BTCC: Donington Park, Rounds 4, 5 & 6

[VkmSpouge]

First practice has been completed and it is a familiar story at the top of the field with Andrew Jordan leading the way. James Nash and Jeff Smith also in the top five so the Vauxhalls are looking good at this early stage.
http://www.btcc.net/html/generalnews_detail.php?id=2356
http://www.tsl-timing.com/?loc=major&season=2011&series=BTCC&event=races&source=toca2006&eventid=111503&table=111503fp1trg&tabletype=gif

Looking at the speed traps so far Tom Onslow-Cole is 10mph down on Tom Boardman with essentially the same engine. Two meetings in a row. AmD must be scratching their heads over this.

Good to see Frank Wrathall, Tony Hughes and Rob Austin getting some decent practice under their belts. Wrathall already well clear of Hughes, James and Austin and closing in on John George and Nick Foster.

[Eurotech]

Tony Gilhams car now sadly looks a bit of a mess due to the sponsorship issues he's been having. Shame.

Good to see the Vectras doing well, James Nash impressive once again and Jeff Smith right on the pace this time. Shame to see the Chevys struggling for pace but I'm sure they'll bounce back a bit in the races. Good to see the Audi out aswell, looking much better now the RAR logo matches the body colour now :)

[Alfa Fan]

Where have you seen pictures of Gilham's car?

[Eurotech]

http://www.facebook.com/home.php#!/photo.php?fbid=10150227225630211&set=a.10150227225470211.349496.378366785210&type=1&theater

...And James Nash's car now looks like a Taxi with that white bonnet :L

[Alfa Fan]

Thanks. Looks like its crashed into a sticker factory, much like the Ford.

[VkmSpouge]

Second practice has finished with James Nash on top ahead of Tom Chilton and Tom Boardman. Frank Wrathall now faster than John George, I wonder how much quicker he can get the Toyota Avensis to go?
http://www.tsl-timing.com/?loc=major&season=2011&series=BTCC&event=races&source=toca2006&eventid=111503&table=111503fp2trg&tabletype=gif

[DazzlaF1]

GRID FOR TOMORROW (Those in bold using the turbocharged NGTC engines)

ROW 1: 1st Matt Neal, 2nd Gordon Shedden
ROW 2: 3rd James Nash, 4th, Andrew Jordan
ROW 3: 5th Tom Chilton, 6th Jeff Smith
ROW 4: 7th Mat Jackson, 8th Jason Plato
ROW 5: 9th Alex MacDowall, 10th Rob Collard
ROW 6: 11th Paul O'Neill, 12th Tom Boardman
ROW 7: 13th Tony Gilham, 14th Andy Neate
ROW 8: 15th Liam Griffin, 16th Tom-Onslow Cole
ROW 9: 17th Nick Foster, 18th John George
ROW 10: 19th Dave Newsham, 20th Frank Wrathall
ROW 11: 21st Rob Austin, 22nd Chris James
ROW 12: 23rd Tony Hughes

As for the NGTC cars, Wrathall was only 2.3 off pole and that Audi A4 has a lot of early promise as it looks quick and reliable (As well as gorgeous in that retro Audi livery) big improvements on last time out

[VkmSpouge]

The Hondas are in a class of their own at the moment, I hope the Vauxhalls can mug them off the line. I have to say I think the star of the session was rookie, Jeff Smith, he has looked very good so far this weekend and he got a very good 6th place on the grid to show for it.

Nice to see Frank Wrathall just getting onto the back of the Tom Onslow-Cole, Nick Foster, John George, Dave Newsham group.

I think the Audi A4 looks great. It just needs the mileage and I guess that is Rob Austin's goal for tomorrow, just finish all races and gradually improve the car.

Tons of incidents in this qualifying session. Mat Jackson and Andy Neate spinning off. Tom Boardman and Chris James colliding. Tony Hughes getting in a mix up with James Nash.

