what do you think of us?

[schumacher7championships]

being a proud greek citizen i have always been concerned about what simple people in other european countries think about our deep recession and generally about our way of life.

please tell me if you know something or someone related to sports in greece. :rolleyes:

[Mark]

I think that the people rioting in the streets in Greece, and other countries with more or less socialist economies, haven't grasped the concept that there is no such thing as a free lunch.
Sooner or later someone has to pay.

That's pretty much my view. They need to make cuts or effectively go bust. Protesting won't change the situation.

[janneppi]

Sooner or later someone has to pay.
I'd settle for the Greeks to start paying their taxes like any good socialist should and not be proud of screwing the goverment while taking money from it.

[schumacher7championships]

I think that the people rioting in the streets in Greece, and other countries with more or less socialist economies, haven't grasped the concept that there is no such thing as a free lunch.
Sooner or later someone has to pay.

someone has to pay except for the innocent people

[schumacher7championships]

it s not all greeks like this dear

[Mark]

What's your opinion then?

[schumacher7championships]

my opinion is that there is not way to overcome the crisis in a short period of time.

[Mark]

my opinion is that there is not way to overcime the crisis in a short period of time.

But not doing anything is not an option?

[schumacher7championships]

But not doing anything is not an option?
what do you mean?

[Retro Formula 1]

Greece is in a shocking mess because the politicians make the UK ones look like Saints, the people, from all walks of life, look on paying taxes as something of a novelty and the country has been tied into an economic mechanism that it wasn't suitable to enter.

The EU is pouring money into a leaky sieve under threat that otherwise Greece will default but there is no guarantee that after this money is paid, they wont go bankrupt and relaunch the Drachma anyway (which is what the majority of the population wants to do anyway IMHO).

Greece, Ireland, Spain have all had a disproportional amount of revenue from the EU and I have seen first hand how a criminal amount of money has been wasted, misappropriated or siphoned off for personal gain. I'm not blaming the Greek people for this but the politicians and EU have created this disgrace and just like the UK, the people will need to suffer the austerity measures.

[schumacher7championships]

Greece is in a shocking mess because the politicians make the UK ones look like Saints, the people, from all walks of life, look on paying taxes as something of a novelty and the country has been tied into an economic mechanism that it wasn't suitable to enter.

The EU is pouring money into a leaky sieve under threat that otherwise Greece will default but there is no guarantee that after this money is paid, they wont go bankrupt and relaunch the Drachma anyway (which is what the majority of the population wants to do anyway IMHO).

Greece, Ireland, Spain have all had a disproportional amount of revenue from the EU and I have seen first hand how a criminal amount of money has been wasted, misappropriated or siphoned off for personal gain. I'm not blaming the Greek people for this but the politicians and EU have created this disgrace and just like the UK, the people will need to suffer the austerity measures.
you are absolutely right and you seem to have understood our psychology

[Eki]

please tell me if you know something or someone related to sports in greece. :rolleyes:
I know odykas. He's a Schumacher fan.

[Alexamateo]

Isn't a large part of the problem in Greece that a huge portion of the economy is conducted "off-the-books"? Mexico is like that, a bureaucratic mess to register and become a legit business, so many just forego registering at all, and hence pay no formal taxes.

As far as sports, I know the Mexican Nery Castillo plays there, and the Olympics started there, and the basketballer Rony Seikaly is from there.

[anthonyvop]

someone has to pay except for the innocent people

And who are those innocent people?

Last time a Checked Greece was a Democracy. So the policies that led to the hole they are in was created and approved by the Majority.

[555-04Q2]

approved by the Majority.

And the majority of people in this world are idiots.

[Retro Formula 1]

you are absolutely right and you seem to have understood our psychology

I hope so. The ethnicity of my household is 50% Irish, 25% Greek, 12.5% English and 12.5% Scottish. I need to understand quite a lot about Psychology ;)

[CarlMetro]

Greece? I knew they'd come Acropolis......

Greece? "they've got bills, they're multiplyin', and they're losing control"

Sorry :D

[Garry Walker]

being a proud greek citizen i have always been concerned about what simple people in other european countries think about our deep recession and generally about our way of life.

please tell me if you know something or someone related to sports in greece. :rolleyes:

I think that it is time you guys stop living a life 15 levels above what you are really capable of, accept that there need to be huge cuts. Those crazy wages you have been getting, well, not anymore. Time to face reality.

[schumacher7championships]

well,to be honest i expected a mild or a stronger ''attack'' from everyone when i did that thread.however,i would like to read your comments about sports in greece and what you think about them.

