Sir Stirling Moss retires at last

[D-Type]

This news (http://www.stirlingmoss.com/articles/news/sir-stirling-moss-obe-announces-his-retirement-motor-racing) broke yesterday. The key sentence is
On his retirement Stirling said “This afternoon I scared myself and I have always said that if I felt I was not up to it or that I was getting in the way of fellow competitors, then I would retire”.I have to admit that I felt a mixture of regret that an era has ended and sense of relief that he has decided to call it a day - on the track anyway. Hopefully he will still be around as motor racing's elder statesman for a while longer.

[steveaki13]

Shame He was in the frame to replace Perez after he gave up on his Sauber seat this weekend.

[steveaki13]

No but he is a legend, and it has always been great to see him driving his old cars at Goodwood and alike.

Probably is about time to retire though.

[Robinho]

didn't he fall down a lift shaft last year? and was still racing at Le Mans in the legends this week! pity he had to call it a day, but at 81 its probably fair enough

[Cooper_S]

He has had a better career than many Champions... I'm sure hanging up the driving gloves will not mean he will just stay at home... expect to see him at all the usual gatherings for a while yet.

[Mark]

81 and still racing. A legend indeed!

[Sonic]

Its a mark of the man that, instead of carrying on and giving it anything less than 100%, he recognises his limitations and calls it a day. I expect we'll still see him behind the wheel for slow demo runs up goodwood hill perhaps.

[moro]

Before I really don't know there are so many things in another!

[555-04Q2]

I hope I can still get it up at 81 :p :

[steveaki13]

Its a mark of the man that, instead of carrying on and giving it anything less than 100%, he recognises his limitations and calls it a day. I expect we'll still see him behind the wheel for slow demo runs up goodwood hill perhaps.

He was on Radio 2 this morning speaking to Chris Evans as Jake Humphrey is guest sports reporter the next 3 days, and he said he still intends to do demonstrations and hill runs at goodwood, just not actual flat out racing.

He mention he and Jack Brabham are the only two FIA sanctioned drivers who are allowed to race historic cars without seatbelts, overalls and helmets.

They are given special allowance to race there old cars as they did at the time.

[The Black Knight]

He's a man I'm not very fond of myself but I very much respect him and his contributions to the world of motor racing. I regard him as a brilliant driver but sadly he will never be an all time great in my book. Great great driver, yes. All time great, no! However, 100% respect to him for staying racing so long and knowing when to finally call it a day with mucho dignity.

[steveaki13]

He's a man I'm not very fond of myself but I very much respect him and his contributions to the world of motor racing. I regard him as a brilliant driver but sadly he will never be an all time great in my book. Great great driver, yes. All time great, no! However, 100% respect to him for staying racing so long and knowing when to finally call it a day with mucho dignity.

Interested to know and not for any stupid reasons like many posts.

Why are you not very fond of him?

[The Black Knight]

Interested to know and not for any stupid reasons like many posts.

Why are you not very fond of him?

Anyone who said a 7 time WDC was lucky to win his championships is daft. He has lost a plot a bit in recent years especially with regards to Schuey. Maybe it's age though :)

[steveaki13]

Anyone who said a 7 time WDC was lucky to win his championships is daft. He has lost a plot a bit in recent years especially with regards to Schuey. Maybe it's age though :)

Could be.

The whole world may seem alot different and freaky when your 81.

[BDunnell]

Anyone who said a 7 time WDC was lucky to win his championships is daft. He has lost a plot a bit in recent years especially with regards to Schuey. Maybe it's age though :)

Or maybe it's a matter of opinion.

[Mark]

A valid opinion and one held by many.

[The Black Knight]

Or maybe it's a matter of opinion.

Well if it is then his opinoin has changed because he was well able to praise Schumacher's performances in his early years, even at Ferrari.

As far as I'm concerned, Stirling Moss is an idiot. He wasn't always that way though. He clearly has gone banana's with age.

[The Black Knight]

A valid opinion and one held by many.

It's not a valid opinion. You can't wain 7 WDC by luck. It's not possible. David Coulthard himself said he believes Schumacher to be the most complete driver to ever compete in the sport. There are plenty others around like him that also believe that. The records also show the same. Anyone who says that Schumacher was lucky to win 7WDC after the perfomances he produced throughout his career is an absolute idiot.

[BDunnell]

As far as I'm concerned, Stirling Moss is an idiot. He wasn't always that way though. He clearly has gone banana's with age.

Ah, so this explains the lucid recollections and coherent comments I hear when he speaks, does it?

[BDunnell]

It's not a valid opinion.

According to whom? There is a degree of luck, at the very least, involved in most things.

[The Black Knight]

Ah, so this explains the lucid recollections and coherent comments I hear when he speaks, does it?

Luckid and coherent doesn't mean his perspective hasn't been touched with a dash of senility.

[The Black Knight]

According to whom? There is a degree of luck, at the very least, involved in most things.

You can't be lucky all the time man. You might be lucky for 1 championship but you don't win more than one championship simply by luck. He worked his ass off and got those championships he deserved because he simply was the best out there and is one of the greatest of all time :s mokin:

[BDunnell]

Luckid and coherent doesn't mean his perspective hasn't touch with a dash of senility.

