Can crashed cars win an Indy car race?

[champcarray]

I re-watched the end of this year's 500 and again noted that several cars drove through JR's debris before the yellow lights came on. My questions:
- Aren't race officials supposed to trigger a yellow whn something obstructs the racing line or puts other drivers in danger?
- If the race order is frozen by a yellow, but the car that caused the yellow crosses the finish line, shouldn't he/she be declared the winner?
- Has a car that created a yellow situation ever won a champ car event?

I havre no problem with the outcome of this year's I500 -- I'm just asking folks who understand the rules better than me to chime in. Thanks.

[00steven]

Dan passed him before the yellow lights came on and the feild was froze. If Dan hadn't passed him though, I still think Dan would have been declared winner because JR couldn't keep proper pace.

[harvick#1]

yep, steve is correct, the green lights were still on when Dan passed JR. although I think its a 50/50 call if the yellow did fly and JR was still leading, because he was fast enough on the straight to keep pace as he still crossed the line in 2nd after he crashed at speed

[SarahFan]

If he was declared second why not first?

And was precedent set in 2002 in regards to when the track goes yellow?

[FormerFF]

If he was declared second why not first?

And was precedent set in 2002 in regards to when the track goes yellow?

If he'd slid across the line before Wheldon got there, no doubt he'd have been the winner. The grey area would have been if the yellow had come out before Wheldon had passed him. In that case, the results are supposed to go back to the previous completed lap.

[SarahFan]

FFF....

But wasnt precedent set in 2002 that the decision wasn't appealable based on the fact the track is immediately yellow upon impact regardless of lights on or flags waived?

*and fwiw im just fine with the outcome.... Just keeping the discussion flowing

[Dr. Krogshöj]

It doesn't matter when the caution came out, Wheldon's pass on Hildebrand was legitimate in either green or yellow conditions.

7.5.3. During the yellow condition, no Car may pass another Car unless:
(...)
b. The other Car is not maintaining the pace lap speed.

But, if Dan hadn't have passed him until the finish line, I think Hildebrand would have been declared winner.

[Marbles]

Field frozen, field reset to previous lap. Utter garbage and the continued NASCARification of all motorsports. These rules exist because of incidents such as Ernie Irvan, who had his series of crash setbacks and possibly shouldn't have been driving in the first place, driving full throttle into the back of a fully crashed and stopped car in the middle of the track at Texas Motor Speedway on a clear and sunny day from about half a lap away -- completely by himself and unmolested by other traffic -- racing back to the caution.

These rules will result in one absolutely obnoxious race result one day at Indy and the very fact that folks nowadays are questioning this years race result are testimony to that.

Imagine Hildebrand was passed by a half dozen cars as he limped towards the finish line. At what point did he not maintain "pace lap speed"?

[FormerFF]

FFF....

But wasnt precedent set in 2002 that the decision wasn't appealable based on the fact the track is immediately yellow upon impact regardless of lights on or flags waived?

*and fwiw im just fine with the outcome.... Just keeping the discussion flowing

My understanding was that the ruling in 2002 was that PT had not passed Helio until after the yellow had come out. The bogus part in that ruling was that PT's team prepared an appeal, and then the IRL declared that the ruling was not open to appeal.

I assume this rule was put in place to prevent racing back to the yellow. They may want to remove that rule for the last 10 laps of a race. If the race is likely to be resumed, then a race to the flag isn't needed. If it's not, let's have a race to the flag since it is for the win.

[SarahFan]

Which leads to the question of at what point down the front stretch did JRs speed drop below pacecar speed?


It doesn't matter when the caution came out, Wheldon's pass on Hildebrand was legitimate in either green or yellow conditions.

7.5.3. During the yellow condition, no Car may pass another Car unless:
(...)
b. The other Car is not maintaining the pace lap speed.

But, if Dan hadn't have passed him until the finish line, I think Hildebrand would have been declared winner.

[SarahFan]

there is a pretty clear photo of PT in the lead with the green light on...... The precedent I speak of was that indycar stated the track was yellow when race control declared it yellow..... And that it takes 3-10 seconds for the lights to change flags to wave etc......

