Advices needed chosing next car

[ioan]

Never thought I will have to ask for help in deciding on my next car but I am having a rather hard time making up my mind.
I've been driving an Audi A4 Avant 2.0TDI up to now, lately the engine has been running less then 100% OK, but still strong, and Audi service keeps telling me that all is fine (while it is not). So I've got fed up with their dismissing of the obvious problem and was starting the think about choosing a BMW 320d Touring for my next drive, even though I find the A4 to be almost perfect for what I expect from a daily ride.
My only niggle with the BMW is that it offers visibly less space (I was even considering getting a Renault Espace at one point but decided that I am not going to populate the kindergarten yet), so I am kind of torn between the two of them.
I'll take the BMW of a colleague for a test drive tomorrow and then the new A4 2.0TDI, however one needs more than a short test drive in order to make up his mind.

I am sure many of you had already driven both cars and you could help me by sharing with me the ups and downs of both these cars. So let's hear them! :)

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Alfa 159

[ioan]

Alfa 159

Thanks, however beautiful a car it is (more style than the Audi and BMW) somehow is not what I would prefer.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Thanks, however beautiful a car it is (more style than the Audi and BMW) somehow is not what I would prefer.

Well my family's experiences with BMW's are that they aren't as reliable as their reputation would suggest.

[Sonic]

I have owned neither, but have driven the Beemer. It does, as you say, lack space, especially in the rear, and from the sounds of it you are looking for acres of room back there.

[Rollo]

I think that it's an interesting sign that BMW has never won the European Car of the Year award and the last time that Audi did was with the Audi 100 back in 1983.

I personally think that the best platform in that sort of market is the Ford C1 Platform which sits underneath the Ford Focus, the Mazda 3 and the Volvo C30, S40 and V50; I don't know if Mazda offer a diesel but both Ford and Volvo do. I imagine that the V50 is the pick of the bunch.

The Opel Insignia won European Car of the Year in 2009 and that has been finally released as a wagon variant.

Usually the cars which do pick up the European Car of the Year award are really quite good indeed. Three of the last four cars I've owned have been in the top 3, and the one that wasn't as far as I know wasn't sold in Europe at all.

[gloomyDAY]

http://www.nissaninthenews.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/nissan_gtr_image.jpg

[Roamy]

Never thought I will have to ask for help in deciding on my next car but I am having a rather hard time making up my mind.
I've been driving an Audi A4 Avant 2.0TDI up to now, lately the engine has been running less then 100% OK, but still strong, and Audi service keeps telling me that all is fine (while it is not). So I've got fed up with their dismissing of the obvious problem and was starting the think about choosing a BMW 320d Touring for my next drive, even though I find the A4 to be almost perfect for what I expect from a daily ride.
My only niggle with the BMW is that it offers visibly less space (I was even considering getting a Renault Espace at one point but decided that I am not going to populate the kindergarten yet), so I am kind of torn between the two of them.
I'll take the BMW of a colleague for a test drive tomorrow and then the new A4 2.0TDI, however one needs more than a short test drive in order to make up his mind.

I am sure many of you had already driven both cars and you could help me by sharing with me the ups and downs of both these cars. So let's hear them! :)

Based upon your posts in the forums - you should buy a lada or a smart car !!

[Daniel]

Alfa 159

Ioan didn't ask for the name of a fat, but good looking saloon did he? :p Ever taken a look at how much a 159 weighs?

Ioan, what are your requirements for a car?

Personally, one of the nicest cars I've sat in recently is the Alfa Romeo Giulietta. It's got some really good petrol engines and the diseeeeasels aren't that bad either.

Personally I don't rate VAG cars all that highly, you tend to hear of quite a few problems compared to other marques and the styling is lazy, especially for Audi's. It's like they make an A4 and then just make 110% copies to sell as A5's and then a 110% copy to sell as the next model and so on.

[Mark]

I do wonder with the likes of BMW, Audi, Merc et al how much quality you are paying for and how much you are paying for the badge on the front?

Of course I don't have much experience in purchasing cars at that part of the market, but my father-in-law gets a lease car as part of his job and was able to choose which one he had, I believe he looked at Audi, BMW, Jaguar but eventually decided to get a Honda Accord.

[Daniel]

I do wonder with the likes of BMW, Audi, Merc et al how much quality you are paying for and how much you are paying for the badge on the front?

Of course I don't have much experience in purchasing cars at that part of the market, but my father-in-law gets a lease car as part of his job and was able to choose which one he had, I believe he looked at Audi, BMW, Jaguar but eventually decided to get a Honda Accord.

I think BMW's are generally decent, Mercedes Benz went through a rough patch few years ago, but like you say you're paying for the badge :)

[Daniel]

I had a BMW 320i SE about 4 years ago and BMW's IMO are do not live up to their reputation. I found they had a hard ride, uncomfortable seats, and an unnerving tendancy to pull the car to the left or right when going over potholes etc at speed. The gearbox is not as smooth as an Audi and to be honest I think it would be a downgrade for you ioan. The interior's are also poor for the amount of money you pay IMO. I quite like the feel of the Passat CC and for styling and ride quality it gives both the BMW 3 series and Audi A4's a run for their money. :)

Wow, the Passat CC is one of the ugliest blobbiest cars on the market! I could just about stomach seeing an Audi waiting for me in the street, but not a Passat CC.

As for hard ride and handling I can't comment personally, but I thought that was pretty much all German cars? Runflats kill ride quality.

[bowler]

ioan,

I've driven both of them, but what appeals to me may not appeal to you.
If your current Audi has some issues it doesn't mean the next one will. If the Audi has more room, and you need it, you have effectively answered your question.

Both are good good cars

[donKey jote]

I'd take the BMW before the Audi, but they're both too small.
Currently thinking of upgrading my 10-year-old donkey wagon to a S-Max :dozey:

[Steve Boyd]

The only BMW I've owned (an E30 318iS a long time ago) was overpriced, overweight & overrated in my opinion - wasn't that reliable and I had to explain the engine management fault (after half an hour of my own diagnosis with a multimeter) to their "trained technicians" after they had failed to find it in a day at their workshop. Interestingly the guys with BMW's where I work at present seem to hate their dealers with a passion.

Where I used to work the company car fleet was a mixture of Audi A4 1.9TDi & Mondeo 2.0TDI. There wasn't much to choose between them on performance but the Mondeo's were much nicer to drive with much more feel through the steering & better handling balance than the Audi's, which went round corners very well but just felt completely dead.

[ioan]

Many thanks for your helpful answers (this discounts fousto's redneck rant as he knows bugger all about cars anyway :p ).

Many good proposals on your lists, like the Alfa's, VW Passat, the Insignia and the Fords.
Rollo, I am not sure that the Focus really qualifies in the same class with the A4, maybe with the A3.

Indeed I like to have a roomy car, not for myself but for being able to pack in what is needed when needed, that's why my first thought was for a Renault Espace but then it isn't yet time for one as I have no kids, yet!
Coupes and sedans are out of question, also anything largely above 40000 Euros is a no go. Would be good if I can get a Tiptronic or equivalent and a GPS for this price as I have both in the A4 and both are great when on long holidays traveling far from home. And it has to be an elegant look with dynamic capabilities. It should be easy to find. ;)

I've got attracted by the sporty BMW look and by the praise my colleague has for his 318d Touring, so I gave it a try today and while I think it is a good car I have to admit that it's a bit lazier than my A4 even if it has RWD. Maybe a bit more precise when cornering but I think that the new A4 is also better than mine in this department. But what it really lacks is place, the trunk is so much smaller I can hardly believe it these cars are supposed to be in the same class.

Next on the list as possible Audi A4 replacements are the Citroen C5, Peugeot 508 and Renault Laguna (not really convinced about the Renault though).
I will have to see if I get time to give all 3 Frenchies a test drive even though teh C5 and the 508 are supposed to be rather close and the Laguna is not very appealing.

Please keep your suggestions coming, I am looking for all the clues I can get.

[ioan]

Interestingly the guys with BMW's where I work at present seem to hate their dealers with a passion.

I have a bit of the same with the Audi service since they keep telling me that the engine is fine even if it's obvious that there is a problem. As the car is still under warranty I will drive it till the engine gives up and then ask them to fix it.
This is the main reason why I am not 100% sure about getting another A4.

[Malbec]

ioan what are you planning on packing in your car? Sports gear? If you're considering an Espace at all it must be quite a lot of kit.

Thought about a Skoda Superb estate? Its massive, reliable and drives reasonably well though its no sports car.

Then with the money you've saved on an Audi or BMW go and treat yourself to a nice holiday or even a second car!

Most rear wheel drive cars aren't going to have the kind of space you'd have in an Audi in the back btw.

[Bob Riebe]

Get what YOU want, nothing else matters!

[ioan]

I thought a lot about the Skoda Superb but their resell price is not great around here (for some reason people in Austria prefer Audi and BMW and there are an impressive amount of these around, which also means that they sell well and you can not bargain to much on the price), I need something that keeps it's value over time.

The Espace was a thought that came after we went on holiday with friends last year and they were rather crammed in the back of my A4 not to mention that the luggage were up to the roof. But nah, I'd like to try something sporty as long as I have no kids, unless Renault produces a new Espace F1 edition for which I would have no money anyway! ;)

You sure right about the space at the rear of the RWDs, there is no foot space for a 3rd person in the BMW because of the bulky transmission, my old man's Sierra has tons of space though, I wonder why BMW can't do it?

[ioan]

Get what YOU want, nothing else matters!

Then I have to get at least 2 different cars! ;)

[donKey jote]

But nah, I'd like to try something sporty as long as I have no kids, unless Renault produces a new Espace F1 edition for which I would have no money anyway! ;)

Ford S-Max 240PS, loads of nice extras and plenty of room to chuck a couple of bikes (or kids) in the back :)

Only problem I see with it is it's not very LPG tank friendly :dozey:

[ioan]

For now I'll go with the bikes thanks! :D

[donKey jote]

Yeah well better safe than sorry ;) :p

[Rollo]

Rollo, I am not sure that the Focus really qualifies in the same class with the A4, maybe with the A3.


A step up in size from the Focus/V50/Mazda 3 is the Ford Mondeo, Mazda 6 and Volvo V70 or XC70 which all sit on the Ford EUCD Platform. Also there's the Mazda CX-9 and the Land Rover Freo 2 which also share it, but they're probably a little too vast too park in cramped European streets.

The SEAT Exeo Estate which is based off of the Audi A4 you can probably pick up new for about €8000 less than the A4 for what is virtually identical mechanicals underneath. The Exeo4 is I assume an exact copy of the A4 Quattro system.
VAG spread parts across the group, so even under a Skoda you can find VW, Audi and SEAT stamps on parts.