And do you have access to expert medical opinion to back up your assertion as to Moss' alleged state of mind? Or is it just that a bit of criticism of Schumacher by someone not in the first flush of youth means that said individual must, in your eyes, be senile?

[ArrowsFA1]

Forget Schumacher. The two words that spring to mind where Sir Stirling Moss is concerned are class and legend. His was a career that illustrates very well that numbers alone do not equal greatness.

[The Black Knight]

And do you have access to expert medical opinion to back up your assertion as to Moss' alleged state of mind? Or is it just that a bit of criticism of Schumacher by someone not in the first flush of youth means that said individual must, in your eyes, be senile?

Oh not at all. Here's a quote from Stirling Moss on Schumacher's 1996 Spanish GP drive:

"It wasn't a race, it was a display of brilliance."

So can you explain to me what changed? How can I possibly come to a different conclusion?

If you want to go down another road other than the senility one then I can only think that he is really jealous of Schumacher because he could never have been half the driver Schuey was. Stirling is probably bitter that he never won a WDC, even though he says it doesn't bother him, I really beg to differ. Given the era in which Moss was born, Schumacher's nationality probably doesn't help his cause either.

I don't get this reference to Moss being an all time great either. He was continually trounced by Fangio, a man 18 years his senior, whilst Moss was in his prime.

Stirling Moss - overrated and quite probably now is senile.

[BDunnell]

Oh great — another unpleasant fanboy with a complete lack of historical perspective. Just what the forum needs.

[The Black Knight]

Oh great — another unpleasant fanboy with a complete lack of historical perspective. Just what the forum needs.

I take it you've no answer to my questions on why Moss changed his mind about Schumacher then. Fine, that settles it for me :D

[BDunnell]

I take it you've no answer to my questions on why Moss changed his mind about Schumacher then. Fine, that settles it for me :D

In what sense did he change his mind? There is no conflict between the two standpoints at all, other than in your imagination.

[SGWilko]

Oh not at all. Here's a quote from Stirling Moss on Schumacher's 1996 Spanish GP drive:

"It wasn't a race, it was a display of brilliance."

So can you explain to me what changed? How can I possibly come to a different conclusion?

Sir Stirling was very correct in what he stated re that race. But the point about the Shoe is that at both Benetton and Ferrari, his team mates were not allowed to race him, and the whole team (including development of the tyres) were driven around Schumacher.

No one is saying the Shoe is no good, just that he made his own luck in the terms he dictated to the teams he drove for prior to his retirement in 2006.

[Mark]

So by your definition anyone at all who claims that Schumacher didn't win all 7 championships by anything other than pure skill somehow has a mental illness. Oh please!

[Mekola]

Smart decision for a great legend like Moss. He has retired from motorsport at about the same age as Fangio did that (last time the Maestro drove an F1 car was around 1991, when he was 80).

[BDunnell]

So by your definition anyone at all who claims that Schumacher didn't win all 7 championships by anything other than pure skill somehow has a mental illness. Oh please!

Thank you, Mark. It's offensive and erroneous.

[The Black Knight]

Sir Stirling was very correct in what he stated re that race. But the point about the Shoe is that at both Benetton and Ferrari, his team mates were not allowed to race him, and the whole team (including development of the tyres) were driven around Schumacher.

No one is saying the Shoe is no good, just that he made his own luck in the terms he dictated to the teams he drove for prior to his retirement in 2006.

That's exactly what made him so good though :)

[The Black Knight]

Thank you, Mark. It's offensive and erroneous.

Too bad if you find it offensive.

The point about Spain 96 was there was nothing lucky about that win. It was down to driver skill and he demolished the entire field, just like he demolished them for pretty much all his career. It wasn't luck it was skill. And therein lies the contradiction, you can't say someone is brilliant on one hand and then come back and say they were lucky to achieve what they did on the other. Only someone brilliant could achieve 7 WDC's.

[Robinho]

did he actually say he was lucky to win all 7, or did he say he was lucky to find himself in a team (which i acknowledge he was part of) that went through a period of unparalleled domination and reliability and at a time when there was perhaps a lack of a long term natural rival or consistency of quality at the top of the sport as we have today? and that perhaps he enjoyed some pretty good luck on the way to a few of his championships?

[BDunnell]

Too bad if you find it offensive.

The point about Spain 96 was there was nothing lucky about that win. It was down to driver skill and he demolished the entire field, just like he demolished them for pretty much all his career. It wasn't luck it was skill. And therein lies the contradiction, you can't say someone is brilliant on one hand and then come back and say they were lucky to achieve what they did on the other. Only someone brilliant could achieve 7 WDC's.

Yes you can. There are lucky wins, and then there are wins that aren't down to luck. It can also be said that Schumacher was, perhaps, fortunate that in his era of domination the opposition he was up against wasn't as strong as the current crop.

Beyond that, you seem to have an undue problem with everyone whose every comment about your favourite driver isn't an undiluted paean of praise. Your attitude betrays a complete (and, if I may say so, rather juvenile) lack of knowledge and appreciation of history.

Oh, and your accusations of senility are offensive. There is no other way of describing them.

[Bob Riebe]

Ah, but if Shumacher, had to race Danica Patrick, would he stand a chance?