[AndySpeed]

I took a look at that sponsorship bidder website - Clyde Valley Racing are still making plans! https://www.sponsorshipbidder.com/contracts/contractsbycat/330

[VkmSpouge]

Race 1 Result:
1 Matt Neal
2 Andrew Jordan
3 Gordon Shedden
4 James Nash
5 Tom Chilton
6 Mat Jackson
7 Rob Collard
8 Tom Boardman
9 Paul O'Neill
10 Alex MacDowall
11 Jeff Smith
12 Tom Onslow-Cole
13 Nick Foster
14 Liam Griffin
15 Andy Neate
16 Tony Gilham
17 Frank Wrathall Jr.
18 Chris James
19 Jason Plato
20 Tony Hughes
DNF John George
DNF Dave Newsham
DNS Rob Austin

Great start by James Nash but gradually slipped backwards. Matt Neal had it relatively easy after that. Jason Plato's puncture could prove to be costly especially with the non-turbo cars being unable overtake the turbo charged ones.
Nice to see Frank Wrathall fighting hard with some other drivers. Shame that Rob Austin pulled off on the parade lap, hopefully the Audi will make it's debut in race two.

[Allyc85]

Shedden d/q from race 1 after a problem with his over boost!

http://www.btcc.net/html/generalnews_detail.php?id=2360

Not a bad first race, some good action in the midfield and as said it was great to see Wrathall racing with the pack!

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Dramatic start to race 2

[BDunnell]

Dramatic start to race 2

Hope that marshal is OK. A rare black mark to both Ben Edwards and Tim Harvey for not watching the footage of the accident properly and thinking it was Rob Austin who pushed Griffin into Plato, rather than Shedden as was clearly the case.

[AndySpeed]

Wasn't clearly Shedden as far as I'm aware.

Must be something in the water at Donington Park.

[BDunnell]

Some quite... er, 'marginal' driving in this second race. I have never seen a scarier-looking spin than Foster's. That could have been a monumental accident.

[BDunnell]

Well, that was all a bit silly at times. Great drives from Jordan, Nash and Onslow-Cole, though, and also from Collard, although I think he may have been involved in O'Neill's demise — we never saw what happened.

[VkmSpouge]

Race 2 Result:
1 Andrew Jordan
2 James Nash
3 Matt Neal
4 Tom Chilton
5 Rob Collard
6 Gordon Shedden
7 Tom Onslow-Cole
8 Tony Gilham
9 Alex MacDowall
10 Mat Jackson
11 Andy Neate
12 John George
13 Jeff Smith
14 Chris James
15 Dave Newsham
16 Tony Hughes
DNF Nick Foster
DNF Tom Boardman
DNF Paul O'Neill
NCF Frank Wrathall Jr.
DNF Liam Griffin
DNF Jason Plato
DNF Rob Austin

I hope the marshall is okay from Jason Plato's crash. Really big crash too, I doubt we'll see Plato in race three. Plenty of other incidents too. What happened to Rob Austin on the first lap?
Andrew Jordan's fine start won him the race though he came under pressure from James Nash. The Vauxhalls are performing really well.
Congratulations to Tom Onslow-Cole, Shaun Hollamby and the whole of the AmD team for getting a fine seventh place :)

[Allyc85]

Hope that marshal is OK. A rare black mark to both Ben Edwards and Tim Harvey for not watching the footage of the accident properly and thinking it was Rob Austin who pushed Griffin into Plato, rather than Shedden as was clearly the case.

As soon as I saw the first replay I was literally shouting at the TV, it was obvious it wasnt the Audi at all! Still I hope the marshall is ok and can be back out beside the race track soon!

Can Plato take his team mates car in the likely event that his cant be fixed?

[BDunnell]

Still I hope the marshall is ok and can be back out beside the race track soon!

He is apparently OK, according to ITV just now.

[Allyc85]

Excellent news :)

[BDunnell]

Quite incredible that Plato's car is back out for race three. What an effort by RML.

[Allyc85]

Unreal! Plato will be buying many beers tonight!!

[BDunnell]

And this is even worse, at least without any really big accidents. What an awful mess on the first lap.

[Allyc85]

What do they say about about trying to win a race on the first lap?

[Allyc85]

Chaos in that race, its no wonder so many people slagg off the BTCC at times.

But James Nash, leads the championship!

[BDunnell]

A very messy race all the way through, that was. Some pretty dubious driving standards on display in my opinion, especially from Andy Neate, who perhaps ought to learn when to concede a place. Especially good run by Jeff Smith, though, and James Nash has to be the most improved driver of the season thus far.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

James Nash leads the standings without winning a race!

[BDunnell]

Chaos in that race, its no wonder so many people slagg off the BTCC at times.