[Daniel]

A step up in size from the Focus/V50/Mazda 3 is the Ford Mondeo, Mazda 6 and Volvo V70 or XC70 which all sit on the Ford EUCD Platform. Also there's the Mazda CX-9 and the Land Rover Freo 2 which also share it, but they're probably a little too vast too park in cramped European streets.

The SEAT Exeo Estate which is based off of the Audi A4 you can probably pick up new for about €8000 less than the A4 for what is virtually identical mechanicals underneath. The Exeo4 is I assume an exact copy of the A4 Quattro system.
VAG spread parts across the group, so even under a Skoda you can find VW, Audi and SEAT stamps on parts.

It should be noted though that Audi gets the most modern platforms which then get handed down to VW and after that to Seat and Skoda so whilst when you buy a Skoda you do get a VW, it's usually one that's a few years older than the current VW's in terms of design.

[Robinho]

I have recently driven V50 and V70, Passat (estate) (last version) and an Insignia Sports Tourer (estate) and I have to say the V70 and Insignia come out top of the list for me. I was very pleasantly surprised by the insignia, its really well equipped and looks good inside and out and is considerabley cheaper than the Audi and BMW rivals. It also drove really well. I also loved the automatic boot opening and closing from a switch inside, i'd not come across that before.

[wedge]

My dad's been thinking about dropping down a league and the one's we both agreed on are: Mazda 6, Skoda Superb, Skoda Octavia. Personally I'd be inclined to take the Mazda. Both agreed on jaw dropping looks and good load space but my dad is get on a bit and coming to the point of not fully appreciating the compromise of sporty, eager handling vs. ride quality.

[DexDexter]

I have recently driven V50 and V70, Passat (estate) (last version) and an Insignia Sports Tourer (estate) and I have to say the V70 and Insignia come out top of the list for me. I was very pleasantly surprised by the insignia, its really well equipped and looks good inside and out and is considerabley cheaper than the Audi and BMW rivals. It also drove really well. I also loved the automatic boot opening and closing from a switch inside, i'd not come across that before.

Insignia does look very nice but it's Opel, they've destroyed their reputation (at least in this country) for years to come with all the problems the earlier Astras and Vectras had. It's not an Audi or BMW rival, Mondeo, C5 etc. are its rivals.

Talking about cars, the best value for money IMO is without any doubt Skoda Octavia, it's got good engines, huge trunk, reasonable size cabin and reasonable outer dimensions, it is good to drive, well-made and cheap. Next are the Koreans who are bit late with the small turbos but otherwise offer a lot of car for the money and quality that is equal to anybody. After all Hyundai won the quite respected Autobild 2010 quality survey.


My dad's been thinking about dropping down a league and the one's we both agreed on are: Mazda 6, Skoda Superb, Skoda Octavia. Personally I'd be inclined to take the Mazda. Both agreed on jaw dropping looks and good load space but my dad is get on a bit and coming to the point of not fully appreciating the compromise of sporty, eager handling vs. ride quality.

Mazda doesn't offer engines that can compete even with the basic VAG 1.4TSI 120hp, diesels discarded. Normally aspirated engines just don't match up against even those small turbos.

[Mark]

These days if there is a car sitting an inch from my bumper at 80 it's just as likely to be an Insignia as a Beemer.

[Daniel]

These days if there is a car sitting an inch from my bumper at 80 it's just as likely to be an Insignia as a Beemer.

I guess with the credit crunch people can't afford BMW's and Audi's as much :p

[ioan]

Thanks a lot for your suggestions and infos. I want to make my final choice by mid June so keep the ideas coming please.

Meanwhile my benevolent colleague dragged me to the BMW dealer and we bargained a bit for a package at 38500 Euros without automatic gearbox.

Speaking of Automatic gearboxes the BMW dealer tried very hard to convince me that the real deal is the BMW automatic gearbox which is a 'real one' while according to him the Audi DSG is just a double clutch gearbox. I might be wrong but the DSG is touted to be better than the BMW (is that a Getrag or something like that?), or am I wrong here? Help is highly appreciated.

[Daniel]

Thanks a lot for your suggestions and infos. I want to make my final choice by mid June so keep the ideas coming please.

Meanwhile my benevolent colleague dragged me to the BMW dealer and we bargained a bit for a package at 38500 Euros without automatic gearbox.

Speaking of Automatic gearboxes the BMW dealer tried very hard to convince me that the real deal is the BMW automatic gearbox which is a 'real one' while according to him the Audi DSG is just a double clutch gearbox. I might be wrong but the DSG is touted to be better than the BMW (is that a Getrag or something like that?), or am I wrong here? Help is highly appreciated.

Well it depends what you want. A double clutch gearbox will give you better mileage than an auto box with a torque converter in it.

[Steve Boyd]

I thought a lot about the Skoda Superb but their resell price is not great around here (for some reason people in Austria prefer Audi and BMW and there are an impressive amount of these around, which also means that they sell well and you can not bargain to much on the price), I need something that keeps it's value over time.
You need to think carefully about re-sale values and depreciation. Take two cars of similar specification from two different makers. One costs 40k and after some years when you sell it you get 20k. It's lost 50%. The other costs 35k and when you sell it after the same time you get 15k. It's lost 57%. This is the story that BMW & Mercedes tell you. If you look at it in cash both have lost 20k so you think maybe they are the same but if you bought the 35k car you would have had the 5k difference to spend on something else, or leave in the bank earning interest or not needed to borrow so actually the 35k car is a better deal.

[ioan]

Well it depends what you want. A double clutch gearbox will give you better mileage than an auto box with a torque converter in it.

I just did a short search on the net and it looks like BMW's full automatic is no where near the quality of my older 7 speed DSG. :\

Looks to me that the final round will be between A4 and C5 most probably.

[ioan]

You need to think carefully about re-sale values and depreciation. Take two cars of similar specification from two different makers. One costs 40k and after some years when you sell it you get 20k. It's lost 50%. The other costs 35k and when you sell it after the same time you get 15k. It's lost 57%. This is the story that BMW & Mercedes tell you. If you look at it in cash both have lost 20k so you think maybe they are the same but if you bought the 35k car you would have had the 5k difference to spend on something else, or leave in the bank earning interest or not needed to borrow so actually the 35k car is a better deal.

This is one of the reason why I first thought that the C5 might be a better value than the A4.
Now remains to be seen which one will make me a better offer. I hate bargaining but life is harder nowadays. :)

[Sonic]

The C5 is a handsome motor. :up:

[wedge]

Mazda doesn't offer engines that can compete even with the basic VAG 1.4TSI 120hp, diesels discarded. Normally aspirated engines just don't match up against even those small turbos.

Yeah, I know. My dad's nearing retirement and I don't think he'll miss the torque from the turbo. He's cruising these days.


If you want a German workhorse and not fussed about RWD then its Audi Avants all the way!

[BleAivano]

i found a reliabillity index at the german motor association ADAC. see this link (http://www.adac.de/infotestrat/unfall-schaeden-und-panne/pannenstatistik/suchergebnis.aspx?pklid=9&pstatid=3&ReturnUrl=5uEyBA6KBgNKCARK55ZyBARCzNqr0u23BTXFzyqp zAcxCLRyzAa1CLRyzAZyC5X3xLErxLEz5uXFBARpzocy0gN8ym 68C5X3xLE4HeN_).

if you click on the model names you will get a more detailed info about the car's problems.

also you can find similar info here:
http://www.bilsmart.se/100075_audi_a4_avant?year=2007
and here:
http://www.bilsmart.se/100182_bmw_3-serien?year=2007

[ioan]

Thanks for the links, interesting read, especially the ADAC reliability index, this even confirms my theory that my 2007 TDI A4 has a problem either with the engine management and/or with the turbo compressor. Next service check will be needed in 7000 kms hopefully they will finally repair then.

I have checked the resell rates with the leasing company and for whatever reason Audi (over 42% of the initial price) is king in Austria followed, by BMW and then the big family cars like the Renault Espace.
This pretty much leaves the French cars out of my choice, the guy from the leasing company was surprised and amused to even hear the likes of C5 and Peugeot 508 mentioned on my list (same reaction I've got from the BMW sales guy yesterday).

[Malbec]

Talking about cars, the best value for money IMO is without any doubt Skoda Octavia, it's got good engines, huge trunk, reasonable size cabin and reasonable outer dimensions, it is good to drive, well-made and cheap. Next are the Koreans who are bit late with the small turbos but otherwise offer a lot of car for the money and quality that is equal to anybody. After all Hyundai won the quite respected Autobild 2010 quality survey.

Mazda doesn't offer engines that can compete even with the basic VAG 1.4TSI 120hp, diesels discarded. Normally aspirated engines just don't match up against even those small turbos.

Skoda Octavia 1.4 TSI you say? So good that I put a deposit on a new one last week...

In the UK Skoda have a 20% off VAT back deal with petrol Octavias making them even more competitive. Can't argue with that.

[Daniel]

Skoda Octavia 1.4 TSI you say? So good that I put a deposit on a new one last week...

In the UK Skoda have a 20% off VAT back deal with petrol Octavias making them even more competitive. Can't argue with that.

Just wait for Gridgirl to say that she could have got one cheaper :rolleyes:

I thought the TSI was being phased out due to cost and a slightly higher rate of failure than VW were happy with. I heard that on an Italian car fan site so there is obviously there is a big chance of bias ;)

[GridGirl]

Daniel, I was going to ask if the VAT discount was worth more than scrappage but I didn't want to turn the thread into a 500 borefest.

Dylan, what made you choose a 1.4l Octavia? I only ask because I am only used to driving the VRS model and a 1.4l sounds quite a small engine for such a large car.

[Malbec]

Daniel, I was going to ask if the VAT discount was worth more than scrappage but I didn't want to turn the thread into a 500 borefest.

Dylan, what made you choose a 1.4l Octavia? I only ask because I am only used to driving the VRS model and a 1.4l sounds quite a small engine for such a large car.

The VAT on the model I chose was over 2k so it was worth more than scrappage.

The 1.4 is both turbo and supercharged and feels more like a well sorted conventional 1.8 which would be about par for an Octavia I think. Its very torquey too.

We intend to keep the car for a long time, up to a decade and economy and comfort will always be relevant for us while performance won't be. I don't really see the point in performance cars anymore, you continuously pay the price in terms of harsh ride, worse consumption and more expensive insurance while not enjoying the performance that often in real world driving (especially in London where we are). I went for the most comfortable option possible with the highest profile tyres I could get for the model I chose because I'd always appreciate the smoother ride.

