Hello from Antony Warmbold

[Mirek]

So it's same like here. Thanks

[Barreis]

Thanks man. :)

[focus206]

Good luck, Antony! Hope to see nice results! :)

[mousti]

Herbold vs Warmbold why not :D

[Barreis]

Very good news.

[Barreis]

Antony, how'll be a co-driver?

[Antony Warmbold]

Antony, how'll be a co-driver?

Hi Barreis, we still have a lot of work to do before choosing a co-driver. I am not thinking of that yet. Right now we are waiting to see how the DRM will be organised.
Have a nice sunday!

[Barreis]

Any news or tests?

[Sulland]

As far as I know it's S2000 or Regional Rally Car I think they call it.

Or Super Production as Prodrive call their RRC.

[N.O.T]

Antony, how'll be a co-driver?

learn english or find a swedish driver first...as far as i know there is no corner named "good for him"

[Comal]

How about some more blog entries Antony!? Is an interesting insight.

[Antony Warmbold]

How about some more blog entries Antony!? Is an interesting insight.

Since you asked so nicely, I have updated the blog. 1 month late... sorry. Happy weekend!

[mousti]

Since you asked so nicely, I have updated the blog. 1 month late... sorry. Happy weekend!
U should have represented Ramsport with one of there historic cars in Legends Boucles de Spa today! One of the biggest Regularity/Historic event in the word and competing against your old teammate Duval, Auriol, Waldegard, Snijers, Duez, Droogmans, Neuville etc. U would have enjoy every second of it :) . Maybe next year! And good luck with finding sponsors!

[Barreis]

Thanks, Antony.

[A FONDO]

It's always been interesting for me, what happens when a privateer does extra damage to the car through an event? Does he fully pay every excess after it, obligated by some kind of a contract? Does the mutual-agreed rent price before the event include some "reserve fund" and is it returned if there's no damage? What are the rumoured rent prices these days (I dont mean how much could it cost but what somebody said he has paid)?

[N.O.T]

It's always been interesting for me, what happens when a privateer does extra damage to the car through an event? Does he fully pay every excess after it, obligated by some kind of a contract? Does the mutual-agreed rent price before the event include some "reserve fund" and is it returned if there's no damage? What are the rumoured rent prices these days (I dont mean how much could it cost but what somebody said he has paid)?

all the cars have insurance....the driver pays a sum to the company to rent the car and the sum includes insurance even for scrapping the car as well.

If the rally car causes damages to 3rd party vehicles or persons usually the organisers of the event pay the damages tot he 3rd person.

[A FONDO]

How bold insurance companies are! So preparators are happy for every additional damage :rolleyes:

Is it true that the greek driver paid 150 000 euros for the fiesta last year? Because I understood P.G. paid about 100 000 for Sweden and 50 000 sounds pretty much for the longer shipment only?

[N.O.T]

How bold insurance companies are! So preparators are happy for every additional damage :rolleyes:

Is it true that the greek driver paid 150 000 euros for the fiesta last year? Because I understood P.G. paid about 100 000 for Sweden and 50 000 sounds pretty much for the longer shipment only?

the driver posts in here so he can answer you that question...

[A FONDO]

And now a question directly to Antony

What can you tell about manufacturer teams' offences against technical rules? What changes (could) cars had between pre- and post-event scrutineering? What about unauthorized repairs on road sections, changing weight ballasts between the scales? Could a team be sure that officials wont check certain parts of the car? and so on....

[Antony Warmbold]

And now a question directly to Antony

What can you tell about manufacturer teams' offences against technical rules? What changes (could) cars had between pre- and post-event scrutineering? What about unauthorized repairs on road sections, changing weight ballasts between the scales? Could a team be sure that officials wont check certain parts of the car? and so on....

I am writing an answer which will be on the blog...this is a super cool question!

[Plan9]

Hey Anthony, long time fan first time posting; I was wondering if you could post some of your thoughts concerning MINI/Prodrive in the WRC and what you make of Meeke's predicament. Thanks.

[tfp]

Hey Anthony, long time fan first time posting; I was wondering if you could post some of your thoughts concerning MINI/Prodrive in the WRC and what you make of Meeke's predicament. Thanks.

If I recall, Anthony did a test in a Mini at banbury before the 2011 season got underway, I bet no one at prodrive thought it would end up as it did.

[Plan9]

Didn't he do it during 2011? I know that Ketomaa has also tested a JCW at some point last year (probably before Finland). I still think it would be quite interesting to hear from someone who has actually had some dealings with Prodrive for some perspective.

[Antony Warmbold]

I am writing an answer which will be on the blog...this is a super cool question!

Ok I answered this the best I can.
WRC behind the stages: To Cheat or not to Cheat (http://wrcbehindthestages.blogspot.com/2012/02/to-cheat-or-not-to-cheat.html)

[Antony Warmbold]

If I recall, Anthony did a test in a Mini at banbury before the 2011 season got underway, I bet no one at prodrive thought it would end up as it did.

yes, I drove the car last year around May. It is clear that, at the time, I had no idea the Germans would be so "hands off" with rally.

[tfp]

Ok I answered this the best I can.
WRC behind the stages: To Cheat or not to Cheat (http://wrcbehindthestages.blogspot.com/2012/02/to-cheat-or-not-to-cheat.html)

Thats some crazy stuff - I diddn't realise thats how the FIA found out toyota were using an illegal restrictor, by submersing it in water! Does anyone know how that illegal restrictor worked?

[Viking]

Thats some crazy stuff - I diddn't realise thats how the FIA found out toyota were using an illegal restrictor, by submersing it in water! Does anyone know how that illegal restrictor worked?

Shalco - TTE's Illegal Turbo's (http://homepage.virgin.net/shalco.com/tte_ban.htm)

[tfp]

Shalco - TTE's Illegal Turbo's (http://homepage.virgin.net/shalco.com/tte_ban.htm)

So when the Fia scrutineers removed the restrictor to check it the device snapped shut and there was no way to see any difference? Absolutely ingenious...

[Mirek]

This cheat was a masterpiece of engineering. I know it was against the rules but still I admire it. I miss the engineering genius in current machinery where one car is basically same as the other fully packed by technologies from 1980' because rules doesn't allow it to be significantly different...

[Viking]

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e118/z510/Misc/tte-restrict.jpg

[ProRally]

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e118/z510/Misc/tte-restrict.jpg

I heard the story once, how this drawing came about.... and where it was drawn....

[dimviii]

spill the beans Pro!

[Sulland]

Will you be driving rallies in 2012 Herr Warmbold ?

If so what is the program?

[Antony Warmbold]

Just did a new post. I hope you guys will like it.

[Barreis]

New page...
WRC behind the stages: Videos (http://wrcbehindthestages.blogspot.com/p/videos.html)

[br21]

Just did a new post. I hope you guys will like it.

Very interesting, nothing new, but really nice!

[janvanvurpa]

Very interesting, nothing new, but really nice!

Maybe nothing new for you, but a whole lot of numbers , nice specific numbers of spring rates for given set ups..

The one thing I'd say to Anthony is in comparing Maz-dog, then WRC Toyota then the Focus is that gravel suspension travel has gotten longer as time goes on. With longer travel you CAN and do run softer springs becuase if you have enough travel then you can "trade travel for grip"..

Kinda oronic i just sent Mirek a question if he knew exact spring rates for gravel on the Skodas.

I manufacture gravel rally suspension and have had to explain the whole idea of springs to many guys. Anthony did pretty good job.
And yes dual spring set ups are on all the cars now.

[Rallyper]

An easy way to explain long travel suspension on rallycars is to compare to Motocross bikes. They "invented" the longtravel springs many years before rallycars adapted it. And it made a huge improvement to the motocross bikes. That´s when Ohlins came in to the market.

[tfp]

Good blog post Antony, was interesting to see how the "helper" spring worked!

Good picture at the top of the page aswel, where was that taken?

P.s Did you see your old mate Toni on Top Gear last night? :D

[janvanvurpa]

An easy way to explain long travel suspension on rallycars is to compare to Motocross bikes. They "invented" the longtravel springs many years before rallycars adapted it. And it made a huge improvement to the motocross bikes. That´s when Ohlins came in to the market.

Yeah that's what I say to folks since that what was going on in the whole period I was active in moto-cross and living i Stor-Stockholm.. och till o med i Upplands-Väsby.
Firman where I worked---Sollentuna Svets o Smide got the sub-contract to build the automatic TiG-svets machine which welded the bottom forging onto Kentas shock body when they were setting up for production. My boss Peter Stranh )numera i Fallköping traken tror jag) built the machine so any fool go do a proper job and while he was training Kentas normal mechanics I worked in the shop doing their work...Of course in the evening when work was done and the beer was opened, I learned a lot about the internals and these days a big part of my income is from manufacturing rally suspension using Bilstein internal parts and shocks...for example yesterday evening once my wife was home i was down at the shop making the mounting “ears“ on the struts and milling the upper hols into ovals, the cars I am right now building suspension for are 1 Suzuki, 2 Subarus, a 240 Volvo, a 240 Nissan (rwd), RX7, Sierra gravel and a Sierra for ban racing. While typing this supsension arrive for repar and mods for an escort Cosworth and a Audi Quattro..
Surprisingly enough, the suspension I make by all reports is very good and everybody says "I can't belive how nice these are on landing after jumps"

That's why seeing Anthony's numbers was interesting...

The whole design really is like in moto-cross around 1977 when we finally reached around 315mm travel rear and 300mm in the front even in details like placing the legs in front of the axle (or on bikes, the axle in front of the tube) rather in direct line with the spindle...Everything similar except cars weigh 1200kg and our bikes weighed 100kg...thats why I'm curious what the gravel rates on modern long travel cars are because that tells us a good guess on valving..

In regards Anothy's talk of springs, oh dear what we all spent a lot of time changing springs. Linear springs, progressive would with straight diameter wire for progressive effect, true progressive where the wire was linear wound but the wire tapered, normal looking coils, verty widely spaced coils (nice for fabriks drivers but fatigue failures occurred) and then finally dual springs..

Sure would be nice to know some numbers....

Now, time to weld some ears on struts!

[Sulland]

An easy way to explain long travel suspension on rallycars is to compare to Motocross bikes. They "invented" the longtravel springs many years before rallycars adapted it. And it made a huge improvement to the motocross bikes. That´s when Ohlins came in to the market.