If you watch the video it's looks as if the flagged is looking for a yellow flag as dan crosses the bricks.....

Im fairly certain Brian told barnes don't bother with a protest you won't get the desired result..... But with well over a million dollars difference in prize money I was suprised we didn't see one....... I can tell you that the dozen or folks that hung out after the checkers near us were expecting it


My understanding was that the ruling in 2002 was that PT had not passed Helio until after the yellow had come out. The bogus part in that ruling was that PT's team prepared an appeal, and then the IRL declared that the ruling was not open to appeal.

I assume this rule was put in place to prevent racing back to the yellow. They may want to remove that rule for the last 10 laps of a race. If the race is likely to be resumed, then a race to the flag isn't needed. If it's not, let's have a race to the flag since it is for the win.

[Marbles]

there is a pretty clear photo of PT in the lead with the green light on...... The precedent I speak of was that indycar stated the track was yellow when race control declared it yellow..... And that it takes 3-10 seconds for the lights to change flags to wave etc......

If you watch the video it's looks as if the flagged is looking for a yellow flag as dan crosses the bricks.....

Im fairly certain Brian told barnes don't bother with a protest you won't get the desired result..... But with well over a million dollars difference in prize money I was suprised we didn't see one....... I can tell you that the dozen or folks that hung out after the checkers near us were expecting it

I recall Barry Green asserting that they had irrefutable evidence that PT won the Indy and it would all come out in the wash. I miss Barry Green. As straight as they come IMO. Maybe they threw Team Green a few bucks to let it go.

[SarahFan]

The split chewed up and spat put more than 1 solid team owner...

Carl Russo is another I wish was still around...

But that a discussion for another thread

[markabilly]

I recall Barry Green asserting that they had irrefutable evidence that PT won the Indy and it would all come out in the wash. I miss Barry Green. As straight as they come IMO. Maybe they threw Team Green a few bucks to let it go.

No. Indy ruled PT passed under yellow, but replays showed otherwise.

The first appeal was denied, and then they said, PT could not appeal further becuase of some rule...........something like that


PT was clearly screwed and Helios did not win that Indy 500

[beachbum]

Imagine Hildebrand was passed by a half dozen cars as he limped towards the finish line. At what point did he not maintain "pace lap speed"?According to the timing and scoring reports, JR averaged 134 MPH from the start of the front straight (well after the crash) to start finish, well above pace car speed. He was also down to 184 at the time he got up in the gray passing Kimball, so he had slowed considerably. The cause of the crash will be dissected by internet racing "experts" for some time to come, but even Panther considered it the result of a bad set of circumstances.

The fact that he maintained significant speed after the hit and it was the last lap probably figured into the call not to throw the yellow. What "could" have happened is can be argued over and over again. What did happen was not disputed even by Panther.

Actually, I think JR should be commended for staying in it after the crash to get to the finish line and salvage 2nd. Even though he crashed, I believe he still crossed the finish line before a slowing Kimball got there.

[Anubis]

I think the "pace car speed" issue is only relevant because it happened to close to the line. Had that crash happened going into turn two of the final lap, rather than turn four, would we still be having the same discussion? It would still be the last lap, so in theory he could have maintained a pace for the final few turns, but I don't see how you could then ask the field to form up behind a terminally damaged car as it limps home to take the win. Can't see the other teams swallowing that. I agree it's a quirk in the rules, but I don't see how you can tweak them to contain an extra "oh, unless you can crawl over the finish line in what's left of your car" concession. My personal opinion is that if you bring the yellow out, you're not included in the field being frozen, otherwise we'd have people doing a Piquet Jnr all the time, especially if fuel were an issue.

[Chris R]

I am good with the way things turned out. As somewhat of a counterpoint - if he had made it across the line first without being passed (or impeding those who may have passed him) i would have been good with that being a win.... It is a bit of a weird situation - but if he had the momentum to carry him across the line I would say all is well....

