Moto GP Round 4 - Le Mans

[Rod Richardson]

FP2
Moto GP
1. Stoner Honda
2. Simoncelli Honda
3. Pedrose Honda
4. Hayden Ducati
5. Lorenzo Yamaha
6. Divisioso Honda
7. Edwards Yamaha
9. Aoyama Honda
10.Rossi Ducati

Moto 2
1.Bradl
2. Luthi
3. Corsi
4. Cluzel
5. Iannone
6 .Marquez
7. De Angelis
8 .Takahashi
9. Esparago
10.Simon

125cc
1. Terol Apr
2. Vasquez Derbi
3. Cortese Apr
4. fAUBEL Apr
5. Folger Apr
6. Salom Apr
7. Vinales Apr
8.Zarco Derbi
9. Moncayo Apr
10. Martin Apr

[Allyc85]

Stoner looks ridiculously fast so far, while the Doctor is still struggling! good time for Hayden in P4 though :)

[NinjaMaster]

Wow, I see this round is doubly important! :D

Stoner definately looks the goods but the others have caught up some and will probably get even closer on Saturday. The Ducati looks like it hasn't changed a bit despite continual public spruiking of even change improving the machine - Stoners pre-season comments about the Italian manufacturer appear to be vindicated. Simoncelli may well prove to be Casey's biggest threat, for the race win and for his safety! Hopefully he keeps it upright and his pace translates in a result and a good race.

AND PLEASE, NO RAIN!!!

[Rod Richardson]

Quakifying

Moto GP
1, Stoner Honda
2. Simoncelli Honda
3. Dovisioso Honda
4. Pedrose Honda
5 Lorenzo Yamaha
6. Crutchlow Yamaha
7. Edwards Yamaha
8. Spies Yamaha
9, Rossi Ducati
10 Hayden Ducati

Moto 2
1, Bradl
2. Luthi
3. Takahashi
4. Esparago
5. Redding
6. Marquez
7. Corsi
8. Iannone
9, Simon
10 Aegerter

125cc

1, Terol Apr
2. Faubel Apr
3. Vinales Apr
4. Cortese Apr
5. Folger Apr
6. Zarco Derbi
7. Martin Apr
8.Gadea Apr
9, Vasquez Derbi
10 Salom Apr

[Allyc85]

Moto GP
1, Stoner Honda
2. Simoncelli Honda
3. Dovisioso Honda
4. Pedrose Honda
5 Lorenzo Yamaha
6. Crutchlow Yamaha :D :D :D
7. Edwards Yamaha
8. Spies Yamaha
9, Rossi Ducati
10 Hayden Ducati

[NinjaMaster]

VINALES!!!! Go you good thing! :up:

[MrMetro]

Controversial warm up: http://www.motogp.com/en/news/2011/warm+up+motogp+report+le+mans+gp

[Allyc85]

As much as I admire his speed im going off Casey more and more! Grow up son its only warm up and lashing out at a rider on track is ridiculous! I also read that at the Estoril test he waited for Rossi on track and then intentionally blocked him, again ridiculous!

[Ranger]

Punching the guy on the bike at ~100km/h was an idiotic brain snap. Was Casey thinking??

You can't do that, even if Randy was at fault for slowing on the racing line.

[NinjaMaster]

Marquez, you beauty! Finally finished a race and did it in style! I found it hard to know who to barrack for, I liked all the top riders. Wanted Bradl to slip back for a closer title chase but wanted him on the box as reward for being fast all weekend. Was a great race.


As much as I admire his speed im going off Casey more and more! Grow up son its only warm up and lashing out at a rider on track is ridiculous! I also read that at the Estoril test he waited for Rossi on track and then intentionally blocked him, again ridiculous!

I didn't see what Randy did but I'd prefer that Stoner kept his annoyance to himself, unless it's particularly stupid and/or dangerous. At the Estoril test, Casey explained that he made a mistake, was following Rossi busy looking at the Ducati to see how it was performing with new parts and missed his breaking marker.

*Added: just saw the DePuniet incident and I think Casey's actions were perfectly justifiable in this situation. Randy was dawdling along and swerved onto the raceline causing Stoner to brake hard to avoid incident. It was dangerous and Randy should've been more awake.

[Ranger]

Simoncelli just proved Lorenzo's point by possibly injuring Pedrosa.

Unimpressive. :down:

[Ranger]

Broken right collarbone for Pedrosa.

