whilst I'm not suggesting that we go putting people in jail based on heresay or assumptions, the BSkyB deal needs to be put on hold till the extent of the rot can be seen and we can say with great certainty whether it should actually go agead. Like the MP's expenses scandal before it, I think this is probably just the tip of the iceberg. At least if it's put on hold now, when the decision is made in the future to sell or not to sell the rest of BSkyB to Murdoch then we can at least say that it was done in a transparent and honest fashion.

Whilst you seem to be willing to believe that the upper management didn't know how the information was being obtained I think you're being a bit naive. As Dave says, when Rebekah Brooks called Gordon and Sarah Brown to tell them about the story they were going to run, how do you think she thought the information had been obtained? I like to think that I'll generally give people the benefit of the doubt, but I think it's highly unlikely that people didn't know where this information came from. Moreover, IF she didn't know where the information came from, then she bloody well should have asked or at the very least been curious about it. One would imagine that the money for this phone hacking and the payments to the police didn't come out of the tea money? If it comes to light that they weren't aware then Rupert could do far worse than fire the lot of them for being incompetent.

Captain VXR

11th July 2011, 23:47

Hopefully the Mail and Express will get caught phone hacking and also get shut down.
Guess BNPEDLNF retards will have to then go back to reading Mein Kampf.

Rollo

11th July 2011, 23:49

Dave I think you're missing my point. Show me the hard evidence right now that Brooks and Coulson or anyone else senior at the NOTW or NI knew about the hacking. There isn't, yet you think the government should be acting as if there is?

Maybe there isn't hard evidence "right now" but it very much warrants investigation doesn't it? Also in the light that Brooks admitted to paying police for information, it does look very much like her modus operandii.

YouTube - ‪Rebekah Brooks admits to paying police‬&rlm; (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1AJjnl2y8U)

I would like to point out that this:

Show me the hard evidence right now that Brooks and Coulson or anyone else senior at the NOTW or NI knew about the hacking.
... is an informal fallacy; namely an "argumentum ad ignorantiam" argument. That is arguing that a that a claim is false because it can not be proved to be true.
If you are going to persist in using an informal fallacy, please at least admit it.

Rollo

11th July 2011, 23:53

the BSkyB deal needs to be put on hold till the extent of the rot can be seen and we can say with great certainty whether it should actually go ahead.

I think that this was the point of Jeremy Hunt referring the deal to the Competition Commission; it's basically a delaying tactic which at the moment is an in principle good idea as it buys investigators more time. Milliband mocking this on the floor of the House of Commons should have realised this and just looked a right pratt.

Daniel

12th July 2011, 00:37

I think that this was the point of Jeremy Hunt referring the deal to the Competition Commission; it's basically a delaying tactic which at the moment is an in principle good idea as it buys investigators more time. Milliband mocking this on the floor of the House of Commons should have realised this and just looked a right pratt.

I'm sorry, but do you really need to refer it to someone else to realise that it's a bad idea for it to go forward now?

Rollo

12th July 2011, 00:51

I'm sorry, but do you really need to refer it to someone else to realise that it's a bad idea for it to go forward now?

Of course not. It does however slow the whole process up at the moment, which is probably the best course of action.

The real thing is what Ofcom is to do and what constitutes a "fit and proper person". I'm not sure if that has been tested at law and by referring it to the Competition Commission, it does give Ofcom a sturdier framework to eventually test this.

Eki

12th July 2011, 10:41

I hear some newspaper stole Gordon Brown's son's medical records. That's sick.

Malbec

12th July 2011, 11:00

Whilst you seem to be willing to believe that the upper management didn't know how the information was being obtained I think you're being a bit naive.

FFS Daniel, how many times do I have to tell you that I DO believe that Brooks et al knew exactly what was going on?

My point has never been that, its that at the current point in time it can't be proved that they did know.

I have repeated the same point over and over again, have the courtesy to read my posts.

To reiterate, I'm sure the police will find some kind of papertrail leading up to the top but right now they don't. I hope this is clear.

Dave B

12th July 2011, 11:13

I hear some newspaper stole Gordon Brown's son's medical records. That's sick.

The Sun claim they are comfortable the info was obtained by legitimate means. I'd be interested to know what "legitimate means" there are of getting a baby's medical records, let alone publishing them.

