Wirth Virgin Split

[shazbot]

Time for a model program then...........
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/91924

[Sonic]

Not unexpected but still a shame for Wirth. I guess Newey was right to say cfd is ten years away from being able to go it alone.

[DexDexter]

Not unexpected but still a shame for Wirth. I guess Newey was right to say cfd is ten years away from being able to go it alone.

Not just Newey, all the armchair enthusiasts over here said the same and surprise surprise, we were right. They should have used a wind tunnel, I'm sure the car would be a lot better than it is now.

[SGWilko]

It's a shame, but sadly not unexpected.

CFD is the way to go, but is not ready yet on its own. I think a lot of the top teams are using the flow-vis paint in conjunction with the wind tunnel/track running to validate the output as suggested by the computer results. This way they can feed more and more data from the track into their database so that the CFD results become more and more accurate. It's a while off being there yet though IMVHO

[Robinho]

considering they've only been at it in F1 for 1 and half seasons i don't think its been a disaster by any means. They've not been the slowest team, they've not failed to qualify since the 107% rule has returned. As an experiment into the ability to use solely CFD i'd say it was a pretty successful one. It takes a long time to learn and build the speed to move off the back of the grid, unless you buy it in direct in terms of parts or personnel. They were arguably on the steepest learning curve and the timescales unfortunately have not filled the backers with confidence. Its a pity to lose the Wirth team as at least it injected some variety into the approaches and i do think they would have been able to improve as they refined the model and the processes. The quickest way to get to the point where CFD is a viable and competitive alternative to the traditional approach of the other teams would be to stick with it in comeptition with an F1 budget and learn how to make it better.

[RS]

I find this news a shame. The car really wasn't that bad considering the teams limited resources. Not really far off Lotus who bought a Red Bull rear end for this year.

I hope the future direction they take will keep them as a "real" team rather than buying bits of other peoples cars or outsourcing everything like Hispania.

I also find Branson's lack of involvement a dissapointment. This doesn't really seem like a "Virgin" team to me in anything but name.

[wedge]

Not just Newey, all the armchair enthusiasts over here said the same and surprise surprise, we were right. They should have used a wind tunnel, I'm sure the car would be a lot better than it is now.

Even windtunnels aren't all they're cracked up to be. Isn't it rumoured that Ferrari's wind tunnel needs recalibration and is the cause of the development woes?

Nonetheless it was an interesting experiment.

Is it because the technology for CFD is behind? Is the rate of development and therefore competition is far greater in F1 than Le Mans style racing? Does Virgin Racing/Wirth have the personnel for F1 level?

[DexDexter]

considering they've only been at it in F1 for 1 and half seasons i don't think its been a disaster by any means. They've not been the slowest team, they've not failed to qualify since the 107% rule has returned. As an experiment into the ability to use solely CFD i'd say it was a pretty successful one. It takes a long time to learn and build the speed to move off the back of the grid, unless you buy it in direct in terms of parts or personnel. They were arguably on the steepest learning curve and the timescales unfortunately have not filled the backers with confidence. Its a pity to lose the Wirth team as at least it injected some variety into the approaches and i do think they would have been able to improve as they refined the model and the processes. The quickest way to get to the point where CFD is a viable and competitive alternative to the traditional approach of the other teams would be to stick with it in comeptition with an F1 budget and learn how to make it better.

I don't know, Lotus, for example, leapfrogged them by seconds over the winter and Hispania, despite all their troubles to just put a car on the grid, is really close to them.

[Robinho]

I don't know, Lotus, for example, leapfrogged them by seconds over the winter and Hispania, despite all their troubles to just put a car on the grid, is really close to them.

the same well funded Lotus, with a number of respected F1 engineers such as Gascoyne, 2 race winning drivers and a bunch of Red Bull/Renault bits on?

Don't forget Hispania also have the back end of the Williams strapped to their dog of a chassis.