[D-Type]

Anyone who said a 7 time WDC was lucky to win his championships is daft. He has lost a plot a bit in recent years especially with regards to Schuey. Maybe it's age though :)
This is causing some upset.

Can you please tell us exactly what Moss said?

[Bob Riebe]

Lucid and coherent doesn't mean his perspective hasn't been touched with a dash of senility.The full term for senility is Senile Dementia, so lucid and coherent does mean his perspective has not been touched by a dash of senility.

[ArrowsFA1]

It's a real shame that a thread marking Sir Stirling's retirement has been derailed by comments sadly reminiscent of a Max Mosley insult :dozey:

[Robinho]

I've done a bit of a search on google and it seems what Sir Stirling actually said was:

"I think he was lucky to get all those titles, frankly. He (Schumacher) got them because he was in the right car."

Which IMO is prety accurate, no-one is doubting that he had to drive the car to victory, something he did a huge number of times, but it could easily seen as lucky that Schumacher was in a car good enough to win a championship in at least 7 seasons, not to mention the years he nearly won against JV, Mika and Alonso, so you could argue that for 10 seasons Schumacher had a car capable of wining the title.

Thats not to say he is lucky to actually win, but its pretty fortunate to be in that position for that length of time during his career. He would not have won 7 titles if he'd ended up in a Williams or a MacLaren at the wrong time, but other than a couple of dodgy Ferraris in his early time there he nealry always had a car capable and rarely a teamate as good to challenge him.

It might have been a bit of a controversial statement for Moss to make, but its hardly inaccurate either

[The Black Knight]

Yes you can. There are lucky wins, and then there are wins that aren't down to luck. It can also be said that Schumacher was, perhaps, fortunate that in his era of domination the opposition he was up against wasn't as strong as the current crop.

Beyond that, you seem to have an undue problem with everyone whose every comment about your favourite driver isn't an undiluted paean of praise. Your attitude betrays a complete (and, if I may say so, rather juvenile) lack of knowledge and appreciation of history.

Oh, and your accusations of senility are offensive. There is no other way of describing them.

I've no issues with people fairly criticising another driver or Schumacher. I myself have criticised him in the past for moves he has done and I don't agree with everything he has done either. I have issues with a driver, especially one that has never even won a championship, devaluing the achievements another driver worked so hard to achieve.

Schumacher broke his balls to achieve 7 world championships. The only person I see with a lack of appreciation is Stirling Moss. Schumacher has given a lot to F1 and has earned the right to some respect. He has earned it far more than Moss has as far as I'm concerned.

Regards the drivers of Schumacher's generation, that's an insult to drivers such as Alonso, Hakkinen, Raikkonen, Massa etc who all competed against Schumacher in his prime. I also see no evidence to suggest that the current generation of drivers is any better than those in F1 ten years ago. Schumacher simply blew them away in his Ferrari days. F1 always has the best drivers available in the world at all times and unless you can give me some evidence that the level of world talent can somehow vary over the course of a ten year period I’ll stick to what I said, there was no difference in driver talent between Schumaher’s generation and the current one, Schumacher was simply the best driver throughout the course of his first F1 career.

I'm also well aware of Moss's history and how good he was, but the point remains, he never won a world championship and couldn't do so against a guy 18 years his senior. Even after Fangio retired he still didn't become world champion. He came third in 59, 60 and 61. I'd also like to point out that only a few years ago Moss ranked Schumacher as 4th in the pantheon of greatest drivers - yet he still believes that he was lucky to win 7 WDC's. Contradiction? I think so.

Schumacher earned those wins by hard work and determination and doesn't deserve to have those championships devalued and belittled by a guy that couldn't even win one.

[The Black Knight]

I've done a bit of a search on google and it seems what Sir Stirling actually said was:
"I think he was lucky to get all those titles, frankly. He (Schumacher) got them because he was in the right car."
Which IMO is prety accurate, no-one is doubting that he had to drive the car to victory, something he did a huge number of times, but it could easily seen as lucky that Schumacher was in a car good enough to win a championship in at least 7 seasons, not to mention the years he nearly won against JV, Mika and Alonso, so you could argue that for 10 seasons Schumacher had a car capable of wining the title.
Thats not to say he is lucky to actually win, but its pretty fortunate to be in that position for that length of time during his career. He would not have won 7 titles if he'd ended up in a Williams or a MacLaren at the wrong time, but other than a couple of dodgy Ferraris in his early time there he nealry always had a car capable and rarely a teamate as good to challenge him.
It might have been a bit of a controversial statement for Moss to make, but its hardly inaccurate either
Well, I disagree with that completely. Schumacher made his own luck by working with the Ferrari engineers to develop a car that could win WDC’s. It was his ability to pay attention to all technical details and to scrupulously inspect every single aspect of the car that won him his 7 WDC’s and ensured he had a brilliant car throughout those years. That’s part of what made him better than the rest. F1 is just as much about what you do off the track as what you do on it :)

I'll admit there was some luck, a little, involved to be able to get and attract the right people around him for to develop the Ferrari as they did but it was not luck that won him the 7 WDC's. It was his hard work and skill.

