The NGTC Thread

[Alfa Fan]

As this is going to be one of the ongoing stories of 2011 I thought it would be a good idea to start a separate thread for it.

So far we've seen the two Toyota's of Tony Hughes and Frank Wrathall, with Tony having done a shakedown at Silverstone and Frank's car ready minus a gearbox (will be running at Brands on Tuesday).

Now I'm not a huge fan of the look of the Toyota, its much nicer in NGTC trim than the road car, but still not great. The A4 on the other hand is a great looking road car, and judging by the pictures Rob Austin has just put up on Facebook, it's going to look absolutely stunning!

I'm interested to see how these cars get on this year, still no official weight has been set for them as far as I'm aware, although rumours are it's going to be quite high to keep them in check with the S2000 cars.

New Pics of A4

http://img863.imageshack.us/img863/6509/18915310150181016176321.jpg
http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/6895/20498010150181980071321.jpg (http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/6895/20498010150181980071321.jpg)

[Allyc85]

Im liking the look of that, very mean without the millions of aero add ons like a DTM A4!

[VkmSpouge]

The Audi looks great already, I hope the livery they are planning will do it justice.

[Alfa Fan]

Speedworks are planning to give their Avensis its first proper test tomorrow at Oulton Park whilst Rob Austin Racing have scheduled the shakedown of their Audi for Thursday at Rockingham.

[BDunnell]

And the second Audi will not be out at Brands.

[AndySpeed]

I'm a little concerned at how the pace of these cars will fare against the S2000 chassis at the start of the season. I'm not even sure they'll be within half a second of the prototype.

[BDunnell]

I'm a little concerned at how the pace of these cars will fare against the S2000 chassis at the start of the season. I'm not even sure they'll be within half a second of the prototype.

I, too, think it will be a two-class (three-class if you count the existing cars like the Vectras and Civics running the NGTC engines) championship to begin with, but let's see.

[Alfa Fan]

Speedworks Avensis was looking good at Oulton today. Dunno what a decent BTCC time round the full circuit should be but the Toyota was lapping in the low 2 minute 3-4s

[BTCC2]

Speedworks Avensis was looking good at Oulton today. Dunno what a decent BTCC time round the full circuit should be but the Toyota was lapping in the low 2 minute 3-4s

Much quicker than that!

[BDunnell]

Much quicker than that!

As in the time was actually much quicker than that, or a good time should be much quicker than that?

[AndySpeed]

A British F3 car car can easily lap Oulton International in less than 1 minute 27 seconds. I don't think your everyday BTCC car is more than half a minute slower!

That said, I did notice that the Speedworks car has two seats in it at the moment. That'll add a bit of unnecessary weight.

[Alfa Fan]

But the BTCC are slower than that round the 1/2 a mile shorter Island circuit!

[Iain]

Anyone else having flashbacks to 2001 when the new Alfas and Lexus were hastily put together and didn't really work at first?

[BDunnell]

Anyone else having flashbacks to 2001 when the new Alfas and Lexus were hastily put together and didn't really work at first?

I thought of this when Pinkney was announced as a driver for the Audi... Not happy with that 147, was he?

[VkmSpouge]

Anyone else having flashbacks to 2001 when the new Alfas and Lexus were hastily put together and didn't really work at first?

I didn't want to mention it but...

[MattL]

Well remembered! Here's David Pinkney giving a new car, built to new regulations, its first run in free practice at the first meeting of the season at Brands Hatch...10 years ago!

http://www.btccpages.com/gallery/d/68889-3/dp1.jpg

[Iain]

Ten years! That is a scary thought. Just looked at the results from then, a mere 8.5 seconds off the pace of the 888 Astras.

[Alfa Fan]

However it did go on to score a podium! I don't think the Audi will be as problematic as the Alfa, in fact I expect it will fair similarly to the Toyotas.

[Donney]

I guess they'll be off the pace at first and I expect them to suffer some teething problems in the first few rounds...

I hope they'll solve them and become challengers for wins by the second half of the season.

And yes so far the Audi looks great!!!!

[BDunnell]

I guess they'll be off the pace at first and I expect them to suffer some teething problems in the first few rounds...

I hope they'll solve them and become challengers for wins by the second half of the season.

Without TOCA opting to give the all-NGTC cars some special dispensation to even out their performance, I'm afraid I can't see them being that far up there based on what we've seen so far.