[schumacher7championships]

As far as sports, I know the Mexican Nery Castillo plays there, and the Olympics started there, and the basketballer Rony Seikaly is from there.

castillo played in olympiacos before four years

[schumacher7championships]

has anyone heard anything about olympiacos?

[Garry Walker]

well,to be honest i expected a mild or a stronger ''attack'' from everyone when i did that thread.however,i would like to read your comments about sports in greece and what you think about them.

You caught me in a very good mood, otherwise I would have been much much harsher (and fairer) on the situation in greece.

[schumacher7championships]

You caught me in a very good mood, otherwise I would have been much much harsher (and fairer) on the situation in greece.
forunately i was lucky enough

[BDunnell]

well,to be honest i expected a mild or a stronger ''attack'' from everyone when i did that thread.

I can't understand why! Yes, your country may have its problems at the moment, but I can see no reasons why there should be any negativity towards Greece. The worst I can say is that, by all accounts, the Greek legal and penal system is not one I would like to experience, and does not really meet the standards one would expect of a civilised country.

[BDunnell]

And who are those innocent people?

Last time a Checked Greece was a Democracy. So the policies that led to the hole they are in was created and approved by the Majority.

Using that reasoning, no-one should ever object to the policies of any government in any democratic country. Am I right?

[BDunnell]

Greece is in a shocking mess because the politicians make the UK ones look like Saints

Absolutely. The same could be said for certain other southern European nations... In truth, I often think us Brits get off quite lightly!

[odykas]

And who are those innocent people?

Last time a Checked Greece was a Democracy. So the policies that led to the hole they are in was created and approved by the Majority.

That's right.
I believe that "innocent people" goes to people who vote against the parties and politicians responsible for this mess.
However, it seems that the majority still supports the same crooks :(

[anthonyvop]

Using that reasoning, no-one should ever object to the policies of any government in any democratic country. Am I right?

Not when the vast majority of people were happy and content with the system for decades and then get all outraged when it bites them in the ass.

The only Greeks who have a right to complain are those who called for massive budget cuts years ago.

[Retro Formula 1]

Absolutely. The same could be said for certain other southern European nations... In truth, I often think us Brits get off quite lightly!

Fair point.

The whole EU subsidy and grant issue sits unhappily with me as it creates unrealistic and unsustainable situations in countries. Before all this artificial "help", Greece worked. OK, the Politicians were corrupt and the people were not a great fan of centralized taxation (or centralized anything really) but it worked. The EU with it's "one size fits all" approach to how a countries economy needs to operate, has helped Greece and other countries develop a top down economy instead of a bottom up one.

It's going to be hard in the UK but one thing we should be grateful for is that we have a solid foundation to build on. I think the people of Greece, Spain, Portugal etc are going to have it a lot harder until they are realigned at a sustainable level.

[DexDexter]

being a proud greek citizen i have always been concerned about what simple people in other european countries think about our deep recession and generally about our way of life.

please tell me if you know something or someone related to sports in greece. :rolleyes:

For me it's very difficult to understand how you are doing so badly. You have a great climate, lots of tourism, great history and still you are so much poorer than us, who don't have history, have a harsh climate and are situated in the middle of nowhere and still we're the ones (along with other countries)who have to bail you out. Obviously there is something really wrong with the Greek society and the way the society and its people function.

[driveace]

Is one of the facts that your people can retire at 50 years old with nearly as much pension,as any one who is still in work.When I retired my government pension was a mere £84 per week.AND i manage.The people of Greece need to realize the problems they have,and face up to them,and pay their taxes,as we all have to do,remember what the British say "There is NO gain without the pain ",and we will be taking the pain for the next 4 years or more.

[markabilly]

What to think about Greece??

A great nation, and people, once upon a time, that has gone down the same path as the romans, then the Spanish, then the Brits, and now it appears, the good ole USA.

Into the dumpster.

[Roamy]

It will be a nice day when they disband the EU - I assume that will start to happen after spain and portugal hit the ditch. if the eu continues i bet the euro fails and you go back to your own monetary system.

but keep buying that chinese sh!t and we will all be there.

[donKey jote]

Is one of the facts that your people can retire at 50 years old with nearly as much pension,as any one who is still in work.

I believe that's a tabloid myth and not really the source of the problem. A few people maybe could retire early (in limited cases). In fact the average leaving age according to the OECD is similar (slightly higher ;) ) to that in Germany and the EU average.

[Retro Formula 1]

I think we need to realise the Euro experiment has failed and Greece may well be the linchpin that breaks it. If the IMF continue to bail out a country that deeply resents the measures of austerity currently in place then I fear it will destabilise the whole Eurozone.