I don't know about you or anyone else, but I am left a little concerned that, at some point, we're going to see an accident as a result of contact that causes more damage than just to the cars.

[UltimateDanGTR]

Well, I have to say that today's action turned into carnage, it seemed like many had lost their heads through all three races. Andy Neate was particularly poor when defending, and others were just going too gun hoe.

Having said that, there was some great racing in between, and I congratualte Nash and Jordan on really succesful weekends. Both can be considered championship contenders as they clearly have the pace and the car IMO.

Lets hope Thruxton is back to the BTCC norm: fun and hairy at times, but not over the top like today.

[Allyc85]

A very messy race all the way through, that was. Some pretty dubious driving standards on display in my opinion, especially from Andy Neate, who perhaps ought to learn when to concede a place. Especially good run by Jeff Smith, though, and James Nash has to be the most improved driver of the season thus far.

Fully agreed with that. Maybe we need stricter penalties, rather than the current points system we have in place at the moment.

[Iain]

Total amateur hour today. It might please the crash happy casual spectators but not me.

[AndySpeed]

Total amateur hour today. It might please the crash happy casual spectators but not me.

It was a little cringeworthy to watch. Quite a lot of the drivers involved though would be lucky to be considered more than amateurs anyway.

[BDunnell]

I do not understand why a situation has been allowed to develop whereby people are able to drive over the kerbs and even inside them onto the grass without this costing them anything. This, to my mind, leads to some of the dubious moves we see — after all, even if there's not a gap, why remain within the confines of the track to find one?

And surely it's time for ITV's presenters/commentators to cease the line that the amount of contact is just 'typical Touring Car racing'? It wears rather thin after a meeting in which we've seen this 'typical Touring Car racing' cause a car to roll three times and a race in which, of 10 retirements, eight were down to accidents or accident damage. Their cheerleading for the destruction derby element of the competition is beginning to become embarrassing (as was allowing Simon Hill to interview his own son for taking a class win in the Ginettas, which I would have thought represented a conflict of interests, but that's another matter).

[BDunnell]

It was a little cringeworthy to watch.

There have really been three occasions on which I've felt embarrassed to be a touring car enthusiast thanks to the standard of driving on display. One was after that absurd third race at Mondello in 2005, then again after the 2006 Donington meeting, and once more today. (Actually, make that four if you include the finale of the 1999 German STW Cup...)

[christophulus]

Third race was a joke. I'm all for close racing but I think they've been too lenient with the odd lunge here and nudge there, and it's turning into stock cars.

[Dave B]

I've just caught up, it was a demolition derby today with an unacceptable amount of totally avoidable accidents. It's not racing as I know it, and it's miraculous that nobody was injured. Enough's enough, TOCA need to enforce some basic driving standards. It's disheartening to see such poor driving filtering down to the support races too as they emulate the supposed professionals. I'm honestly not sure I can be bothered watching much more of this.

[BDunnell]

Enough's enough, TOCA need to enforce some basic driving standards.

Penalties, after all, are the only way in which anyone will learn. And the gradual worsening of standards suggests that the current regime of fines and licence endorsements simply isn't enough.

[AndyRAC]

Penalties, after all, are the only way in which anyone will learn. And the gradual worsening of standards suggests that the current regime of fines and licence endorsements simply isn't enough.

I'll be honest, i don't follow it as religiously as I used to, but, hell, what's going on with the driving standards? I'm sorry, but a line has to be drawn - a little bit of contact is inevitable, but this is more than a 'little contact', virtually ramming/driving people off the track.
However, isn't the BTCC's main purpose to entertain? And, it certainly does with plenty of 'crash, bang, wallop' - take that away and maybe it wouldn't get the viewing/ spectator numbers anymore. Maybe that's why the penalties are less than draconian.
I'm more of a Aussie V8 /DTM fan nowadays, might not always be as entertaining, but in the main, the driving standards are probably better.

[BDunnell]

I'll be honest, i don't follow it as religiously as I used to, but, hell, what's going on with the driving standards? I'm sorry, but a line has to be drawn - a little bit of contact is inevitable, but this is more than a 'little contact', virtually ramming/driving people off the track.
However, isn't the BTCC's main purpose to entertain? And, it certainly does with plenty of 'crash, bang, wallop' - take that away and maybe it wouldn't get the viewing/ spectator numbers anymore. Maybe that's why the penalties are less than draconian.
I'm more of a Aussie V8 /DTM fan nowadays, might not always be as entertaining, but in the main, the driving standards are probably better.