EDIT: Doesn't look so black and white in hindsight. Looks more unfortunate than anything.

[Daniel]

If you look from the reverse angle it looks definitely to be Simoncelli's fault, rode clean around and then into him. From the front I thought the decision was unfair but I think it was fair now.

Pity for Pedrosa :( Broken collarbone. Good to see Lorenzo get mugged more than once :D

[Ranger]

If you look from the reverse angle it looks definitely to be Simoncelli's fault, rode clean around and then into him. From the front I thought the decision was unfair but I think it was fair now.

Pity for Pedrosa :( Broken collarbone. Good to see Lorenzo get mugged more than once :D

The thing that blurs it is that Pedrosa stood the bike up quite early in the corner.

[Daniel]

The thing that blurs it is that Pedrosa stood the bike up quite early in the corner.
Perhaps, but I thought the bike stood up because he got hit?

[Ranger]

Perhaps, but I thought the bike stood up because he got hit?

I was thinking that there may have been 2 hits but I didn't see a clear enough replay.

If there was a hit that made him stand the bike up then Simoncelli's penalty was justified.

[NinjaMaster]

For mine, it's Simoncelli's fault. Pedrosa stood it up when Simoncelli laid it over right in front of him and left Dani nowhere to go. Sucks for Dani, he was finally getting healed.

Flawless race by Stoner, really made use of his practice pace. I though Marco would get closer in the early stages. The battle for 4th/2nd was a beaut. Lorenzo was on edge and pushed a little past it to cost him a chance of the podium. Rossi and Ducati are kind of improving and had a great fight with Dovi who I was impressed with his mental toughness to not crack under the pressure. Not sure what it says about the field that Simoncelli could run off the track, recieve a ride-through penalty and still finish 5th...

[MrJan]

I don't really attribute fault in that one. Simoncelli put a hard move in but Pedrosa would have seen him and for some reason stood the bike up. It's certainly harsh to give a ride through, especially when Rossi got nothing for what was a much clearer incident at Jerez.

[Allyc85]

I agree with the above really. Simoncelli must have been braking on the outside at the very latest point possible to make the corner which he did, but then Pedrosa sits the bike up like he wasnt going to make it. My feeling at the time was a racing incident, and I cant help but feel that all of Lorenzos crying about Simoncelli got him the penalty as we have seen as bad, if not worse moves go without penalty! Its gutting for Danny though as he was looking very strong, coming back from his injury and is now back to square one again with another shoulder injury.

Also disappointing was Cal crashing out when pushing hard to pass Spies, but I guess these things happen when you are on the very edge and chasing the very best riders in the world.

[Allyc85]

*Added: just saw the DePuniet incident and I think Casey's actions were perfectly justifiable in this situation. Randy was dawdling along and swerved onto the raceline causing Stoner to brake hard to avoid incident. It was dangerous and Randy should've been more awake.

Seriously?! You think its ok to punch people at that kind of speed, what kind of example would it set for the future?! We would have riders going round kicking and punching all the time after being blocked if the officials didnt do anything!

[AndyRAC]

Simoncelli has form for knocking other riders off - Bautista and Barbera in 250cc. A harsh penalty, however, I do agree that if it was a certain other rider, nothing would have happened.

[markabilly]

Simoncelli has form for knocking other riders off - Bautista and Barbera in 250cc. A harsh penalty, however, I do agree that if it was a certain other rider, nothing would have happened.

NOT harsh enough.

Penalty was a joke, esp. where this rider has a very long BAD history. Needs to sit out a race, since he has now run off at the mouth that it was not his fault..

No excuse for it, none.

And this is not F1. Driver making pass always has the responsibility to make it safe. PERIOD

Sit him down at least one race.

When I saw it I said going to be wreck, then marco clips Dani's front wheel trying not to go down. The accident was destined to happy when marco braked too late, got in front, out of control and by then going too slow, becuase he can not get on the gas being out of place, so Dani is froced to stay off the gas, stands it up as his front is clipped(more of a fear reaction as he knows he will be going down one way or the other, then a plan, and down he goes.

[CNR]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/91431

De Puniet said it had been a simple misunderstanding and he had been trying to get out of the way at the time.

"I'm sorry about what happened this morning with Casey," he said. "I was adjusting the brake, thinking that I had no one behind.