Anyway my views are somewhat skewed in that I have a litre sportsbike for both commuting and fun which does sate my desire for performance somewhat :grin:

[Daniel]

The VAT on the model I chose was over 2k so it was worth more than scrappage.

The 1.4 is both turbo and supercharged and feels more like a well sorted conventional 1.8 which would be about par for an Octavia I think. Its very torquey too.

We intend to keep the car for a long time, up to a decade and economy and comfort will always be relevant for us while performance won't be. I don't really see the point in performance cars anymore, you continuously pay the price in terms of harsh ride, worse consumption and more expensive insurance while not enjoying the performance that often in real world driving (especially in London where we are). I went for the most comfortable option possible with the highest profile tyres I could get for the model I chose because I'd always appreciate the smoother ride.

Anyway my views are somewhat skewed in that I have a litre sportsbike for both commuting and fun which does sate my desire for performance somewhat :grin:

The twincharger engine sounds like a great engine :) I think the twincharger was meant to be a replacement for the 2 litre engine petrol engine and I can imagine it probably is a good one :)

I know what you mean about going for higher profile tyres. I went for 16" wheels on the 500 over the standard 15" ones and there is a definite impact upon ride quality, I could have got 14" wheels if I'd specced the base spec car but that wasn't what we wanted. The 16" wheels do look much better and the tyres in that size are much more performance biased than in the other sizes.

You'll have to post some pictures of it when you get it :)

[markabilly]

audie, beemer, mazda and porsches....all have two thing in common: Some of their products are fun to drive and ALL of them break, with many issues, far more than they should
Go with a toyota for reliability

[Brown, Jon Brow]

audie, beemer, mazda and porsches....all have two thing in common: Some of their products are fun to drive and ALL of them break, with many issues, far more than they should
Go with a toyota for reliability

I've never heard of a Mazda ever breaking down. Ever!

[Daniel]

I've never heard of a Mazda ever breaking down. Ever!

they're just Ford's Jon, Ford's break.

[markabilly]

every mazda owned by anybody I have known in the States, has been great for the time during the warranty, but at the 40k mile or so thereafter, they start with the troubles....

The exception has been their rotary engines. Those start busting much earlier.

[markabilly]

they're just Ford's Jon, Ford's break.

not all. the ford f-250, with the no longer made 7.3 diesel, was good for at least 500k miles. All the replacements since, well they suck.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

they're just Ford's Jon, Ford's break.

True. But that said we have had Fords in our family and never had any issues. The most unreliable cars we've had have been BMWs, followed by Renaults and Jaguars.

[Daniel]

not all. the ford f-250, with the no longer made 7.3 diesel, was good for at least 500k miles. All the replacements since, well they suck.

I wasn't trying to suggest that they're all unreliable, just that like all cars, they're not 100% reliable :)

[DexDexter]

audie, beemer, mazda and porsches....all have two thing in common: Some of their products are fun to drive and ALL of them break, with many issues, far more than they should
Go with a toyota for reliability

That's just not true. Toyotas are reliable but recent German reliability studies (which are trustworthy) show that others have caught up. Toyota's problem are the engines, at the moment they don't offer any small turbocharged engines and their diesels are average at best. Normally aspirated engines are from the stone age, a fact that you Americans will realise too in a few years, I'm sure.

http://www.caradvice.com.au/76335/hyundai-wins-germanys-autobild-quality-report-2010/

[odykas]

Alfa 159

Amen.

[Daniel]

Come on ody, the one with the GM v6?

[odykas]

1750 TBi of course :cool:

[Daniel]

1750 TBi of course :cool:

Fair point. it's still overweight though.

[Malbec]

You'll have to post some pictures of it when you get it :)

With a delivery time of anything between 10-16 weeks you're in for a long wait... and the wait for the Diesel models is even longer, hence the discount on the petrol versions.

[Daniel]

With a delivery time of anything between 10-16 weeks you're in for a long wait... and the wait for the Diesel models is even longer, hence the discount on the petrol versions.

I know the feeling. I think we waited about 10 and a half weeks for our 500 and it felt a long time especially as we only had one car at the time.

Here's a song I thought was appropriate :p
uMyCa35_mOg

[MrJan]

If you want reliable you buy a Honda. Simples.

[Arjuna]

Micra :)

If the options are between BMW and Audi, I doubt you would have enough interest on classic model of Merc W124. I never tried both of them, but the merc is obviously has bigger space, perhaps easier maintenance too. Reliability is something greatly determined by how good you drive and take care of the cars. :)

[555-04Q2]

http://www.nissaninthenews.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/nissan_gtr_image.jpg

gloomyDAY :up:

A mate of mine has just ordered the new spec GTR. WHAT A CAR!!! I'm thinking of getting one too, but don't know how to convince the wife that we need one :(

[ioan]

Many thanks to everyone for your suggestions and help. :)

Nothing has been decided yet. Tomorrow I'll see what Audi offers in response to BMW and next week will give a chance to a Renault Espace!

[ioan]

gloomyDAY :up:

A mate of mine has just ordered the new spec GTR. WHAT A CAR!!! I'm thinking of getting one too, but don't know how to convince the wife that we need one :(

You obviously don't need one! ;)

[donKey jote]

I just bought meself an S-Max yesterday :s :dozey:

[Daniel]

Poor bugger. Got winter tyres for it? :p

[donKey jote]

not yet, I'm not picking it up until Saturday and anyway it's still summer :p
I am now stuck with a set of donkey 15" summer tires on Ronal wheels and a set of winter tires though... stoopid urge shopping :arrows:
Expect to see them on ebay as soon as I work out how it works :s

[gloomyDAY]

gloomyDAY :up:

A mate of mine has just ordered the new spec GTR. WHAT A CAR!!! I'm thinking of getting one too, but don't know how to convince the wife that we need one :( Run your idea by your wife. If she likes it, then great. If not, then dump her.


You obviously don't need one! ;) Nobody needs a GT-R ioan, but we all want one.

I'm not sure why you're even considering all of these other cars unless you're planning on starting a family.

[555-04Q2]

Run your idea by your wife. If she likes it, then great. If not, then dump her.

I like the way you think :up: :p :

[555-04Q2]

You obviously don't need one! ;)

Yes I do........I'm always running late and need to get from place to place fast.........er :D

[ioan]

I just bought meself an S-Max yesterday :s :dozey:

Congrats! Why is that you are not happy with it?
I am thinking more and more about getting the Espace.

[ioan]

R
Nobody needs a GT-R ioan, but we all want one.

If I could get what I want then it wouldn't be a GT-R as I think it is ugly, I know it's only a matter of taste.
I would rather get a McLaren F1! :p

But I think I'll get stuck with an Espace for the next few years, unless I change my mind again! :D

[donKey jote]

Congrats! Why is that you are not happy with it?
I am thinking more and more about getting the Espace.
Thanks. I'll tell you tomorrow when I pick it up. :p
So far the only reason is remorse at splashing out for a new car as I didn't really need to buy a car just yet - I reckon my 10 year old Scènic donkey mobile still had at least a couple of years in it. I'm sure I'll be alright tomorrow though.

Seriously, I'm very happy with Renault (after all, they are a Formula 1 winning team and engine maker ;) :p ) but I thought the S-Max looked nicer and I couldn't afford a Ferrari :D

[ioan]

The S-Max sure looks nicer but then the Espace has more space and at least 3 individually positionable rear sits for eventual passengers.

Anyway I've got till end of June to pick one, so it may swing again.

[donKey jote]

The S-Max sure looks nicer but then the Espace has more space and at least 3 individually positionable rear sits for eventual passengers.

Anyway I've got till end of June to pick one, so it may swing again.

Just back from playing with all the gimmicks... again. So much more available now compared to 10 years ago :p

I'm happy :D
2778

[ioan]

Just back from playing with all the gimmicks... again. So much more available now compared to 10 years ago :p

I'm happy :D
2778

That's one happy donk with a mean looking Ford! :D
I knew you would like your new toy.

[odykas]

The S-Max sure looks nicer but then the Espace.

This doesn't make it pretty though!

But it's ok for a donkey. :dozey: :p :

[donKey jote]

μαλάκας :p

[odykas]

Are you getting one of these donks? :p :

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_s9x_JXX57n4/Sy7wkWTnuLI/AAAAAAAAA8U/xrGTYnEncdk/s400/pajero.jpg

[donKey jote]

err... no :p

2779

[Daniel]

To me a people carrier says that a man has given up :mark:

[555-04Q2]

To me a people carrier says that a man has given up :mark:

Yes and no. Yes because some men tell their 5 kids and wife to stop moaning and just make a plan and fit in the new sports coupe he has just bought, while other men get tired of trying to fit those 5 kids and a nagging wife into said sports coupe. The result is the much hated people carrier :p :

[ioan]

Huh?
A 200+ PS people carrier is anything but given up, it might even be teh best of both worlds, lots of power and torque and lots of place for bringing along whatever you need, like your bike(s) for example.

I've got no kids however the space a car has to offer is the first thing that interests me.

[Daniel]

Huh?
A 200+ PS people carrier is anything but given up, it might even be teh best of both worlds, lots of power and torque and lots of place for bringing along whatever you need, like your bike(s) for example.

I've got no kids however the space a car has to offer is the first thing that interests me.

You could get a saloon or estate or even a big hatchback which does the same job and at least looks good.

[odykas]

You could get a saloon or estate or even a big hatchback which does the same job and at least looks good.

+1

[donKey jote]

You could get a saloon or estate or even a big hatchback which does the same job and at least looks good.
how about the new Ford 500 people carrier :p
2781

[Daniel]

how about the new Ford 500 people carrier :p
2781

or one of these monstrosities!

I imagine it'll be very cheap! :D

http://gmotors.co.uk/news/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/2012-Fiat-Freemont.jpg

[donKey jote]

Vauxhall Zafira VXR?

http://www.netcarshow.com/vauxhall/2005-zafira_vxr/

yuck! an Opel Wichser* !! :eek: :p


*German for Pajero ;)

[ioan]

You could get a saloon or estate or even a big hatchback which does the same job and at least looks good.

Well I wish there was a Saloon or estate that can fit 2 bikes and luggage inside, and on top of it cost approx 40000 Euros.
I am having a hard time finding a car that offers a better value (quality and space) for money than the Espace.

[ioan]

yuck! an Opel Wichser* !! :eek: :p


*German for Pajero ;)

Now that's something I wouldn't pay for.

[ioan]

I would get this one without a 2nd thought, if it existed:

http://www.tuningfever.fr/pics-max-13307-252865-renault-espace-f1-team.jpg

And I bet Daniel would be happy with one of these too. :D

[Daniel]

Well I wish there was a Saloon or estate that can fit 2 bikes and luggage inside, and on top of it cost approx 40000 Euros.
I am having a hard time finding a car that offers a better value (quality and space) for money than the Espace.