Snowmobiles have gone through a similar developmemt curve. From leafsprings in the front and simple coil springs and 'cyclepump' dampers in the back. With very little travelway in both ends.
Now it is like a competitioncrosser on even a touring scooter! Amazing !

[janvanvurpa]

Snowmobiles have gone through a similar developmemt curve. From leafsprings in the front and simple coil springs and 'cyclepump' dampers in the back. With very little travelway in both ends.
Now it is like a competitioncrosser on even a touring scooter! Amazing !

Yep, and there I believe one of the key figures was the son of an old friend of mine from 77-79 when i was doing Internationals all around France Pauli Pippola.
he was travelling with his wife and 5 year old son and i had some enormous fun chasing the kid around and ambushing him and even threw him up (very carefully but he didn't know it) into a tree after "catching him" and swinging him around by one foot and one hand... Google Pauli Pippola and his son and the suspension which it seems he debveloped gets like 1000s of hits.....and if you look hard enough I saw some results for Papa Pippola still doing Historic moto-cross now over 60 but looks like in amazing good shape..

If I recall Juha Kankunnens commenst from WRC Finland a couple of years ago it was kind of "Motor? Nääääääääääääää Okej, but brakes and suspesnion !!'' and BIG eyes and BIG Smile. that was the most important thing when we went from 175mm travel to 250-then 300mm travel from '74 to 76, it was how hard we could deep into corners and brake so hard and not get kicked off the bike... previously we could use up all the front travel just brakingand have none left for bumps, then we could brake and use up 150-175mm and still have some left.... In the rear the wheel stayed in contact with the ground on the up and dow side of bumps and put down power, and so it was much quicker...
Too bad our muscles didn't double in the same time frame.

Now we just sit on our butts in a nice warm, dry car, and mash the gas; so much better!

[Antony Warmbold]

Good blog post Antony, was interesting to see how the "helper" spring worked!

Good picture at the top of the page aswel, where was that taken?

P.s Did you see your old mate Toni on Top Gear last night? :D

Thx! The pic is from Monte, Gap area. I think it's the lac d'Embrun.
I did not see Toni :( I don't get topgear. But it'll come on youtube I'm sure.

[Antony Warmbold]

Will you be driving rallies in 2012 Herr Warmbold ?

If so what is the program?

I don't know. I wish to participate in the DRM. To be frank, rallying in Germany holds no interest for sponsors. I can't even find proper media stats because since Skoda stopped running officially in the DRM, nobody has had media and spectator viewing stats made. I have, therefore, no numbers to show sponsors. It's sad.

[tfp]

Thx! The pic is from Monte, Gap area. I think it's the lac d'Embrun.
I did not see Toni :( I don't get topgear. But it'll come on youtube I'm sure.

I may have guessed Monte :D

I'll keep an eye on youtube and I'll be sure to post here when I find a link :)

[tfp]

I heard the story once, how this drawing came about.... and where it was drawn....


spill the beans Pro!

+1 Please tell, Pro!

[ProRally]

+1 Please tell, Pro!

It was drawn in the office of a nice guy who is still involved in WRC, the rest I will tell over a drink when we meet up at some rally !!! :D :D

[omer yetis]

It was drawn in the office of a nice guy who is still involved in WRC, the rest I will tell over a drink when we meet up at some rally !!! :D :D

does he still continue to draw?

[tfp]

It was drawn in the office of a nice guy who is still involved in WRC, the rest I will tell over a drink when we meet up at some rally !!! :D :D

I'm up for that! :)

[Barreis]

WRC behind the stages: Updated video page! (http://wrcbehindthestages.blogspot.com/2012/03/updated-video-page.html)

[Barreis]

Toni G. from Top Gear.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIJLLkTrF4w

[Brother John]

Toni G. from Top Gear.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIJLLkTrF4w

This video is in fact not important on a rally forum, only because we see a rally car?

[Barreis]

That's 'cos you don't read older posts from this thread, moderator.

[tfp]

This video is in fact not important on a rally forum, only because we see a rally car?

Cool video:-) toni is a friend of Antonys!

[Brother John]

That's 'cos you don't read older posts from this thread, moderator.

I do read everything on the rally forum but was a few days abroad.

[Hartusvuori]

I do read everything on the rally forum but was a few days abroad.

But honestly John, how is that video not of importance or interest on a rally forum? Yes, it's entertainment (but so are sports in general), but it does have a rally car driven by a rally driver on it. That said video had been posted on the forum earlier also.

[Barreis]

Great rally (one of the best from calendar)...
WRC Highlights: Australia 2005: 52 Minutes - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02UYmCq4ypo&feature=sh_e_se&list=SL)

[Antony Warmbold]

Hi guys, am going to make some entries in the blog over the coming days. A new one is up already today. Have a pleasant sunday! It's really hot over here :(

[GigiGalliNo1]

Can you post www link again?

[EightGear]

Can you post www link again?

It's in his signature...

[GigiGalliNo1]

Got it!

http://wrcbehindthestages.blogspot.com.au/?m=1

[dimviii]

Can you post www link again?

link at his signature.

[OldF]

Nice to hear from you again Antony.


It's really hot over here :(

But not here. After two years of nice and warm summer, this summer hasn’t been so good.

Not knowing what you are going to write about, one issue I can’t recall you have been writing about is the anti-roll bars. I know they’re stiffer on tarmac rallies (as the whole suspension set-up) compared to gravel rallies but what is the relationship to other suspension set-ups (spring stiffness, dampers settings etc.)?

Is the suspension set-up chosen for a tarmac or gravel rally and the anti-roll bars stiffness by the suspension set-up or are they chosen independently (slow and twisty tarmac / gravel rallies compared to fast tarmac / gravel rallies or any combination of these)?

I’ve read some book that by the choose of a stiffness of an anti-roll bar, you can make a choose if the car is more under steered or over steered.

[Antony Warmbold]

Hi, I tried to answer your question on the blog...

WRC behind the stages: An ARB question (http://wrcbehindthestages.blogspot.com/2012/08/an-arb-question.html)

See ya

[OldF]

Hi, I tried to answer your question on the blog...

WRC behind the stages: An ARB question (http://wrcbehindthestages.blogspot.com/2012/08/an-arb-question.html)

See ya

Thanks Antony,

This clarifies things for me a lot. After I had read your blog I begin to discuss which parts are included in the suspension. I did a little bit googling and the definition varied little. Before I included in the suspension the dampers and the springs but now I would add also the ARBs and my question would have been formulated differently. How do you define suspension?

From the blog:
“The reason for this is I always liked to drive a car "from the rear" if you know what I mean...?”

I must admit I don’t know what it means. Please explain. I don’t have any practical experience of these things, only as we call it “book wisdom” and nowadays also internet.

Juuso Pykälistö once tested few F-group cars and he said that in his mind for most of the cars the suspension was too soft. One of the drivers said because they drive without pace notes in F-Cup, they have better traction when accelerating etc. (vetopito in Finnish) with a soft suspension.

Part of my question:
"I’ve read some book that by the choose of a stiffness of an anti-roll bar, you can make a choose if the car is more under steered or over steered."


From the blog:
”Sure, for example I often ran very soft ARB's on the car to improve the grip on the rear.”

I interpret this that the team had dampers and springs already determined for every rally but the driver could choose the stiffness of ARBs depending on his/her preference of the balance of the car.
Is this correct?

[janvanvurpa]

Thanks Antony,

This clarifies things for me a lot. After I had read your blog I begin to discuss which parts are included in the suspension. I did a little bit googling and the definition varied little. Before I included in the suspension the dampers and the springs but now I would add also the ARBs and my question would have been formulated differently. How do you define suspension?

From the blog:
“The reason for this is I always liked to drive a car "from the rear" if you know what I mean...?”

I must admit I don’t know what it means. Please explain. I don’t have any practical experience of these things, only as we call it “book wisdom” and nowadays also internet.

Juuso Pykälistö once tested few F-group cars and he said that in his mind for most of the cars the suspension was too soft. One of the drivers said because they drive without pace notes in F-Cup, they have better traction when accelerating etc. (vetopito in Finnish) with a soft suspension.

Part of my question:
"I’ve read some book that by the choose of a stiffness of an anti-roll bar, you can make a choose if the car is more under steered or over steered."


From the blog:
”Sure, for example I often ran very soft ARB's on the car to improve the grip on the rear.”

I interpret this that the team had dampers and springs already determined for every rally but the driver could choose the stiffness of ARBs depending on his/her preference of the balance of the car.
Is this correct?


Hej Gammal Finne, if its OK to poke my nose in a little? Ok? Okej since I work on suspension since '75 and manufacure pretty good suspension since 10 years now for mostly gravel rally....
Anti roll bars work by making the car corner flatter but they do that by lifting the INSIDE wheel...Follow with me a bit. You and I, and I'm driving, OK! are approaching a sweeping left corner with nice packed dirt . I initiate the corner and the car leans a bit.. You can say the car leans or another way to look at it is the OUTSIDE wheel on your side goes up....since the rollbar is attached to the arm both sides, as your side, the outside went up, the roll bar wants to "lift" the inside wheel---and that makes the car flatter..
Problem is we are on gravel, and we are flying in my mighty Saab V4 which is front wheel drive... now cornering hard as I do, that inside wheel is already 'light" cause weight has shifted over to the outside wheel..

If its 'light" from dynamic actions, the question is "Do I want to further lighten the load---buy fitting a roll bar that Lifts the wheel?"
Well not if I want any grip, right?
You know from driving ordinary ****-box road cars if you spin the inside wheel---like in the occasional light snow you sometimes may have seen in Finland----they you don't go around corners, you "plow' ahead

So briefly, on gravel the overarching No1 obsession is about grip, and grip we can get and do get by moving weight for example forward with hard braking, then outward with the steeringwheel, and the soft thing for F Cup guys, well most are RWD and there we use TRAVEL, like 230-240mm travel to let us run relative softer wheel rates and that allows the car to squat and still have suspension movement...

So since grip is paramount, anti roll bars which are about piddly fine tuning are of much less important...compared to asphalt where handling is paramount since grip is easy...
I have a pile of Build Sheets for rally Sierra and Sapphires and Escort Cosworth and on all the set up sheets for gravel they all say front and rear "roll bars full soft or disconnected".

This help?