"Then, suddenly, I saw Casey coming behind me at full speed, I tried to leave the road to him, but unfortunately I went where he was pointing.

"I'm sorry and even if his reaction was not the best, for me it's all put in the past and I have nothing against him."

[Corny]

Poor poor Dani Pedrosa :(

Injured again, not his faulth.... Misses the next race maybe? Could lose him hope on this year's championship

[Daniel]

Seriously?! You think its ok to punch people at that kind of speed, what kind of example would it set for the future?! We would have riders going round kicking and punching all the time after being blocked if the officials didnt do anything!

Yeah, it definitely wasn't acceptable behaviour at all. That said, Stoner apologised and de Puniet admitted that he got in his way.

As for Simoncelli, I'm with Markabilly on this one, it just wasn't acceptable at all. If you look at the reverse angle he just rides clean around Pedrosa and into him.

I feel that the only sufficient penalty for an incident like that is a race ban, but stewards never seem to have the balls to deal out a race ban :rolleyes:

[MrJan]

I feel that the only sufficient penalty for an incident like that is a race ban, but stewards never seem to have the balls to deal out a race ban :rolleyes:

:eek: You must be joking! It's not like he punted him from behind, he just got him on the brakes and went for the corner, if Dani hadn't picked the bike up on the apex then it would've been fine. It was a hard move, I can't deny that, but a race ban? If that's the case then Lorenzo can get one for his move on Dovi, that was equally as dangerous but just didn't have the consequences, and Stoner can certainly get one for punching a fellow rider on track.

[Daniel]

From where I was stood, Pedrosa stood his bike up because he got hit. I also though Lorenzo's move was worthy of a ride through. I think both moves were overly ambitious.

[NinjaMaster]

Seriously?! You think its ok to punch people at that kind of speed, what kind of example would it set for the future?! We would have riders going round kicking and punching all the time after being blocked if the officials didnt do anything!

For goodness sake, he didn't go all Wayne Maxwell and try king hit him, he gave him a 'wake-up slap'. Anyways, "justifiable" was probably my wrong choice of words, should've said "understandable". I really like De Puniet but sitting mid-track 100km/h slower with his mind not on the job at hand then swerving onto the race line to avoid a following rider is vastly more dangerous.

Lorenzo is a bit fortunate for the Simoncelli incident, so much so that even Rossi's dig at him as gone pretty much unnoticed. His pass on Dovi was super-tough and really reeked of desperation. A Simoncelli supporting friend of mine messaged me "Lorenzo, you are clearly a massive hypocrite when it comes to close passing! you sook :) " which was later followed by "Ok Simoncelli, after just taking out Pedrosa, I can't stick up for you now mate ;) ". I laughed. :D

[MrJan]

From where I was stood, Pedrosa stood his bike up because he got hit. I also though Lorenzo's move was worthy of a ride through. I think both moves were overly ambitious.

He may have been brushed, but the main contact that caused the crash (ie the wheels touching) was after Dani stood the bike up, if he'd stayed on his line then I think it would've been okay. I still think the ride through was a bit harsh, mainly because of precendent of us seeing far worse in the past that doesn't get punished. If Lorenzo hadn't kicked up such a fuss then we wouldn't be in this situation, and if you're going to punish dangerous riding then shirley Randy De Puniet has got to be in for some sort of quiet word, he spends more time on his back than Lindsay Lohan.

[patnicholls]

For me: an optimistic move by Marco and Dani was very unlucky. I'm not Marco's biggest fan by any means but it wasn't worthy of a penalty - this isn't the 2008 Formula 1 season after all.

[NinjaMaster]

He may have been brushed, but the main contact that caused the crash (ie the wheels touching) was after Dani stood the bike up, if he'd stayed on his line then I think it would've been okay. I still think the ride through was a bit harsh, mainly because of precendent of us seeing far worse in the past that doesn't get punished. If Lorenzo hadn't kicked up such a fuss then we wouldn't be in this situation, and if you're going to punish dangerous riding then shirley Randy De Puniet has got to be in for some sort of quiet word, he spends more time on his back than Lindsay Lohan.