Why don't you make your friends buy the boring cars and you have something nice? :p I guess it depends how much luggage you want or need to carry. Caroline and myself spent almost 2 weeks in Europe in the 500 with all the necessary luggage in a tiny little Fiat 500, I reckon we would have had another weeks worth of clothes in there if we'd needed to! Surely something bigger would be able to accomodate 2 bikes on the roof and luggage as long as people weren't bringing the kitchen sink with?

[ioan]

Why don't you make your friends buy the boring cars and you have something nice? :p I guess it depends how much luggage you want or need to carry. Caroline and myself spent almost 2 weeks in Europe in the 500 with all the necessary luggage in a tiny little Fiat 500, I reckon we would have had another weeks worth of clothes in there if we'd needed to! Surely something bigger would be able to accomodate 2 bikes on the roof and luggage as long as people weren't bringing the kitchen sink with?

I thought about that but bikes on the roof create drag and are unaesthetic.
It isn't easy for me either to give up on a lifestyle car like the A4 and instead take a family car like the Espace, but I have to say that there is little you can do with the A4 that you can't do with an Espace, this however doesn't work the other way around.

And I really hate packing stuff for holidays and deciding what to take and what not. The A4 is enough for 2 people and luggage for 2 weeks, but when you get to 4 people then the problems appear.

Checked with Audi today and the 143 HP A4 Avant with Multitronic will cost me about 41000 Euros with all the extras I need, I guess I can get it for 40000 without problem. About the same price as the BMW 318D, but with 17 centimeters longer car.
Still need to get an offer for the Espace, I think it will be approx 38000, with more extras and space.

[Daniel]

I thought about that but bikes on the roof create drag and are unaesthetic.
It isn't easy for me either to give up on a lifestyle car like the A4 and instead take a family car like the Espace, but I have to say that there is little you can do with the A4 that you can't do with an Espace, this however doesn't work the other way around.

Fair enough, but most cars can have the bikes behind as well. Just imaging the difference in drag between the A4 or whatever and the Espace every day of the week, the odd time the bikes are on the roof will make little difference.

if I have to recommend an Espace type car, you could try a Fiat Croma. Reliable and the ones with the 2.4 dismal engine will fly, plus because they're unpopular they're cheap. Put the extra money towards something fun :D

[ioan]

Fair enough, but most cars can have the bikes behind as well. Just imaging the difference in drag between the A4 or whatever and the Espace every day of the week, the odd time the bikes are on the roof will make little difference.

if I have to recommend an Espace type car, you could try a Fiat Croma. Reliable and the ones with the 2.4 dismal engine will fly, plus because they're unpopular they're cheap. Put the extra money towards something fun :D

FIAT is out of question, they never appealed to me, they don't give you neither the performance nor the image that German and French cars have.

[Daniel]

FIAT is out of question, they never appealed to me, they don't give you neither the performance nor the image that German and French cars have.

You talked about 200ps, the Croma has 200ps :)

[ioan]

You talked about 200ps, the Croma has 200ps :)

It's not same class as Espace. Serious alternatives to Espace are the Ford Galaxy and VW Sharan.
And end power is not everything as far as performance in a car, you need great torque, a good transmission to make use of the torque, then road stability, precise direction and excellent brakes.

[Rollo]

Well I wish there was a Saloon or estate that can fit 2 bikes and luggage inside, and on top of it cost approx 40000 Euros.
I am having a hard time finding a car that offers a better value (quality and space) for money than the Espace.

You can get racks which will fit onto the back of any estate which will easily take two bikes and will cost about €100.
I have a set of bike racks which used to be on the Ford Ka and now sit on the back of the Pug 206, but if you adjust the straps it will fir onto any hatchback or estate.

You could get an A4 Avant, or a Mondeo estate , or Insignia estate etc etc etc all of which will cost less than €30,000 leaving you €10,000 to spend on expensive bicycles if you want.

Example:
http://www.woolyswheels.com/shopping/images/thule_clipon9103.jpg

[555-04Q2]

Checked with Audi today and the 143 HP A4 Avant with Multitronic will cost me about 41000 Euros with all the extras I need, I guess I can get it for 40000 without problem. About the same price as the BMW 318D, but with 17 centimeters longer car.
Still need to get an offer for the Espace, I think it will be approx 38000, with more extras and space.

Damn! Cars are cheap over there :angry:

[DexDexter]

Damn! Cars are cheap over there :angry:

Look at the prices in the US. That's cheap.

[555-04Q2]

Look at the prices in the US. That's cheap.

The US is about half the price we pay here and the UK on average is about 25-30% cheaper than we pay here!

We export tens of thousands of Mercs and BMW's every year made in South Africa to Europe, Australia etc and those same cars are cheaper there then they are here! We get ripped :(

[bluegem280]

Yeah buying one from main dealer with warranty included is always good preference. Just make sure to follow term condition such as go for routine maintenance and avoid after market parts. It may void the warranty. You may need to keep the stock engine and avoid major body modification. If the car is a non turbo, you are not allowed by yourself to equip it with turbo. :)

[donKey jote]

Have you thought about buying one that is 6 months to a year old?
I don't know about the rest of Europe but in the UK brands like Audi, and BMW tend to lose about a third of their value (high end models) in the first 6 months and often a 35 grand car can be picked up for 26-28 grand in only a matter of months. I've never seen the sense of buying a brand new car in the past to be honest. Also with the money you are looking to spend you could look at the BMW 5 Series and X5 if you'd consider a preowned one. If you are worried about its history you can always buy through a main dealer with warantee's included. :)
:up:
Mine had been sitting in the dealer's room for a few months, comes with a 3 year Ford New Car guarantee whatever that means, and cost about 2/3rds of the list price. I won't say how much as I'm still a bit ashamed of myself for splashing out so much on a Ford :dozey: :p

[Daniel]

The US is about half the price we pay here and the UK on average is about 25-30% cheaper than we pay here!

We export tens of thousands of Mercs and BMW's every year made in South Africa to Europe, Australia etc and those same cars are cheaper there then they are here! We get ripped :(

I doubt the cars going to Australia are cheaper tbh.

[Daniel]

:up:
Mine had been sitting in the dealer's room for a few months, comes with a 3 year Ford New Car guarantee whatever that means, and cost about 2/3rds of the list price. I won't say how much as I'm still a bit ashamed of myself for splashing out so much on a Ford

I'm ashamed at the amount we spent on a Panda with rounder edges :p Could have got a Panda on scrappage for about £5500 so we got a 500 for £8720 :p The same car new is now £12,165 :mark: Ridonkeydiculous!

Warranty is always nice though :D

[555-04Q2]

I doubt the cars going to Australia are cheaper tbh.

Sadly, they are! A good friend of mine moved to Hamilton Island around 7 years ago and now lives on the mainland. He keeps me updated every now and then on the prices of the cars there. He bought an identical Subaru WRX STI as mine about 2 months after I did at - I think it was - about 27% less than I did! I'm still pissed about that!

[Daniel]

Sadly, they are! A good friend of mine moved to Hamilton Island around 7 years ago and now lives on the mainland. He keeps me updated every now and then on the prices of the cars there. He bought an identical Subaru WRX STI as mine about 2 months after I did at - I think it was - about 27% less than I did! I'm still pissed about that!

I was referring to the Merc's and BMW's you export :)

[555-04Q2]

I was referring to the Merc's and BMW's you export :)

It's the same with those too, but not as big a gap :(

[Rollo]

BMW 3series - the cheapest equivalent across the markets from the cheapest to the most expensive:

US - $34,600 - USD 34600 (328i)
UK - £22,695 - USD 37386 (318i)
FR - €27,450 - USD 39374 (318i)
DE - €28,900 - USD 44445 (318i)
ZA - R336,801 - USD 49620 (320i)
AU - $62,550 - USD 67774 (320i)

BMW Websites:
http://www.bmwusa.com/standard/content/vehicles/2011/3/default.aspx
http://www.bmw.co.uk/bmwuk/pricesandspecifications/0,,1156___bs-Mw%3D%3D%40bb-TEkwOA%3D%3D%40sit-bmwuk,00.html
http://www.bmw.de/de/de/newvehicles/3series/sedan/2010/showroom/index.html
http://www.bmw.fr/fr/fr/general/uic/request_for_offer/request_for_offer.html
http://www.bmw.com.au/faces/jModelComparison.jsp?first=54&tab=Pricing
http://www.bmw.co.za/virtualdealer/Default.aspx
XE Exchange Rates:
http://www.xe.com/ucc/convert/?Amount=336801&From=ZAR&To=USD

For the Scoob WRX:
ZA - R379,000 - R379,000
AU - $43,950 - R323,110
http://www.subaru.co.za/
http://www.subaru.com.au/models/wrx/wrx/sedan/pricing/

The WRX falls under the limits for the luxury car tax in Australia where as the BMW is captured by it. Every car over $57123 in Australia currently gets another 33% over that amount slapped on top of it in tax.

[555-04Q2]

BMW 3series - the cheapest equivalent across the markets from the cheapest to the most expensive:

US - $34,600 - USD 34600 (328i)
UK - £22,695 - USD 37386 (318i)
FR - €27,450 - USD 39374 (318i)
DE - €28,900 - USD 44445 (318i)
ZA - R336,801 - USD 49620 (320i)
AU - $62,550 - USD 67774 (320i)

BMW Websites:
http://www.bmwusa.com/standard/content/vehicles/2011/3/default.aspx
http://www.bmw.co.uk/bmwuk/pricesandspecifications/0,,1156___bs-Mw%3D%3D%40bb-TEkwOA%3D%3D%40sit-bmwuk,00.html
http://www.bmw.de/de/de/newvehicles/3series/sedan/2010/showroom/index.html
http://www.bmw.fr/fr/fr/general/uic/request_for_offer/request_for_offer.html
http://www.bmw.com.au/faces/jModelComparison.jsp?first=54&tab=Pricing
http://www.bmw.co.za/virtualdealer/Default.aspx
XE Exchange Rates:
http://www.xe.com/ucc/convert/?Amount=336801&From=ZAR&To=USD

For the Scoob WRX:
ZA - R379,000 - R379,000
AU - $43,950 - R323,110
http://www.subaru.co.za/
http://www.subaru.com.au/models/wrx/wrx/sedan/pricing/

The WRX falls under the limits for the luxury car tax in Australia where as the BMW is captured by it. Every car over $57123 in Australia currently gets another 33% over that amount slapped on top of it in tax.