[Antony Warmbold]

Hi OldF, By "driving from the rear" I was trying to say that I liked to come aggressively in corners, make the back slide out (on gravel) and that was making the car turn. I had a lot of grip on the rear from my setup with softer rear springs and ARB's. When I figured that system out it worked well for me, I came faster than before in corners and I had confidence because I knew the car ha a lot of grip and It was not going to be a big slide and I started to have much better stage times.
On tarmac, unfortunately I had the same philosophy at the time, which was wrong. Ironically I learned from Go-karting, later, how to drive efficiently on tarmac.

"I interpret this that the team had dampers and springs already determined for every rally but the driver could choose the stiffness of ARBs depending on his/her preference of the balance of the car.
Is this correct?"

If you wanted you could change everything for your liking. But the car had already a fantastic balance from the 1000's of km that Markko Martin, Francois Duval (and Mark Higgins..?) had determined and it was not necessary to make big changes except tweaking around for your personal style or taste. wether it was dampers, spring, ARB, ride height, etc.

have a good evening

[dimviii]

I know that with the Mini RRC/WRC on testing with Snijers they often changed ARB's, also on shakedown before Ypres last year they tested a few possibilities. They tried 32, 30 and 28mm on the shakedown before Ypres last year, if I remember it right, sometimes changing in front or in back.
@Anthony: Do you know if for example Ø2mm make a real in how the car feels? Did you feel the difference if they changed these rather little things in tests?

at grN evos even 2mm has a lot of difference.Most drivers prefere the medium one(3 choices as well)

[danon]

Just imagine how hyper sensitive one should be in order to sense the 2 mm.
difference right away vs. ambiance, terrain and infinity of circumstances.

May be that's what make the difference between the good, the better and the best.

The best one feel it, the rest - measure it.

http://img.auctiva.com/imgdata/1/0/1/8/5/6/9/webimg/515340562_o.jpg

[Steve Boyd]

Remember an anti-roll bar acts in torsion so a solid 32 mm bar is nearly 30% stiffer than a 30 mm bar.

[danon]

How many feel the difference - stiffness/softness.
The sensitive one has the advantage vs. the measurement rest.

[Coach 2]

I totally agree with your reasoning "Danon": The best one feel it.
But as "dimviii" said and "Steve Boyd" explained, 2mm on ABR, the difference this makes in handling of the car, most drivers feel.
Claiming: the driver (if he is skilled enough) that has or get, the best feeling with the surface in any rally, how much grip is available at any given time, etc. etc. becomes the winner of the rally. It is this that makes Loeb to the winner he is. And maybe also make Citroen to the winning team it is.
So as you say, "Danon" The sensitive one has the advantage.

[janvanvurpa]

Just imagine how hyper sensitive one should be in order to sense the 2 mm.
difference right away vs. ambiance, terrain and infinity of circumstances.

May be that's what make the difference between the good, the better and the best.

The best one feel it, the rest - measure it.

http://img.auctiva.com/imgdata/1/0/1/8/5/6/9/webimg/515340562_o.jpg

Good point. Racecar Engineer had a big giant interview with rally engineer Christian Loriaux some years back (right before they died in WRC, hmmmmmmm causation or correlation? You decide) and he was saying that it is very difficult to get solid data out of the drivers about how things were working on gravel because, in essence, good gravel drivers can 'drive around" or compensate for a lot of variable factors including "bad" or wrong set up....where on asphalt they can stick sensors all over and 'get good consistent data" and (he basically said several different and "polite" ways) we don't have to listen to the drivers ("because the systems are so complex they don't understand everything about suspension and diff maps etc"...

So knowing that subjective impressions are so variable, we have to have some numbers, not just spring rates, but damper rates, roll bars and we need numbers. I build lots of rally suspension, lots and evidently it works pretty good since guys are winning overall in regional events and even into top 5 in some Canadian national championship events--yes its all relative but only very subtile difference compared with very expensive brands. I use Bilstein stuff because they have a damper rating system for well forever where the damping force is expressed in a 1/10 notation of the N of force when they move the unit at a speed of 0,52m/s. and they are marked clearly.....it's really amazing how many guys have absolutely no idea at all what spring and damper setting are on their cars, just pure trust for the crew AND whatever the voice on the phone said.
Numbers are good.

[janvanvurpa]

I totally agree with your reasoning "Danon": The best one feel it.
But as "dimviii" said and "Steve Boyd" explained, 2mm on ABR, the difference this makes in handling of the car, most drivers feel.
Claiming: the driver (if he is skilled enough) that has or get, the best feeling with the surface in any rally, how much grip is available at any given time, etc. etc. becomes the winner of the rally. It is this that makes Loeb to the winner he is. And maybe also make Citroen to the winning team it is.
So as you say, "Danon" The sensitive one has the advantage.

Two ways to look at that, and one way I've seen is the "sensitive" are always using their too-refined sensitivty as reason to complain and moan...while the less sensitive maybe are concentrating on stomping on the gas more full gas than the other guy, and reacting of overcoming any slight subtile differences...best set up in the world doesn't help if the driver doesn't hold the gas down harder and longer---and then brake correctly..
The great Belgian moto-cross ace, 5 time 500 World Champion Roger DeCoster was once shaking his head and he said to me "If I have a good day and everything is set up right, I know i can beat Heikki (Heikki Mikkola from Finland, another giant), but if he has a good day, he can have one broken shock (back when bikes had 2 shocks), get off the "good" line and still beat me! he's an animal!"
Lucky for Roger his bikes were often 'everything right'...so 5x 500 World Champion...vs Mikkola 3 x in 500 and 1 time in 250.

always at least two ways to look at things. At least. and things look different when you're upside down hanging in the belts!

[Antony Warmbold]

If I remember correctly on the '04 car ARB's ranged from 25x3 (hardest to softest) to 25x2.5 ; 25x2 ; 25x1.5 ; 22x2.5 ; 22x2...

The ARB's were hollow tubes, not plain. ie: as I understood it, "25x2,5" meant "25mm" was the total diameter of the tube and "2,5mm" was the thickness of the tube wall. Somebody may have to corect me on this 'caus it's been a long time...The steps were 0.5mm of thickness. You could feel the differences in steps on gravel rather well compared to tarmac which was subtle to feel because there was a lot of grip. This car was always running very low to the ground, with little rolling anyways.

[Antony Warmbold]

I know that with the Mini RRC/WRC on testing with Snijers they often changed ARB's, also on shakedown before Ypres last year they tested a few possibilities. They tried 32, 30 and 28mm on the shakedown before Ypres last year, if I remember it right, sometimes changing in front or in back.
@Anthony: Do you know if for example Ø2mm make a real in how the car feels? Did you feel the difference if they changed these rather little things in tests?

our steps were different on the '04 focus, so it's difficult to relate to the 2mm steps of the mini that you write about. sorry.

[dimviii]

The ARB's were hollow tubes, not plain. ie: as I understood it, "25x2,5" meant "25mm" was the total diameter of the tube and "2,5mm" was the thickness of the tube wall. Somebody may have to corect me on this 'caus it's been a long time...

you are right Antony

[Coach 2]

Two ways to look at that, and one way I've seen is the "sensitive" are always using their too-refined sensitivty as reason to complain and moan...while the less sensitive maybe are concentrating on stomping on the gas more full gas than the other guy, and reacting of overcoming any slight subtile differences...best set up in the world doesn't help if the driver doesn't hold the gas down harder and longer---and then brake correctly..
The great Belgian moto-cross ace, 5 time 500 World Champion Roger DeCoster was once shaking his head and he said to me "If I have a good day and everything is set up right, I know i can beat Heikki (Heikki Mikkola from Finland, another giant), but if he has a good day, he can have one broken shock (back when bikes had 2 shocks), get off the "good" line and still beat me! he's an animal!"
Lucky for Roger his bikes were often 'everything right'...so 5x 500 World Champion...vs Mikkola 3 x in 500 and 1 time in 250.

always at least two ways to look at things. At least. and things look different when you're upside down hanging in the belts!

Correctly Jan. But I think you miss understood me. I meant sensitive to the surface, not too sensitive to the car setup.
But we can ask the question on to Antony.
What do you think was the hardest choice, to get the best feel for the surface?
Maybe even considering that you hardly got tested enough before each rally.

[janvanvurpa]

Correctly Jan. But I think you miss understood me. I meant sensitive to the surface, not too sensitive to the car setup.
But we can ask the question on to Antony.
What do you think was the hardest choice, to get the best feel for the surface?
Maybe even considering that you hardly got tested enough before each rally.

Not sure I understand the question.
Do you mean which surface is harder to get the car set up right?

Or which surface is hardest for the driver to feel the most comfortable with?

If you mean the car set right, my own experience is limited to loose surface and i say since the surface is itself a big giant variable in the equation depending on so many factors (where do you place the car? The clean line or? Where are you starting 3rd or 45th? so ruts and drive on rails or clean but maybe loose? dry or will it rain? A littl;e rain OK for just dust or really piss-rain? and on and on) I think gravel is easier... now this is speculation because tarmac is so "fremd für mich'' but it SEEMS that if we look at times over some years there are many many more guys that are fighting over onion skin thin differences on tarmac, so it seems that it must be easier to get the car right for MOST people..Or get it 98 or 98.7% right. And even at the highest level say position 11 to 6, that's probably good enough.

But not sure I got the question right....

[Coach 2]

Not sure I understand the question.

Do you mean which surface is harder to get the car set up right?

Or which surface is hardest for the driver to feel the most comfortable with?

If you mean the car set right, my own experience is limited to loose surface and i say since the surface is itself a big giant variable in the equation depending on so many factors (where do you place the car? The clean line or? Where are you starting 3rd or 45th? so ruts and drive on rails or clean but maybe loose? dry or will it rain? A littl;e rain OK for just dust or really piss-rain? and on and on) I think gravel is easier... now this is speculation because tarmac is so "fremd für mich'' but it SEEMS that if we look at times over some years there are many many more guys that are fighting over onion skin thin differences on tarmac, so it seems that it must be easier to get the car right for MOST people..Or get it 98 or 98.7% right. And even at the highest level say position 11 to 6, that's probably good enough.

But not sure I got the question right....

Thanks for the answer Janvan, but the question was meant for Antony W.
The question was meant as follows: If you have a test, normally it is also limited. Therefore, one must make choices under test / before start of the rally, perhaps in the rally. And before you see the result of these choices, which choice could be difficult to carry out / decide.
Sorry my English, and for Google's total lack of good suggestions.