V8s I can understand the appeal of. Having been to several DTM races and been bored rigid on each occasion, I have to disagree there — I think the series is as dull as ditchwater.

As for the BTCC, I suppose at least it isn't always like today, though it is getting that way. Maybe the racing is too close, if such a thing is possible. The fact of there being so many cars that are relatively evenly matched will lead to incidents as they fight amongst themselves, so some leeway should be given for that. And, as I said above, there are even aspects of the circuits that could perhaps be altered to deter some of the moves we see. But without question, the 'racing culture' whereby ever more dubious contact is increasingly tolerated — and surely it is factually correct that this is the case? — has much to do with it. Touring car racing has always involved more contact than many other forms of competition, and this is inevitable. But just looking at older footage shows that the BTCC of today is much rougher than it was 10-15 years ago (when there were also many people bemoaning falling standards, let's not forget). I don't think one driver or one factor is to blame, and nor is the level of drivers competing, which is much as it's always been save for that period in the 1990s when the series suddenly saw an influx of international stars. Rather, there has been a general progression towards acceptance of driving that once was unacceptable.

[Sarah]

I thought the little bit of quali I watched yesterday was bad but today was worse. Glad JP is OK.

I could not watch what they were doing down craner at the beginning of the 3rd race. However, thought Nash and Jordan were good today and TOC did well in the 2nd race.

[F1boat]

I dunno, I loved the races. Crazy as hell, but I liked it and of course I am very happy that the marschall and Jason are all right. And I'll watch this championship rather than V8 and DTM...

[Iain]

I really don't think I'll go out of my way to watch Thruxton after that today. Doesn't bear thinking about on a track like that.

Just for a laugh, I looked at the official forum and it's full of fanboys justifying all the "great" racing and attacking anyone who dares to criticise the driving standards.

This is the sort of thing that's made me lose some enthusiasm for touring car racing, the BTCC in particular. And I never thought I'd say that until the past few years.

[BDunnell]

I really don't think I'll go out of my way to watch Thruxton after that today. Doesn't bear thinking about on a track like that.

In truth, I can't imagine Thruxton seeing anywhere near as much nonsense. I can't think of a really dirty race there, and doubt we'll see a sudden deterioration this year. Donington has often been one of those places where, for whatever reason, things can get out of hand — the 2006 meeting, and last year's race one debacle (though that was caused by the circuit, in all honesty) spring to mind.

[AndySpeed]

Perhaps the calibre of fans of the BTCC has got "simpler"? Thus they might like to watch a bump 'n barge race because they can't appreciate the subtleties of close racing without excessive contact.

Certainly that is the impression I sometimes get of the official BTCC fanboys forum.

[AndySpeed]

Also bear in mind that we have a large number of rookies or relative rookies in the series this year, and quite a few were involved in incidents today.

[BDunnell]

Perhaps the calibre of fans of the BTCC has got "simpler"? Thus they might like to watch a bump 'n barge race because they can't appreciate the subtleties of close racing without excessive contact.

Certainly that is the impression I sometimes get of the official BTCC fanboys forum.

You may very well be right. But one would hope that the nature of the enthusiasm and expectations of some of the BTCC audience has no bearing on the enforcement of driving standards in an RAC championship.

[BDunnell]

Also bear in mind that we have a large number of rookies or relative rookies in the series this year, and quite a few were involved in incidents today.

Indeed, but so were many of those with a full season or more under their belts. The only one of those incidents that I think could genuinely be put down to inexperience was probably Newsham's start-line spin in race three.

[BDunnell]

To anyone who doubts whether the authorities really are any more lenient on dirty driving than they used to be, watch this from 1993:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vv9ru6aO6Ac

...and consider that Soper was penalised a place for his pass on Gravett. Today, no-one would have batted an eyelid. Of course what is deemed acceptable has changed.

[Iain]

To anyone who doubts whether the authorities really are any more lenient on dirty driving than they used to be, watch this from 1993:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vv9ru6aO6Ac

...and consider that Soper was penalised a place for his pass on Gravett. Today, no-one would have batted an eyelid. Of course what is deemed acceptable has changed.