Daniel

12th July 2011, 11:16

FFS Daniel, how many times do I have to tell you that I DO believe that Brooks et al knew exactly what was going on?

My point has never been that, its that at the current point in time it can't be proved that they did know.

I have repeated the same point over and over again, have the courtesy to read my posts.

To reiterate, I'm sure the police will find some kind of papertrail leading up to the top but right now they don't. I hope this is clear.

Sorry I do apologise.

Malbec

12th July 2011, 12:26

The Sun claim they are comfortable the info was obtained by legitimate means. I'd be interested to know what "legitimate means" there are of getting a baby's medical records, let alone publishing them.

Legitimate means from the newspaper's point of view would include getting someone inside the hospital to access the medical records and tell them.

Its unprofessional for the medical worker but legitimate for the newspaper.

Malbec

12th July 2011, 12:28

... is an informal fallacy; namely an "argumentum ad ignorantiam" argument. That is arguing that a that a claim is false because it can not be proved to be true.
If you are going to persist in using an informal fallacy, please at least admit it.

Sadly like Daniel it would appear you didn't read my posts in their entirety. Please at least admit that ;)

Mark

12th July 2011, 13:32

Its unprofessional for the medical worker but legitimate for the newspaper.

No, it's not. While the reporter couldn't be prosecuted for having the information, if they then pass it on, whilst knowing it's confidential then that is an offence.

Malbec

12th July 2011, 14:20

No, it's not. While the reporter couldn't be prosecuted for having the information, if they then pass it on, whilst knowing it's confidential then that is an offence.

Are you sure? A lot of news is confidential by nature but the journalists are allowed to use it if the news item is considered in the public interest.

Where the Sun is weak regarding Gordon Brown's son is exactly on this point, is his son's health in the public interest?

Dave B

12th July 2011, 14:22

"in the public interest" or "the public would be interested" ?

Daniel

12th July 2011, 20:56

News Corp blow as Conservatives set to back BSkyB motion - UK Politics, UK - The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/news-corp-blow-as-conservatives-set-to-back-bskyb-motion-2312482.html) looks like they sunk Rupert's battleship :)

Dave B

13th July 2011, 11:45

"Cameron will not attend Commons debate on News Corp's BSkyB takeover bid but intends to vote if diary allows - Downing St. #c4news"

If diary allows? What a bloody coward. Where's your leadership, man?

Daniel

13th July 2011, 11:47

Dave B

13th July 2011, 15:08

Bid withdrawn. It's all over.... for know.

Daniel

13th July 2011, 15:15

Well that's a ****ing surprise!!!!! All over for now as Dave says. Dave B, not Dave C :p He'd never say anything like that

Dave B

13th July 2011, 15:20

Sell off NI (low and declining profit), wait 6 months, renew bid process. Murdoch could well still get BSkyB

Daniel

13th July 2011, 15:26

Sell off NI (low and declining profit), wait 6 months, renew bid process. Murdoch could well still get BSkyB

People would be VERY pissed off though. I really can't see this happening for a few years. This has been in the news too much and the parties are agreeing with each other for once. I really don't see this happening again for a significant length of time. Then there's also the issue of whether the Murdoch's would be fit owners which OFCOM are still looking at.

Daniel

13th July 2011, 16:27

Malbec

13th July 2011, 17:01

Sell off NI (low and declining profit), wait 6 months, renew bid process. Murdoch could well still get BSkyB

Won't work.

This whole thing still hasn't really kicked off yet. IMO the real revelations haven't come out yet, ie institutional refusal to cooperate with police, deletion of evidence ie emails and perverting the cause of justice, bribery etc etc. Also the police haven't figured out how far up this goes.

This will all require a massive enquiry which will take months.

Then there will be pressure to look into the behaviour of other newspapers like the Daily Mail.

I think press invasion of privacy will be in the news for absolutely ages, and Murdoch will face massive opposition for any attempt to get BSkyB for a long time to come.

He'll go away and lick his wounds, maybe focus back on China and India in the meantime.

janvanvurpa

14th July 2011, 05:20

Now the bit that I hate about these sort of things. Apparently Milly Dowler is a heroine for all of this, because she's helped to change the face of the British media. I'm sorry but this simply isn't true.