[Mark]

And you're entitled to that opinion as it's a completely valid one. However the point is that what Moss said is also a valid opinion and is not indicative of mental illness. I dare say Sir Stirling knows a damn sight more about Formula 1 than anybody on this forum, including myself.

[The Black Knight]

And you're entitled to that opinion as it's a completely valid one. However the point is that what Moss said is also a valid opinion and is not indicative of mental illness. I dare say Sir Stirling knows a damn sight more about Formula 1 than anybody on this forum, including myself.

How would Stirling know more about F1 than any of us exactly? He hasn't raced in F1 for 50 years. For sure he has contacts still but I doubt Stirling knows anymore about Schumacher and Ferrari than anyone that watched the TV Coverage.

[BDunnell]

How would Stirling know more about F1 than any of us exactly? He hasn't raced in F1 for 50 years. For sure he has contacts still but I doubt Stirling knows anymore about Schumacher and Ferrari than anyone that watched the TV Coverage.

A statement typical of the generation who believe that because they are given the forum for their opinion on websites such as this, those opinions must be as valid as those whose involvement in the subject in question has run rather deeper than just watching and commenting.

[The Black Knight]

A statement typical of the generation who believe that because they are given the forum for their opinion on websites such as this, those opinions must be as valid as those whose involvement in the subject in question has run rather deeper than just watching and commenting.

A statement typical of a man from a generation that makes assumptions about others involvement in a sport when he knows nothing about them :D

[BDunnell]

A statement typical of a man from a generation that makes assumptions about others involvement in a sport when he knows nothing about them :D

I think we know quite a lot about Stirling Moss, do we not? Mark's statement above is entirely accurate.

[The Black Knight]

I think we know quite a lot about Stirling Moss, do we not? Mark's statement above is entirely accurate.

Indeed and I think we know quite enough about Schumacher to know that Stirling's statment about him being luck to win 7 WDC's is completely inaccurate. I've met Sir Stirling twice myself. While it may not seem obvious from my posts I do respect Sir Stirling and, lucid as he may seem, he genuinely has lost perspective on Schumacher. I don't know is it that he is jealous or what, but he certainly has a brain fade when it comes to the 7 time WDC. He also isn't consistent in his evaluation of him either.

[BDunnell]

Indeed and I think we know quite enough about Schumacher to know that Stirling's statment about him being luck to win 7 WDC's is completely inaccurate. I've met Sir Stirling twice myself. While it may not seem obvious from my posts I do respect Sir Stirling and, lucid as he may seem, he genuinely has lost perspective on Schumacher. I don't know is it that he is jealous or what, but he certainly has a brain fade when it comes to the 7 time WDC. He also isn't consistent in his evaluation of him either.

I still think your assessment is typical of the more blinkered aspects of the 'fanboy' approach to F1 enthusiasm, sadly.

[The Black Knight]

I still think your assessment is typical of the more blinkered aspects of the 'fanboy' approach to F1 enthusiasm, sadly.

I could say the same about your assessment of Stirling given that you don't agree with my opinion :)

[Bob Riebe]

Well, I disagree with that completely. Schumacher made his own luck by working with the Ferrari engineers to develop a car that could win WDC’s. It was his ability to pay attention to all technical details and to scrupulously inspect every single aspect of the car that won him his 7 WDC’s and ensured he had a brilliant car throughout those years. That’s part of what made him better than the rest. F1 is just as much about what you do off the track as what you do on it :)

I'll admit there was some luck, a little, involved to be able to get and attract the right people around him for to develop the Ferrari as they did but it was not luck that won him the 7 WDC's. It was his hard work and skill.
I agree here, there IS NO such thing as luck. Shumacher was fortunate, but you make your own fortune.
At time one is has the benefit, or suffers the consequences of a twist of fate, but on the whole how fortunate one is, is the result of the one's drive and determination.

Shumacher's talent may have been not really as a driver, but as a business man whose business was being sure he was in the best car, at the correct time.

[Bob Riebe]

A statement typical of the generation who believe that because they are given the forum for their opinion on websites such as this, those opinions must be as valid as those whose involvement in the subject in question has run rather deeper than just watching and commenting.To be fair, over the decades, and this was decades ago, I heard(TV) read several times, drivers of the day saying "when was the last time he actually drove a F-1 (or has he ever driven an Indy) car?"

They were grumbling a bit that he did seem to be a bit of a legend in his own mind.

Makes one wonder, had he not crashed himself out of competition and gone on to a championship, and let's say, won Indy, what would hes ego have been like?

[steveaki13]

A statement typical of the generation who believe that because they are given the forum for their opinion on websites such as this, those opinions must be as valid as those whose involvement in the subject in question has run rather deeper than just watching and commenting.

Agree.

I am from this generation, but until I have driven in, attended and spoken to people involved in as many Grand Prix as Stirling has then I wont be declaring I now more about F1 than him despite almost 20 years of solid viewing.



This whole debate about the mental state of Moss, is bizzare.

[steveaki13]

He also isn't consistent in his evaluation of him either.

Surely opinion can change though and doesn't have to be consistent.

For example Hakkinen was extremely lucky to get his first win in Jerez 97, he didn't really earn or deserve the victory as much as a straight race win. So my opinion is he was lucky to achieve that win, however that doesn't mean my opinion is that Hakkinen was lucky to win 2 world titles.