Shows how some of us get shafted with the prices :(

[schmenke]

BMW 3series - the cheapest equivalent across the markets from the cheapest to the most expensive:

US - $34,600 - USD 34600 (328i)
UK - £22,695 - USD 37386 (318i)
FR - €27,450 - USD 39374 (318i)
DE - €28,900 - USD 44445 (318i)
ZA - R336,801 - USD 49620 (320i)
AU - $62,550 - USD 67774 (320i)
....

USD $41,500 in Canada :s

[ioan]

Have you thought about buying one that is 6 months to a year old?
I don't know about the rest of Europe but in the UK brands like Audi, and BMW tend to lose about a third of their value (high end models) in the first 6 months and often a 35 grand car can be picked up for 26-28 grand in only a matter of months. I've never seen the sense of buying a brand new car in the past to be honest. Also with the money you are looking to spend you could look at the BMW 5 Series and X5 if you'd consider a preowned one. If you are worried about its history you can always buy through a main dealer with warantee's included. :)

Has to be brand new, mid range, comfortable, diesel engined with enough power for its size and good resale rate.
For the 41000 Euro A4 Avant the Porsche Leasing predicts a resale rate of 19000 Euros after 4 years and 80000 kms, not bad.
The BMW 5 series would be great if new! :D

[ioan]

BMW 3series - the cheapest equivalent across the markets from the cheapest to the most expensive:

US - $34,600 - USD 34600 (328i)
UK - £22,695 - USD 37386 (318i)
FR - €27,450 - USD 39374 (318i)
DE - €28,900 - USD 44445 (318i)

Austria - €30650 :\ for whatever reason almost 2000 Euros up on Germany and 3000 Euros more than in France.

Anyway the listed prices are negotiable to much better prices, between 10 and 20% less.

[ioan]

All of us get shafted with the prices.

How the heck can the built in Navigation system for Audi or BMW be worth of 3000 Euros, when better navigation systems can be bought for 10% of that price?! And this is just an example.

[555-04Q2]

I once heard a great line from a BMW sales employee who, when asked by a customer why he worked for BMW when he openly admitted to them that he prefered Lexus, "Because I can take a sh!t on the showroom floor, stick a BMW badge on it, and someone will come along and buy it just because of the badge."

Classic :p :

[ioan]

He was probably right, it's a bit like the case of Apple.

Anyway the BMW sales guy was much friendlier than the Audi guy, he gave detailed explanations and was much more flexible when it went down to changing parts of the packages they had on offer.

Audi? He kept his screen for himself, didn't ever try to sell something on top of basic equipment trying to stay under the imaginary 40000 just in case I might want to add some extras and he would have to give me a higher discount then. On top of it when I asked for no chromed parts on the car he said that it is part of the package and I can not get the cheaper black parts without having to break up the package and add all part one by one for a much higher price! :\

Let's see what Renault can offer in 10 days time, probably only a much more spacious car.

[gloomyDAY]

Buy a Honda Fit.

http://www.businessweek.com/autos/autobeat/archives/2009%2520Honda%2520Fit%25202.jpg

- Fun
- Economical
- Spacious

[555-04Q2]

Buy a Honda Fit.

http://www.businessweek.com/autos/autobeat/archives/2009%2520Honda%2520Fit%25202.jpg

- Fun
- Economical
- Spacious

It's called the Jazz over here. Both are stupid names. Good car though.

[Daniel]

It's called the Jazz over here. Both are stupid names. Good car though.

If you're 60 and your name is Ethel.

[ioan]

If you're 60 and your name is Ethel.

:D :up:

Right.

For me it is either a sporty Audi or BMW or a car that really gives me space,lots of it and that is called Espace since quite a long time.

[gloomyDAY]

If you're 60 and your name is Ethel.


:D :up:

Right.Screw you guys. :laugh:

[Daniel]

The only problem with owning a BMW in the UK at least is people don't tend to give way to you or let you out at junctions and there's a special wave you're likely to see where the thumb joins the finger tips and the hand is moved from side to side.. :D

Yeah but Audi's get the same treatment nowadays ;)

[Daniel]

true. I won't have it for much longer. :)

What you getting?

[gloomyDAY]

What you getting?Honda Jazz.

[Arjuna]

It's called the Jazz over here. Both are stupid names. Good car though.
In some other region Jazz is the newer generation, Fit its predecessor.

Agree to stick image of Germany or French to the car. 318 and A3 perhaps are good at fuel consumption but it looks too small, better try 520/E39, or 320. The 3 series are better looking imo, E36 or better E46. If PSA is included into the list perhaps it has Lemans after the series name.

Being fine with current rides, dropped wifey off yesterday at a dealer and felt she doesn't mind that an old E class looks great for the next ride.

[Mark]

BMW's are ok cars, it's a pity that the accelerator is digital (i.e. it's on maximum or nothing) and they don't supply them with indicators.

[555-04Q2]

In some other region Jazz is the newer generation, Fit its predecessor.

Did not know that. Its been called the Jazz over here for the last 5 or 6 years.

[555-04Q2]

BMW's are ok cars, it's a pity that the accelerator is digital (i.e. it's on maximum or nothing) and they don't supply them with indicators.

I've owned BMW's in the past and all I can say is, bar the M3 and maybe the M5, they are the biggest load of overrated cr@p. There are far better and more reliable "drivers cars" at lower prices. You pay a premium for the "Bring Mechanic With" badge.

[Daniel]

BMW's are ok cars, it's a pity that the accelerator is digital (i.e. it's on maximum or nothing) and they don't supply them with indicators.

I thought for a moment you were saying that fly by wire accelerator's were either on or off :p

[Mark]

Most models also have adaptive cruise control. This is sophisiticated system which allows BMW drivers to follow exactly 6.5mm from the rear bumper of the car in front.

[donKey jote]

ACC is cool, Ford have it too :D

[ioan]

I thought for a moment you were saying that fly by wire accelerator's were either on or off :p

Jokes aside the one I tested was like never really accelerating no matter how much you stepped on it. My old A4 is doing better.
The new A4 multitronic come with speed variators so it gives a strange feeling when you pull away from the light and instead of the revs going up the car just keeps going faster with stable revs.

[Malbec]

I've owned BMW's in the past and all I can say is, bar the M3 and maybe the M5, they are the biggest load of overrated cr@p. There are far better and more reliable "drivers cars" at lower prices. You pay a premium for the "Bring Mechanic With" badge.

A couple of guys at work bought Z4s at nearly the same time and their conversations were almost always the same. First they'd start off talking about how great their cars were then they'd swiftly move on to what had gone wrong with them since the last time they'd talked. I know they've tried to go for the old British roadster feel a bit with the Z cars but surely they're taking things too far?

[ioan]

The Z4s are beautiful cars with good performance and that's what is important for a roadster. Then again there is better out there, if one has the right amount of money available for such.

[DexDexter]

Talking about cars, I just love the way this new Kia Optima looks. I mean it easily puts cars double its price into shade. Their head designer Peter Schreyer sure knows how to design cars.

http://network.nationalpost.com/NP/blogs/posteddriving/0429Optima.jpg

[Rollo]

I know they've tried to go for the old British roadster feel a bit with the Z cars but surely
they're taking things too far?

The Z3 looked the part more than the Z4 does in my opinion, but if the Z is supposed to stand for Zukunft or "future", then the Z1 is still the only one of then that looks like it's from the future.
As fr as I know, the Z1 didn't share a floorpan with the corresponding 3 series either.

And because no-one in the US knew how to rate those "doors", the car was never certified for the US market either.

[odykas]

Talking about cars, I just love the way this new Kia Optima looks. I mean it easily puts cars double its price into shade. Their head designer Peter Schreyer sure knows how to design cars.

http://network.nationalpost.com/NP/blogs/posteddriving/0429Optima.jpg


This is uglier than Skodas http://www.alfisti.gr/forum/images/smilies/yuk.gif http://www.alfisti.gr/forum/images/smilies/yuk.gif http://www.alfisti.gr/forum/images/smilies/yuk.gif

[Di Rishta]

ACC is cool, Ford have it too :D
My understanding Ford/Mazda is decent ride.

What advice can I expect from Opel preferably SUV user? I have a plan to change my ride and this would be my first attempt on a SUV/Chevy/Opel. Never ride it previously. I can understand it has leaf springs as it loads more besides the weight of the car itself, but my wonder because people said it has many problems.

[gloomyDAY]

Did you make up your mind yet, ioan?

[ioan]

Not yet, I'll get a quote from Renault for the Espace this week.
Deadline is end of June! I'll let you know as soon as I have made a decision, a final one! :D

[Mark]

I've been thinking that for my next car I'd quite like to have one of those Ford Powershift transmissions. i.e. A dual clutch semi-automatic system where it drives like an auto but with no fuel consumption penalty.

[Daniel]

I've been thinking that for my next car I'd quite like to have one of those Ford Powershift transmissions. i.e. A dual clutch semi-automatic system where it drives like an auto but with no fuel consumption penalty.

There have been "auto" boxes which drive without the fuel consumption penalty for ages. Their called robotised manuals :)

For the cost of said transmission you will most likely never get that money back in improved fuel consumption especially considering that you don't really keep hold of cars for that long.

[Mark]

Sure. But the important thing is that fuel consumption is no worse than a manual. Of course there is a purchase price to pay for the system

[Robinho]

Talking about cars, I just love the way this new Kia Optima looks. I mean it easily puts cars double its price into shade. Their head designer Peter Schreyer sure knows how to design cars.

http://network.nationalpost.com/NP/blogs/posteddriving/0429Optima.jpg

that is quite smart isn't it. The new MG6 isn't ugly either, but i have no doubt it'l be crap underneath

[Daniel]

Sure. But the important thing is that fuel consumption is no worse than a manual. Of course there is a purchase price to pay for the system

But spending lets say.... £600 (just a ballpark figure) to save £200 (most probably less) doesn't make sense. If you're going to keep it long enough to have a return on your investment then it makes sense. Speccing up a car to merely get rid 3,4 or 5 years later is the biggest waste of money I can think of! :)

[Daniel]

At the moment the dual clutch box in the Focus uses wet clutches which means that the car isn't as efficient as the manual as it's a wet clutch system as opposed to the more efficient dry clutch system.

[Mark]

They are bringing out a new version which uses dry clutches. Already available on Fiesta models in the USA. I guess it will be on all models when I'm looking to buy in 2-3 years time.

[Daniel]

As Ody says, don't waste your money, but pizza's with it :p

[Daniel]

Oh and I just checked up on the Ford site, it's £1,255 just for the box. If we say that it's going to save 5%on your fuel bill then you need to spend about 25k on fuel just to break even. But then again I did say that you wouldn't save any money by going to a dismal Fester and you didn't listen then :p

[Mark]

What do you mean save on fuel? I wouldn't imagine it would save any fuel at all.