[Dr. Krogshöj]

For the future, it might be wise to change the rule in question because of the ambigous wording. The F1 Sporting Regs are much clearer. They state that you can pass behind the Safety Car if: "If any car slows with an obvious problem."

[beachbum]

For the future, it might be wise to change the rule in question because of the ambigous wording. The F1 Sporting Regs are much clearer. They state that you can pass behind the Safety Car if: "If any car slows with an obvious problem."But do they define what is an "obvious problem"? Everything is open to interpretation, especially on internet forums.

[SarahFan]

I'd say the answer to the opening post is yes...

[call_me_andrew]

Field frozen, field reset to previous lap. Utter garbage and the continued NASCARification of all motorsports. These rules exist because of incidents such as Ernie Irvan, who had his series of crash setbacks and possibly shouldn't have been driving in the first place, driving full throttle into the back of a fully crashed and stopped car in the middle of the track at Texas Motor Speedway on a clear and sunny day from about half a lap away -- completely by himself and unmolested by other traffic -- racing back to the caution.

These rules will result in one absolutely obnoxious race result one day at Indy and the very fact that folks nowadays are questioning this years race result are testimony to that.

Imagine Hildebrand was passed by a half dozen cars as he limped towards the finish line. At what point did he not maintain "pace lap speed"?

What are you talking about? NASCAR didn't start freezing the field until mid-2003. Before then a car was still under green until it passed the flagman. In adopting the frozen field rule, NASCAR was accused of immitating OW.

Now to this matter of when the lights come on, the yellow lights (in an Indycar race at least) are not controlled by race control, but by the flagman. This order was set in 1997 when the flagman gave the green and white flags on lap 200, but the trackside lights were still yellow.

Freezing the field is supposed to protect the cars that are still racing. Even if the yellow came out before the pass, which it did not, Hildebrand was the disabled car that caused the yellow, his position would not be protected.

Let's conduct a thought expiriment to test the usefulness of this rule. Suppose I'm leading a fuel mileage Indy 500 on lap 198. I don't have enough fuel to make it to lap 200 under green, but everyone else has pitted and I have a 40 second lead. So when I start lap 199, I'm going to intentionally come to a dead stop near the outside wall in turn one. Obviously a disabled car requires a yellow flag, so I just wait until the lights turn yellow to move again. Assuming I was first when the yellow came out it doesn't matter if the second place car overtakes me as I gradually come up to pace car speed and limp around for the next two laps. I might get the win stripped for unsportsmanlike conduct, but thanks to the disabled car exemption, this problem will never happen.

[SarahFan]

Andrew....

Is the track yellow when race control calls for a yellow or when the yellow flag flys?

[call_me_andrew]

In this series, when the flag (and by extension lights) flies.

[SarahFan]

In this series, when the flag (and by extension lights) flies.

Then why isn't PTs face on the Borg Warner?

[call_me_andrew]

PT could only produce an image of him being ahead after a yellow light came on. He could not produce a photo of him being ahead with a green light on.

[Mark]

Field frozen, field reset to previous lap. Utter garbage and the continued NASCARification of all motorsports.

That's not a NASCAR thing... Prost won the 1984 Monaco Grand prix thanks to a similar rule.

[Lousada]

Freezing the field is supposed to protect the cars that are still racing. Even if the yellow came out before the pass, which it did not, Hildebrand was the disabled car that caused the yellow, his position would not be protected.
There is nothing in the rules about "disabled car". It says only "cars that can't maintain pacecar speed". Hildebrand was still going at a fair speed towards the finishline, so if the yellow came before the pass he would be the winner.


Let's conduct a thought expiriment to test the usefulness of this rule. Suppose I'm leading a fuel mileage Indy 500 on lap 198. I don't have enough fuel to make it to lap 200 under green, but everyone else has pitted and I have a 40 second lead. So when I start lap 199, I'm going to intentionally come to a dead stop near the outside wall in turn one. Obviously a disabled car requires a yellow flag, so I just wait until the lights turn yellow to move again. Assuming I was first when the yellow came out it doesn't matter if the second place car overtakes me as I gradually come up to pace car speed and limp around for the next two laps. I might get the win stripped for unsportsmanlike conduct, but thanks to the disabled car exemption, this problem will never happen.