Why must people make heroism something that's so easily attached to something which the person didn't even intend to do?

Am I the only one who finds it distasteful when people label others as heroes for doing nothing other than in this instance dying and having her phone hacked?

Yeah just in my short lifetime the meaning of the word "Heo" went from some crazy bastid charge a German machine-gun nest alone and knocking it out, or jumping on a grenade and saving 9 guys in the same hole or enteringa burning building to rescue the kittens ( i did that once--and there was a dachshund too) morphed in barely 40 years to
"230 Marines asleep in their barracks in Beruit were smooshed to hell when an Arabiac terr'st blew up his truck bomb--They're true American Heroes ".

Victim is now a synonym for hero.

Thank the vast Left-wing conspricy that controls the press for that, eh?

Rollo

14th July 2011, 07:09

Why must people make heroism something that's so easily attached to something which the person didn't even intend to do?

Am I the only one who finds it distasteful when people label others as heroes for doing nothing other than in this instance dying and having her phone hacked?

"'Yeah, that Timmy is a real hero."
"'How do you mean, Dad?"
"Well, he fell down a well and...he can't get out!"
"How does that make him a hero?"
"Well it's more than you ever did!"
- The Simpsons, Radio Bart, 1992.

I agree with your sentiments entirely. Heroism requires choice. Milly Dowler is being held up as a hero because this sells advert space. This isn't just a News Corp. thing either, they're all guilty of doing it... except the Daily Mail because heroism causes cancer.

Daniel

14th July 2011, 07:15

"'Yeah, that Timmy is a real hero."
"'How do you mean, Dad?"
"Well, he fell down a well and...he can't get out!"
"How does that make him a hero?"
"Well it's more than you ever did!"
- The Simpsons, Radio Bart, 1992.

I agree with your sentiments entirely. Heroism requires choice. Milly Dowler is being held up as a hero because this sells advert space. This isn't just a News Corp. thing either, they're all guilty of doing it... except the Daily Mail because heroism causes cancer.

Good use of Simpsons :p :up:

It wasn't the media though, it was the lawyer for her family.

Retro Formula 1

14th July 2011, 13:01

MP's asked Rupert and James Murdoch to attend the house of commons on Tuesday and guess what? James said he might go another day and Rupert refused.

As US citizens, they are entitled to refuse but this refusal is just going to heap on the pressure. However, Rebekah (or whatever her bloody name is) has no such luxury and the MP's want a word with her and Coulson about their evidence back in 2003 :D

So, the Murdoch's think they can weasel out of it? Not quite. There is growing pressure in the US for a Federal inquiry which will go through News Corp like a hot knife through butter. At the moment, the higher ranks of News Corp are towing the party line and protecting their masters but for how long?

Pressure is mounting on both sides of the Atlantic and the knives are out. Prepare for the biggest shake-up in the history of Media.

Dave B

14th July 2011, 19:20

I'm hearing 7th August for the launch of Sun on Sunday. Will people be gullible enough to buy it?

Mark

14th July 2011, 20:24

Vince Cable has said that it's like after a dictator has been overthrown when everyone declares they didn't actually like them really.

Retro Formula 1

15th July 2011, 01:10

I'm hearing 7th August for the launch of Sun on Sunday. Will people be gullible enough to buy it?

Yes. The great unwashed just like tits and gossip I'm afraid. It will be the best selling Sunday paper by August.

Daniel

15th July 2011, 10:38

Brooks is gone now.....

Retro Formula 1

15th July 2011, 11:18

I heard that a summons had been issued for Rupert and James to attend the commons next Tuesday with Brooks. Can they legally do this as I am not aware of any legal jurisdiction that can demand a foreign national to attend a non-legal hearing?

N. Jones

16th July 2011, 04:54

Jag_Warrior

16th July 2011, 07:08

Malbec

16th July 2011, 10:59

Being an American, realize that I don't have a good feel for how bad things would have to get to bring down Cameron. But with this, is Cameron's government in any real trouble? Over here I've seen, in more than one article, Cameron being described as "Murdoch's waterboy". Can't be good, or can he wait out the storm?