[janvanvurpa]

Thanks for the answer Janvan, but the question was meant for Antony W.
The question was meant as follows: If you have a test, normally it is also limited. Therefore, one must make choices under test / before start of the rally, perhaps in the rally. And before you see the result of these choices, which choice could be difficult to carry out / decide.
Sorry my English, and for Google's total lack of good suggestions.

Yeah I figured that out after I hit "Post" :imubash:

By the way, what language works better for you?

[OldF]

have a good evening

Last evening for me was little bit more TV because there was an interesting document about a 11 year old girl that had been run over by a tram. She lost her left foot but after recovering and with prosthesis she could continue with her enthusiasm for gymnastic with some limits. The other one was the movie “Slumdog Millionaire”. OK, these were off-topic but this was how I spent my yesterday evening.

Thanks for the clarification about “driving from the rear”. I suspected something like this but I was far from sure about it. How about the definition of suspension?


Hej Gammal Finne, if its OK to poke my nose in a little?

Hejsan sveisan gamla gubben. I’m not so old, just turned only 59. It’s of course OK for you to poke your nose here on this forum but otherwise be careful where you poke your nose.

Btw, do you have any access to “surströmming” in the States?

Thanks for the explanations.


Anti roll bars work by making the car corner flatter but they do that by lifting the INSIDE wheel...Follow with me a bit?

Yes, or at least I think so.

I’ve explained this to myself in the following way. When cornering the outside wheels goes up (springs and shock absorbers are compressed) and due to the anti-roll-bar the inside wheels will follow this movement (how much depends of the stiffness of the ARBs). But when the inside wheels go up but not going to stay in the air and instead being in contact with surface, the body shell is straighten because the inside wheels (or the inside part of the ARB) is pulling the inside of the body shell down and straighten the body shell.

The ARBs transfer the weight from the inside to the outside and how much depends on the stiffness of the ARBs. The stiffer the ARBs are, the more weight transfer. Generally more weight on a wheel gives better grip but the next thing is the grip between the tyre and the surface. With more weight transfer (stiff ARB) only the outer wheel have to take care of the grip and if the friction is not enough, the wheel starts to slide. I believe that a roll of a car is not because of too fast approach to a corner but that the driver hit something on the inside of a corner that will roll the car. Whit a softer ARB, the weight transfer is more even between outside and inside wheels and the overall grip is better.

Correct me where I’m wrong.

What I’ve been written above is from a book I have, “The tuners handbook – the chassis”.

It includes chapters like basics of driving dynamics including camber, caster, toe, center of gravity and the axle that the body shell rolling around (I don’t remember the English word for this but it’s the axle between the front center of roll and rear center of roll that the body shell roll around in corners) and how the different adjustments / set-ups affects the handling of the car. Other chapters is about the springs, dampers, steering, transmission / drive train, breaks, tyres, rims, reinforcing the body shell (safety cage and reinforcement of suspension parts attachments points, protection of the chassis) and aerodynamics. At the end of the book is a summary of what affects under steering, over steering, traction when accelerating, to much nod when braking, to much curtsy when accelerating etc.

And…

A mega internet page about these things you can find here (http://home.scarlet.be/%7Ebe067749/58/). I don't remeber who of the forum member originally posted this link. It’s about R/C cars but the physics are the same maybe an exception of the ratio between sprung mass and unsprung mass.


at grN evos even 2mm has a lot of difference.Most drivers prefere the medium one(3 choices as well)


The ARB's were hollow tubes, not plain. ie: as I understood it, "25x2,5" meant "25mm" was the total diameter of the tube and "2,5mm" was the thickness of the tube wall. Somebody may have to corect me on this 'caus it's been a long time....


you are right Antony

Thanks for the info. You’re building cars and you have good info about these things. Btw, are you driving yourselves also?

[Antony Warmbold]

"What do you think was the hardest choice, to get the best feel for the surface?"

Hi Coach2,
Things became much easier for me when I got the proper diff maps in the car, around middle of 2005. Up until that time, the few times that we tested were mainly dedicated to diff mapping. It was by far the most complicated thing to figure out. On your own, you needed A LOT of km's to manage to have something good. So the toughest choices to make up until then was diff maps for the rally. There was a lot of unknown.

After the maps were sorted, suddenly, I started feeling much better the grip. Like I said this car had a very sane behavior so with the right diff maps it was really a very good car.

So, providing that you were not using completely wrong tires for a given surface, the feel for the grip was fantastic.

After that, you can adjust your ALS "brutality". It was important to have the ALS not too hardcore if it's very slippery.

Going harder on the damper clicks in compression (compared to the base setup) helped me get more feedback from the road grip and feel for it.

--Changing this on the focus was not an option, and not necessary, but having too "light steering" (strong power steering) like on the Corolla WRC was a real pain for me. The focus gave much better feel for the grip when you turned the wheel.

That's all I can think of right now!

Good night. :)

[kober]

I have started a blog which is intended for sharing my experiences in rally.I had just discovered the blog, but I've read it all already. What a great source of info on privateers' side of WRC! Keep posting, please :)

[Antony Warmbold]

I had just discovered the blog, but I've read it all already. What a great source of info on privateers' side of WRC! Keep posting, please :)

I have bowed to your request: WRC behind the stages: The big No-No (http://wrcbehindthestages.blogspot.com/2012/09/the-big-no-no.html)

Cheers,

[Coach 2]

I’ve explained this to myself in the following way. When cornering the outside wheels goes up (springs and shock absorbers are compressed) and due to the anti-roll-bar the inside wheels will follow this movement (how much depends of the stiffness of the ARBs). But when the inside wheels go up but not going to stay in the air and instead being in contact with surface, the body shell is straighten because the inside wheels (or the inside part of the ARB) is pulling the inside of the body shell down and straighten the body shell.

Agree.

X The ARBs transfer the weight from the inside to the outside and how much depends on the stiffness of the ARBs. Don't agree. The ARB's transfer weight from outside to inside. X The stiffer the ARBs are, the more weight transfer. Generally more weight on a wheel gives better grip but the next thing is the grip between the tyre and the surface. Agree X With more weight transfer (stiff ARB) only the outer wheel have to take care of the grip and if the friction is not enough, the wheel starts to slide. Not agree. With less weight transfer (to the outside) you get less grip. And because of less grip the outside wheel starts to slide. X I believe that a roll of a car is not because of too fast approach to a corner but that the driver hit something on the inside of a corner that will roll the car. X Whit a softer ARB, the weight transfer is more even between outside and inside wheels and the overall grip is better. Not agree. Whit a softer ARB, the weight transfer is less even between outside and inside, and the overall grip is better X

ARB's transfer weight from outside to inside, or put another way, transfer grip from outside to inside. But not all of the grip you lose on the outside is transferd to the inside. Some of the grip is lost. But what you get is better handling and faster weight shift. This is necessary on asfalt or when you have a lot of grip.

Correct me where I’m wrong.



Thank you for a nice answer Antony W.

Also, are you agree with this conclusion Antony.

[Antony Warmbold]

Thank you for a nice answer Antony W.

Also, are you agree with this conclusion Antony.

Hi Coach 2,
Your post & the things you agree with, that OldF wrote, makes sense to me. Although I'd like to stay cautious about how to explain: weight transfer, shift, and how it relates to grip because I don't have an engineer's knowledge on how the physics work. My area of expertise is rather hands on. But anyway, it sounds right to me!

[OldF]

@ Coach 2

I emphasize that what I’m saying is based on what I've read and how I interpret what I've been reading.


X The ARBs transfer the weight from the inside to the outside and how much depends on the stiffness of the ARBs. Don't agree. The ARB's transfer weight from outside to inside.

The author of the book I have says:

“Paradoxically on the other hand, is that the anti-roll bar will increase the weight transfer from the inside to the outside.”

Btw, the author has a master of engineering degree from a technical university, so I think he know the theory. The “Tuners handbook 1 (tuning a four-stroke engine)” was based on his master thesis.

I had to make some Googling to find more information.

Here are web sites with an example.

Physics/ theories of Sway bar (http://www.ephatch.com/forum/showthread.php?62846-Physics-theories-of-Sway-bar&)

This is imo the best web site I found explaining how the weight transfer occurs. There is probably a little error in the explanation.

“So now we have a 25 lb upwards thrust on the Right spring (should imo be the left spring) that happens to have a downward force of 125 lbs. So, we have to subtract that 25 lbs from the amount of weight actually making it to that sides contact patch & Add it to the contact patch of the Right.”

How Weight (or Load) Transfer Affects Handling of a Race car (http://www.ozebiz.com.au/racetech/theory/wedgex.html)

Anti-Sway Bars: A Primer - Automotive Articles .com Magazine (http://www.automotivearticles.com/123/Anti-sway_bars.shtml)

“What a sway bar does is counteract the action of body roll during cornering by transferring spring rate from the inside wheel to the outside wheel in a corner. This means that you don't actually get any added spring rate; you just subtract it from one side and add it to the other.”

And few more “inside to outside” web sites.

TurnFast! Race Driving Techniques for Heel Toe Downshift, Driving Line, Cornering, Braking, and More (http://www.turnfast.com/tech_handling/handling_antiroll)

“On the outside tire, this downward pressure helps increase tire traction. However, on the inside tire, the anti-roll bar is pushing up on the suspension reducing the downward force the spring is trying to place to keep the tire on road. If the anti-roll bar is too stiff, it will overpower the spring, prevent it from extending enough to keep the tire on the road, and the wheel will
actually lift off the ground.”

Anti-roll bar (http://www.aplinet.net/rf2guide/index.php?topic=64.0)

“Here is how they work: the anti-roll bar ties the left and right side springs and dampers together laterally…….. However in a turn, the weight transfer is from inside to outside. The inside wheels travels down (losing sprung weight) as the inside springs releases energy under weight transfer and the outside wheels travels up (remember the car weight is rolling inside to outside) as the outside springs absorbs more energy. This causes the anti-roll bar to twist its ends in opposite directions.”

Formula Sheane - The Cars (http://www.formulasheane.ie/fs/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=13&Itemid=47)

“Anti-roll bars control where the transferred weight goes. Let’s imagine your car has no front anti-roll bar and a rear anti-roll bar made from inch thick Titanium bar. When your car turns into a corner it is going to transfer weight from the inside to the outside. The titanium girder is going to resist that transfer. In doing so, it is going to put all the weight onto the outside rear tyre.”


X With more weight transfer (stiff ARB) only the outer wheel has to take care of the grip and if the friction is not enough, the wheel starts to slide. Not agree. With less weight transfer (to the outside) you get less grip. And because of less grip the outside wheel starts to slide.