Again, there is no disabled car exemption. Your example wouldn't work because you would not maintain pacecar speed (since your standing still). In theory it could work if you stop, bring out the yellow, and resume speed again before the next guy passes you. But still you could be disqualified for other obvious reasons.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Ah I knew the Tracy thing in 02 was going to come up. I saw lots of video, we beat it to death here....and in the end, as much as I am a PT fan, he didn't win. There was no conclusive proof in all the pictures I saw that said he was definatively ahead. I think they were however REAL slow with the yellow this year though. I couldn't believe that the yellow didn't come out seconds after JR hit the wall. Would this have changed a thing? No... I suppose not, but by being slow it shows me that there isn't a quick decision made when the last laps are counted down, there is still a political decision being made by race control. Brian Barnhart HAS to go......

[Marbles]

One of the major reasons for not racing to the flag, as NASCAR used to do, is that the potential of a horrific crash is too great in OW. You don't want a crashed, spun or otherwise disabled car that is going very slowly or stopped to be hit by another car that's flat out. Think Zanardi.

I thought Zanardi spun under green coming out of the pits when Tagliani hit him?

Anyways, I'm happy with the way the race ended and I think that, although racing back to the yellow may be extremely dangerous and totally politically incorrect, it really settles all doubt as to who should be where when the dust settles. I just think it's silly that there is any doubt about this result the way the rules are written. Maintain pace lap speed? What "exactly" is that? 80? 70? 69? 68? 67?


Safety is ultimately in the hands of the licensed adult drivers participating in the sport. Rules makers try and make things safe but I've seen way more people injured in the pits after they introduced pit lane speed limits than before.

[downtowndeco]

For those clamoring that they race back to the green would you feel the same if a car was sideways on the track with the front of the car ripped off with the drivers legs sticking out? If a car was upside down and on fire? If it appeared that the driver was slumped over in his seat? If fuel was leaking from the car? Seriously, would you still want cars racing past the accident trying to improve their positions?

I'm sure you'd answer no to any of these obvious dangerous situations. But in the heat of the moment, as the race is going on, as the crash is happening, race control can not take the risk that one of the above scenarios does not happen. To think they're going to go down the check list to OK a race back to the line ("Driver not hanging out of the car, check. Car not on fire, check. No fuel leaks, check etc etc) is just goofy. They can not take that risk. They always have to error on the side of safety. Always.

To those that think the yellow flag timing at Indy this year was politically motivated, really, give us a break. Race control had to have been as shocked as anyone to see what happened unfold & reacted the best they could, given the extremely unusual circumstances.

[SarahFan]

A car crashing coming out of turn four at Indy unusual?

[Chris R]

It is not often I agree with Downtown - but i suspect he is about right on this one.... everyone is anticipating the end of the race, an exciting end at that I can't imagine that doesn't lead to some brain fade (whether or not you consider that to be acceptable is another matter entirely).... I also think these guys are pretty experienced at judging what is going on - in the split second you witness the crash you more often than not have a pretty good idea of the final outcome and make a judgement call.... I think it was pretty clear right off the bat the car was going to stay on the wall and they made the right call - perhaps not with as much margin for safety as some would like but.....

As far as political motivation - I am not sure what there might be - the story they ended up with is no better or worse than the one they would have had if Hildebrand had won - why make a stupid political decision in that situation....

overall, this thing is what it is and I think there is nothing sinister about it....

[chuck34]

there is still a political decision being made by race control. Brian Barnhart HAS to go......

If this was a political decision then don't you think that the yellow would have flashed on probably even before JR actually hit the wall, and then BB would say the field is frozen when the yellow light is on, etc. I mean what better story would there be than a young American kid winning the biggest race in a car sponsored by the National Guard on Memorial Day?

No, no politics here, just a slow trigger finger. But even if the light would have flashed on immediately, Dan Wheldon would still be the winner since you can pass a disabled car (pace car speed or not).