As Tim Harvey would put it, that move at Clearways was "classic Matt Neal".

[BDunnell]

As Tim Harvey would put it, that move at Clearways was "classic Matt Neal".

There was also the Donington race later that year at which Rouse was excluded for what was considered to be unacceptable driving, or 'great racing' as some might now term it. (In fact, I remember thinking at the time that Rouse's exclusion was harsh, but you get my drift.)

[Torg22]

I loved watching the BTCC this weekend, am i the only one that likes to see incident packed races?? I totaly agree with a lot of you about the driving standards and the amount of contact that occured at Donnington but as a spectator i loved it. If i was a competitor then yeh ok.. i would be asking some serious questions about the people that im racing against and moaning at the race stewards after every race. But im not competing! The WTCC has what i call clean sterile racing with very few battles and to be honest i find it dull to watch.

Anybody else think that Neate is out of his depth in BTCC?? He was one of drivers that i thought drove esspecially bad.

[F1boat]

I loved watching the BTCC this weekend, am i the only one that likes to see incident packed races??

No. You know, yesterday eve I was not in great mood and than I watched the taped races and was very entertained. Great stuff ;)

[AndySpeed]

No. You know, yesterday eve I was not in great mood and than I watched the taped races and was very entertained. Great stuff ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsqJFIJ5lLs

[Iain]

I loved watching the BTCC this weekend, am i the only one that likes to see incident packed races?? I totaly agree with a lot of you about the driving standards and the amount of contact that occured at Donnington but as a spectator i loved it. If i was a competitor then yeh ok.. i would be asking some serious questions about the people that im racing against and moaning at the race stewards after every race. But im not competing! The WTCC has what i call clean sterile racing with very few battles and to be honest i find it dull to watch.



I like drivers actually using their brains to overtake the car in front, not just using brute force and battering their opponent out of the way because it's easier. Maybe if you're just a casual fan you can distance yourself from it all and enjoy the crashing, but when you follow a few drivers closely, you can get really cheesed off with them being punted off all the time and a victim of someone else's lack of skill. I enjoy a bit of side by side action, but I've seen too many disappointed mechanics when their car is in bits and heard too many stories of people having to end or miss events in their season because they have picked up too much damage through no fault of their own.

[F1boat]

:D

[Bezza]

Also bear in mind that we have a large number of rookies or relative rookies in the series this year, and quite a few were involved in incidents today.

I don't really agree with this.

Shedden caused Plato's roll with blatant stupidity going down Craner Curves, and Tom Chilton and Matt Neal have notoriously poor driving standards and have proven so over the years - in fact some of the "rookies" standards are much better - James Nash and Andrew Jordan for example.

[BDunnell]

Shedden caused Plato's roll with blatant stupidity going down Craner Curves

I'm not really with you on that. I'd put that one down to a racing incident. The contact was quite slight, but had big consequences.

[I am evil Homer]

Shedden's been quite bump happy this year though for some reason. Tapping someone going through a notorious turn where cars get unbalanced isn't smart and is more likely to lead to a bad end result. He should and would know that, so i'm not sure "racing incident" can be used for "total brain fade".

[Torg22]

I feel that the Plato incident was more of an accident than anything, not mallicious. But i must agree that Shedden's driving has been quite aggresive so far this year. I still think his moves on Boardman at Brands was amonst some of the worst driving ive seen in the BTCC due to being premeditated, i'm amazed he didnt pick up any penalty points.

[Iain]

I don't really agree with this.

Shedden caused Plato's roll with blatant stupidity going down Craner Curves, and Tom Chilton and Matt Neal have notoriously poor driving standards and have proven so over the years - in fact some of the "rookies" standards are much better - James Nash and Andrew Jordan for example.

What I don't understand about Chilton is how his driving has deteriorated over the years. He really showed some good potential without hitting anyone in late 2004 and again in his part season in 2005 with the Star Wars Honda, but since he moved to VXR, then Dynamics and back to Arena, he's not the same driver.

[PDS]

Eveyone seems to be forgetting that the incident was not just Shedden and Plato... Liam Grifin was an innocent party in this accident..

He too had major damage to his Focus. and like RML, Motorbase had to completely rebuild his car to get him back on the grid for race three..