[m0rk]

The question is... will they be around the back of the grid for which of the following reasons?

No setup time to get the best performance
Poorly engineered, and just won't be as quick regardless of setup time
Privateer drivers abilty
Privateer budget constraints

I'm all for the idea, but if the cars aren't competitive there will be all sorts of reasons given until they're allowed to turn the power up to counteract all of the above.

[Allyc85]

Not long till we find out how fast these new machines are, Wrathal's Avensis looks sooo good!

http://www.touringcartimes.com/news/btcc11032601.jpg

http://www.touringcartimes.com/article.php?id=5909

[Alfa Fan]

Well its not looking too good is it? GPR Motorsport don't seem to have done a very good job...

[BDunnell]

With all due respect to the drivers, teams and GPR, being over three seconds off the pace round the Indy circuit is a big, big gap. How does this compare to Thompson's times in the Avensis at the Brands Indy meeting last year?

[Allyc85]

Early days yet, but it is pretty disappointing that they couldnt get the cars turned out in time to give the teams some proper running with the cars.

What are the rules for testing and shake downs these days?

[Alfa Fan]

With all due respect to the drivers, teams and GPR, being over three seconds off the pace round the Indy circuit is a big, big gap. How does this compare to Thompson's times in the Avensis at the Brands Indy meeting last year?

There's a suggestion that the time published wasn't accurate!

[m0rk]

There's a suggestion that the time published wasn't accurate!

Shock horror!

I seem to remember stop watch times didn't correlate at the time. But there is no information on the weight or power of the car that ran then...

Or today's drivers are just 'that' bad

[Alfa Fan]

I don't think you can say that about Frank. He's G50 champion after all.

[Alfa Fan]

2762

[Alfa Fan]

Interesting post by someone going by the name "fabricator" over at the btcc.net forums. Seems to confirm suspicions that GPR are an utter shambles. I'm worried that on the car side its such a mess that TOCA might be better off getting a new outfit in to either sort out the existing cars or build up some new ones. It's been terrible PR for the new regs so far.

[christophulus]

What do you/does he mean by a shambles?

I'm hoping once one of the established teams starts looking at building an NGTC we'll see their actual potential. Today was a bit disappointing but they can only improve, right?

[Alfa Fan]

Problems with equipment, facilities etc. From the outside it does all seem to have been very amateurish. Its such a shame Toca couldn't get someone like Prodrive to carry out the NGTC project. GPR don't have much of a track record with car builds like this, but I guarantee that had it been Prodrive doing the builds the cars would have all been sorted before Media Day.

The Welch Motorsport Proton should be interesting. That car is not being built by GPR so could demonstrate if it is a GPR-specific problem.

[Alfa Fan]

To put things in perspective for, a comparison that will be of use to some of us who remember the 2001 season. I bet most people think back to that season and remember JSM/ABG being horribly off the pace with the Alfa & Lexus. Well discounting the first meeting where neither car was properly ready (!!) The cars were then only 3 seconds a lap off the pace at the fastest and most demanding track on the calender, Thruxton.

Come the final round on Brands Indy the Alfa was less than a second off the pace, and at the previous round on the long GP circuit at Donington, every car had qualified within 2 seconds on the 1:45 lap!

So maybe with that in mind we should give them the benefit of the doubt for the first round, but if they are still struggling come Thruxton/Oulton then there's a serious problem.

(Completely off-topic, but looking back at the 2001 results it reminded me that the year was actually a lot more competitive than I remember, even if it required an extra +30KG on the Astra)

[BDunnell]

To put things in perspective for, a comparison that will be of use to some of us who remember the 2001 season. I bet most people think back to that season and remember JSM/ABG being horribly off the pace with the Alfa & Lexus. Well discounting the first meeting where neither car was properly ready (!!) The cars were then only 3 seconds a lap off the pace at the fastest and most demanding track on the calender, Thruxton.

Come the final round on Brands Indy the Alfa was less than a second off the pace, and at the previous round on the long GP circuit at Donington, every car had qualified within 2 seconds on the 1:45 lap!

So maybe with that in mind we should give them the benefit of the doubt for the first round, but if they are still struggling come Thruxton/Oulton then there's a serious problem.