More weight, more grip of course. But as said on web sites below (and the book) the weight transfer is not linear. The inner wheel is lifted up by the anti-roll bar as it’s commonly explained and it has less weight on it compared to the outer wheel.

The outer wheel (tyre) has more weight (more grip), but at some point the outer wheel (tyre) loose the grip because it can’t handle the centripetal force made by the cornering of a car at high speed vs. the vertical force made by the weight transfer (which is not linear) to the outer tyre.

The friction coefficient between the surface and the tyre decides when it’s going to happen and when it happens, the car starts to slide.

Front Sway Bar, how it works (http://mgaguru.com/mgtech/suspensn/fs101a.htm)

“Making the front sway bar stiffer adds weight to the outside front wheel while reducing weight on the inside front wheel, and vice versa at the rear.”

“Lateral grip for a tire increases with weight loading, but is not linear. Increasing load on a tire by 50% may only increase lateral grip by 30%. This represents a reduction of grip efficiency.”

“That is, if you overload one tire by reducing load on the other tire (on the same axle), the total lateral grip is reduced.”

FTW Racing - Fabricated To Win (http://www.ftw.com.au/Automotive/Tech_Info/Roll_Center_Center_of_Gravity__Weight_Transfer.htm l)

“The problem here is that the weight to grip relationship is not linear. This means the grip lost by the more lightly loaded wheel is not made up by the increased grip of the more heavily loaded outer wheel and as a consequence their combined grip diminishes.”

“During a turn the vehicle goes into roll, the front roll bar dramatically transfers weight from the front inner to front outer, almost lifting the inner wheel off the ground.”


X Whit a softer ARB, the weight transfer is more even between outside and inside wheels and the overall grip is better. Not agree. Whit a softer ARB, the weight transfer is less even between outside and inside, and the overall grip is better X

ARB's transfer weight from outside to inside, or put another way, transfer grip from outside to inside. But not all of the grip you lose on the outside is transferd to the inside. Some of the grip is lost. But what you get is better handling and faster weight shift. This is necessary on asfalt or when you have a lot of grip.[/QUOTE]

I agree with the two last sentences.

The web sites I’ve read with a mention of understeer or oversteer (and also in the book) is saying that for example a stiffer ARB in the front compared to the rear (or no ARB at the rear), makes the car understeer (front looses the grip first => better grip in the rear) and visa versa.

As known the basic function of an ARB is to decrease the body shell rolling. For an example with an ARB in the front, the rear doesn’t roll (less weight transfer) as much as without any ARBs and the grip at the rear is more even between the inside and the outside.

Have a look at this web site: How Weight (or Load) Transfer Affects Handling of a Race car (http://www.ozebiz.com.au/racetech/theory/wedgex.html) (same as in the beginning of this post).

[Coach 2]

Hello OldF, and thank you for the answer.
I think your answer (or what you refer to) are two ways of saying the same. I would also agree that he mean left when i wrote right. I will also try to make my answer readable for everybody, and not be to technical.
But some technical stuff is needed.
When a car is tilted due to centrifugal forces, the tilt is made by the weight which rests on the springs. In opposition to the suspension, that have a lot of weight that don't rest on the springs.
So, when you but on a ARB or put on a stiffer, you would limit the roll or tilt and by that keep more weight on the inner wheel. Less weight transfer. But you ad/transfer weight of the inner suspension (and also some of the weight that rest on the spring that has increased because of less roll) to outer by lifting it with th ARB.
But the most important (you and i could agree to this claim) by doing this (putting on ARB/stiffer ARB) the overall grip on the same axle is reduced.

“That is, if you overload one tire by reducing load on the other tire (on the same axle), the total lateral grip is reduced.”

And because of this reduction the car have less grip on the axle with ARB.
So as you wrote.
"The web sites I’ve read with a mention of understeer or oversteer (and also in the book) is saying that for example a stiffer ARB in the front compared to the rear (or no ARB at the rear), makes the car understeer (front looses the grip first => better grip in the rear) and visa versa".

Humble Coach 2.

[OldF]

Hi Coach 2,

Seems the problem is solved. Things can be explained in different ways and I explained in the way that suits my head. :)

[Coach 2]

Hi Coach 2,

Seems the problem is solved. Things can be explained in different ways and I explained in the way that suits my head. :)

And thanks to you for answering me polite, cause my first answer to you was a little to tough.
And maybe the best way of seeing this problem is as your answer Antony.

Hi Coach 2,
Your post & the things you agree with, that OldF wrote, makes sense to me. Although I'd like to stay cautious about how to explain: weight transfer, shift, and how it relates to grip because I don't have an engineer's knowledge on how the physics work. My area of expertise is rather hands on. But anyway, it sounds right to me!

Agree, in a team, we leaves this to the engineer's.

[OldF]

Don’t worry Coach 2. Imo your answer wasn’t tough.

[br21]

hi
when we can expect new blog entry? it's been a long, long time since last update... maybe now something about rallying in winter conditions, car setup for snow, etc?

[Antony Warmbold]

hi
when we can expect new blog entry? it's been a long, long time since last update... maybe now something about rallying in winter conditions, car setup for snow, etc?

Hi br21,

I'll see what I can do :) but right now it's a bit hard...I'm waiting for inspiration.

Happy new year !

[Antony Warmbold]

There is a new blog post about setups etc.

http://wrcbehindthestages.blogspot.fr/2014/09/space-jump-or-car-setup.html

Cheers,

[Antony Warmbold]

Hi Everyone!

For those interested I have posted a new blog entry and this time I am exploring the wonderful world of tires.

http://wrcbehindthestages.blogspot.de/2014/12/the-tire-conundrum.html

Have a great day!

[TyPat107]

Awesome post!
I am pretty interested in geometry as well if you ever feel like getting carried way more on that subject. ;) People here have been know to claim it doesn't matter much on a gravel car, stick everything at "0" (toe and camber, front and rear) and run it.

[Munkvy]

I would be very interested in anything you could tell us about the different types of geometry setup you used, I do mainly tarmac rallying so would be interested to hear more about what WRC teams do.

Thanks again for taking the time to share with us!

[Antony Warmbold]

Happy you liked it guys! I've noted the requests and will try to sort something on near future!

In the meantime I am preparing something really cool aimed at rally fans and I am racing against time to launch it before christmas.

See you soon!

[Lundefaret]

There is a new blog post about setups etc.

http://wrcbehindthestages.blogspot.fr/2014/09/space-jump-or-car-setup.html

Cheers,

I was not able to comment in Your blog, so I will do it here, and at the same time say that everyone that hasnt should read Mr Warmbolds blog!

Interesting read: In the classic case of understeer on entry, and oversteer on exit, 9 times out of 10 it is the driver him self that is creating his own difficulties. This is by going too fast and too tight on the entry. The inside corner is sharper than the outside one, and too fast is always too fast. This will create understeer. The oversteer comes from the inputs the driver does to correct the understeer. Slowing down the front, making a big weight transfer towards the front, while wanting the front of the car to change direction. As soon as the front starts changing direction, the rear will continue in the same direction, because of the lack of grip created by the exessive speed/weight transfer, and this will result in oversteer.
The remedy would be to be earlier on the brakes, turn in later with a wider line, and be earlier on the throttle, so you get on the throttle side on the diff. This You should do before You start adjusting things on Your car, because You should adjust it after when You are doing it right, not compensating for problems You make Your self ;)

Thanks for the blog, a very good read!

[BDA Cosworth]

nice to have someone on here like yourself...

when you started rallying at top level and you saw that the results weren't there and that your future was not in an official team due to lack of skills, what kept you going and paying more ? was it the fact that you still had a small hope and didn't want to leave it? or you had too much fun and you were just spending the money like on a hobby ?

OMG!!!!! Really?

[stefanvv]

:D

[Franky]

OMG!!!!! Really?

Do you have a problem with N.O.T? Don't really see the point of dragging one post up from 2011 ...

[N.O.T]

OMG!!!!! Really?

It is a valid question... i prefer questions from ass licking, they taste better...

[Rallyper]

I was not able to comment in Your blog, so I will do it here, and at the same time say that everyone that hasnt should read Mr Warmbolds blog!

Interesting read: In the classic case of understeer on entry, and oversteer on exit, 9 times out of 10 it is the driver him self that is creating his own difficulties. This is by going too fast and too tight on the entry. The inside corner is sharper than the outside one, and too fast is always too fast. This will create understeer. The oversteer comes from the inputs the driver does to correct the understeer. Slowing down the front, making a big weight transfer towards the front, while wanting the front of the car to change direction. As soon as the front starts changing direction, the rear will continue in the same direction, because of the lack of grip created by the exessive speed/weight transfer, and this will result in oversteer.
The remedy would be to be earlier on the brakes, turn in later with a wider line, and be earlier on the throttle, so you get on the throttle side on the diff. This You should do before You start adjusting things on Your car, because You should adjust it after when You are doing it right, not compensating for problems You make Your self ;)

Thanks for the blog, a very good read!

Are you talking 4WD, 2RWD or 2FWD, with or without handbrake. So many ways correction could be done. A driver also has a pedal to the right... Pedal to the metal often makes good corrections.

[COD]

I was not able to comment in Your blog, so I will do it here, and at the same time say that everyone that hasnt should read Mr Warmbolds blog!

Interesting read: In the classic case of understeer on entry, and oversteer on exit, 9 times out of 10 it is the driver him self that is creating his own difficulties. This is by going too fast and too tight on the entry. The inside corner is sharper than the outside one, and too fast is always too fast. This will create understeer. The oversteer comes from the inputs the driver does to correct the understeer. Slowing down the front, making a big weight transfer towards the front, while wanting the front of the car to change direction. As soon as the front starts changing direction, the rear will continue in the same direction, because of the lack of grip created by the exessive speed/weight transfer, and this will result in oversteer.
The remedy would be to be earlier on the brakes, turn in later with a wider line, and be earlier on the throttle, so you get on the throttle side on the diff. This You should do before You start adjusting things on Your car, because You should adjust it after when You are doing it right, not compensating for problems You make Your self ;)

Thanks for the blog, a very good read!

Turn in later with wider line, is theoretically very good idea.
Try doing that on gravel, when all the loose gravel is on the outside of the corner, and you will either go off or loose a lot of time with wheelspin.
On tarmac it could work better, unless someone before you has cut and brought gravel and dirt to the outside, then the result is the same as on gravel.