The 98 and 99 titles were won through brilliant skill and driving against one Michael Schumacher and so my opinion of those events are not consistant.

The same as Stirling thought Schumachers win was awesome in Spain 96, he maybe felt Schumacher got a slice of luck in winning 7 titles rather than say 5.

Now I am not saying I agree, as I feel Schumi deserved and earned all of those titles through years of hard work and graft, but my point is that peoples opinions of different events and careers vary and are not always consistent.

And are valid!!

To say because he praised Schumi for Spain 96 he then can't question two world titles later is a bit foolish.

[BDunnell]

To be fair, over the decades, and this was decades ago, I heard(TV) read several times, drivers of the day saying "when was the last time he actually drove a F-1 (or has he ever driven an Indy) car?"

Somewhat different from some person on an internet forum believing they know better.

[BDunnell]

I am from this generation, but until I have driven in, attended and spoken to people involved in as many Grand Prix as Stirling has then I wont be declaring I now more about F1 than him despite almost 20 years of solid viewing.

Nor me.

[The Black Knight]

Somewhat different from some person on an internet forum believing they know better.

Oh I don't believe I know better. I know I do. I've met plenty of people from the paddock and I attend quite a lot of F1 races myself. I'm lucky that way that through my karting career I made a lot of friends that are now in F1 circles, all before an accident forced me to end my racing.

Stirling Moss, as someone said above, has a big ego on him. I would love to see a driver of this generation tear into him and take him down a peg or two. Unfortunately, too many people believe he is a legend despite never even winning a title and losing to a man 18 years his senior and I doubt any driver would take that "legend" on. This infatuation that people have with him has always baffled me, honestly.

[The Black Knight]

Surely opinion can change though and doesn't have to be consistent.

For example Hakkinen was extremely lucky to get his first win in Jerez 97, he didn't really earn or deserve the victory as much as a straight race win. So my opinion is he was lucky to achieve that win, however that doesn't mean my opinion is that Hakkinen was lucky to win 2 world titles.

The 98 and 99 titles were won through brilliant skill and driving against one Michael Schumacher and so my opinion of those events are not consistant.

The same as Stirling thought Schumachers win was awesome in Spain 96, he maybe felt Schumacher got a slice of luck in winning 7 titles rather than say 5.

Now I am not saying I agree, as I feel Schumi deserved and earned all of those titles through years of hard work and graft, but my point is that peoples opinions of different events and careers vary and are not always consistent.

And are valid!!

To say because he praised Schumi for Spain 96 he then can't question two world titles later is a bit foolish.
Well, between the time that Moss rated Schumacher 4th best ever and then said he was lucky to win his World Titles, Schumacher was after 3 years off and only competed in a few grand prix.

Explain to me how his mind could have changed so much?

[Mark]

Why shouldn't it have? And him saying Schumacher is the 4th best and saying he was lucky is not incompatible or inconsistent at all.

[Robinho]

FGS he didn't say he was lucky to win his Titles, he said he was lucky to win ALL of his titles, and qualified the luck as being lucky to have been in a race winning car for so long.

You pointed out 2 things, that Schumacher brough the team together at Ferrari and worked very hard to make it a winner, but he was only one cog, and it was the management that brought the team together and it did all gel and excel for a long period. You also point to the drivers he beat (and occasionally lost to) like Raikkonen, Hakkinen, Alonso, when these guys had race winning cars they won races, but none of them were able to call upon a race winning car for the same length of time in their career as Scumacher did. I would say that was pretty lucky, and regardless of whether "you make your own luck", its still a prrivelgied and fortunate situation to find himself in. He made the best of it, but it could have happened to another driver and they may well have won 4 or 5 titles whilst MS struggled in an uncompetitive Williams or Mclaren.

Moss never stated that MS lucky to win anything, only that 7 titles could be seen as partly lucky

[BDunnell]

Oh I don't believe I know better. I know I do. I've met plenty of people from the paddock and I attend quite a lot of F1 races myself. I'm lucky that way that through my karting career I made a lot of friends that are now in F1 circles, all before an accident forced me to end my racing.

Stirling Moss, as someone said above, has a big ego on him. I would love to see a driver of this generation tear into him and take him down a peg or two. Unfortunately, too many people believe he is a legend despite never even winning a title and losing to a man 18 years his senior and I doubt any driver would take that "legend" on. This infatuation that people have with him has always baffled me, honestly.

As I said, you lack any historical perspective whatsoever. What are your views on, for example, the likes of Chris Amon who failed ever to win an F1 race, or Dan Gurney who never became World Champion? Abject failures?

[The Black Knight]

As I said, you lack any historical perspective whatsoever. What are your views on, for example, the likes of Chris Amon who failed ever to win an F1 race, or Dan Gurney who never became World Champion? Abject failures?

Nope you do. I made my own mind up about Moss based on his results. You simply went with whatever you were told or the norm should I say :D

I don't see what Dan Gurney or Chris Amon really have to do with this except that, like Moss, they both failed to win a championship but were also fantastic drivers.