I found it quite ironic that it was mentioned during the run-up to race three on ITV4 Louise commented that Shedden felt quite bad about the outcome of the accident to Plato! it just goes to show how some of these 'little nudge's' can turn out and i think it is about time Shedden DOES actually realise how dangerous they can be.

I don't suppose he will stop doing it though?

[Allyc85]

Even some of the drivers are ashamed to be associated with some of the poor driving we saw..

https://twitter.com/#!/jasonplato/status/59969875120103424 (https://twitter.com/#%21/jasonplato/status/59969875120103424)

And apparently these were the punishments handed out!

Race 1, Andy Neate, officially reprimanded and 2 penalty points on his competition licence

Race 2, Tom Chilton and Gordon Shedden, both officially reprimanded and 2 penalty points

Race 3, Dave Newsham, fined £500 and 3 penalty points & James Nash, 2 penalty points.

[AndySpeed]

Eveyone seems to be forgetting that the incident was not just Shedden and Plato... Liam Grifin was an innocent party in this accident..

From the TV images it did appear that Liam was slow going down the craners. I may be wrong, but him being 'innocent' needs to be backed up with telemetry.

There's a whole load of Shedden bashing going on in the forum these days - I don't agree with it all - where has this previously hidden anti-Shedden attitude come from?

[Allyc85]

I thought Shedden was unlucky that the car in front slowed so much through a fast corner, even with a lot of bunching up.

[BDunnell]

Even some of the drivers are ashamed to be associated with some of the poor driving we saw..

Interesting. Maybe the message will get through.

[BDunnell]

There's a whole load of Shedden bashing going on in the forum these days - I don't agree with it all - where has this previously hidden anti-Shedden attitude come from?

I simply don't understand where the notion that he's any worse than most of the other drivers stems from, to be honest. I've never seen it.

[Torg22]

What I don't understand about Chilton is how his driving has deteriorated over the years. He really showed some good potential without hitting anyone in late 2004 and again in his part season in 2005 with the Star Wars Honda, but since he moved to VXR, then Dynamics and back to Arena, he's not the same driver.

The last couple of years he has been with Arena he has been pretty clean. It was only yesterday they he got himself caught up in a few incidents. My mate and i used to think he was dead dirty but his time at Arena has matured him and made him into a better driver.

[F1boat]

Be careful what you wish for - I prefer BTCC as it is. The alternative is the highly processional DTM series, which can be used as a cure to insomnia... or the WTCC, with the draconian penalties which FIA gives at whim.

[BDunnell]

Be careful what you wish for - I prefer BTCC as it is. The alternative is the highly processional DTM series, which can be used as a cure to insomnia... or the WTCC, with the draconian penalties which FIA gives at whim.

Don't agree with that at all. The racing in the BTCC in the two-litre/Super Touring era may have had its dirty moments, but for me as a spectator and viewer it struck the right balance in terms of driving standards and entertainment. The BTCC of today doesn't. It's a shame, because if it was a bit cleaner, it would be excellent.

[MrMetro]

The racing in the BTCC in the two-litre/Super Touring era may have had its dirty moments, but for me as a spectator and viewer it struck the right balance in terms of driving standards and entertainment. The BTCC of today doesn't. It's a shame, because if it was a bit cleaner, it would be excellent.

Well said

[PDS]

From the TV images it did appear that Liam was slow going down the craners. I may be wrong, but him being 'innocent' needs to be backed up with telemetry.


The on-car footage they showed from Plato's car, Griffin was alongside Plato when Shedden made contact with him!

And I think the fact that Flash was given 2 penalty points seems to point that the officals were happy with the telemetry they saw!

[Iain]

The last couple of years he has been with Arena he has been pretty clean. It was only yesterday they he got himself caught up in a few incidents. My mate and i used to think he was dead dirty but his time at Arena has matured him and made him into a better driver.

I wasn't meaning he was a dirty driver. I was talking about his ability. He's failed to hit the heights that he showed previously and is now nothing more than an average driver in my opinion.


Don't agree with that at all. The racing in the BTCC in the two-litre/Super Touring era may have had its dirty moments, but for me as a spectator and viewer it struck the right balance in terms of driving standards and entertainment. The BTCC of today doesn't. It's a shame, because if it was a bit cleaner, it would be excellent.

Agreed.

As for this notion that you can't get a lot of cars down the Craner Curves cleanly, then what about this clip from 20 years ago? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkiZsXu1V9g

That's with cars which have no aerodynamic packages and probably less tyre development than the ones we see now, yet they managed to behave themselves relatively cleanly.