I think Pedrosa had two options; a) hit the brakes, stand it up and try to avoid collision or b) crank into the corner and lowside taking both riders out. In hindsight, the latter would've been a better outcome (less likely to bust collarbone) but the former is the natural instinct.
And props on the RdP/Lilo comment. :up:

[Daniel]

I think Pedrosa had two options; a) hit the brakes, stand it up and try to avoid collision or b) crank into the corner and lowside taking both riders out. In hindsight, the latter would've been a better outcome (less likely to bust collarbone) but the former is the natural instinct.
And props on the RdP/Lilo comment. :up:

:up: In hindsight the lowside is the better option but it's Simoncelli's fault for putting him in that position in the first place

[scaliwag]

Here's my two penny-worth, Sim was in front of Ped when the collision occurred, nobody can argue otherwise, that being so, Ped ran into Sim regardless of what side of the track Sim was on.

It's unfortunate that Ped was injured, but also irrelevant, Ped was behind Sim, so the onus was on him to avoid the coming together.

Sure Sim is an aggressive rider, and I say thank goodness for that, MotoGP is fast furious and dangerous, and once again I say thank goodness for that, overtaking is the lifeblood of racing, passing inside or outside is irrelevant, it's what racing is all about.

If the powers that be take unto themselves the power decide what is a safe passing maneuver we can say goodbye to real racing.

Regards scaliwag

[Allyc85]

Slow mo replay from the front.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kWAvnlfAdQ

To me it is just a racing incident. Simoncelli had every right to go for the corner, but could have left more room on the apex as he was coming from a fair distance back. But I still feel that a ride through was way OTT, and the move was no worse than any other collision we have seen before. And a race ban.... lol

[Daniel]

Here's my two penny-worth, Sim was in front of Ped when the collision occurred, nobody can argue otherwise, that being so, Ped ran into Sim regardless of what side of the track Sim was on.


Complete BS argument. So if I sideswipe you on the motorway and I'm slightly in front and I hit you then it's your fault?

I think the fact that MotoGP riders are so open to SERIOUS injury means that the passing needs to be kept to a certain standard. If Pedrosa had been killed do we still excuse Simoncelli because he was in front?

I'm happy to excuse collisions that happen as a result of someone losing control, but Simoncelli was completely in control and he rode into another rider, not on.

[Daniel]

Slow mo replay from the front.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kWAvnlfAdQ

To me it is just a racing incident. Simoncelli had every right to go for the corner, but could have left more room on the apex as he was coming from a fair distance back. But I still feel that a ride through was way OTT, and the move was no worse than any other collision we have seen before. And a race ban.... lol

watch it from behind and you'll get a better perspective on it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myTR9Cc6tXM

[MrJan]

At about 19 or 20 seconds it looks like both can make the corner safely, then Pedrosa stands the bike up...

[Daniel]

At about 19 or 20 seconds it looks like both can make the corner safely, then Pedrosa stands the bike up...

Well I played it VERY slowly by pausing and unpausing it and IMHO he stands up because Simoncelli hits him.

[MrJan]

Well I played it VERY slowly by pausing and unpausing it and IMHO he stands up because Simoncelli hits him.

He brushes him, but there is still space and I'm confident they'd have both made the corner safely if Dani hadn't altered his course. It was an agressive closing of the door, but it needn't have ended the way it did. I'd also argue that Dani should've accepted that he'd lost the place, Marco got to the corner first and was clearly quite a bit quicker.

[Daniel]

He brushes him, but there is still space and I'm confident they'd have both made the corner safely if Dani hadn't altered his course. It was an agressive closing of the door, but it needn't have ended the way it did. I'd also argue that Dani should've accepted that he'd lost the place, Marco got to the corner first and was clearly quite a bit quicker.

Let's agree to disagree :)

[MrJan]

Let's agree to disagree :)

Or we could just agree that I'm right :D

[scaliwag]

[quote="Daniel"]Complete BS argument. So if I sideswipe you on the motorway and I'm slightly in front and I hit you then it's your fault?

I think the fact that MotoGP riders are so open to SERIOUS injury means that the passing needs to be kept to a certain standard. If Pedrosa had been killed do we still excuse Simoncelli because he was in front?

Hi Dan.
Here it's in terms you can understand, Sim passed Ped, Ped was on the inside of the corner, Sim was on the outside of the corner, but get this, Sim was in front of Ped, that means he was leading Ped, that means Ped was behind Sim.

Question, since when has a rider in front of a competitor had to give up track position to the rider behind him? Sim had passed Ped on the outside, it was Ped who ran into Sim not the other way round.

Regards scaliwag.

[Daniel]

Complete BS argument. So if I sideswipe you on the motorway and I'm slightly in front and I hit you then it's your fault?