Revealed: Cameron's 26 meetings in 15 months with Murdoch chiefs (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/revealed-camerons-26-meetings-in-15-months-with-murdoch-chiefs-2314550.html)

P.S. WooHoo: 11 years and 7,000 posts. I think I'll have another beer. :dork:

The sad fact is that anyone wishing to win an election in Britain for the last two, maybe three decades has done so with Murdoch's help. His papers supported Thatcher and when Major looked weak he switched to Blair. Alistair Campbell, Blair's aide wrote in his diaries that getting Murdoch's support was one of the most important steps in winning the 1997 election.

Blair repaid that support by using NI papers to leak policy to throughout his time and the two cooperated closely to help change British public opposition to war with Iraq.

Murdoch didn't like Gordon Brown so Cameron courted Murdoch and got his support. While the two are close the same has been true of most British prime ministers.

What I'm curious about is if his papers tried to hack 9/11 phones, what will the effect on his empire in the US be?

Mark

16th July 2011, 11:36

To answer the question, no, Cameron is not in trouble over this. His reaction to the story has been such that the damage has been mostly deflected.

Daniel

16th July 2011, 12:00

To answer the question, no, Cameron is not in trouble over this. His reaction to the story has been such that the damage has been mostly deflected.

Whilst I wouldn't say he's in trouble, I think he was slow to act and the fact that he hired Coulson shows a great lapse in judgement.

Robinho

16th July 2011, 18:08

I'm hearing 7th August for the launch of Sun on Sunday. Will people be gullible enough to buy it?

of course they will, about 3-4 million of them, the same as the braindead mugs who bought the News of the World and do buy the Sun already, who probably already miss their Weekend date with hate. NOTW and NI might be gutter dragging scumbags, but they are pandering to the lowest common denominator and right now in the UK there are more than enough of them to make a tidy sum from peddling BS week in week out

Mark

17th July 2011, 13:07

Yep I'll bet SoS will match NoW sales within a few weeks.

slinkster

17th July 2011, 14:37

Brookes has been arrested this morning according to the BBC.

BBC News - Rebekah Brooks arrested by hacking police (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14178051)

Not sure if anything will come of it though... she's rich enough to afford a damn good lawer if any charges are made.

Daniel

17th July 2011, 18:42

Rupert Murdoch walks into a bar.
The barman says, “Don’t worry about it mate, we haven’t got Sky either.”
:D

Dave B

17th July 2011, 19:56

Met Police Commissioner Sir Paul Stephenson has resigned, although claims no wrongdoing. This story keeps getting bigger.

James Murdoch next?

Mark

18th July 2011, 18:05

One thing for sure, this goes a lot deeper yet.

Mark

18th July 2011, 18:26

One thing for sure, this goes a lot deeper yet.

Daniel

18th July 2011, 18:27

One thing for sure, this goes a lot deeper yet.

As relevant now as when you said it 21 minutes before :p

News of the World phone hacking whistleblower found dead | Media | The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2011/jul/18/news-of-the-world-sean-hoare)

Mark

19th July 2011, 09:29

That's iPhones for you.

Malbec

19th July 2011, 11:22

of course they will, about 3-4 million of them, the same as the braindead mugs who bought the News of the World and do buy the Sun already, who probably already miss their Weekend date with hate. NOTW and NI might be gutter dragging scumbags, but they are pandering to the lowest common denominator and right now in the UK there are more than enough of them to make a tidy sum from peddling BS week in week out

I read an interesting article about this last week. It won't be easy for the Sun on Sunday to make back its readership.

Firstly they can't release the new paper for some time soon in case they get a massive backlash. Even NOTW readers would be able to spot the cynicism of an early release.

Secondly the big remaining players will be pushing hard to catch NOTW readers with price cuts and promo deals. The Daily Mail is apparently even looking into launching a redtop version of the Mail on Sunday to go directly into NOTW territory. The Sun on Sunday may find many NOTW will be loyal to another paper by the time it launches.

Finally apparently over half NOTW sales are as second papers, light reading to go with a broadsheet Sunday paper and these are the sales that might just evaporate as people find they can do without a second paper very easily.