[Lundefaret]

Turn in later with wider line, is theoretically very good idea.
Try doing that on gravel, when all the loose gravel is on the outside of the corner, and you will either go off or loose a lot of time with wheelspin.
On tarmac it could work better, unless someone before you has cut and brought gravel and dirt to the outside, then the result is the same as on gravel.

It is actually the complete opposite. It has to do with how much or little sideways forces You want acting at Your cars/tires at certain points of a turn.
The Loeb-remedy for tarmac stages with dirt/low friction on the mid apex is to go in deeper, make more of the directional change earlier, and then straighten the line over the low friction area so to start acceleration earlier. This is when acceleration is wanted, and huge cuts prohibited.
The same goes for gravel and snow, just watch Ogier, Loeb, Mäkkinen, Mikkelsen (on the first 1,5 days of this years Rally Sweden were he drove brilliantly), and so on.

My point was that Warmbolds blogg entry was very interesting, but that one needs to be certain what is the driver, and what is the car.
If You have an older rallycar with no adjustments, You have to adjust your self to the car, and this ability is a lot more worth than being able to adjust the car to one self.
This is because You can run the car closer to the theoretically perfect setting, and because of tire wear, changes in grip levels etc, the stage will vary in many parameters.

Going up trough gokarts etc, whit a focus on making the kart perfect for the driver, is not how to become the next Loeb or Ogier or Mäkinen or Röhrl. ;)

[tomhlord]

Hi Anthony, I would love to hear your thoughts about this video, "Behind the Scenes at M-Sport" (a nice '2011' turbo at 12:32). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYbMk50awO0

[Antony Warmbold]

Hi Anthony, I would love to hear your thoughts about this video, "Behind the Scenes at M-Sport" (a nice '2011' turbo at 12:32). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYbMk50awO0

Hi Tom, I watched it with interest. They speak about rebuilds etc. Nothing special for me there. I would have liked more info from the gearbox man... I noted from the damper man that the smaller spring is indeed a helper spring and not a tender. Therefore it seems M-Sport is still using a linear spring suspension system. From 10:32 the ride height adjuster was interesting. He says the driver resets it inside the car..."obviously when he is stopped (with a smile)..." The 2004 Focus had a ride height adjuster which was driven by a pump and controlled by buttons on the steering wheel. I understand that nowadays it's supposed to be manual so I wonder how you reset it from inside the car (straight forward question). Maybe they handle a manual hydraulic pump somehow. The turbo part was interesting as well. 155.000rpm, 1.000°c, 70L/sec, 1.000km before rebuild, 2.000km on test car...

All in all a cool video!

[AMSS]

Hi Tom, I watched it with interest. They speak about rebuilds etc. Nothing special for me there. I would have liked more info from the gearbox man... I noted from the damper man that the smaller spring is indeed a helper spring and not a tender. Therefore it seems M-Sport is still using a linear spring suspension system. From 10:32 the ride height adjuster was interesting. He says the driver resets it inside the car..."obviously when he is stopped (with a smile)..." The 2004 Focus had a ride height adjuster which was driven by a pump and controlled by buttons on the steering wheel. I understand that nowadays it's supposed to be manual so I wonder how you reset it from inside the car (straight forward question). Maybe they handle a manual hydraulic pump somehow. The turbo part was interesting as well. 155.000rpm, 1.000°c, 70L/sec, 1.000km before rebuild, 2.000km on test car...

All in all a cool video!

Attached(hopefully) some pictures, in the picture from the trunk you can see the adjuster unit. It's the black tube by witch turning you hydraulically adjust the ride height. Basically you just turn a piston that increases or decreases the spring bottom. Rules prohibit adjusting when driving so that's why the adjuster is situated in the trunk and in the engine compartment on the fiestas.

[Rallyper]

Yeah, we want part two ASAP. The assembly of the car.

[br21]

Hi Tom, I watched it with interest. They speak about rebuilds etc. Nothing special for me there. I would have liked more info from the gearbox man... I noted from the damper man that the smaller spring is indeed a helper spring and not a tender. Therefore it seems M-Sport is still using a linear spring suspension system. From 10:32 the ride height adjuster was interesting. He says the driver resets it inside the car..."obviously when he is stopped (with a smile)..." The 2004 Focus had a ride height adjuster which was driven by a pump and controlled by buttons on the steering wheel. I understand that nowadays it's supposed to be manual so I wonder how you reset it from inside the car (straight forward question). Maybe they handle a manual hydraulic pump somehow. The turbo part was interesting as well. 155.000rpm, 1.000°c, 70L/sec, 1.000km before rebuild, 2.000km on test car...

All in all a cool video!

Yes, they use linear spring. Small one is helper. Sometimes on tarmac they use additional, very stiff tender, so then 3 springs in total.
Ride height adjusting canister allows lifting the car two times. Then needs to be charged which is done during the service. It is operated manualy - by hand.
Turbo figures sound rather typical, so nothing special.
But I also agree that it's pretty interesting movie.

[Antony Warmbold]

Attached(hopefully) some pictures, in the picture from the trunk you can see the adjuster unit. It's the black tube by witch turning you hydraulically adjust the ride height. Basically you just turn a piston that increases or decreases the spring bottom. Rules prohibit adjusting when driving so that's why the adjuster is situated in the trunk and in the engine compartment on the fiestas.

Thanks a lot for your input! I see the ARB (purple rod) as well! It did not pass inside the trunk on the 2004 Focus.

[Antony Warmbold]

Yes, they use linear spring. Small one is helper. Sometimes on tarmac they use additional, very stiff tender, so then 3 springs in total.
Ride height adjusting canister allows lifting the car two times. Then needs to be charged which is done during the service. It is operated manualy - by hand.
Turbo figures sound rather typical, so nothing special.
But I also agree that it's pretty interesting movie.

I think on the 2004 Focus the ride height control system had an amplitude of around 30mm (gravel). Are they getting similar figures today?

[Lundefaret]

Hello Antony, regarding the springs. I would think that a progressive spring set up would be helpful getting one over the treshold, but still maintaning a stiff a spring as possible, what do You think about that?
The tarmac tender, what is the mission for this?

[Antony Warmbold]

Hello Antony, regarding the springs. I would think that a progressive spring set up would be helpful getting one over the treshold, but still maintaning a stiff a spring as possible, what do You think about that?
The tarmac tender, what is the mission for this?

Hi Lundefaret,

Please clarify "getting one over the treshold".
Do you mean "one" --> the driver?
"Threshold" ?

Thanks,

[Lundefaret]

Hi Lundefaret,

Please clarify "getting one over the treshold".
Do you mean "one" --> the driver?
"Threshold" ?

Thanks,

Hello Antony, tanks for taking the time :)

One= the driver

Threshold: The point that must be exceeded to begin producing a given effect or result or to elicit a response.

I am talking about the threshold of the suspension set up, wich You must exceed to get in to the "working area", "scope" (need a good word ;) of the suspension.

The most common mistake regarding threshold is to put it to high during testing, because You know the road by heart etc, and can push more/put more load in the suspension, but then be surprised when the car dont turn at all on the first stage of the rally proper.

Using a two spring system (or a progressive spring) where one is softer should in my mind lower the initial threshold, making it easier to reach the threshold proper.
This would come with a downside, and that is that it will take a little longer to reach the maximum of the suspension, and that it will lead too a little more (as much as the softer spring/part of the spring will allow) movement in the car, wich has both upsides and downsides.

What do You think about this?

About the tender: Is that a bump stop off sorts?

[br21]

Yes, in recent versions of Fiestas - WRC, S2000 and R5 rear ARB is going inside the trunk of the car. Only difference is in R5 it's solid rod, in WRC/S2k it was pipe (with hole inside). Also in R5 you have two possitions to adjust ARB blade.
I don't remember exactly, but that adjustable suspension should be around 30mm also in recent cars.
Tender spring is very rare, way more often progressive spring is used, but not in case of Reiger/M-Sport combination. Sometimes they use very hard tender on tarmac, but only in specific situations and not with all drivers. It has very small working range and is working only when main spring is fully loaded - so under braking or on long corner.

[Antony Warmbold]

"One= the driver"

--> ok!

"Threshold: The point that must be exceeded to begin producing a given effect or result or to elicit a response.

I am talking about the threshold of the suspension set up, wich You must exceed to get in to the "working area", "scope" (need a good word of the suspension."

--> ok, got it thanks.

"The most common mistake regarding threshold is to put it to high during testing, because You know the road by heart etc, and can push more/put more load in the suspension, but then be surprised when the car dont turn at all on the first stage of the rally proper."

--> ok.

"Using a two spring system (or a progressive spring) where one is softer should in my mind lower the initial threshold, making it easier to reach the threshold proper.
This would come with a downside, and that is that it will take a little longer to reach the maximum of the suspension, and that it will lead too a little more (as much as the softer spring/part of the spring will allow) movement in the car, wich has both upsides and downsides.

What do You think about this?"

--> I see what you are saying. I can only speak as a driver with a driver's point of view. Let's say I'd sit in a new car for the first time. The engineer in charge of the test would tell me "...yeah we put our development driver's settings in...have a go and we take it from there..."

From that point on I will just drive up and down at rally speed and look for improving the stage time (If I am specifically testing for that) ; look for improving the handling - confidence aspect ; test for behavior on jumps, bumps, cuts, braking, etc. Then there is the whole game of testing with specific tires after a tire regulation change for example.

So when I test I am not thinking about "...is my setting allowing me to reach the threshold?" In my viewpoint this is something an engineer worries about.

I am thinking "is my setup allowing me to go faster than my reference time and do I feel good about the car?"

Because at the end of the day if an engineer puts a ridiculously soft spring and damper on my rally car I will be sitting on the bump stop when leaning on my tires in first corner and result will be immediate loss of grip and/or spinning. Or if it's a jump we'll both loose our teeth on it. So I'll tell the engineer "something is wrong I cant do any speed in corners". but this sort of scenario never happens. My dad has stories about this from seventies but it's not happening since a long time in professional teams.

On the 2004 Focus I never ventured far from the factory driver's setups because their theoretical setup was very good, totally driveable. I had a 4N softer spring on rear with a very thin ARB because I wanted more grip on the rear (understeering car) because I had precise notes and I knew exactly where to go and hence could go more aggressively in corners and more grip on rear suited my driving style. I also had harder low speed settings on dampers because I felt the car better. Then we ran slightly modified Markko Martin spec diff maps and all the geometry / ride height was standard.