Virgin genuinely are still going it alone, and are comfortabley ahead of Hispania on pace and for all of Lotus's improvements, they are still generally a chunk of time away from the back of the established teams.

The fact remains that the CFD method has resulted in a car that is good enough to take its place in the F1 grid, qualifies within the 107% and in only its second season, on what is probably the lowest budget in F1. The experiment was a success in my eyes, and is just the tip of the iceberg, the sheer amount of learning they have to do with their system and design process is immense and they are obviously not far from the right track. I think its a real pity its not been given another couple of years to see the benefits start to come through.

[jens]

Virgin wasn't going to be a significant force with Wirth and CFD-only approach, but I am not sure this reshuffle solves much as long as... Branson doesn't want to invest into the team properly. I have heard their budget isn't really much different from HRT's (35-40M &#8364 ;) . Regardless of who the technical director is, in such financial state this team is never going to make an impact.

[steveaki13]

I think Virgin have done and are doing OK. As said before with the CFD design its going to take a while to perfect it and get ahead of designers working for decades.

Are they planning to still continue in this direction or are they planning to revert to a more tradtional development system.

[shazbot]

Virgin certainly do run on a limited budget, but the decision not to start with a model program was a mistake. A model program need not cost the earth, and in conjunction with a strong CFD base is what everyone else does - why tie one hand behind your back? The beauty of a model is that changes can be made very quickly, and there's an awfull lot to be said for having a physical model of the car to look at. I've spent hours lying on my back underneath wind tunnel models with some of the very best aerodynamicists who tend to make changes 'on the fly'. Adding a wax or clay fillet or a radius takes just a moment and you have the results a couple of minutes later. You just can't do this with a 2D computer screen. As high tech as F1 is there's still development done with 'tin and tape' which often leads to new avenues to explore. Many times I remember sitting in the tunnel late at night with a very well know aerodynamicist as he would utter the dreaded "just one more run" which would inevitably lead to another hour or two as we would cut and shut our way to some usefull gains (not all the time!). All the top teams have their own tunnels and well staffed model shops, but a high quality 50% scale model can be done on a budget and tested in commercial tunnels - I know because I've done it.

[ioan]

Not just Newey, all the armchair enthusiasts over here said the same and surprise surprise, we were right.

:up: ;)

[ioan]

CFD is the way to go, but is not ready yet on its own.

CFD is based on mathematical models that need to be validated in real life or in a scale wind tunnel at least (these also need to be validated on track anyway). It is impossible to use CFD only based on theory alone.

Truth is that lack of in season testing is not good for them at all.
Lack of funding is making it even worse.

[ArrowsFA1]

The fact remains that the CFD method has resulted in a car that is good enough to take its place in the F1 grid, qualifies within the 107% and in only its second season, on what is probably the lowest budget in F1. The experiment was a success in my eyes, and is just the tip of the iceberg, the sheer amount of learning they have to do with their system and design process is immense and they are obviously not far from the right track. I think its a real pity its not been given another couple of years to see the benefits start to come through.
+1 :up:


CFD is based on mathematical models that need to be validated in real life or in a scale wind tunnel at least (these also need to be validated on track anyway). It is impossible to use CFD only based on theory alone.

Truth is that lack of in season testing is not good for them at all.
Lack of funding is making it even worse.
Nick Wirth has already shown that CFD alone works. Obviously the ALMS is a different series to F1 but the success of the Acura shows that CFD can do the job.

I agree with you that the lack of testing, and Virgin's limited funding has made things very difficult for the team, but that is one of the reasons why they chose the CFD approach.

I don't consider Wirth, or his use of CFD, to be a failure. If, in a few months time, Virgin have taken big steps up the grid then that argument could be made, but time will tell.

[DexDexter]

the same well funded Lotus, with a number of respected F1 engineers such as Gascoyne, 2 race winning drivers and a bunch of Red Bull/Renault bits on?

Don't forget Hispania also have the back end of the Williams strapped to their dog of a chassis.