I think the fact that MotoGP riders are so open to SERIOUS injury means that the passing needs to be kept to a certain standard. If Pedrosa had been killed do we still excuse Simoncelli because he was in front?

Hi Dan.
Here it's in terms you can understand, Sim passed Ped, Ped was on the inside of the corner, Sim was on the outside of the corner, but get this, Sim was in front of Ped, that means he was leading Ped, that means Ped was behind Sim.

Question, since when has a rider in front of a competitor had to give up track position to the rider behind him? Sim had passed Ped on the outside, it was Ped who ran into Sim not the other way round.

Regards scaliwag.

I'll rep whe you sto sho eve nam to a 3 let wor.

Kin reg Dan

[dannyboy122]

personally i would have kicked Randy off of his bike that was so dangerous almost in simmo's league of dangerous

[dannyboy122]

Simoncelli has form for knocking other riders off - Bautista and Barbera in 250cc. A harsh penalty, however, I do agree that if it was a certain other rider, nothing would have happened.

Yes i believe thats true nothing would have happened to the other said rider at all

[dannyboy122]

had the pass by simmo not ended up with Danni going down we would be all sitting here talking about how great that pass was its just a shame sometimes things get a little too close and bad things happen

[markabilly]

He brushes him, but there is still space and I'm confident they'd have both made the corner safely if Dani hadn't altered his course. It was an agressive closing of the door, but it needn't have ended the way it did. I'd also argue that Dani should've accepted that he'd lost the place, Marco got to the corner first and was clearly quite a bit quicker.


What????

The responsibility is always on the rider making the pass, to pass without incident. one learns that the first day of any respectable bike racing school.

Period.

Why? Well take a good look at the racing bike. Look real hard and you will notice there are no mirrors.


Therefore, perhaps if marco had been doing his pass to the inside, this might have some merit: "Dani should've accepted that he'd lost th e place, Marco got to the corner first and was clearly quite a bit quicker". Yep, if Marco went to the inside where he would be in the field of vision..........well...... but when a rider appraoches a corner, his focus is to the front and to the inside where the apex is located.

Worse, not only are there no mirrors, a rider does not always know when he is being passed until the other rider comes into his field of vision.

Even more worse, is that riding successfully through a corner is the work of the entire body, and in such a posture, the extreme tendency is that the bike will follow the rider's eyes and body by instinct. Indeed driving a car is much the same, but on a bike, the tendency is a thousand times stronger. So when Dani flashes from the outside , not the inside, the natural and immediate tendency is to look at the rider on the outside, and cause the bike to stand up.

Further, Marco was on his brakes through the apex when he should have been on the transition to the gas, which is what dani would have been doing at the precise moment when marco passed into view.

To let Marco through, Dani had to get off the gas.

What causes any bike to "high side"?


Doing an "on the gas", then abruptly shutting off the throttle in the middle of a corner causes the bike to stand up and the rider potentially to go flying off to the outside of the bike.


Conclusion: If Dani did exactly what you said he should do, back off and let Marco through, once Marco was where Dani could see him, Dani's act of shutting off the gas will cause a high side right into Marco.

Add in the pass to the outside.

Add in marco brakig and not acceleraating when dani would have been acccelerating.

Add in no mirrors.

Add in Dani changing his vision focus from the front and the apex, to the other side, causing the bike to have a tendency to go there.

Add in dani trying to avoid the collision as well as being surprized.......well it should be clear whose fault it was.

Wose, add in Marco's denial of any wrongdoing, along with the comments from other riders like spies and Edwards, and Marco truly deserves to sit out at least one race......



(as to scalawag, his comments are unworthy of any reponse. PERIOD)

[MrJan]

Wow! That's an awful lot of wrong. Firstly, Marco had made the pass without incident, that's why he was in front. Secondly, riders do know when someone is behind them as they can hear the bike. This is something that Steve Parrish (he used to ride the pesky things) mentions fairly often in his commentary on the BBC.

Thirdly, Dani wouldn't have highsided, you highside by using too much throttle which causes the rear wheel to slip, then it eventually fins grip and chucks you off. Where in any of my posts have I said that Dani should've nailed it??! Also if you notice the video you'll see that Dani was in no way on the gas, in fact he was very hard on the brakes, which is why the tail was squirming. He hadn't even reached transition to the gas because he got to the corner too hot.