When you speak about drivers having a wrong setup for the rally; from my experience what I saw was a tendency for drivers to go softer and softer with dampers...because yes when you know the test stage by heart and anticipate every aspect of the road you can indeed improve the time by going softer and looking for traction. In the rally however, you are on 350km of stages recceed twice at 70kph in an airport rental car so your rally car will for sure feel like a lazy donkey which "is out of balance" and "bumps through on the rocks" with your airpump suspension which feels like you are on a 30ft sailboat in middle of Atlantic.

About the progressive springs I have always believed there was a reason why Tommi Makinen won 4 championships in a row, apart from his skills. I heard him speak about how his car (mistu) had "the perfect balance between suspension and transmission". When he started in our Mazda's we had progressive springs and he went on to Mitsubish eventually with our engineer who took that knowledge over there.

Unfortunately I never had a chance to test them on my cars so that's about all I can tell you about that.

My personal belief is that Ford sticks to linear because they are convinced their damper does the job. Maybe they tried progressives and it did not work better.

All I know is that for MAZDA, finding the right springs meant lots and lots of custom orders from EIBACH with different specs of ramps etc before finding the ones that worked. Also Ingvar Carlsson and Timo Salonen had a real knack for testing those.

So who knows, maybe they are right.



"About the tender: Is that a bump stop off sorts?"

-->here is explanation of tender: http://wrcbehindthestages.blogspot.nl/2012/02/springs-co.html

The bump stop is something else which prevents damper damage on heavy impacts.

I hope all this makes sense to you!

Regards,

[SubaruNorway]

Anyone got a WRC wheel alignment printout, gravel/tarmac anything will do.

Would be interesting to see and to compare with RSRBR.

[Antony Warmbold]

Anyone got a WRC wheel alignment printout, gravel/tarmac anything will do.

Would be interesting to see and to compare with RSRBR.

This is my car's geometry for Monte Carlo 2003 (2002 Focus WRC)

[br21]

Typical M-Sport, they don't care about castor.
Also rear toe-in is quite big, which is interesting.
Anybody know what was max wheelbase and track allowed for Focus then?

BTW. Current cars geo settings I wrote some days ago in other thread - tech stuff

[Mirek]

I also noticed the difference between left and right front castor and found it interesting. If I'm not mistaken the rear toe-in makes the car more understeering, right? That would fit with what Antony wrote about his preferred car behavior. I have seen several asphalt setups and in some there was rear toe-out used. However that was with fully mechanical S2000 cars while Focus WRC 02 was fully active car.

I think that for 2-litre WRC cars there was same rule for wheelbase as for recent cars which means stock value +/- 1%. That would mean 2615 mm +/- 26,15 mm in case of Focus. I'm not sure though. I have no idea about track limit.

[dimviii]

If I'm not mistaken the rear toe-in makes the car more understeering, right? .

i would say a little bit different,with toe in at rear, you make the car not to oversteer.

[Rallyper]

toe in at rear gives the advantage of having a car that goes on straights in 150 Km/h without crawling. Makes the driver more confident not having to compensate with steering all the time.

[br21]

Toe in in rear usually makes car more stable - less overstear, like all above said. Usually in non-active cars most people use some smaller toe-in, but that really depends on driver.
So if max wheelbase allowed was 2641mm they had still some way to make car "longer" - more stable, etc.
From what I noticed MSport never really paid attention to castor and all cars from them which I saw had different castor on both sides. Still castor around 8 is nothing special, but don't know the construction of its suspension too good.

[Mirek]

Thanks guys about the toe-in at rear. I actually meant it like You said (less oversteer, more longitudinal stability) just wrote it incorrect.

[Antony Warmbold]

Hi and happy new year guys! (and girls)

I have made a special video for all motorsport fans! You can call it my new year contribution.

http://youtu.be/Vhwm1sjKV6I

[Antony Warmbold]

Hi everyone !

If you'd like to get a view some of the co-driver's many jobs, here's a video about it :


http://youtu.be/P9rje-aPNi0


Cheers,

Antony

[tbtstt]

Found and signed up to this forum as a consequence of your blog Antony. Please keep the posts coming, some absolutely fascintating reading on your blog!

[Antony Warmbold]

Found and signed up to this forum as a consequence of your blog Antony. Please keep the posts coming, some absolutely fascintating reading on your blog!

Thanks! you made my day !!

[Antony Warmbold]

Did a little piece of comparison between Tänak and Ogier on my blog

http://wrcbehindthestages.blogspot.fr/2015/05/ogier-vs-tanak.html

Cheers,

[EstWRC]

Thanks a lot. Actually Tänak didnt have a real go at this powerstage, he said he tried to add some more pace but that was it. But yeah I also noticed on sweden onboards that Tänak loses a lot in the twisty slow sections compared to Ogier and on the fast parts he doesnt lose time or is even faster than Ogier. And i agree that it is down to confidence and experience, which Tänak hasnt got a lot at the moment because of the recent incidents. We will see what he can do with the new upgraded Fiesta, he has said that it will suit him more.

[stefanvv]

It is a rare privilege to watch such fast driving on such a rough and technical stage. Ogier literally "ran over" it. In such cases one can see the real difference why some drivers have more "luck" avoiding troubles than others.

[OldF]

I tried the calculator with the Polo RX values (http://www.volkswagen-motorsport.com/index.php?id=823&L=1), 0-100 km/h = 2,1s and 1300 kg. Got an odd result, 825 PS.:confused:

[Antony Warmbold]

I tried the calculator with the Polo RX values (http://www.volkswagen-motorsport.com/index.php?id=823&L=1), 0-100 km/h = 2,1s and 1300 kg. Got an odd result, 825 PS.:confused:

well 850N of torque is huge so hell...why not !!!

[Jack#07]

Hello Antony,
I read all your topic and it is absolutely fantastic.
Not sure if you still provide support to rally fans but I want to try to ask you a question about something that really confuse me and it seems that no one actually knows.
The hot question is about steering lock ratios of modern wrc cars and its applications on driving and on setups.
Fiesta/focus wrc specs on M-sport site says: "Steering: Power-assisted high-ratio (12:1) rack and pinion. One and a half turns lock to lock."
From onboard cams I noticed that most of the wrc cars actually have 540° of steering wheel rotation but some seems to have only about 360° or little more (It's not easy to retreive it from onboards) So, Is it adjustable? The other part of the question is about rotation angle of wheels. 12:1 ratio means that the wheels can be phisically turned a total of 45° from lock to lock.
I tend to think that it is a low value for a car that is frequently sideways, most of street derived cars have about 60° of wheels rotation and I think that an high value (even if not always used during driving) can help you to recover the car in the case of sudden loss of grip or if you exceed on slip angles... Is even this adjustable on WRC cars?
I would like to ask you if you can confirm the m-sport values and (if they are actually adjustable) what steering/wheels lock values were you running on different rallies or surfaces conditions.
Thank you :)

[Antony Warmbold]

Hiya Jack, 360° on a wrc car - I have never seen. But one and half turn sounds right for all the cars I've driven. I have never heard a driver or a tech speaking of or wanting to change the ratio or adjusting it - but anything is possible to do if you really need to. My feeling is if someone would make the steering more direct it would make the car more difficult to drive. I am unable to answer about the rotation angle of the wheels, sorry. But I can say that whatever angle they turn to, it always felt like plenty. A proper gravel driver will use speed, throttle and brake to make the car turn with as little big steering inputs as possible; maximum traction is attained with the front wheels straight. If you see a good driver coming around a corner with full opposite lock it's probably because he accidentally put the rear wheels in the loose and lost the rear. Hope this helps a bit with your questions!

[Mirek]

Dear Jack, the reason why WRC cars have low steering rotation (i.e. very large turning radius) is IMO in driveshaft joints limitation. When front wheels are powered, especially with huge torque You need to keep the angle rather low, otherwise driveshaft brakes. I give an example from cheap rally car with stock steering - You can take commom old Honda Civic VTi with 170 Hp 1.6 engine with very low torque. The stock steering allows so high angle of the driveshaft joint that with LSD it is very easy to break the driveshaft just by pushing full throtle on first gear in full turn.

That's also why You can see very high steering angles possible with RWD cars - there are no driveshafts in front. Simple as that.

Anyway the turning radius limitation is more of an issue on asphalt than on gravel. It means some corners You need to take with handbrake because otherwise You have to reverse.

PS The driveshaft joint extreme angles are kind of limitation also for suspension travel. With McPherson struts the more travel the higher angle of the driveshaft joints.

[Jack#07]

Thank you for your replies, maybe I tought that it was more important than it actually is!
Hiya Jack, 360° on a wrc car - I have never seen. But one and half turn sounds right for all the cars I've driven. I supposed 360° after watching this clip of Mekee from 2017 Sweden https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2-eRLOu26E when he turn the wheel exacly 360 degrees recovering the car from a snow bank, but maybe it is just a coincidence, I'm sure that during mexico rally he was using 450 degrees (saw him crearly at lock position during his "car park tour" on the last stage). :)

Dear Jack, the reason why WRC cars have low steering rotation (i.e. very large turning radius) is IMO in driveshaft joints limitation. Very interesting theory, I read a similar supposition here https://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=707665
but the only solution seems to be contacting Prodrive :D

I also read an interesting article about braking from redbull site https://www.redbull.com/gb-en/jari-matti-latvala-art-of-braking
I think that the section "The Loeb effect" could be an interesting topic about how he changed the driving and braking techniques :)

[janvanvurpa]

I must caution you about trusting any rally related information from US fan-boy sites and NASIOC and VW Vortex are first and foremost fan-boy sites..
You see in America it has never been socially acceptable for anybody to say "I don't know"....and this cuts across age, income, race, national origin, sexual preference , everything. I think this bad habit comes from an unfortunate mix of beliefs that Americans somehow imagine that only they have: Everybody was "created equally" and "everybody has a right to their own opinion" which becomes somehow "All opinions are equal"... with disastrous results.
Somebody did say there that older Gp A cars had "about 2,0 turns lock to lock",, This is very close..My Group A 4x4 Cosworth rack has 1,9 turns lock to lock while the road car version is 2,65 turns..
Mirek is spot on about the limiting of rack travel.. here in Fortress Amerika™ where everything is Grape again, VW Golf is very popular...and for 30 years it is a chronic problem of guys breaking the guts of the CV joints and even shearing off the spline part of the outer CV..
Regardless of how many times I have told the guys and even shown them the VWMS (VW Motorsports) catalog and pointed to the nylon spacers to limit max rack travel, I know of nobody who has done it..
They just keep doing the same old stuff and breaking their CVs--and this with barely any power by normal standards...
There's one thing to bear in mind when we say "turns lock to lock" and that is "how much does the rack move per turn of the pinion or steering wheel.. Nobody ever says anything because nobody is interested in facts---remember opinion counts and all opinions are exactly equal..
But I'm only half American and I lived a long time in some cold frozen Northern country to learn motorsports so I count.
Example (not WRC cars but wonderfully good cars anyway) Volvo 240 has nice ZF PS rack, the rack moves 55mm per turn or the wheel..Road car Sierra in USA has nice ZF and that moves 64mm per turn...
Clearly quicker and very good and you can notice it in normal driving..