[Daniel]

What do you mean save on fuel? I wouldn't imagine it would save any fuel at all.

A proper DDCT box will save a little fuel due to smaller gaps between shifts and the fact that the gears are split over two different shafts so each individual shaft is lighter. £1255 though! For some paddles behind the steering wheel it's a ripoff if you're not keeping the car long term :) Get leather upholstery, a nicer set of wheels and a decent colour :)

[Mark]

Flappy paddles aren't included in that price :p

[Daniel]

Flappy paddles aren't included in that price :p

and you're seriously considering a powershift box? Seriously, give me the money if it's burning a hole in your pocket ;)

[donKey jote]

Powershift and ACC... sit back and enjoy the view :D

[Daniel]

Powershift and ACC... sit back and enjoy the view :D

Lazy :p

I originally specced climate on the 500 and then I realised that money could be better spent on nicer wheels :p The AC is no more powerful anyway if it's automatic.

[airshifter]

Sure. But the important thing is that fuel consumption is no worse than a manual. Of course there is a purchase price to pay for the system

Some of the newer US spec cars have higher MPG with the DCT tranny over the manual. Gear ratios, lack of shift lag and such help them out. And on top of that you only shift manually if you want to. ;)

[Mark]

Some of the robotised manuals that have been out for many years got bad reviews as they basically just had an ordinary manual box but with some actuators to replicate pressing the clutch and moving the gear stick, so they had slow changes and didn't drive very well. The powershift system using the dual clutch mechanism seems to be that type of system done properly, so you have the advantages of an auto transmission but with none of the penalties you get with a torque converter system.

Do I need an auto? No of course not, but neither am I religiously tied to manual transmissions either. And I'm certainly a sucker for a gadget, so this is right up my street :p

As for not keeping cars for very long, well I'm only on my second one! I had my first for 4.5 years and 35k, I've had my current one for 2.5 years and 60k I still think of it as my new car! So unless there are serious problems I don't see me getting another for 2-3 years at least. Unless family demands mean a change of plan :p

[ioan]

Dual clutch or variators are the way to go.
I am not 100% happy with my A4 however the Multitronic gearbox is tops and it makes a big difference whatever type of driver you are.

[ioan]

Not yet decided on my next drive, I still have to check the Espace on Monday.

However I know what I will not take, especially with my driving style it would be suicide:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJU2vhKHaTA&NR=1

[Firstgear]

Not yet decided on my next drive, I still have to check the Espace on Monday.



Make up your mind already, man.
Many people don't take the time & research to pick a spouse that you do with a car. :p :

[ioan]

Make up your mind already, man.
Many people don't take the time & research to pick a spouse that you do with a car. :p :

They are free to divorce whenever they wish, I'll keep the car for 4 years so it has to be the right one! :D
I have one month left to decide, quite a luxury. ;)

[ioan]

Looks more and more likely that it will be a Renault Grand Espace Initiale 2.0 dCi 175 PS.
I am working on the details right now.
Have still to decide if it will have the panoramic glass roof, and then the color of the car is not easy to pick with what they offer in Austria.
I wanted Karminat Red but it is not available anymore. Then I asked what Tahoe Blue looks like but they had none in that color, Grey, Black and Silver do not appeal at all, and for white the seller didn't know if the whole car is painted white of if the plastic bits on the outside of the car will be white or left black (like it is shown in their configurator).
It's rather stupid given that they offer up to 20 colors for other models yet the espace gets 6 including white, black, grey, tahoe blue, champagne and silver.

Anyone have seen or have picture with a Renault Espace in tahoe blue color?

[Malbec]

Looks more and more likely that it will be a Renault Grand Espace Initiale 2.0 dCi 175 PS.
I am working on the details right now.
Have still to decide if it will have the panoramic glass roof, and then the color of the car is not easy to pick with what they offer in Austria.
I wanted Karminat Red but it is not available anymore. Then I asked what Tahoe Blue looks like but they had none in that color, Grey, Black and Silver do not appeal at all, and for white the seller didn't know if the whole car is painted white of if the plastic bits on the outside of the car will be white or left black (like it is shown in their configurator).
It's rather stupid given that they offer up to 20 colors for other models yet the espace gets 6 including white, black, grey, tahoe blue, champagne and silver.

Anyone have seen or have picture with a Renault Espace in tahoe blue color?

Good choice ioan.

Most people buy a car as a penis extension. With an MPV you show you don't need a penis extension because your tackle is already working too well... the bigger the MPV the better your tackle is working!

Good tactic, you'll be beating the chicks off with a stick soon.

[ioan]

Good choice ioan.

Most people buy a car as a penis extension. With an MPV you show you don't need a penis extension because your tackle is already working too well... the bigger the MPV the better your tackle is working!

Good tactic, you'll be beating the chicks off with a stick soon.

:laugh:

Funniest thing though is that I have no kids and no plans for having some either! :D
I need this car in order to make my life easier by not having to trim down my, and/or my girlfriend's luggage, to be able to throw in the bikes any time without the need of having them attached on top/behind the car (I guess on top is to high on the Espace anyway).
Plus I am having enough of stiff cars that kill you on a 1000 km trip, where you feel even the slightest imperfection on the road surface.
Not to mention that the 175 PS and 360 Nm get me up to 100km/h in less than 10 seconds anyway, a bit slower then a Porsche and even then my A4 but still faster then the Fiat 500 1.4 16V! :p

And did I mention all that space inside? That's something chicks will love! :D

[555-04Q2]

Good choice ioan.

Most people buy a car as a penis extension. With an MPV you show you don't need a penis extension because your tackle is already working too well... the bigger the MPV the better your tackle is working!

Good tactic, you'll be beating the chicks off with a stick soon.

Well then I must have a minus 9 incher :p :

[ioan]

Small update.
After having a difficult time deciding what to do, especially during my last week's holidays in the mountains where the A4 was a pure driving pleasure machine, I finally decided and now the Renault Grand Espace with a few extras, like the huge opening panorama roof, leather seats and so on, has been ordered.
Delivery will be in 4 months. I hope that its 175 PS and 360 Nm will provide enough driving pleasure, along with the huge space for my bike, to keep me happy for the next 4 years then we will see what's next.

[Daniel]

Small update.
After having a difficult time deciding what to do, especially during my last week's holidays in the mountains where the A4 was a pure driving pleasure machine, I finally decided and now the Renault Grand Espace with a few extras, like the huge opening panorama roof, leather seats and so on, has been ordered.
Delivery will be in 4 months. I hope that its 175 PS and 360 Nm will provide enough driving pleasure, along with the huge space for my bike, to keep me happy for the next 4 years then we will see what's next.

Good luck :) I have to say after having a leather interior in the 500 I don't think I'd go without leather or something special like alcantara in any other cars :)

[Garry Walker]

Small update.
After having a difficult time deciding what to do, especially during my last week's holidays in the mountains where the A4 was a pure driving pleasure machine, I finally decided and now the Renault Grand Espace with a few extras, like the huge opening panorama roof, leather seats and so on, has been ordered.
Delivery will be in 4 months. I hope that its 175 PS and 360 Nm will provide enough driving pleasure, along with the huge space for my bike, to keep me happy for the next 4 years then we will see what's next.

How much did you pay for it?

[ioan]

How much did you pay for it?

Nothing yet, as it's a leasing contract. The negotiated price is just under 40000 Euro (catalogue price would have been a bit over 50000).

I am already thinking about getting some larger wheels and maybe lowering it a couple cms along with stiffening the suspensions just a lil' bit, after the winter.

[gloomyDAY]

Nothing yet, as it's a leasing contract. The negotiated price is just under 40000 Euro (catalogue price would have been a bit over 50000).

I am already thinking about getting some larger wheels and maybe lowering it a couple cms along with stiffening the suspensions just a lil' bit, after the winter.40,000 Euros?!

Should have gone with an Audi estate.

[ioan]

40,000 Euros?!

Should have gone with an Audi estate.

I have an Audi estate, it's even more expensive and smaller.

According to me BMW, has the easiest to use and understand controls. I have also read that interior quality of BMW's, Wheels carmagazine and being an Australian MAG they normally bash german cars and never normally make things up - cept when saying australian cars are better and the Audi's system is ok, except the monitor is positioned a little to low.

[gloomyDAY]

I have an Audi estate, it's even more expensive and smaller.Man! What a rip-off.

[ioan]

Well, I checked BMW, Audi and Renault exactly in this order.

The series 3 BMW is the smallest car of the 3. Catalog price for my config was 46000, after a discount it was 40000.
The Audi A4, fairly larger then the BMW, approximately same configuration 46000, after discount 41500.
The Renault Grand Espace, by far the largest, better config than the previous two for 50000, after discount only 40000. It sure isn't in the same league when we compare driving dynamics, however I drive on twisty mountain roads only 1000 kms a year, the rest is city or highway and the Renault can master those really well too.

Anyway as you say cars are not cheap on this side of the world, real rip offs! ;)

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Nothing yet, as it's a leasing contract. The negotiated price is just under 40000 Euro (catalogue price would have been a bit over 50000).

I am already thinking about getting some larger wheels and maybe lowering it a couple cms along with stiffening the suspensions just a lil' bit, after the winter.

Why would you want to ruin the ride quality of your car?

[ioan]

Why would you want to ruin the ride quality of your car?

After the Audi it feels very soft, maybe I'll get used to it and I don't change anything, but there is a lot of room to improve it's dynamics without losing the ride quality of a boat!

[gloomyDAY]

Anyway as you say cars are not cheap on this side of the world, real rip offs! ;) ioan, buddy! I can help you with this dilemma.

Since cars are so expensive over there, then just wire me 40,000 dollars and I'll buy you an Audi A4. There will be plenty of money left over to ship it for you and my fee. All you have to do is trust me. :D

[Brown, Jon Brow]

After the Audi it feels very soft, maybe I'll get used to it and I don't change anything, but there is a lot of room to improve it's dynamics without losing the ride quality of a boat!

Renaults are tradionally soft and comfortable. The Espace is probaly the most comfortable way to transport a family. I'd be very wary of modifying a car and ruining the millions of euros worth of development Renault out into the car.

[Daniel]

After the Audi it feels very soft, maybe I'll get used to it and I don't change anything, but there is a lot of room to improve it's dynamics without losing the ride quality of a boat!

Depends if you just want to change springs or dampers as well. Koni do an FSD kit, FSD's are fantastic dampers.

[Daniel]

Renaults are tradionally soft and comfortable. The Espace is probaly the most comfortable way to transport a family. I'd be very wary of modifying a car and ruining the millions of euros worth of development Renault out into the car.