[downtowndeco]

Pros or not it was the first time in 100 years that the leader of the race had crashed on the last corner of the last lap of the Indy 500. Plus if you were to compare the time of the impact to yellow coming on of this incident vs the previous 100 yellow flags that have come out this would not be so terribly out of the ordinary.

Sheesh. They throw the yellow immediately and some people complain. They wait a breath to see what shakes out some people complain. I'll say this, to my knowledge a driver has never been injured in the IRL/Indycar because the officials were late in throwing the yellow or red flag. With that I'll let their record speak for itself.


That's unacceptable. The people in Race Control are supposed to be pros at what they do. Not stand there gaping at a last lap crash. The lives of all of the rest of the drivers on the track are in their hands. The switch for the yellow lights should have been thrown immediately on impact with the wall.

[Bob Riebe]

That's unacceptable. The people in Race Control are supposed to be pros at what they do. Not stand there gaping at a last lap crash. The lives of all of the rest of the drivers on the track are in their hands. The switch for the yellow lights should have been thrown immediately on impact with the wall.
As downtown said, they throw when they think it is proper, not before or after, regardless of what arm-chair race officials think is proper.
Racing is a dangerous sport, any one who has problems with that should stay away.

[SarahFan]

Was a car into the wall not a proper time?

[SarahFan]

Oooops....reality kicks in

People who actually go to races trump those that dont again....and again.... And again

[Bob Riebe]

Since I am not an "arm chair" race official, but a real one I can say that there is no question, on an oval, the proper time is immediately on contact with the wall.How long have you worked for the Indianapolis Speedway or Indycar?

As you seem to have problems with the some realities of racing, maybe you are in the wrong job.

[Bob Riebe]

Was a car into the wall not a proper time?The people who were in charge of the race decided when was proper, apparently Starter was not in charge.

[downtowndeco]

Probably true 99.9 % of the time. But on the biggest race day of the year, in the biggest race, on the last corner of the last lap when the leader crashes I don't mind that they took a few seconds to catch their breath & assess the situation. I for one am glad that there are humans sitting in race control & not robots or a computer program that determines when a yellow should be deployed. What next? Replace the umpires in baseball? The referees in football? That tiny bit of human element helps keep things interesting.

While I don't disagree that we should always try and make things safer, I think the IRL/Indycar's safety record in regards to when they throw a caution speaks for itself.


Since I am not an "arm chair" race official, but a real one I can say that there is no question, on an oval, the proper time is immediately on contact with the wall.

[downtowndeco]

But the reality of the situation is;

Did the officials throw a yellow? Yes.

Did the first crash cause a second crash? No.

Has an Indycar driver ever been injured because Indycar officials have been slow in throwing a yellow or red flag? No.

While the Indycar offcials are not perfect (they are, after all, human), I'd put their judgement calls against anyone out there.

Enough from me. It's JMO. Cheers.



Would you say that if the crashed car had come off the wall into Weldon's line causing a much bigger crash?
Would you say that if debris from the crashed car cut down the tire of another car causing an even bigger crash?
Just because nothing bad happened in this case, it DOES NOT automatically follow that it was a correct call. Had something awful happened, every one of you would have been asking for someone's head on a platter.

Had this been a road course, with much lower speeds, I wouldn't quibble over it. Indy, or any other oval with average speeds over 200 mph, is an entirely different story.

[Marbles]

Would you say that if the crashed car had come off the wall into Weldon's line causing a much bigger crash?


Exactly!

So it's not really a hard and fast rule. It's a judgement call? A convenience, possibly? Perhaps a greasy stick?

[Bob Riebe]

Would you say that if the crashed car had come off the wall into Weldon's line causing a much bigger crash?
Would you say that if debris from the crashed car cut down the tire of another car causing an even bigger crash?
Just because nothing bad happened in this case, it DOES NOT automatically follow that it was a correct call. Had something awful happened, every one of you would have been asking for someone's head on a platter.

Had this been a road course, with much lower speeds, I wouldn't quibble over it. Indy, or any other oval with average speeds over 200 mph, is an entirely different story.
IF
IF
If the sky is falling....