And finally the knowledge that Dani Pedrosa is **** on the brakes, while Simoncelli is last of the late brakers. Pedrosa was always going to get to that corner second, and, having already been passed a few corners before, he should have known Marco would be coming past.

[markabilly]

Wow! That's an awful lot of wrong. Firstly, Marco had made the pass without incident, that's why he was in front. Secondly, riders do know when someone is behind them as they can hear the bike. This is something that Steve Parrish (he used to ride the pesky things) mentions fairly often in his commentary on the BBC.

Thirdly, Dani wouldn't have highsided, you highside by using too much throttle which causes the rear wheel to slip, then it eventually fins grip and chucks you off. Where in any of my posts have I said that Dani should've nailed it??! Also if you notice the video you'll see that Dani was in no way on the gas, in fact he was very hard on the brakes, which is why the tail was squirming. He hadn't even reached transition to the gas because he got to the corner too hot.

And finally the knowledge that Dani Pedrosa is **** on the brakes, while Simoncelli is last of the late brakers. Pedrosa was always going to get to that corner second, and, having already been passed a few corners before, he should have known Marco would be coming past.


First, then I guess since he "made the pass without incident", dani just accelerated and crashed into him?????????or there was no acident, none at all, and Dani has not a broken collar bne....

second, you can hear a bike close behind, but beyond that, it is not all that helpful. When the bike gets in front, the exhaust will sound different, but once that happens , all that tells you is that his pipe's opening is besides you or in front, but you still can not react well to it, UNTIL YOU SEE THE BIKE.

You high side because (1) you have used too much throttle, and then shut it off too abruptly and/ or (2) get on the brakes.....

The most difficult thing to learn in racing, is to overcome the natural instinct to slow down by these actions. Unfortunately, even the very best forget the rules about brakes and shutting off the throttle and get tossed.

When too fast, the smart thing is to try to modulate the throttle or even increase it so as to straighten out the bike and to keep it out of a high side, or if it is going down, to cause the bike to low side.......

I know, because I have two banged up shoulders along with broken collar bone, twice, because i would forget while racing a bike in my much younger days..... :(


the last one being on an R-1 in 2001.....but hey, i have seen rossi make the same mistake

[MrJan]

First, then I guess since he "made the pass without incident", dani just accelerated and crashed into him?????????or there was no acident, none at all, and Dani has not a broken collar bne....

Are you saying that Marco wasn't in front? The way I see it Marco got to the corner first, ergo he made the pass. Yes he laid it in a bit rough, but Pedrosa was leant over at that stage too, the contact only came when Pedrosa stood the bike up. It was a hard pass, I'm not trying to deny that, but it was a racing incident and a ride through (which is a pretty rare penalty in MotoGP) is a harsh decision.


second, you can hear a bike close behind, but beyond that, it is not all that helpful. When the bike gets in front, the exhaust will sound different, but once that happens , all that tells you is that his pipe's opening is besides you or in front, but you still can not react well to it, UNTIL YOU SEE THE BIKE.

Fair enough, I'm not a bike rider so only going on what I've heard.


You high side because (1) you have used too much throttle, and then shut it off too abruptly and/ or (2) get on the brakes..... We're basically saying the same thing here, although you're being a bit more narrow minded. Shutting off/getting on the brakes has the effect of suddenly giving you grip, this is what chucks you off. Either way Dani wasn't on the throttle hard enough to reduce grip enough (else shirley the back wheel would have been slipping) and nor am I suggesting he should have been, so the highside just wasn't going to happen. The lowside was more likely because he was heavy on the brakes. Ultimately it's all to do with grip, the causes for the loss/gain of grip may be different but the effect is usually the same (you're on your arse).


The most difficult thing to learn in racing, is to overcome the natural instinct to slow down by these actions. Unfortunately, even the very best forget the rules about brakes and shutting off the throttle and get tossed.

When too fast, the smart thing is to try to modulate the throttle or even increase it so as to straighten out the bike and to keep it out of a high side, or if it is going down, to cause the bike to low side.......

Yep, works the same for cars when oversteering (although obviously if you get it wrong the effects aren't so bad). But again it's not something that is relevant to this incident.

But ultimately I still think that, if he hadn't stood the bike up, both would've got through that corner fine.

[Daniel]

have a look at the reverse angle, Dani clearly stands the bike up after being hit by Simoncelli.