I somehow doubt that Ioan is going to slam it or something stupid, speaking of millions of euros worth of development, why the **** couldn't Fiat make some decent suspension for my 500?

[Brown, Jon Brow]

I somehow doubt that Ioan is going to slam it or something stupid, speaking of millions of euros worth of development, why the **** couldn't Fiat make some decent suspension for my 500?

They made it too a price. :p
The Espace is Renaults flagship.

My Punto has better ride quality at higher speed than at town speed :\

[Brown, Jon Brow]

I somehow doubt that Ioan is going to slam it or something stupid, speaking of millions of euros worth of development, why the **** couldn't Fiat make some decent suspension for my 500?

They made it too a price. :p

My Punto has better ride quality at higher speed than at town speed :\

[Daniel]

They made it too a price. :p

My Punto has better ride quality at higher speed than at town speed :\

No, the suspension is ****. I've driven cars made at a price and none have such pitifully sheet damping as my 500. Some of the suspension parts are very cheaply made indeed.

[Roamy]

ioan your a mercedes man - what is the holdup???

[Malbec]

I am already thinking about getting some larger wheels and maybe lowering it a couple cms along with stiffening the suspensions just a lil' bit, after the winter.

ioan I've just switched from a very sporty car to a Skoda Octavia and believe me, you'll just adjust and learn to love the new dynamics before you know it so I'd wait before doing your car up. Before my car was delivered I was looking up all sorts of chipping and suspension tweaks but actually, it just ain't worth it.

Plus with my unfashionable high profile wheels I've just realised its almost impossible to kerb the alloys.

[Daniel]

ioan I've just switched from a very sporty car to a Skoda Octavia and believe me, you'll just adjust and learn to love the new dynamics before you know it so I'd wait before doing your car up. Before my car was delivered I was looking up all sorts of chipping and suspension tweaks but actually, it just ain't worth it.

Plus with my unfashionable high profile wheels I've just realised its almost impossible to kerb the alloys.

The Subaru comes with that feature too! Tis rather useful. Plus you can get decent tyres for 60-70 pounds as opposed to the silly money you'll pay for a wide low profile 17 or 18" tyre....

I think with a Skoda it probably helps that VW would have loosened the purse strings and actually spent money on the suspension.

[Malbec]

I think with a Skoda it probably helps that VW would have loosened the purse strings and actually spent money on the suspension.

Doesn't stop it from understeering like a barge though...

[Daniel]

Doesn't stop it from understeering like a barge though...

Understeer is safe though.

My 500 is all too happy to get the rear end out if you hit a bump mid corner or choose to brake in anything but a straight line at speed or if you brake really hard in a straight line :p

[ioan]

ioan I've just switched from a very sporty car to a Skoda Octavia and believe me, you'll just adjust and learn to love the new dynamics before you know it so I'd wait before doing your car up. Before my car was delivered I was looking up all sorts of chipping and suspension tweaks but actually, it just ain't worth it.

Plus with my unfashionable high profile wheels I've just realised its almost impossible to kerb the alloys.

I will certainly no chance anything form the first 5 months at least. Ehen I will beide hat is needed if anything.

[Daniel]

I will certainly no chance anything form the first 5 months at least. Ehen I will beide hat is needed if anything.

Interesting post Ioan :p

[ioan]

:eek: Oh crap, this tablet with it's German settings (and German intuitive dictionary) is killing me. Will change the settings to English, it will be less hilarious.

Anyway, the idea is that:

I will not change anything for the first 5 months at least. Then I will decide what is needed if anything.

[ioan]

:eek: Oh crap, this tablet with it's German settings (and German intuitive dictionary) is killing me. Will change the settings to English, it will be less embarrassing.

Anyway, the idea is that:

I will certainly not change anything for the first 5 months at least. Then I will decide what is needed if anything.

[ioan]

ioan your a mercedes man - what is the holdup???

Merecedes man? Not really even though their latest models are really nice, but then the Viano is no way a match for the Grand Espace, not to mention the higher price.

[ioan]

Renaults are tradionally soft and comfortable. The Espace is probaly the most comfortable way to transport a family. I'd be very wary of modifying a car and ruining the millions of euros worth of development Renault out into the car.

Honestly I would have given up the 1800 Euro panoramic roof and some other extras if I could have chosen an adaptative suspension like the one on the C5, the faster you go the stiffer it gets in order to give you the safest handling. with that the Espace would be 99.99% perfect, now it is around 95%

[Gregor-y]

The Subaru comes with that feature too! Tis rather useful. Plus you can get decent tyres for 60-70 pounds as opposed to the silly money you'll pay for a wide low profile 17 or 18" tyre....
It depends a lot on the car's design. Too many cars today have sides so tall 16 inch wheels look tiny. Luckily my old Subaru isn't one of them.

[driveace]

Panoramic roof on C class Merc is only about £1200,and well worth it.

[ioan]

Panoramic roof on C class Merc is only about £1200,and well worth it.

I agree the panoramic roof is great on pretty much any car, however IMO they should offer such roof after they offer a great suspension option.
Then again you can hardly compare the size of the Class C and the Grand Espace, same for the panoramic roofs. The only comparable part of these two cars is the price.

The funniest part, and I thought a lot about this, is that as a driver I won't really take advantage of the view given by that roof.

[Daniel]

I agree. We've got a fixed glass roof and it's fantastic.

[donKey jote]

The funniest part, and I thought a lot about this, is that as a driver I won't really take advantage of the view given by that roof.
you need ACC too ;) :arrows: :dozey: :p

[ioan]

You mean air conditioning?! I guess it is standard, with separate zones for driver and co-driver and also for the passengers at the rear.

[donKey jote]

no :dozey:
Adaptive Cruise Control, means you can take your eyes off the road more often :erm: :uhoh: :arrows: :bandit:

[Mia 01]

If you got the money, buy one!

[Malbec]

I agree the panoramic roof is great on pretty much any car, however IMO they should offer such roof after they offer a great suspension option.
Then again you can hardly compare the size of the Class C and the Grand Espace, same for the panoramic roofs. The only comparable part of these two cars is the price.

The funniest part, and I thought a lot about this, is that as a driver I won't really take advantage of the view given by that roof.

You could argue that with the weight gain at the top of the car needed to strengthen it to have a panoramic roof, you'd have noticed some improved handling if you deleted that option regardless of what the suspension setup is?

[ioan]

You could argue that with the weight gain at the top of the car needed to strengthen it to have a panoramic roof, you'd have noticed some improved handling if you deleted that option regardless of what the suspension setup is?

Good point.
I am curious if indeed they did reinforce the top of the car for the panoramic roof? Have to check it out.

[ioan]

no :dozey:
Adaptive Cruise Control, means you can take your eyes off the road more often :erm: :uhoh: :arrows:

Never though about that one, not a bad idea, sometimes I really need to slow down to check out some things, this could help a lot and my gf wouldn't even notice that I am not watching the road! :D

[donKey jote]

Not any old simple cruise control... the one that accelerates and brakes depending on the set speed and the distance and relative speed of the vehicle in front.

It also primes the brakes for an emergency braking... even when turned "off" :p

Mine only works up to 180kph... I guess it has something to do with the radar range and the time it needs to react :bandit:

Ioan: get it if you can. As a van driver I'm sure you'll appreciate it more than most ;) :p

[ioan]

I agree with you and ioan on this one. Cruise control is a great feature and allows you to catch up on some valuable sleep (briefly of course) on the way to work on the straighter motorways. Afterall we have rumble strips for cars going off line.

Honestly I stop as soon as I realize that I had a fraction of a second when I was not fully awake, the danger of even closing your eyes when tired is huge.

[ioan]

Not any old simple cruise control... the one that accelerates and brakes depending on the set speed and the distance and relative speed of the vehicle in front.

It also primes the brakes for an emergency braking... even when turned "off" :p

Mine only works up to 180kph... I guess it has something to do with the radar range and the time it needs to react :bandit:

Ioan: get it if you can. As a van driver I'm sure you'll appreciate it more than most ;) :p

That might be true, however I am a very active driver, and even when I turn on the cruise control (about 140 - 145 km/h) on the Audi the name of the game is to make up time on the GPS arrival prediction. I never wait to get stuck behind another car or truck, I rather keep changing lanes to keep the car at cruise speed and also limit the fuel consumption.

Anyway I need to check if it is at all available on the Grand Espace in Austria, it didn't catch my eye when I went through the options several times before my final order. There is definitely cruise control but adaptive? Gonna check it now.

[Daniel]

Honestly I stop as soon as I realize that I had a fraction of a second when I was not fully awake, the danger of even closing your eyes when tired is huge.

I very much doubt that Henners drives tired either :)

I've only ever driven tired twice and it's not good. Once was about 3am in the morning driving home after a night at a friends. It wasn't too bad because the roads were absolutely empty and I just talked to myself to keep myself awake. The other time was after taking the ferry across to France at some silly hour of the morning, I was tired when I left Calais, but after an hour or two I felt as if I would just fall asleep without warning. NOT GOOD!!!!

[donKey jote]

That might be true, however I am a very active driver, and even when I turn on the cruise control (about 140 - 145 km/h) on the Audi the name of the game is to make up time on the GPS arrival prediction. I never wait to get stuck behind another car or truck, I rather keep changing lanes to keep the car at cruise speed and also limit the fuel consumption.

You can also adjust the distance it locks in at. I guess the BMW or Audi versions would allow you to tailgate and automatically flash the lights. :p
Mine just slows for the slower donkeys who appear in front of me while I'm looking through the panoramic roof with my legs crossed and accelerates back up to the set speed (in my case normally 85-100 :andrea: ) when they move out the way or when I actively change lanes. :)

[ioan]

You can also adjust the distance it locks in at. I guess the BMW or Audi versions would allow you to tailgate and automatically flash the lights. :p

Damn it looks like Audi double crossed me on my A4, it definitely doesn't do all that. :( ;)

85 - 100? Mph I guess, otherwise even the trucks will run over you in Germany!

[ioan]

I very much doubt that Henners drives tired either :)

I certainly hope he was sarcastic! :)

[ioan]

Err yeah I was.. ;)

If you met me in real life you'd know I keep a very straight face when saying such things lol. :)

Maybe one day, who knows?!

[donKey jote]

85 - 100? Mph I guess, otherwise even the trucks will run over you in Germany!