[BDunnell]

Nope you do. I made my own mind up about Moss based on his results. You simply went with whatever you were told or the norm should I say :D

Er... no.



I don't see what Dan Gurney or Chris Amon really have to do with this except that, like Moss, they both failed to win a championship but were also fantastic drivers.

I am glad you concede that, at least, although I am sure that were one to make the slightest criticism of Schumacher you would brand them as senile.

[The Black Knight]

Er... no.



I am glad you concede that, at least, although I am sure that were one to make the slightest criticism of Schumacher you would brand them as senile.

Never said Moss wasn't a brilliant driver. He was a great driver, but not one of the all time greats as far as I'm concerned.

[BDunnell]

Never said Moss wasn't a brilliant driver. He was a great driver, but not one of the all time greats as far as I'm concerned.

On that, we — and I'm hardly the only one — must agree to disagree, just as I hope you will take back the view that the rest of us have just bought in to some standard viewpoint.

[D-Type]

Folks,

ENOUGH!

Please can we have no more personal insults, criticisms, aspersion, etc
If you put forward a controversial view, this is your prerogative. But, you must be prepared to substantiate it and should do so when asked.

I hope you get the picture.

[555-04Q2]

I hope you get the picture.

I can't see the picture. Can you post it again.....

[Robinho]

saw a programme on BBC4 where Richard Hammond spoke to StirlingMoss about, amongst other things, recovering from a huge accident that nearly killed him, relating also to Haamonds dragster crash and brain injury. The man is definately not in the slightest bit senile, he might be outspoken, but his thoughts were conveyed incredibly clearly

[CarlMetro]

Stirling Moss is an idiot.

He probably thinks the same about you.

We are all entitled to our opinions and many in the past have disagreed with minority or contraversial ones. That is what life is all about. However may I suggest you pop down to your local library or even use t'internet to find out a little about the man and just some of his accomplishments?

From what I've read of your posts, which is not much I admit, you seem to be a bit of a Ferrari/Schumi fan like myself? Go grab yourself any book on Ferrari history and you will find plenty in there that would tell you what Ferrari thought of him. Read any book on Schumi (that's worth reading) and you will find that HE sees Moss as one of the all time greatest drivers, a person whom HE has a deep respect for.

As someone else said, I hope I can still breathe, chew my own food and fart without needing to change my pants every time I do. Let alone still be highly competitive and winning races against much younger competitors at his age.

[SGWilko]

fart without needing to change my pants every time .

Go commando - job done! ;)

[The Black Knight]

He probably thinks the same about you.

We are all entitled to our opinions and many in the past have disagreed with minority or contraversial ones. That is what life is all about. However may I suggest you pop down to your local library or even use t'internet to find out a little about the man and just some of his accomplishments?

From what I've read of your posts, which is not much I admit, you seem to be a bit of a Ferrari/Schumi fan like myself? Go grab yourself any book on Ferrari history and you will find plenty in there that would tell you what Ferrari thought of him. Read any book on Schumi (that's worth reading) and you will find that HE sees Moss as one of the all time greatest drivers, a person whom HE has a deep respect for.

As someone else said, I hope I can still breathe, chew my own food and fart without needing to change my pants every time I do. Let alone still be highly competitive and winning races against much younger competitors at his age.

I know plenty about Stirling Moss. I don't need to educate myself further on him. Regards the part in bold, I'd love to see a link or reference for that as I never heard Schumacher talk about him anywhere. Also, what Schumacher thinks of Moss has nothing to do with my opinion of him.

As for whom I am a fan of, I have always been a Schumacher, Senna fan foremost. I am also a big fan of Hamilton because of his attitude and inclination towards proper racing.

Whether Moss even reads this forum or not I don't care. I care not what he thinks or believes. I am voicing my opinion and that is that he is overrated, an idiot and also up his own ass. This is my opinion, which I am also entitled to as you said yourself :)

PS: I am definitely not a Ferrari fan.

[555-04Q2]

PS: I am definitely not a Ferrari fan.

Well no one is perfect :p :

[CarlMetro]

I know plenty about Stirling Moss. I don't need to educate myself further on him. Regards the part in bold, I'd love to see a link or reference for that as I never heard Schumacher talk about him anywhere. Also, what Schumacher thinks of Moss has nothing to do with my opinion of him.

As for whom I am a fan of, I have always been a Schumacher, Senna fan foremost. I am also a big fan of Hamilton because of his attitude and inclination towards proper racing.

Whether Moss even reads this forum or not I don't care. I care not what he thinks or believes. I am voicing my opinion and that is that he is overrated, an idiot and also up his own ass. This is my opinion, which I am also entitled to as you said yourself :)

PS: I am definitely not a Ferrari fan.

I was always lead to believe that you weren't allowed more than one identity on this forum? The similarities between the ignorant and down right rude drivel you spout and that of another certain tit-head on this forum are remarkable. Do you have a brother by chance?

[The Black Knight]

I was always lead to believe that you weren't allowed more than one identity on this forum? The similarities between the ignorant and down right rude drivel you spout and that of another certain tit-head on this forum are remarkable. Do you have a brother by chance?

If you call it ignorant and down right drivel that's up to you. I also don't care what you think. I'm voicing my opinion about Moss and I am quite entitled to do that. I'm not blinded by the fact that he is 81 and been around a longtime. I'm looking at his achievements in F1 and they aren't very much.