(Completely off-topic, but looking back at the 2001 results it reminded me that the year was actually a lot more competitive than I remember, even if it required an extra +30KG on the Astra)

And don't forget that the Lexus, in Kurt Luby's hands, ran second at only its second meeting, at Oulton (it having failed to race at Brands). The ABG/TMSR team that ran it did seem to be rather shambolic, but their achievement in building what gradually turned into a pretty decent car was actually quite impressive. And the JSM Alfas seemed to come on leaps and bounds after Tim Harvey started racing one of the cars.

It will be interesting to see the NGTC Audi's performance when it hits the track. If it's a long way off even the Golf, using the same engine, then there is a problem that couldn't just be put down to Onslow-Cole being a far superior driver to Pinkney.

[Alfa Fan]

And the Alfa's only real problem was engines. A mid season switch sorted out reliability somewhat. 7 finishes out of 28 with the first engine (7 meetings) 12 out of 20 with the second engine (5 meetings). It was the engine switch rather than Harvey that really brought it on. Once Pinkney quit, Harvey/Ferrier was a pretty handy driver line-up!

Whereas here engines can't be blamed for the Speedworks Avensis, its the same engine as in the Eurotech / 888 cars

[BDunnell]

And the Alfa's only real problem was engines. A mid season switch sorted out reliability somewhat. 7 finishes out of 28 with the first engine (7 meetings) 12 out of 20 with the second engine (5 meetings). It was the engine switch rather than Harvey that really brought it on.

Oh yes, I'd forgotten that.

[Iain]

It will be interesting to see the NGTC Audi's performance when it hits the track. If it's a long way off even the Golf, using the same engine, then there is a problem that couldn't just be put down to Onslow-Cole being a far superior driver to Pinkney.

It's the same basic engine, but a different tuner to the Golf and the Leon, which could be another variable in the mix. I'm also curious to see how it gets on being rear-wheel drive, will it suffer a power loss by having to send the power to the back of the car?

[speedy king]

It's the same basic engine, but a different tuner to the Golf and the Leon, which could be another variable in the mix. I'm also curious to see how it gets on being rear-wheel drive, will it suffer a power loss by having to send the power to the back of the car?

And no doubt those with the biggest cheque book gets the 1,000th of a second....

Totally different spectacle...but karting levels for example, Rotax Max, where a Mr Jack Hawksworth (Formula Renault today) came out of from last year, £1000 will get you an average ok engine rebuild where all the parts are replaced as they should........a £6,000 rebuild on the same 'one make' sealed engine with replace the same parts with the same homologated parts but the engine will be untouchable for 3-4 race weekends..... apart from of course those other £2,000 'stock' engines which are now worth £6-8,000...

And here in touring car terms we have the difference between the front and the back teams on just a much larger scale... ? Thats what i fear..

[BDunnell]

And here in touring car terms we have the difference between the front and the back teams on just a much larger scale... ? Thats what i fear..

Well, if the whole BTCC grid was made up of NGTC cars, it would be no different to normal — some would be at the front, some would be at the back. The fact of the only NGTC cars all being not just at the back, but some way behind on the shortest circuit on the calendar and suffering numerous problems makes the whole concept look much worse than it is.

[tisme]

Its such a shame Toca couldn't get someone like Prodrive to carry out the NGTC project.


Just to remind you of that saying.. 'You Pay Peanuts, You Get ......

[Eurotech]

Had anyone actually heard of GPR before this? I hadn't... It'll be good to see how the Thorney Insignias end up because these are being built up by Thorney Motorsport rather than GPR...

GPR = Good Project Ruined?

[Rollo]

I know that the following is from another thread and taken out of context but:


I thought that 'equivalency formula' was when you get two cars that are built to different regulations competing? Like with the BTC versus Super2000 versus NGTC ?

It seems to me that the NGTC regulations are pretty well described as something like a Super 2000 cars but with the engines from a WRC Car of 1997–2010.

If this is the case, does that mean that you could pretty well much take an ex-WRC car and have it conform to the NGTC regs with almost minimal effort? Admittedly the cars would probably be hideously uncompetitive because they were originally built for dirt work, but is it a possible avenue for the old cars to get a new lease on life?

[Allyc85]

NGTC teams to be allowed more testing.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/90837

[BDunnell]

Wrathall's Avensis looks to be pretty quick now, when it runs reliably — which still seems to be quite a big 'when'. No surprise, as it's a good team and he's a very fine driver, but good to see nonetheless.

[AndySpeed]

Wrathall's Avensis looks to be pretty quick now, when it runs reliably — which still seems to be quite a big 'when'. No surprise, as it's a good team and he's a very fine driver, but good to see nonetheless.