If Simoncelli hadn't ridden into Pedrosa then Pedrosa would have been fine.

[patnicholls]

As an aside on the 125cc race, here is a preseason photo of the Blusens/Paris Hilton squad team launch with 16-year old Maverick Vinales:

http://www.foxsports.com.au/motor-sports/moto-gp/maverick-vinales-wins-his-first-125cc-gp-aboard-the-paris-hilton-sponsored-aprilia/story-fn2ms4i4-1226056572275

[Daniel]

As an aside on the 125cc race, here is a preseason photo of the Blusens/Paris Hilton squad team launch with 16-year old Maverick Vinales:

http://www.foxsports.com.au/motor-sports/moto-gp/maverick-vinales-wins-his-first-125cc-gp-aboard-the-paris-hilton-sponsored-aprilia/story-fn2ms4i4-1226056572275

He's never seen a boob before I guess?

[bluegem280]

He's never seen a boob before I guess?
:)

Dani was unlucky, fall down and scored no point, and ride through penalty is good decision, imo.

[MrJan]

He's never seen a boob before I guess?

Nah, he just hasn't quite got his 'boob staring' technique down yet ;)

[markabilly]

have a look at the reverse angle, Dani clearly stands the bike up after being hit by Simoncelli.

If Simoncelli hadn't ridden into Pedrosa then Pedrosa would have been fine.

Yeah, after looking at it, Marco makes first contact and then up goes dani's bike.....even without the first contact before the bike stands up, fault still on marco for accident.
However, I still disagree that without contact, he would have been fine as marco simply cut off Dani in mid-corner. Dani was going down, probably with a high side, maybe with a low side, contact or not.

[markabilly]

Are you saying that Marco wasn't in front? The way I see it Marco got to the corner first, ergo he made the pass. Yes he laid it in a bit rough, but Pedrosa was leant over at that stage too, the contact only came when Pedrosa stood the bike up. It was a hard pass, I'm not trying to deny that, but it was a racing incident and a ride through (which is a pretty rare penalty in MotoGP) is a harsh decision.


.

No, a pass is being completely in front of another bike, with both bikes on or close to the racing line. A wheel or 2/3 the bike, is not a pass.

And as I said before, a pass to the outside is very dangerous, because when a rider looks to the outside, the movement of the head, neck and sholders will cause the bike to stand up and move towards the outside of a corner, off the racing line. I have seen riders being lapped on the outside, look to the outside at who/where the rider was lapping them and run into whoever was passing them, all because the rider to the inside looked outside.

Indeed, I have been lapped and committed such sins.....................

This is NOT car racing. In car racing the movement of the hands on the sterring wheel, along with brakes and throttle, control direction of the car. In bike racing, the movement of the body, any part of the body, along with use of the throttle and brake, control the direction of the bike.




Fair enough, I'm not a bike rider so only going on what I've heard.




Explains much.

However, even riding a bike on the street is not the same as going all out on the track, dragging the knee.......not even close




We're basically saying the same thing here, although you're being a bit more narrow minded. Shutting off/getting on the brakes has the effect of suddenly giving you grip, this is what chucks you off. Either way Dani wasn't on the throttle hard enough to reduce grip enough (else shirley the back wheel would have been slipping) and nor am I suggesting he should have been, so the highside just wasn't going to happen. The lowside was more likely because he was heavy on the brakes. Ultimately it's all to do with grip, the causes for the loss/gain of grip may be different but the effect is usually the same (you're on your arse).




No we are not, not even close. Getting on the brakes causes the bike to sit up. Giving too much throttle causes the rear to slide out, and if contiued, maybe a low side,

Getting off the throttle too abruptly or on the brakes, causes the bike to stand up.


From my view, contact before he stood it up or contact after he stood it up, the accident was going to happen, because marco went into the racing line without enough clearance to make it.

Marco's fault. Period.
This is NOT car racing, and it is completely different. If one is going to do a close hard pass, do it on the inside, where the other rider can see you without having to turn his head to the outside. Even then, the responsibility remains on the passing rider NOT to cause a crash and recognize the rider being passed may not be able to have any clue what you are doing..........

[MrJan]

No we are not, not even close. Getting on the brakes causes the bike to sit up. Giving too much throttle causes the rear to slide out, and if contiued, maybe a low side,

Getting off the throttle too abruptly or on the brakes, causes the bike to stand up.

I'm not even going to bother with answering to anything else because it's just pointless, but can't let this pass.