Instead of resorting to petty name calling to a fellow forum member, perhaps you should try and support your argument? You know, like provide a link to what you claim Schumacher supposedly said about Moss etc

[ArrowsFA1]

I'm looking at his achievements in F1 and they aren't very much.
It depends how you measure those achievements. Certainly, when it comes to F1 world titles I will agree with you to a degree, but then that depends on the comparative value you put on the world championship as a measure of greatness, and what or who you're measuring it against. Also, Sir Stirling Moss's achievements in motor sport are not confined to F1. He excelled in any form of racing he chose and was regarded very highly by his peers. In fact he was the standard by which others measured themselves for quite some time.

Perhaps more important than that is the word respect. The respect Sir Stirling had for his fellow competitors, and the respect he received in return, and still does to this day.

[The Black Knight]

It depends how you measure those achievements. Certainly, when it comes to F1 world titles I will agree with you to a degree, but then that depends on the comparative value you put on the world championship as a measure of greatness, and what or who you're measuring it against. Also, Sir Stirling Moss's achievements in motor sport are not confined to F1. He excelled in any form of racing he chose and was regarded very highly by his peers. In fact he was the standard by which others measured themselves for quite some time.

Perhaps more important than that is the word respect. The respect Sir Stirling had for his fellow competitors, and the respect he received in return, and still does to this day.

Indeed, he was very honourable on the track and I respect that very much as well. This is also why I regard him as a great driver, he was, and there was no denying that. However, his failure to win the title when he had the chance to me signifies a severe flaw and were he a true great he would have won one when he had the opportunity as far as I'm concerned.

If you measure a persons greatness as managing to succeed in every other form of motorsport other than the pinnacle then I guess one could regard him as a great. However, to me you have to show you can compete and win in the pinaccle consistently and win the championship before it can really be considered that you walk with the all time greats. Moss, sadly, never did that.

[Dave B]

It depends how you measure those achievements...<snip>
Exactly, and that's why there's always more to "greatness" than mere statistics. I personally regard Moss and Jackie Stewart as "greater" drivers than Schumacher or Senna, for example, even though in MS's case he is clearly the most successful F1 driver by some margin.

[D-Type]

Gentlemen - PLEASE!

Everybody is entitled to his/her own opinion, but:

(1) If challenged you must be prepared to justify what you say
(2) At all times your responses should be polite - as a guide, use the same language as you would if talking to someone
(3) Personal criticism is not acceptable

Black Knight,
You triggered this argument with a strongly worded criticism of Sir Stirling Moss on the basis of something you claimed he had said about Schumacher being lucky. I asked you to clarify what he had said and you have so far not done so. Before things get totally out of hand can you say exactly what you believe Sir Stirling said.

Everybody else,
Hold your fire until Black knight has made himself clear as to what he means and don't read more into it.

[The Black Knight]

Gentlemen - PLEASE!

Everybody is entitled to his/her own opinion, but:

(1) If challenged you must be prepared to justify what you say
(2) At all times your responses should be polite - as a guide, use the same language as you would if talking to someone
(3) Personal criticism is not acceptable

Black Knight,
You triggered this argument with a strongly worded criticism of Sir Stirling Moss on the basis of something you claimed he had said about Schumacher being lucky. I asked you to clarify what he had said and you have so far not done so. Before things get totally out of hand can you say exactly what you believe Sir Stirling said.

Everybody else,
Hold your fire until Black knight has made himself clear as to what he means and don't read more into it.

I feel I have clarified myself repeatedly in this thread. I'm not sure how you expect me to spell it out more?

Also, I have clearly stated my reasons to why I don't believe Moss to be an all time great. I've clearly stated why I believe him to be an idiot. I've also clearly stated why I believe he has a big ego on him and also why, for a man that never won a world championship, I believe him to be overrated.

I also stated that I respect him for continuing racing all this time and he is a great driver, stated this a few times now, just simply not an all time great.

What more can I clarify really?

[D-Type]

I feel I have clarified myself repeatedly in this thread. I'm not sure how you expect me to spell it out more?

Also, I have clearly stated my reasons to why I don't believe Moss to be an all time great. I've clearly stated why I believe him to be an idiot. I've also clearly stated why I believe he has a big ego on him and also why, for a man that never won a world championship, I believe him to be overrated.

I also stated that I respect him for continuing racing all this time and he is a great driver, stated this a few times now, just simply not an all time great.

What more can I clarify really?
Well, for a start you said


Anyone who said a 7 time WDC was lucky to win his championships is daft. He has lost a plot a bit in recent years especially with regards to Schuey. Maybe it's age though

I have asked you to clarify by saying exactly what Sir Stirling said.

Once you have clarified that, we will possibly be able to move on to some of the other opininions you have expressed but have not substantiated.