[AndySpeed]

... then what about this clip from 20 years ago?
Errr... Iain, I think you might have linked the wrong youtube vid! :laugh:

[Iain]

:laugh:

Amended. ;) Somebody sent me that in an email and I had to copy the URL to play the thing and forgot that was the last thing copied. :o

[Alfa Fan]

Just had a chance to watch the races on TV. Driving standards are even more embarrassing than they appeared trackside. There really needs to be something done about it.

[Torg22]

I do think that Donnington was an exceptionally chaotic BTCC weekend though and is not a true relection on the series as a whole.

[Sarah]

I agree with Iain about Chilton I even tipped him to win a championship not long ago. I looked over on the other forum and was surprised that so many were saying they had a brilliant day. Was thinking maybe they weren't seeing what we saw on TV but they must have seen quite a few of the incidents.

[Torg22]

I agree with Iain about Chilton I even tipped him to win a championship not long ago. I looked over on the other forum and was surprised that so many were saying they had a brilliant day. Was thinking maybe they weren't seeing what we saw on TV but they must have seen quite a few of the incidents.

They had a brilliant day i would imagine because they was watching BTCC where rubbing is racing and not a preccesional race like the DTM. From an early age i decided l loved the BTCC for this reason and ok... Donny was a bit OTT but it was in no way boring.

[Eurotech]

I was there on Sunday and actually found a lot of it quite enjoyable. The Nick Foster incident was a bit too close for comfort and was Plato's roll but at the end of the day, Would you rather watch F1 where they all just drive one behind the other. Not all BTCC races are like that, I think it shows a lot about you lot to just watch 2 races which maybe don't have great driving standards but they were entertaining and then threaten to never watch again? The BTCC isn't a boring championship and yeah pushing someone off to pass them isn't acceptable but this year we have quite a few rookies and these things will happen.

[wedge]

Don't agree with that at all. The racing in the BTCC in the two-litre/Super Touring era may have had its dirty moments, but for me as a spectator and viewer it struck the right balance in terms of driving standards and entertainment. The BTCC of today doesn't. It's a shame, because if it was a bit cleaner, it would be excellent.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTjltBNDlsI#t=1m29


I'll be honest, i don't follow it as religiously as I used to, but, hell, what's going on with the driving standards? I'm sorry, but a line has to be drawn - a little bit of contact is inevitable, but this is more than a 'little contact', virtually ramming/driving people off the track.
However, isn't the BTCC's main purpose to entertain? And, it certainly does with plenty of 'crash, bang, wallop' - take that away and maybe it wouldn't get the viewing/ spectator numbers anymore. Maybe that's why the penalties are less than draconian.
I'm more of a Aussie V8 /DTM fan nowadays, might not always be as entertaining, but in the main, the driving standards are probably better.

Couldn't agree more.

I'm so sick and tired of the criticism, 'it wasn't like the good ol days' blah, blah, blah. Don't like it then don't watch it, don't bother going to the races to hand over your money to TOCA.

[BDunnell]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTjltBNDlsI#t=1m29

Presumably, the 'example' Brodie thought ought to be set was the use of illegal fuel, disqualification and the docking of points...



I'm so sick and tired of the criticism, 'it wasn't like the good ol days' blah, blah, blah. Don't like it then don't watch it, don't bother going to the races to hand over your money to TOCA.

So you don't feel there is anything in between loving something and hating something — no middle ground where one can like something but feel there's room for improvement?

[wedge]

Presumably, the 'example' Brodie thought ought to be set was the use of illegal fuel, disqualification and the docking of points...

Drive thru penalties would help, as they do in V8SC




So you don't feel there is anything in between loving something and hating something — no middle ground where one can like something but feel there's room for improvement?

The same complaint has been made for years and nothing, nowt gets done about it. We all know where TOCA's priorities lie with the 'simpletons' who can't appreciate a good race with minimal contact/underhand tactics.

[F1boat]

Drive thru penalties would help, as they do in V8SC


And you'll have series like V8SC. For me, the dynamics and the overtaking of V8SC are not enough. I personally prefer "clean overtaking" with no contact, but at least in touring cars I prefer action-packed races like in BTCC than F1-like races like in DTM or V8SC.