Get over it.
Again, how long have you worked at Indy?
If you do not you are just another arm-chair official.

We can debate why, or why not, some thing was or was not done, but to say they who were there should have done x,y, or z is asinine.
If you do work at Indy for heavens sake tell why what was done, was done, and why you disagree?

[Chris R]

If the trajectory of this accident was such that it was going to immediately cause a secondary accident, I doubt delaying the yellow a few seconds would make a difference - the events were already set in motion.... If there was a pack of cars bearing down on the scene, I am not sure a quicker yellow would have helped either - it may have actually caused an accident by causing cars to "check up"....

There is a good deal of judgement in these situations and you cannot change the fact that racing is inherently risky...I am not sure throwing a yellow immediately upon contact is necessarily the safest thing to do - that is where judgement comes in... it is probably the best thing 7 or 8 times out of 10 but a few of those times it may be best to let events unfold for a few more seconds (and let the drivers use their skills to avoid danger) and not potentially create a situation that is just as dangerous as the one you are trying to avoid.... (I imagine a driver in close proximity to an incident is going to the "right" thing by reacting to what he or she sees happening on the track more often than a driver reacting to the secondary yellow light on the dashboard)... I want the drivers to be safe but I also trust their skills and judgement to keep themselves safe.....

As far as whether or not an Indycar driver has ever been injured because of a yellow or red flag being delayed - I would be surprised if it hasn't happened in the past 100 years - but it is certainly not common.....

I think it all gets down to who do you have the most faith in, the officials(use judgement to throw a yellow, they will be right), the rule makers(the is no judgement in these situations - the rules say throw the flag regardless), or the drivers (a little reliance on both officials and rules to give the driver the safe environment and "tools" they need to make good/safe on track decisions)..... I choose the drivers (but I am only a fan with no direct experience in these things - so I could be wrong)

[chuck34]

Chris you said pretty much what I was going to say. The couple of seconds "delay" in deploying the yellow wouldn't make any difference. If you are close enough to the accident that it is going to effect you in those couple of seconds, I would hope that your eyes are actually open and you can see the car spinning or whatever. The yellow light/flag is really more for the guys who are too far from the accident to see it happening, and need to know to slow down. At least on an oval that is the case. A road course where you can't always see over a hill/round the bend, yellows may be more needed imediately.

[Bob Riebe]

He who argues with someone who knows not of what they speak is the biggest fool of all, so I'll just drop out of this thread. You may continue to pontificate as the subject matter expert if you wish.Als posters here, who have not worked at the Speedway, know as much about the true detailed nature of the Indianapolis track as you do, which is between none, and next to none.
We have opinions, and that is it.
Sorry if questioning your self-importance ego bugs you, but as you said, you know not of what you speak, but I do not think of you as a fool. Only a slightly inflated ego.

[SarahFan]

While it's only my opinion.... And I have never officiated or raced at IMS..

But if I'm traveling 220-230 entering turn 3 and a racer hits the wAll in turn 4 and im going to be in the immediate area within se onds I'd appreciate the yellow flying sooner rather than under any and all circumstances

Maybe that's just me ...... But I'd bet dollars to donuts all the competitors last mOnth would agree with me

[Bob Riebe]

While it's only my opinion.... And I have never officiated or raced at IMS..

But if I'm traveling 220-230 entering turn 3 and a racer hits the wAll in turn 4 and im going to be in the immediate area within se onds I'd appreciate the yellow flying sooner rather than under any and all circumstances

Maybe that's just me ...... But I'd bet dollars to donuts all the competitors last mOnth would agree with me
I certainly think, Hildebrand, might think so.

[SarahFan]

Well what about you bob?

Would you rather they thru the yellow sooner or later? What do you think your wife and kids would think?

[Bob Riebe]

Well what about you bob?

Would you rather they thru the yellow sooner or later? What do you think your wife and kids would think?
I was never fortunate enough to be able to drive at Indy, so such thoughts are moot.

[SarahFan]

Moot?

No it's not!

[SarahFan]

Gotta say bob.... I've been posting here for years..