Dave B

19th July 2011, 13:18

Anyone else watching Sir Paul Stephenson giving evidence to the select committee? For a senior policeman he appears to have some worrying gaps in his knowledge - at surprisingly convenient moments, too. I'm disappointed I won't be near a TV when the Murdochs are grilled, but I suspect they'll be very guarded in their answers.

"You'd have to ask Mr Yates" is fast becoming his catchprase. :s

Dave B

19th July 2011, 14:03

Adam Boulton (Sky) tweeting that Rupert Murdoch may be about to resign :eek:

Daniel

19th July 2011, 14:09

Adam Boulton (Sky) tweeting that Rupert Murdoch may be about to resign :eek:

Hmmmmmm

Malbec

19th July 2011, 17:00

Adam Boulton (Sky) tweeting that Rupert Murdoch may be about to resign :eek:

Probably one of the few things that could do anything to boost News International share prices now....

Meanwhile someone has tried to punch Murdoch at the hearing.

Dave B

19th July 2011, 17:05

Not a punch, shaving foam custard pie allegedly UK Uncut protester.

Mark

19th July 2011, 17:37

lmao. Nice try!

Jag_Warrior

19th July 2011, 23:07

A couple of commentators (one right-wing fellow even) just stated that if it's found that News Corp violated the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act, and especially if News Corp tapped into ANY of the phones of 9/11 victims, stick a fork in ol' Ruppie... cause he will be done. But what REALLY surprises me about this in the U.S. is that Mr. 9/11 himself (Rudy Giuliani) has been mum on the issue. For the past 10 years, every third word out of Giuliani's mouth has been 9/11... 9/11... 9/11. But now that his Big Boss Man may be connected to taking advantage of 9/11 victims, Mr. 9/11 can't find his tongue all of a sudden. :rolleyes:

From my initial post, I was certainly wrong about how bad this has gotten for Murdoch. Who knew he was this careless and employed people who wouldn't survive 15 minutes in the mafia? If you're going to run a crooked organization, you MUST employ capable criminals, not rank amateurs!

wedge

20th July 2011, 13:44

What an anti-climax yesterday.

It was like watching an episode of The Simpsons: Rupert Murdoch in a Mr Burns not knowing what his employees are really up to and Wendi Deng playing Smithers.

Dave B

20th July 2011, 14:17

This is a valid point. If the Murdochs, Brooks, Coulson et al genuinely didn't know what was happenning under their leadership then we can accept they're not criminals. They are, however, incompetent.

Malbec

26th July 2011, 14:53

Just as I thought, looks like NI may not have been alone.

Daily Mirror publisher to review editorial controls | Media | guardian.co.uk (http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2011/jul/26/daily-mirror-publisher-to-review-editorial-controls)

ArrowsFA1

17th August 2011, 08:19

Gregor-y

17th August 2011, 16:26

I'm glad to see other troubles haven't been too much of a distraction from this investigation.

Malbec

17th August 2011, 16:57

Well, well, well, it would appear that the Editor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andy_Coulson) was well aware of phone hacking after all:
BBC News - Hacking 'discussed' at News of the World, Clive Goodman letter says (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14541848)

When any organisation uses a system like hacking as openly as this it does suggest that they felt it was a 'normal' thing to do, and as I've said before suggests that this was an industry-wide investigative technique.

I'm surprised there have been few calls for investigating Piers Morgan who openly admitted a few years back that the Mirror used phone hacking. I very much doubt NI was alone in this matter.... Question is whether there is the appetite to investigate the entire industry and not just those who were stupid enough to get caught.

BDunnell

17th August 2011, 22:33

When any organisation uses a system like hacking as openly as this it does suggest that they felt it was a 'normal' thing to do, and as I've said before suggests that this was an industry-wide investigative technique.

I'm surprised there have been few calls for investigating Piers Morgan who openly admitted a few years back that the Mirror used phone hacking. I very much doubt NI was alone in this matter.... Question is whether there is the appetite to investigate the entire industry and not just those who were stupid enough to get caught.

An entire industry that includes BT and the mobile phone operators. Have you read Flat Earth News by Nick Davies? If not, it does date from about 2006 but is still most instructive. Maybe if more MPs had read it, they would have become concerned about the issue rather sooner. The story of the BT employee who bugged Angus Deayton's landline phone is an interesting one.