1)Man gets on throttle too hard, the rear tyre begins to slip.
2)Man poos himself and either a) shuts off the throttle or b) brakes.
3)Bike regains grip as result of 2.
4)Man comes off bike.

It's the sudden gain of grip after sliding that causes the highside. Getting on the brakes alone will not cause a highside, that comes a result trying to put more power through the rear wheel than the tyre can deal with, and then letting off/braking harshly which gives you grip. If the rear wheel isn't sliding then getting out the throttle or braking won't do dick other than slow you down, it's only the lack of adhesion (followed by very abrupt adhesion) that causes the bike to highside.

[Daniel]

Watch the video, Simoncelli hit him.

[bluegem280]

No we are not, not even close. Getting on the brakes causes the bike to sit up. Giving too much throttle causes the rear to slide out, and if contiued, maybe a low side,
Getting off the throttle too abruptly or on the brakes, causes the bike to stand up.


From my view, contact before he stood it up or contact after he stood it up, the accident was going to happen, because marco went into the racing line without enough clearance to make it.


Marco's fault. Period.
This is NOT car racing, and it is completely different. If one is going to do a close hard pass, do it on the inside, where the other rider can see you without having to turn his head to the outside. Even then, the responsibility remains on the passing rider NOT to cause a crash and recognize the rider being passed may not be able to have any clue what you are doing..........

Yeah it's difficult to decide they collided before or after Ped stood up. It looks like he didn't have enough clearance where to move on when Sim was taking it. The front wheel of Sim was already at the front, if there were enough space for Ped to move on he would have avoided the contact.

Perhaps Ped has used front brake more than the rear one that has caused him stood up, and lost the balance. Braking on rear brake the bike tends to slide out. However Sim chance on his first vic in Lemans disappeared, but still better than Pedrosa who was injured and scored no point at all. Ride trough penalty is fair decision, imo.

[ShiftingGears]

Yeah it's difficult to decide they collided before or after Ped stood up.

Pedrosa's front wheel touched Simoncelli's knee.

[NinjaMaster]

Here's my two penny-worth, Sim was in front of Ped when the collision occurred, nobody can argue otherwise, that being so, Ped ran into Sim regardless of what side of the track Sim was on.

It's unfortunate that Ped was injured, but also irrelevant, Ped was behind Sim, so the onus was on him to avoid the coming together.

Sure Sim is an aggressive rider, and I say thank goodness for that, MotoGP is fast furious and dangerous, and once again I say thank goodness for that, overtaking is the lifeblood of racing, passing inside or outside is irrelevant, it's what racing is all about.

If the powers that be take unto themselves the power decide what is a safe passing maneuver we can say goodbye to real racing.

Regards scaliwag

Hmmm, that's an interesting take on things. By your definition, Harada is at fault in the following video, not Capirossi.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQdzS1WmhCg




He brushes him, but there is still space and I'm confident they'd have both made the corner safely if Dani hadn't altered his course. It was an agressive closing of the door, but it needn't have ended the way it did. I'd also argue that Dani should've accepted that he'd lost the place, Marco got to the corner first and was clearly quite a bit quicker.

I'm not so confident they could've both gotten through. At best Dani would've run straight into the side of Simoncelli but most likely low-sided and taken them both down due to a lack on room as Marco closed the corner off. It could easily be argued that Simoncelli needed 30 seconds more patients to pass Pedrosa pretty much anywhere else he liked without forcing the issue.

Then there's the issue of the penalty. I'm more of the opinion that nothing should have happened until after the race when it could have been more fully deliberated. What if upon close inspection the race director found extenuating circumstances that absolve Marco of wrongdoing? He has no recourse from a ride-through penalty.

It's just a shame that controversy has mired the second race out of the four we've seen and it's overshadowed what should be a super-tight championship race, the first podium of SuperSic and the amazing first wins for Vinales and Marquez. Hopefully this is the end of the crap and for the rest of the year we can get on with bitch free racing.

[Daniel]

I'm not so confident they could've both gotten through. At best Dani would've run straight into the side of Simoncelli but most likely low-sided and taken them both down due to a lack on room as Marco closed the corner off. It could easily be argued that Simoncelli needed 30 seconds more patients to pass Pedrosa pretty much anywhere else he liked without forcing the issue.

Exactly. If this were F1 we'd be talking about Simoncelli moving in the braking zone.