No, 100 kph, means I can catch up on my UK TV while doing 85 behind the trucks. ;) :p
Saves fuel too. In fact, it's the only way to get anywhere near the official figures for the "ECOboost" engine :dozey:

[Daniel]

No, 100 kph, means I can catch up on my UK TV while doing 85 behind the trucks. ;) :p
Saves fuel too. In fact, it's the only way to get anywhere near the official figures for the "ECOboost" engine :dozey:

My 500 gets near the official figures if driven carefully :p

heck there's a guy who gets 60mpg out of a petrol 500. Silly guy took the alloys that the car came with off and put narrower tyres on steel wheels on :mark: Quite an extreme way to be more economical but it works.

Maybelline (Fiat 500) | Fuelly (http://www.fuelly.com/driver/jrkitching/500)

[Daniel]

Has that guy seriously analysed his fuel usuage and produced graphs to illustrate how many miles he gets out of his Fiat 500??!!! He needs to get a bloody life!! Pass that on for me. ;)

no, you simply put how many litres of fuel you put in, the odometer reading and the cost of the fuel. The website does the rest.

500 (Fiat 500) | Fuelly (http://www.fuelly.com/driver/306maxi/500) here's mine

[Daniel]

Nope, you simply put the amount of litres you put in, the odometer reading and if you want, the price of the fuel :)

Here's mine 500 (Fiat 500) | Fuelly (http://www.fuelly.com/driver/306maxi/500)

[ioan]

Seeing that I will get nowhere near 60mpg with the Espace ( or the A4 for that matter) I didn't really took care of consumption during last weeks holidays, and man was the A4 flying on those twisty roads! 3 1/2 half months left to make the most of it before the boat arrives.

Then again 10 hours / 500 kms with 5 people and luggage on board proved that the choosing a bigger car was right.

[Daniel]

Seeing that I will get nowhere near 60mpg with the Espace ( or the A4 for that matter) I didn't really took care of consumption during last weeks holidays, and man was the A4 flying on those twisty roads! 3 1/2 half months left to make the most of it before the boat arrives.

Then again 10 hours / 500 kms with 5 people and luggage on board proved that the choosing a bigger car was right.

You need less friends, or to get some friends who have cars :p Seriously if you bought yourself a Fiat 500 you wouldn't have these problems because you'd never have to play taxi! ;)

[ioan]

I think I should just stop visiting family every year, as I can't just tell them to bugger off when they ask me to visit relatives together! :D

[555-04Q2]

Seeing that I will get nowhere near 60mpg with the Espace ( or the A4 for that matter) I didn't really took care of consumption during last weeks holidays, and man was the A4 flying on those twisty roads! 3 1/2 half months left to make the most of it before the boat arrives.

Then again 10 hours / 500 kms with 5 people and luggage on board proved that the choosing a bigger car was right.

500 km's in 10 hours :s hock: What were you doing, driving with the handbrake on? :p :

I do the 580 km Durban to Johannesburg trip on our N3 highway in 5 hours, with the handbrake disengaged of coures ;)

[Daniel]

500 km's in 10 hours :s hock: What were you doing, driving with the handbrake on? :p :

I do the 580 km Durban to Johannesburg trip on our N3 highway in 5 hours, with the handbrake disengaged of coures ;)

Well he did say twisty roads and with 5 people and luggage you don't want to be chucking it around.

[schmenke]

By comparison the family recently drove about 350kms in about 5 hours, with a van stuffed with camping gear, towing a tent-trailer (~1,000kgs) in about 5 hours :mark: . Keep in mind the number of, ah, pit-stops on such a road trip increases exponentially with the number of kids in the car :s .

[555-04Q2]

The only way to do a car trip...Fill and check the car the day before. Wife and kids take a pee before you leave. Pack light snacks and entertainment for the trip. Get in the car, get there and have fun.

Even on twisty and heavily regulated roads I manage to average about 100 km/h safely. My 2 boys and wife know not to muck about on a car trip. The only exception is when we want to take a trip along the coast, we usually take a little longer and make a few sight seeing stops.

[ioan]

500 km's in 10 hours :s hock: What were you doing, driving with the handbrake on? :p :

I do the 580 km Durban to Johannesburg trip on our N3 highway in 5 hours, with the handbrake disengaged of coures ;)

Well it was only 7 hours on the 480 kms of twisty roads + 2.5 hours (300 km on the highway in Hungary) but still you will be hard pressed doing better than 70 km/h on a twisty road where you are half time driving through villages with 50 km/h limitation.
Went over 4000 rpm a few times to overtake some groups of 3 to 4 cars with some tourists who were trundling around, I guess they were used to rather straight highways cause they were going 30 km/h in each blind turn.

On one occasion I could have shot (if I had a gun) an idiot driving an X5 BMW who blocked me on a 2 lane uphill section and didn't go one bit faster then the trucks in the slower lane.

[ioan]

By comparison the family recently drove about 350kms in about 5 hours, with a van stuffed with camping gear, towing a tent-trailer (~1,000kgs) in about 5 hours :mark: . Keep in mind the number of, ah, pit-stops on such a road trip increases exponentially with the number of kids in the car :s .

My GF is such one that needs a stop every 100 kms, but she is slowly learning that I hate to stop so often! BTW there were no kids, just adults in the car and the 3 of them at the back were not having a great time in the sharp turns! :D They will love the Espace more than I will!

[ioan]

Even on twisty and heavily regulated roads I manage to average about 100 km/h safely.

You'll need a road trip to Transylvania at the beginning of August when cars are literally lined up every 50 meters and doing 50 to 70 km/h, that will teach you some patience! :D

[555-04Q2]

You'll need a road trip to Transylvania at the beginning of August when cars are literally lined up every 50 meters and doing 50 to 70 km/h, that will teach you some patience! :D

:laugh: :D

[ioan]

:laugh: :D

I wish it was that funny when being in the middle of it all! :D

[555-04Q2]

I wish it was that funny when being in the middle of it all! :D

It's funny from where I'm sitting ;) :p :

[ioan]

The boat, I mean car, arrived today.
First impression is that it is huge and comfy (I packed everything from the A4 into it and it still looks empty).
Second impression is that I will need a lot of practice to use the strange controls (luckily half of them are automated), not as intuitive as the A4 was.
Third impression is that while it has good acceleration it doesn't give you almost any feedback while driving aggressively (on this one I will miss the old A4's hardcore soul a lot).
Fourth impression is that the SUV are not being so bullish anymore about their chances to cut in front of me without checking twice! This one is positive.

PS: The A4 had it's last service last week and Audi again refused to find the engine/turbo problem that I kept pointing out for 2 years now. Crap customer service.

[donKey jote]

congrats on your new bus ioan :up:

hope you don't miss ACC ;) :D

[ioan]

congrats on your new bus ioan :up:

Thanks! I call it a space ship! ;)


hope you don't miss ACC ;) :D

Would have been great to have tonight when I drove home after 11 hours of work. :D

BTW the missus loves it, she doesn't need anymore to hold tight in the sharper turns. But she already knows that she will never drive it.

[donKey jote]

11 hours of work is against EU Law... 10:45 maximum, and then you need to rest 10 hours before you start again :p

BTW I bet she does... have you changed the mattress yet? :eek: :bandit:

[ioan]

11 hours of work is against EU Law... 10:45 maximum, and then you need to rest 10 hours before you start again :p

Laws only exist to be broken. ;)


BTW I bet she does... have you changed the mattress yet? :eek: :bandit:

I didn't find one in the car?! But that's a great idea to put one in there, especially as I do not need the rear seats! :D

[donKey jote]

Laws only exist to be broken. ;)
you Southern European you :p

Say you have an accident driving home after >10:45 work in my part of Europe... you and your boss have a LOT of explaining to do. Health & Safety gone bonkers I tell you ! :p

[CaptainRaiden]

Factory workers are often contracted to 12 hour shifts in the UK. :)

I have worked 14 hour shifts in India, and no, I don't work in a factory. Anyway, 9 hour shifts are the norm.

We don't have the nice regulations like in EU and USA, we work on a Saturday too. I only hope the one extra day of work helps the economy. :p

[CaptainRaiden]

Thanks! I call it a space ship! ;)

Pardon my laziness for not reading through the thread, ioan, but which car have you just wasted your money on? :p :D

[Malbec]

Thanks! I call it a space ship! ;)

And not a passion wagon? Hope your missus isn't too disappointed ;)

[ioan]

Pardon my laziness for not reading through the thread, ioan, but which car have you just wasted your money on? :p :D

Just a Grand Espace!

[ioan]

And not a passion wagon? Hope your missus isn't too disappointed ;)

She's happy, even happier than I am.

[donKey jote]

Factory workers are often contracted to 12 hour shifts in the UK.
Sure enough, the UK opted out on this one too :)

You wouldn't want any out of touch Brussels Bürocrats telling you how to improve your worker's productivity in the long term by keeping them healthier now would you... H&S gone mad I tell you. Unions through the back door that would be, or worse! Ze Germans impozing zeir Konditionen on ze Rest of Europe :vader: ... leave our glorious and world famous UK Manufacturing Industry alone, we know better, we invented factories in the first place ! :p
I wonder how those stoopid Germans manage though. Made in Germany anyone?

there... does that count as a donkey rant? :p

[donKey jote]

Pardon my laziness for not reading through the thread, ioan, but which car have you just wasted your money on? :p :D
it's not a car, it's a mini-bus ;) :p

[janneppi]

I call them Schützenpanzers. :D

[ioan]

I call them Schützenpanzers. :D

Well it works really good, any time I need to change lane I don't need more than use the blinkers and they make place!
No more SUVs trying to run me off the road. ;)

[Bolton Midnight]

Sorry haven't read all the thread, but if you like a 3 series Tourer but want more room why not go for a 5 series Tourer?

[ioan]

Sorry haven't read all the thread, but if you like a 3 series Tourer but want more room why not go for a 5 series Tourer?

Because the 5 series tourer barely offers more room, for quite a hefty price tag.
Anyways the Grand Espace took care of the room problem for the right price! :)

Went for a drive in the mountains yesterday evening and it felt good, will need some more time to get better accustomed to the dynamics of the Espace but I was satisfied for a first outing.

[ioan]

Thought I'd update on this one.

The Whale is doing fine, got a bit over 7000 kms in 6 weeks of use. This allowed me to get used to it and have to say that it's an impressively good car with great handling on the mountain roads, certainly better than expected. A bit lay uphill but that's my only complaint about it's road behavior.

On the downside it takes some time to get used to its consumption, fuel and windshield washer liquid, especially the later. I topped it up twice in 6 weeks and it's empty again. The A4 on the other hand was doing fine on only one filling per year!!! And the windshield wipers do a crap job too, worst I ever saw.

That being said I am certainly happy with it, and already order two bike racks to fix bikes inside the car for the spring. Funny part is I received a bike storage rack and a pair off shoes instead of the 2nd rack, but that's another story.