Indeed - he managed a 1:12.073 in the second race, after completing just 7 laps. The fastest laps were set on lap 9, so feasibly there could have been a little more to come from him and the tyres. For comparison Tony Gilham, who completed the race, managed a best lap of 1:11.871. Seems like given a little more time with the car Wrathall could catch up to some of the established S2000 teams. :up:

[Iain]

I was impressed by Wrathall's pace in race three, even if he was up against a hamstrung Civic and Cruze who were a lap ahead of him.

[Allyc85]

Yea same here. I expected him to drop back quite suddenly but his pace was good and he ddint really get in anyones way when being lapped.

[Eurotech]

I liked the Audi, looked and sounded great... Well done to Rob Austin for finally managing to not only get more than 1 lap out of it but a whole race distance :)

[Alfa Fan]

Time to bump this up again. The cars are still looking fragile, but definitely showing a lot more pace. Rob certainly seems to have really improved the Audi, I'm looking forward to seeing how that team get on with two cars in the second half of the season.

If Dynojet can get some decent reliability out of the Avensis it should make its way towards the front too.

[rwdvectra]

One question about the Audi. How is it allowed to run in rwd form. I thought that they could only run in the drive it was sold and audi don't make rwd drive cars or is converting a 4 wheel drive car to rwd by taking out the driveshafts allowed?

[Robinho]

yes to your second part - the regs allow for 2wd i believe, and as the audi comes in 4wd you are allowed to run it in either front or rear drive configuration, and they considered the package would be best as a rear driver - as i understand the situation anyway

[Allyc85]

Time to bump this up again. The cars are still looking fragile, but definitely showing a lot more pace. Rob certainly seems to have really improved the Audi, I'm looking forward to seeing how that team get on with two cars in the second half of the season.

If Dynojet can get some decent reliability out of the Avensis it should make its way towards the front too.

Agreed with that, I was pretty disapointed to see Rob spinning out of a good position, though im guessing he got a bit of help?

[c8nay]

One question about the Audi. How is it allowed to run in rwd form. I thought that they could only run in the drive it was sold and audi don't make rwd drive cars or is converting a 4 wheel drive car to rwd by taking out the driveshafts allowed?

The Audi is allowed to run in rwd because it's engine layout doesn't fit toca's fwd spec gearbox only the rwd spec version and toca didn't want to spend money on a version just for them when they are trying to keep costs down.


*I'm sure someone can give a more technical answer with the words 'transverse' and 'Longitudinal' in it, but I can't remember which way round it is.

[Alfa Fan]

So approaching the half way stage and at least the Audi is starting to look pretty good now. I think it could well be helped by the fact that GPR aren't dealing with it anymore! Should see two competitive A4s for the second half of the season. I hope Rob stays in one of them and is joined by someone quick (but I fear it will be the OAP).

[BDunnell]

So approaching the half way stage and at least the Audi is starting to look pretty good now. I think it could well be helped by the fact that GPR aren't dealing with it anymore! Should see two competitive A4s for the second half of the season. I hope Rob stays in one of them and is joined by someone quick (but I fear it will be the OAP).

What an improvement RAR has made to that car since the start of the season. I hope Austin gets a points finish tomorrow — he deserves it.

[VkmSpouge]

No points finishes but both Rob Austin and Frank Wrathall are getting closer and closer. They have a few weeks to make further improvements to the Audi and Toyota now. Hopefully when the second half of the season starts they'll have more pace.
Also when the second half of the season starts we'll hopefully have a Proton Gen-2 as well.

[Alfa Fan]

Should have the second A4 out for the second half of the season too. Will be interesting to see whose driving them. I believe they still have another driver lined-up to join them at some point and David Pinkney is still scheduled to drive the car when it's competitive (which based on Croft, it now is).

[Andrew Webster]

Felt sorry for Frank Wrathall, how good does that Toyota sound! Hope Rob Austin and Dynojet sort the reliability issues out and get some top 10 finishes.

[Allyc85]

It was great to see both cars looking so much more competitive this weekend, its just such a shame they dont seem to get any luck at the moment!

[AndySpeed]

Rob Austin to win a race this year?

Rob Austin: (http://www.touring-cars.net/2011/07/rob-austin-were-very-confident)

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Living 5 minutes from DynoJet, I'd prefer Frank Wrathall to be the first NGTC car to win!