[The Black Knight]

Well, for a start you said

I have asked you to clarify by saying exactly what Sir Stirling said.
Once you have clarified that, we will possibly be able to move on to some of the other opininions you have expressed but have not substantiated.
Here, have a read:
Moss slams Schumacher | Sky Sports | Formula 1 | News (http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,12433_6557718,00.html)
Moss, of course, is ignoring the fact that most champions in history have won the title because they have been in the right car. That doesn’t belittle their achievements though like Moss is trying to do to Schumi with comments like these. He had the best car because he pushed the Ferrari team to build that car. He kept them motivated and had a team that worked for him because they knew he would deliver on track. As I said, he broke his balls and earned those titles. You don’t’ win 7 WDC by luck, you win it by sheer determination and skill.

[D-Type]

Here, have a read:
Moss slams Schumacher | Sky Sports | Formula 1 | News (http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,12433_6557718,00.html)
Moss, of course, is ignoring the fact that most champions in history have won the title because they have been in the right car. That doesn’t belittle their achievements though like Moss is trying to do to Schumi with comments like these. He had the best car because he pushed the Ferrari team to build that car. He kept them motivated and had a team that worked for him because they knew he would deliver on track. As I said, he broke his balls and earned those titles. You don’t’ win 7 WDC by luck, you win it by sheer determination and skill.
The word "luck" or "lucky" does not appear anywhere in that article. I agree totally with you that a driver should not normally be considered "lucky" to be in the right car at the right time. Team owners aren't stupid - they want the best drivers they can get. Likewise drivers aren't stupid - they know how good they are and where they fit in the pecking order. The result is that generally the best drivers appear in the best cars. Luck doesn't come into it.

But to dismiss Sir Stirling's whole career as you are doing on the strength of his comments that Schumacher's statistics are misleading and possibly flattering is, shall we say, a rather extreme response.

Off the top of my head I can think of many competitive team pairings: Caracciola and Lang, Ascari and Farina, Fangio and Moss, Clark and Hill, Stewart and Cevert, Andretti and Peterson, Regazzoni and Lauda, Lauda and Prost, Mansell and Piquet, Prost and Mansell, Prost and Rosberg, Prost and Senna, Hamilton and Button, etc. But you won't find "Schumacher and ....." anywhere.

Had Moss said that Schumacher was lucky not to be disqualified for some of his on-track actions, I think there would be a grain of truth.

As to your assertion that as he never won a championship his opinions don't merit consideration - it does not even merit a response.

[The Black Knight]

The word "luck" or "lucky" does not appear anywhere in that article. I agree totally with you that a driver should not normally be considered "lucky" to be in the right car at the right time. Team owners aren't stupid - they want the best drivers they can get. Likewise drivers aren't stupid - they know how good they are and where they fit in the pecking order. The result is that generally the best drivers appear in the best cars. Luck doesn't come into it.
But to dismiss Sir Stirling's whole career as you are doing on the strength of his comments that Schumacher's statistics are misleading and possibly flattering is, shall we say, a rather extreme response.
Off the top of my head I can think of many competitive team pairings: Caracciola and Lang, Ascari and Farina, Fangio and Moss, Clark and Hill, Stewart and Cevert, Andretti and Peterson, Regazzoni and Lauda, Lauda and Prost, Mansell and Piquet, Prost and Mansell, Prost and Rosberg, Prost and Senna, Hamilton and Button, etc. But you won't find "Schumacher and ....." anywhere.
Had Moss said that Schumacher was lucky not to be disqualified for some of his on-track actions, I think there would be a grain of truth.
As to your assertion that as he never won a championship his opinions don't merit consideration - it does not even merit a response.
I’m going to not bother replying to this properly because I’m only going to be repeating everything I said in this thread a couple of times already. Stirling Moss "lucky" comment is quoted there by another user too in this thread. If you want the answer to the questions you pose in this post then go back and read the thread from start to finish and read it properly this time.

[SGWilko]

I’m going to not bother replying to this properly because I’m only going to be repeating everything I said in this thread a couple of times already. Stirling Moss "lucky" comment is quoted there by another user too in this thread. If you want the answer to the questions you pose in this post then go back and read the thread from start to finish and read it properly this time.

But, luck or lucky does not feature in the article to which you supplied a link. Luck and lucky appear in the OED, but that is not what you referred to, and the comment made by D-Type was in direct reference to your link, which did not contain the lucky quote. ;)

[SGWilko]

But you won't find "Schumacher and ....." anywhere.

In both Herbert and Verstappen, Micky had good opponents, but as soon as that became apparent, their ability to use that talent was snuffed out from within the team by not sharing setup info etc.

More th>n?

[The Black Knight]

But, luck or lucky does not feature in the article to which you supplied a link. Luck and lucky appear in the OED, but that is not what you referred to, and the comment made by D-Type was in direct reference to your link, which did not contain the lucky quote. ;)

Yes, however, if D-Type looks through the thread he'll find the quote to which I refer. I couldn't be bothered looking for it when it has already been quoted. Also, I never said that the world luck or lucky was in that link. I simply stated that someone can't be lucky to win 7 WDC. That was in reference to something else Moss said, which, as I say, has already been quoted and I'm not going to repeat myself again. The debate isn't that important to me :D

[ArrowsFA1]

Nigel Roebuck responds to the kind of points made by The Black Knight in his latest Q&As:

The fuss about Stirling (http://www.motorsportmagazine.co.uk/2011/09/05/the-fuss-about-stirling%e2%80%a6/)