As for how much is enough or how much is not enough..when i lived in that frozen country up North I rode mainly Husqvarna and for 2 seasons KTM, LOTS of angle.. maybe a bit more than 90*.. For a few of my first prodessional events I road West German Maico..They had MUCH less turning angle..
Never even thought about it on track..Only time it made a difference was in the parking area when I putter along, see my car, turn and pull up to the NEXT guys trailer...
Ooops.

I am curious why you ask, tell us what you are plotting...

[Jack#07]

Thank you.
Since the years of the transition from gr.a to wrc I noticed a gradual reduction of steering wheel total turning degrees (maybe thanks to the more permissive regulations of wrc cars?) I've always wondered how it is determined and if it is a driver preference or it's set by engineers. I can immagine that with less total steering degrees you can drive faster due to shorter and quicker steering inputs but if you exceeed it will result in a too sensitive control.. So it makes me think that reducing the wheels rotation (increasing turn radius) will also help in keeping the car controllable by reducing the sensitivity of the shortened steering wheel inputs...
I thought that the ratio would change from rally to rally but it seems to be fixed or it's just engineer's job..!

[sonnybobiche]

I must caution you about trusting any rally related information from US fan-boy sites and NASIOC and VW Vortex are first and foremost fan-boy sites..
You see in America it has never been socially acceptable for anybody to say "I don't know"....and this cuts across age, income, race, national origin, sexual preference , everything. I think this bad habit comes from an unfortunate mix of beliefs that Americans somehow imagine that only they have: Everybody was "created equally" and "everybody has a right to their own opinion" which becomes somehow "All opinions are equal"... with disastrous results.
Somebody did say there that older Gp A cars had "about 2,0 turns lock to lock",, This is very close..My Group A 4x4 Cosworth rack has 1,9 turns lock to lock while the road car version is 2,65 turns..
Mirek is spot on about the limiting of rack travel.. here in Fortress Amerika™ where everything is Grape again, VW Golf is very popular...and for 30 years it is a chronic problem of guys breaking the guts of the CV joints and even shearing off the spline part of the outer CV..
Regardless of how many times I have told the guys and even shown them the VWMS (VW Motorsports) catalog and pointed to the nylon spacers to limit max rack travel, I know of nobody who has done it..
They just keep doing the same old stuff and breaking their CVs--and this with barely any power by normal standards...
There's one thing to bear in mind when we say "turns lock to lock" and that is "how much does the rack move per turn of the pinion or steering wheel.. Nobody ever says anything because nobody is interested in facts---remember opinion counts and all opinions are exactly equal..
But I'm only half American and I lived a long time in some cold frozen Northern country to learn motorsports so I count.
Example (not WRC cars but wonderfully good cars anyway) Volvo 240 has nice ZF PS rack, the rack moves 55mm per turn or the wheel..Road car Sierra in USA has nice ZF and that moves 64mm per turn...
Clearly quicker and very good and you can notice it in normal driving..

As for how much is enough or how much is not enough..when i lived in that frozen country up North I rode mainly Husqvarna and for 2 seasons KTM, LOTS of angle.. maybe a bit more than 90*.. For a few of my first prodessional events I road West German Maico..They had MUCH less turning angle..
Never even thought about it on track..Only time it made a difference was in the parking area when I putter along, see my car, turn and pull up to the NEXT guys trailer...
Ooops.

I am curious why you ask, tell us what you are plotting...

Straight up question, are you John VanLandingham from that Easier Said than Done film? His voice was just really, really distinctive, and I get the same sense from you, especially how you play with words. I only ask so I can put a face on the comments here.

[racerx1979]

The famous JVL who was kicked out of the US rally forum?

[TyPat107]

Straight up question, are you John VanLandingham from that Easier Said than Done film? His voice was just really, really distinctive, and I get the same sense from you, especially how you play with words. I only ask so I can put a face on the comments here.

That's him. The one and only.

[Antony Warmbold]

Hi All - it's nice to be back here after a few years! After this long break from posting I decided to go modern and do videos.. So here we go this thread is revived to present a first attempt at stepping into the world of video blogging.
I hope you'll find this first subject interesting.

Also - if anyone wants to hold a live video chat on zoom to discuss WRC (to be then posted on my channel), do let me know !

Please remember to subscribe and like if you enjoy the video.

Cheers

https://youtu.be/M0eiSF8HXfk

[Rallyper]

Thanks Antony. Very analytic. Can´t you add one more parameter on that difference between testing and reality on rallies in the winter? The fading of tires. When studs aren´t doing the job because of the warm up. Especially at the end of long stages. (like Ogier...)

[EstWRC]

welcome back!

cant wait to see more of these thanks!

[Mirek]

Hi Antony, thank you for the video. I have a question for which you might not have an answer but let's try :)

Do you know why there was no serious attempt to replace ALS with electric-assisted turbo? It's not like electric-assisted turbo woud be some sort of expensive space technology and therefore for me it's rather strange that it never got in rally cars especially in the current social environment.

Thank you for any sort of answer.

[Antony Warmbold]

Yes, you could also consider stud issues. That can depend on various factors, another interesting subject.

[Antony Warmbold]

Hi Antony, thank you for the video. I have a question for which you might not have an answer but let's try :)

Do you know why there was no serious attempt to replace ALS with electric-assisted turbo? It's not like electric-assisted turbo woud be some sort of expensive space technology and therefore for me it's rather strange that it never got in rally cars especially in the current social environment.

Thank you for any sort of answer.

hi Mirek! no idea about that..
How are you?

[scn]

Thank you, very good video. I also found it very helpful for my own rally car.
It would be nice, in another video, to have info about the whole sequence of testing on a technical level.

[Antony Warmbold]

Thank you, very good video. I also found it very helpful for my own rally car.
It would be nice, in another video, to have info about the whole sequence of testing on a technical level.

Hey there - would love to know more about you and your car! happy this is helpful :)

[Antony Warmbold]

Hi All - I hope you will enjoy this one. Here I try to discuss driving on snow and ice in a WRC car from the driver's perspective. Let me know what you think please, all kinds of feedback are helpful :) and please remember to subscribe if you enjoy it.
Wish you all a great week.

https://youtu.be/vWM_8Fth76k

[Jarek Z]

Hello Antony, when are you back behind the wheel? :)

[AnttiL]

I would like to hear about how the setups of the cars can be changed, and how they affect the handling. Like if the car needs to get turned in quicker, more oversteer, less oversteer etc. :)

[Antony Warmbold]

Hello Antony, when are you back behind the wheel? :)

I get my adrenaline kick from motorcycles nowadays but who knows !

[Antony Warmbold]

I would like to hear about how the setups of the cars can be changed, and how they affect the handling. Like if the car needs to get turned in quicker, more oversteer, less oversteer etc. :)

I am getting various requests and will try to include these topics in a video soon. Thanks for the request Antti.

[EstWRC]

Thanks again for posting the video.

I would like to know what Antti said too and also the differences between the cars in your eyes. Where one seems to be better than the other and etc if possible.

And maybe how to do the drivers can save the tyres and maybe also to explain the different driving styles between some drivers.

Thanks and waiting for the next episode.

[Antony Warmbold]

Thanks again for posting the video.

I would like to know what Antti said too and also the differences between the cars in your eyes. Where one seems to be better than the other and etc if possible.

And maybe how to do the drivers can save the tyres and maybe also to explain the different driving styles between some drivers.

Thanks and waiting for the next episode.

You're welcome. Your request is noted, it's a lot of interesting material there!

[Antony Warmbold]

Hi friends, here is my full translation of Daniel Elena's rant + my reaction : https://youtu.be/b7MIpVy2LM4
Enjoy your weekend !

[Rally Hokkaido]

Hi Antony, thanks for this and any future analyses you provide us. It is a rare opportunity for us to have a former competitor from WRC's top level provide frank and unbiased information on what goes on there. Of course, few people will ever know 100% about what caused the situation, however I agree with your opinion of Daniel Elena. In particular, I don't believe lack of motivation was a valid reason for his sacking from the team.

[EstWRC]

i dont believe it too, Daniel is really pissed off there.


and i looked pics from 2005, indeed only driver names on the cars.

[the sniper]

I wish Daniel had known about and thrown in something about David Richards letting Rally GB and the BRC fail on his watch too, maybe a follow up video..? :D

Thanks for the broken down translation Antony, very colourful!

[TypeR]

Thank You for the video and translation! Already thought of taking French course :D

but obviously Elena isn't just making stuff up and being so straightforward..

I just wonder, how Loeb was talked into such decision..

[Antony Warmbold]

Happy that you are happy !
Will try to make a new video soon :)
Enjoy your week Everyone.

[Antony Warmbold]

Hello Friends,

A new video is up! This time we're looking at a classic Catalunya tarmac stage and it's a reaction/insight video with lots of my own commentary as I have driven this stage in the past.

As you know talking about my personal rally experience is a hobby for me and it's a pleasure to share/discuss stuff with you guys. But Youtube is very restrictive when using official content even when the goal is to add extra value with lots of commentary and reactions/insight etc. The thing is that using pre-existing footage is key for me to be able to create the content the way I wish to.

Therefore I am forced to move the channel to a Private Facebook Group, it's the best solution I have for the time being.

The Group is dedicated to discussions about driving and co-driving; about specific drivers and co-drivers; about events and their characteristics; technical talk about cars is welcome, stages and all things Rally in general. All photos and videos are welcome as long as there is a small story behind them.

All fans, drivers, co-drivers, officials, technicians, etc. are welcome to contribute to it's content and all rally related questions are welcome!

It's here : https://www.facebook.com/groups/rallybehindthestages

Wishing you all a great week.