(Living equal distance between Tom Boardman and Wrathall is a sign that I should have a touring car drive ;) )

[AndySpeed]

If that was the case then I think I'd have one too!

[Alfa Fan]

BTCC :: Dunlop MSA British Touring Car Championship (http://btcc.net/html/generalnews_detail.php?id=2536)

Not even a mother could love that one...

[Allyc85]

I dont think its that bad! We need more pics though!

[VkmSpouge]

I think that Proton Gen-2 looks completely ridiculous and I like it! :D

[Allyc85]

Slightly different angle!

Welch Motorsport Proton Gen-2 breaks cover ahead of BTCC debut at Snetterton - BTCC news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/93645)

[Robinho]

i've always had a bit of a guilty pleasure crush on the Gen 2 road car, i've always thought it looked good, and the Tourer I like the look of too. Good luck to them, I had doubts we'd ever see it, but as usual the teams who don't make a lot of noise about their efforts are usually the ones who come up with the goods

[VkmSpouge]

The NGTC-spec entries finally scored their first points and are looking genuinely competitive :) Frank Wrathall's Toyota looked very quick today, could well have got a podium if it was not for that over heating problem. Rob Austin picked up points and a fastest lap.
However all these cars still seem a bit fragile, only Daniel Welch finished all three races today (great achievement in a car doing it's first serious running this weekend).

[Jaume_LeVolant]

But look at the time difference between Rob Austin's fastest lap and the other fastest laps... If I'm not wrong, Rob Austin made a 1:59.3 and Neal, Jackson, Plato etc... made a regular time of 1:59.8, 1:59.9 by lap... So much time difference, more than 1/2 second, it's impressive!

[I am evil Homer]

I think that Proton Gen-2 looks completely ridiculous and I like it! :D

Yes it's amusing but as a BTCC car it looks dumb - the base car is clearly too narrow leading to arhces that put the DTM to shame. If that's what the BTCC isgoing to look like I have no interest.

[VkmSpouge]

Probably best to take a look at the other two NGTC cars first before hand who have entirely sensible wheel arches (at least compared the to ridiculous Proton).

[Eurotech]

Dan admitted afterwards that they'd made a slight cock up on the wheel arches... I'm sure they'll be fixed sooner or later

[Allyc85]

He did mention that they had some cooling issues so maybe new arches and some cooling vents will be added?

Anyways just seen that Honda will be building a NGTC Civic, based on the new model coming out soon!

Honda will build an NGTC Civic for the 2012 BTCC - BTCC news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/94160)

[Eurotech]

I wonder what RML are planning for next year... surely they wouldn't stay with full S2000 spec if they're planning on entering at all next year...

[RMLCruzeing82]

I wonder what RML are planning for next year... surely they wouldn't stay with full S2000 spec if they're planning on entering at all next year...

Id be annoyed if they did stay with S2000 spec cars.

[Captain VXR]

Looks like we will have a first NGTC podium

[Captain VXR]

Congratulations Wrathall :D

[Allyc85]

Brilliant drive by Wrathall :D

It must have been so tempting to send one up the inside of Neal!

[Eurotech]

The Audi is still definitely my favourite NGTC car, best looking and driven with STYLEEEEEE :)

[Allyc85]

The 2012 Avensis has been revealed, it looks great in white!

http://cdn.images.autosport.com/editorial/1318679830.jpg

2012 NGTC Toyota Avensis revealed at Silverstone - BTCC news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/95416)

[BDunnell]

And in the Silverstone practice sessions, again Wrathall's Avensis is somewhere just off the end of the top 10, and the Audis are near the back. Could it be that the Audi's true pace (such as we know any car's true pace in the BTCC nowadays, what with all the equalisation) isn't as quick as it looked before the boost on the NGTC cars was turned down?

[Drumracer]

The 2012 Avensis has been revealed, it looks great in white!

http://cdn.images.autosport.com/editorial/1318679830.jpg


Find it odd that Toyota have had their next model produced in NGTC form without confirming a manufacturer entry...maybe it's just me...

[Allyc85]

How do you know this?

And its not a manufacturer effort anyway, so why would they need permission and why would Toyota not want their car on the grid when they dont need to spend any money?

[VkmSpouge]

It looks a good car. Hopefully GPR won't have the same problems in getting cars ready for the start of next season as they did this year.