Virgin genuinely are still going it alone, and are comfortabley ahead of Hispania on pace and for all of Lotus's improvements, they are still generally a chunk of time away from the back of the established teams.

The fact remains that the CFD method has resulted in a car that is good enough to take its place in the F1 grid, qualifies within the 107% and in only its second season, on what is probably the lowest budget in F1. The experiment was a success in my eyes, and is just the tip of the iceberg, the sheer amount of learning they have to do with their system and design process is immense and they are obviously not far from the right track. I think its a real pity its not been given another couple of years to see the benefits start to come through.

We've obviously been watching different races. The fact that Lotus is not doing well compared to the established teams is beside the point. As I wrote, they're suddenly several seconds a lap faster than Virgin and they were quite equal last year. One is using a wind tunnel and the other one isn't. The gap between Hispania and Virgin has also shrunk despite Hispania's problems over the winter time. Virgin had more time to develop their car for this year than Hispania but it didn't help them at all. CFD is not ready yet.

[Robinho]

We've obviously been watching different races. The fact that Lotus is not doing well compared to the established teams is beside the point. As I wrote, they're suddenly several seconds a lap faster than Virgin and they were quite equal last year. One is using a wind tunnel and the other one isn't. The gap between Hispania and Virgin has also shrunk despite Hispania's problems over the winter time. Virgin had more time to develop their car for this year than Hispania but it didn't help them at all. CFD is not ready yet.


My point is still valid, I know Lotus are quicker, but they probably have something in the region of twice the budget and more experienced technical and driving teams. Yet despite this the only progress they are making is to still be behind the rest of the field albeit closer. That shows that even with the techs, the Renault bits, the wind tunnel, the money and the drivers F1 is incredibly difficult. Virgin with their CFD approach have been competitive with the rest of the new teams.

CFD might not be ready yet to make a winning car, but they have proved without a shadow of doubt that it is good enough to be in F1, and they are at the bottom of a massive, steep improvement curve, not near the top of a much shallower one. It would have taken time, and most likely a bunch of money, but the CFD approach would only have improved from where the are now, and where they are now is a pretty decent start

[ioan]

+1 :up:


Nick Wirth has already shown that CFD alone works. Obviously the ALMS is a different series to F1 but the success of the Acura shows that CFD can do the job.

I agree with you that the lack of testing, and Virgin's limited funding has made things very difficult for the team, but that is one of the reasons why they chose the CFD approach.

I don't consider Wirth, or his use of CFD, to be a failure. If, in a few months time, Virgin have taken big steps up the grid then that argument could be made, but time will tell.

Believe me I never tried to imply that CFD is a failure.
I spent many years of my life working with FEM (finite element methods) which are similar to CFD in that they are based on mathematical models, and I know how incredibly useful these advanced tools are when it comes to making up ground against practicing. However every now and then the numerical results need to be compared and hopefully backed up by real world tests otherwise the direction to take mighty be completely wrong.

[ioan]

My point is still valid, I know Lotus are quicker, but they probably have something in the region of twice the budget and more experienced technical and driving teams. Yet despite this the only progress they are making is to still be behind the rest of the field albeit closer. That shows that even with the techs, the Renault bits, the wind tunnel, the money and the drivers F1 is incredibly difficult. Virgin with their CFD approach have been competitive with the rest of the new teams.

CFD might not be ready yet to make a winning car, but they have proved without a shadow of doubt that it is good enough to be in F1, and they are at the bottom of a massive, steep improvement curve, not near the top of a much shallower one. It would have taken time, and most likely a bunch of money, but the CFD approach would only have improved from where the are now, and where they are now is a pretty decent start

Parting ways with Wirth will leave Virgin with more or less no knowledge to build a race car. Strange move. They should have tried to help Wirth, by supplementing the team's funds for some wind tunnel testing, instead of cutting him off.

[Roamy]

He obviously wasn't writh a sh!t - Where is sergio rinland when you need him????