[gadjo_dilo]

I love you! !!!!!!!!! ( I mean I love the greeks ).
I wish my people would have your courage and determination to come out to streets for a protest.

[MrJan]

has anyone heard anything about olympiacos?

Reasonable football team unlikely to shine above the top level Spanish & English clubs as well as, on their day, the French, Italians and Germans. Now tell me, have you heard anything about Exeter City FC? You should have done, afterall they are known sometimes as The Grecians.

*Awaits infraction points from Pino for suggesting that Italian football isn't the pinnacle*

[Bob Riebe]

I love you! !!!!!!!!! ( I mean I love the greeks ).
I wish my people would have your courage and determination to come out to streets for a protest.For what a government welfare hand-out rather than actually pay for something?

It does not take courage to be a leech, only self-pity.

[Jared East]

To me it just seems modern liberalism fails every where. It also seems being like Greece is the goal of the Obama administration.

[gadjo_dilo]

Ha! Reading this thread is like watching Cacoyannis's masterpiece " Zorba the Greek" ( I assume that apart from the greeks of the forum no one did read Kazantzakis's excellent novel ). :laugh:

I just remember a helpless Alan Bates looking at the performance of violence and death, unable to understand what happens, and the exuberance of Anthony Quinn, the guy who sees only the bright side of life.

[DexDexter]

To me it just seems modern liberalism fails every where. It also seems being like Greece is the goal of the Obama administration.

The situation in Greece has nothing to do with liberalism and Obama. If your knowledge of the world is that limited, it might be best not to comment.


I love you! !!!!!!!!! ( I mean I love the greeks ).
I wish my people would have your courage and determination to come out to streets for a protest.

You love the people who protest against measures that will save them from total doom? It's funny that people protest against measures that are the result of their own stupid behavior such as lack of work ethic, reluctance to play taxes and so on.

[Bob Riebe]

The situation in Greece has nothing to do with liberalism and Obama. If your knowledge of the world is that limited, it might be best not to comment.
.

The situtation in Greece is the very direction Liberal politics are taking this countryand where we could very well end up if Obama is re-elcted.

The reaction in Greece is basically similar to what happened in Wisconsin, minus violence, when the State Government applied fairly similar measures to people on
Government payroll there.

[gadjo_dilo]

You love the people who protest against measures that will save them from total doom? It's funny that people protest against measures that are the result of their own stupid behavior such as lack of work ethic, reluctance to play taxes and so on.

I'm afraid you're too reasonable to understand the crazy colourful life of the Balkans. You have to be one of us to understand and love it.

[N. Jones]

being a proud greek citizen i have always been concerned about what simple people in other european countries think about our deep recession and generally about our way of life.

please tell me if you know something or someone related to sports in greece. :rolleyes:

As a simple american citizen I think you and your countrymen are doing the right thing - standing up and saying NO, we will not sacrifice while the wealthy become more wealthy.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I think the Greek people have been been lied to and fooled into thinking that they can have it all..but when the government cant borrow money anymore, it all crashes to a halt. Compassionate governement doesn't overspend to the point the state collapses. It doesn't give civil servants full pensions after short terms. It doesn't run a government so corrupt that people feel fine in cheating it.

All this blaming this on the "rich" pressupposes the Middle class bureaucrats who scream if anyone touched their unrealistic expectations of a pention didn't exist. The fact is, Greece is relying now on the Germans and the rest of the EC to bail them out....because they didn't have any guts to say no. It is a sad state of affairs.....but like spoiled children, those in the streets want others to pay for their lifestyle....

[janvanvurpa]

To me it just seems modern liberalism fails every where. It also seems being like Greece is the goal of the Obama administration.

Greece is not "modern Liberalism"...

And what are you suggesting does work???
Modern consumer capitalism?


And what does Obama have to do with Greeks crisis?

[Rudy Tamasz]

I think the Greek people have been been lied to and fooled into thinking that they can have it all..

Sorry, Mark, you are wrong. Average Greeks are as much to blame for the collapse as the government. All Greeks knew things were heading in the wrong direction yet preferred to live a carefree life and take advantage of benefits. It's a case of the whole country living in denial. We have a lot of that in Belarus so I can understand the situation in Greece.

[gadjo_dilo]

Sorry, Mark, you are wrong. Average Greeks are as much to blame for the collapse as the government. All Greeks knew things were heading in the wrong direction yet preferred to live a carefree life and take advantage of benefits. It's a case of the whole country living in denial. We have a lot of that in Belarus so I can understand the situation in Greece.

Now I'm curious. If your country is facing same problems then you as an average ( generally speaking ) citizen will happily agree with some tough austherity measures? To be honest I never heared about people who won't be bothered by a cut of salary/indemnization/pension, a tax rising, etc.