And that just might be the weakest most chicken scratch post I have read

[Bob Riebe]

Gotta say bob.... I've been posting here for years..


And that just might be the weakest most chicken scratch post I have read
Not as chicken scratch for intelligence as your question.
The thread is not about me, and as I do not drive Indy cars, to ask me what I would do, is asinine on its best day.
But it does not take much thought to see I am not the chicken-little, the-sky-is-falling type.

[SarahFan]

Makes me wonder why your even here actually ....

It certainly clear your not interested in discussion... Only letting folks know how special you believe yourself to be

All the best Bob, you and downtown should have some intense conversations in the future

[Bob Riebe]

Makes me wonder why your even here actually ....

It certainly clear your not interested in discussion... Only letting folks know how special you believe yourself to be

All the best Bob, you and downtown should have some intense conversations in the futureI am not here to speak about me.
I cannot fathom why what I or any other poster would do, has to do with what tracks, sanctions or other racing forces are actually doing.

[garyshell]

Als posters here, who have not worked at the Speedway, know as much about the true detailed nature of the Indianapolis track as you do, which is between none, and next to none.
We have opinions, and that is it.
Sorry if questioning your self-importance ego bugs you, but as you said, you know not of what you speak, but I do not think of you as a fool. Only a slightly inflated ego.


Tell us again how many tracks YOU have participated in officiating.

Gary

[SoCalPVguy]

I am of the opinion that a car sliding along the wall that crosses the finish line after 200 laps in front of all other cars is the winner.

Then again ... LOL... remember poor Ralph DePalma (no of course you don't, it was in 1919 or something like that... but like me- you might have read about it)- he jumped out and pushed his car over the finish line but was disqualified because the car did not cross "under its own power"...

So..... devils advocate... if a car "slides" along the wall after crashing, is it ... "Under its own power" ??????

[Bob Riebe]

Tell us again how many tracks YOU have participated in officiating.

Gary
Gary can you read, did you read what I wrote to Sarah? Same answer goes to you.
Else wise your point is?

Any one here who has been in race control at Indy, PLEASE inform us, so we can get first hand knowledge.
Gary, are we to assume you have?

If this were about road racing, I assume Starter was/is one. What he would say about how they flag-off a road race would carry first-hand weight.

[gm99]

The thing I'm wondering about is whether a (winning) car doesn't have to pass post-race scrutineering? How do you make sure a mangled car complies with all the technical regulations (ride height, wing rigidity and the like)? What if a wheel is ripped off - I'm sure there's something in the rulebook about an Indycar having to have four wheels.

[Bob Riebe]

You are assuming facts not in evidence. Why do you believe I've never been involved with oval racing? Though by preferance I like road racing a little better.
If you have which tracks?
I was once part owner and a mechanic on a dirt-track stock car. The ONLY thing I could give for advice, to any currently thinking of getting involved, is you had better have time and a LOT of greenbacks burning a hole in your pocket.

Indy is absolutely unique, as is Pocono, among ovals.
If you worked there your insite to its pluses and faults would be first hand knowledge.
Working at Pocono cannot be transferred to Indy as what works on one does not work at the other heads-up.

To say, in an absolute manner, what should or should not be done, when one does not have first hand knowledge of the item being discussed, is an opinion, but it carries no more weight than other non-firsthand knowledge opinions supporting or rejecting that opinion.
If you had worked at the old Ontario Speedway, that was similar enough, that such knowledge would have an insight one could get nowhere else.

This horse has been beat to death, so this is the last I will speak of it.

[champcarray]

Does anyone know which cars receive a post-race inspection? Is it all cars finishing in the points?

[garyshell]

Gary can you read, did you read what I wrote to Sarah? Same answer goes to you.
Else wise your point is?

Any one here who has been in race control at Indy, PLEASE inform us, so we can get first hand knowledge.
Gary, are we to assume you have?

If this were about road racing, I assume Starter was/is one. What he would say about how they flag-off a road race would carry first-hand weight.

Oh I read it all right, but you seem quick to demean other folks OPINIONS because they have never officiated while also equally quick to express your own without the same credentials you require of others.

Gary