Track Limits

[christophulus]

Something the BBC raised on the post race forum was the fact that drivers are still not being punished for going off track on the outside.

At turn 4 Buemi and Vettel both went way over the lines with all four wheels while overtaking, but escaped punishment. They were probably marginally ahead anyway, but it does seem to be a bit of a blind spot for the stewards - they didn't even investigate the incidents.

They were (rightly) quick to penalise Button for cutting the corner and passing Massa, but I hope that they're going to be equally strict if drivers use too much "run off" while passing? They even clarified the rules before the start of the year to state that at least one wheel must be "on track" at all times!

[SGWilko]

Something the BBC raised on the post race forum was the fact that drivers are still not being punished for going off track on the outside.

At turn 4 Buemi and Vettel both went way over the lines with all four wheels while overtaking, but escaped punishment. They were probably marginally ahead anyway, but it does seem to be a bit of a blind spot for the stewards - they didn't even investigate the incidents.

They were (rightly) quick to penalise Button for cutting the corner and passing Massa, but I hope that they're going to be equally strict if drivers use too much "run off" while passing? They even clarified the rules before the start of the year to state that at least one wheel must be "on track" at all times!

Tsk - two more cheats for the list?

[Sonic]

The way I see it is this. If you shorten the track, you get punished, no argument. But running wide and lengthening the track is its own punishment IMO. Turn 4 is a good example. Not only has the driver got a longer distance to travel, they also have a tighter angle of attack for the quick turn 5. If they manage to stick a pass whilst doing that, kudos to them.

[SGWilko]

The way I see it is this. If you shorten the track, you get punished, no argument. But running wide and lengthening the track is its own punishment IMO. Turn 4 is a good example. Not only has the driver got a longer distance to travel, they also have a tighter angle of attack for the quick turn 5. If they manage to stick a pass whilst doing that, kudos to them.

That seems fairly sound logic to me. Hadn't actually thought about it like that, but now I have it makes a lot of sense.

[Sleeper]

That seems fairly sound logic to me. Hadn't actually thought about it like that, but now I have it makes a lot of sense.
Except that it makes the turn more shallow and so allows for a much greater apex and exit speed, thereby giving an advantage over the car that is on track.

[ArrowsFA1]

They were (rightly) quick to penalise Button for cutting the corner and passing Massa, but I hope that they're going to be equally strict if drivers use too much "run off" while passing? They even clarified the rules before the start of the year to state that at least one wheel must be "on track" at all times!
It's a good point. The rule seems clear and yet it was not applied in all instances on Sunday.

Neither Buemi or Vettel were forced to take the line they did, they took the option of maintaining their speed because they had the option of running wide and making a pass. Without that area of run off being available they could not have made the pass, and that area is not between the lines that designate the track according to the rule.

[Mark]

I guess the area of runoff is slightly different to Button going down the escape road which was physically seperated from the track itself?
Drivers going outside of the boundard of the track is nothing new, they used to do it as a matter of course at La Source.

[MrJan]

I guess the area of runoff is slightly different to Button going down the escape road which was physically seperated from the track itself?
Drivers going outside of the boundard of the track is nothing new, they used to do it as a matter of course at La Source.

Shirley the track limits are the track limits? I can understand that they don't want to penalise just for running wide on an overtake, but if that's the case they shouldn't create a rule that explicitly forbids it. I'm all for the type of move that Buemi pulled off, and against the one that Button tried, but they need to tighten the wording to get rid of the accusations of cheating.

[Mark]

That's always the problem with having to put things down in exact rules. We pretty much agree that the Buemi move was ok but the Button move was not, but how to you write that into a regualtion?!

Again it's not a new issue, remember Senna was disqualified from a race win for cutting a chicane after a coming together with Prost. But for a long time the rule has been that you can run wide as long as you don't take an advantage from it, that could be in terms of time, or gaining or failing to lose a position.

[ArrowsFA1]

...for a long time the rule has been that you can run wide as long as you don't take an advantage from it, that could be in terms of time, or gaining or failing to lose a position.
But can't it be argued that in all three instances at the weekend an advantage was gained. In Button's case he was penalised so case closed, but both Buemi and Vettel "gained an advantage" by going off track simply because they made a pass that would not have been possible at that point on the circuit otherwise.

[MrJan]

But can't it be argued that in all three instances at the weekend an advantage was gained. In Button's case he was penalised so case closed, but both Buemi and Vettel "gained an advantage" by going off track simply because they made a pass that would not have been possible at that point on the circuit otherwise.

zactly! If Melbourne was a street circuit a la Monaco, then there'd have been a barrier preventing that pass, surely that's the definition of what a track limit should be. It's not a simple thing to create a rule that people generally agree is right (i.e that we mostly don't mind running wide to pass), but the FIA and F1 have so much money in this sport that I'm sure they can find some out shot legal person to figure it all out. The truth of course is that they want rules to be ambiguous as it means that their race stewards get to apply rules as would be wanted by the powers that be.

[Bezza]

The way I see it is this. If you shorten the track, you get punished, no argument. But running wide and lengthening the track is its own punishment IMO. Turn 4 is a good example. Not only has the driver got a longer distance to travel, they also have a tighter angle of attack for the quick turn 5. If they manage to stick a pass whilst doing that, kudos to them.

However, the next corner is a right hander, and therefore an advantage has been gained.

There should be no tarmac there, just kerb, grass and gravel. If you go over the kerb you may be OK but touch the grass and it won't work. I think that would have made it fair.

[Sonic]

Except that it makes the turn more shallow and so allows for a much greater apex and exit speed, thereby giving an advantage over the car that is on track.

If it were faster that way the boys would do it every lap.

[ArrowsFA1]

It's interesting that, in connection with the Button/Massa incident, Stefano Domenicali says that:
"The new rules are stronger. It is not just the International Sporting Code now; it is in the sporting regulations that you have to respect the line of the track."
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/90312