[Rudy Tamasz]

Fortunately enough, I do not depend on the government for my living. I can understand other people's difficulties, but I see that they had it coming. Most people work for the government where loyalty and obedience are valued and rewarded more than professionalism and integrity. I.e. in many cases the size of salary is not proportional to efficiency and productivity of the worker, which means that salaries are in fact some sort of handouts. People were willing to put up with that for years without trying to look for better opportunities while handouts were decent. Now the econonomy is going nowhere, prices are rising and the exchange rate of our national currency is plummeting. That's just the cost of living beyond one's means and I am not sympathetic.

[gadjo_dilo]

Rudy, what do you mean by looking for better opportunities?

Fortunately you're not a "budgetarian" but what would you do if you were?
I mean I'm one who's working for government. I work hard and many times under pressure for an average salary. I also understand the dificulties of our economy. However I was less than happy last year when my salary was cut by 25% ( in a terrible combination with an increase of VAT from 19 to 24% ). What posibility of a decent life do I have?

Mind you, I'm not very young and I'm not long legged.

[Rudy Tamasz]

Honestly, I don't have a ready recipe for you or Greece or anybody else. One thing I know is that if somebody lives beyond one's means, he or she goes broke at the end of the day. On the level of a country it is always difficult to identify the problem early. Everybody thinks, "I work hard and deserve my salary. Let those fat cats pay the outstanding bills". In reality everybody has a part in bringing the disaster closer. Logically, if the whole nation contributed to the problem, then the whole nation has to work on the solution with no exception, poor folks or millionaires. The "me versus that guy" mentality will only make things worse.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Gee Rudy...no class warfare? How will some people manage?? It is always someone else's fault!!!

You are a wise man Rudy.....

[gadjo_dilo]

Honestly, I don't have a ready recipe for you or Greece or anybody else. One thing I know is that if somebody lives beyond one's means, he or she goes broke at the end of the day. On the level of a country it is always difficult to identify the problem early. Everybody thinks, "I work hard and deserve my salary. Let those fat cats pay the outstanding bills". In reality everybody has a part in bringing the disaster closer. Logically, if the whole nation contributed to the problem, then the whole nation has to work on the solution with no exception, poor folks or millionaires. The "me versus that guy" mentality will only make things worse.

Yeah, sounds logical when you judge it " at cool ". Personally I don't live beyond my means and I don't feel guilty at all for what is happening, I'm very careful with my money and I could even survive ( although it was hard ) with the salary cut. I pay my taxes in advance, I never applied for a loan, I don't need villas and expensive cars. I even saved money for black days. But I'm sick of living like this. I'm really hard working and I want to live a safe life. In the communist period we were taught that although the economy was flourishing ( was it? ) the consuption fund should be low and development funds high in order to assure to the next generations a great life. I accepted it and sometimes I literally starved and cried when a new bill came in the mail box. And here's the "wild capitalism" when I'm supposed to be paid according to my work. I'm not very demanding but still I can't understand why I have to do again sacrifices when a lot of public money are thrown to the window. We are asked to understand austherity measures but our parliament members spend our money by attending meetings in exotic destinations, the city halls spend our money on parties or on stupid competitions to enter Guiness book, etc. With public money we are building sport halls in villages and keep them locked because nobody need them, we're doing parks in mountain villages where nobody need them, etc., etc., etc.
I'm an idealist ( better said naive :laugh :) and I'll be the first to clench my belt if I know that my effort would help. But I see it's in vain and I have the right to be angry.
That's only one side of my symphaty for the Greeks. I wish we have their courage to protest.
The other side belongs to my greek roots - my both parents were born there, I have many relatives there and I love the way they are.

[Knock-on]

I think we need to realise the Euro experiment has failed and Greece may well be the linchpin that breaks it. If the IMF continue to bail out a country that deeply resents the measures of austerity currently in place then I fear it will destabilise the whole Eurozone.

I was thinking about this again recently.

There is now a blind panic that Greece will default and leave the Euro which will destabilise the whole currency but then I started wondering what the knock-on effect would be.

We have already seen banks in France catching a cold and the French credit rating taking a battering because of Greece but what about the Euro. Will it fail? Can it be propped up? What will be the impact?

Personally, I'm considering whether it might signify the beginning of a global monetary realignment which will ultimately end with the USA writing off it's nations debt causing a domino effect around the globe.

After all, America can never pay back it's debt so why not write it off and start again? I don't think Obama has the balls but who knows if a new incumbent will?

Strange to think that the Country that gave us the foundation of modern western culture and civilisation may ultimately bring down the global economy as we know it. Almost fated, isn't it.