MotoGP: Round 1 - Qatar [Archive]

CaptainRaiden

18th March 2011, 10:11

Amazing that there hasn't been a thread about this yet. FP1 for MotoGP done, and both Moto2 and 125 cc FP1 and FP2 done, and looks very interesting so far:

MotoGP FP1

1 27 Casey STONER AUS Repsol Honda Team Honda 323.5 1'55.752
2 26 Dani PEDROSA SPA Repsol Honda Team Honda 320.4 1'56.362 0.610 / 0.610
3 8 Hector BARBERA SPA Mapfre Aspar Team MotoGP Ducati 326.6 1'56.421 0.669 / 0.059
4 58 Marco SIMONCELLI ITA San Carlo Honda Gresini Honda 320.2 1'56.441 0.689 / 0.020
5 46 Valentino ROSSI ITA Ducati Team Ducati 319.8 1'56.479 0.727 / 0.038
6 11 Ben SPIES USA Yamaha Factory Racing Yamaha 317.9 1'56.493 0.741 / 0.014
7 1 Jorge LORENZO SPA Yamaha Factory Racing Yamaha 316.7 1'56.586 0.834 / 0.093
8 4 Andrea DOVIZIOSO ITA Repsol Honda Team Honda 321.3 1'56.592 0.840 / 0.006
9 14 Randy DE PUNIET FRA Pramac Racing Team Ducati 316.4 1'56.790 1.038 / 0.198
10 5 Colin EDWARDS USA Monster Yamaha Tech 3 Yamaha 321.7 1'56.879 1.127 / 0.089
11 69 Nicky HAYDEN USA Ducati Team Ducati 321.6 1'56.910 1.158 / 0.031
12 7 Hiroshi AOYAMA JPN San Carlo Honda Gresini Honda 320.8 1'56.987 1.235 / 0.077
13 65 Loris CAPIROSSI ITA Pramac Racing Team Ducati 317.3 1'57.366 1.614 / 0.379
14 35 Cal CRUTCHLOW GBR Monster Yamaha Tech 3 Yamaha 317.2 1'57.429 1.677 / 0.063
15 17 Karel ABRAHAM CZE Cardion AB Motoracing Ducati 322.5 1'57.821 2.069 / 0.392
16 19 Alvaro BAUTISTA SPA Rizla Suzuki MotoGP Suzuki 316.7 1'58.528 2.776 / 0.707
17 24 Toni ELIAS SPA LCR Honda MotoGP Honda 317.9 1'59.087 3.335 / 0.559

Hector Barbera springing a surprise there, also Rossi the highest he has been on the Ducati. A bit more setup work and maybe he could be right up there. If anybody can, he can.

Moto2 FP2

1 72 Yuki TAKAHASHI JPN Gresini Racing Moto2 Moriwaki 271.9 2'01.695
2 45 Scott REDDING GBR Marc VDS Racing Team Suter 263.7 2'01.748 0.053 / 0.053
3 65 Stefan BRADL GER Viessmann Kiefer Racing Kalex 277.0 2'01.800 0.105 / 0.052
4 29 Andrea IANNONE ITA Speed Master Suter 268.7 2'01.983 0.288 / 0.183
5 12 Thomas LUTHI SWI Interwetten Paddock Moto2 Suter 270.9 2'02.143 0.448 / 0.160
6 93 Marc MARQUEZ SPA Team Catalunya Caixa Repsol Suter 270.0 2'02.348 0.653 / 0.205
7 51 Michele PIRRO ITA Gresini Racing Moto2 Moriwaki 270.1 2'02.498 0.803 / 0.150
8 40 Aleix ESPARGARO SPA Pons HP 40 Pons Kalex 269.1 2'02.577 0.882 / 0.079
9 60 Julian SIMON SPA Mapfre Aspar Team Moto2 Suter 267.5 2'02.620 0.925 / 0.043
10 71 Claudio CORTI ITA Italtrans Racing Team Suter 268.7 2'02.673 0.978 / 0.053
11 21 Javier FORES SPA Mapfre Aspar Team Moto2 Suter 267.7 2'02.923 1.228 / 0.250
12 34 Esteve RABAT SPA Blusens-STX FTR 271.7 2'02.951 1.256 / 0.028
13 15 Alex DE ANGELIS RSM JIR Moto2 Motobi 275.2 2'03.021 1.326 / 0.070
14 63 Mike DI MEGLIO FRA Tech 3 Racing Tech 3 271.6 2'03.105 1.410 / 0.084
15 88 Ricard CARDUS SPA QMMF Racing Team Moriwaki 265.7 2'03.185 1.490 / 0.080
16 38 Bradley SMITH GBR Tech 3 Racing Tech 3 270.6 2'03.197 1.502 / 0.012
17 16 Jules CLUZEL FRA Forward Racing Suter 268.2 2'03.231 1.536 / 0.034
18 36 Mika KALLIO FIN Marc VDS Racing Team Suter 270.8 2'03.336 1.641 / 0.105
19 76 Max NEUKIRCHNER GER MZ Racing Team MZ-RE Honda 267.8 2'03.404 1.709 / 0.068
20 4 Randy KRUMMENACHER SWI GP Team Switzerland Kiefer Racing Kalex 272.7 2'03.722 2.027 / 0.318
21 68 Yonny HERNANDEZ COL Blusens-STX FTR 265.9 2'03.741 2.046 / 0.019
22 14 Ratthapark WILAIROT THA Thai Honda Singha SAG FTR 271.7 2'03.837 2.142 / 0.096
23 35 Raffaele DE ROSA ITA G22 Racing Team Moriwaki 270.3 2'03.971 2.276 / 0.134
24 80 Axel PONS SPA Pons HP 40 Pons Kalex 271.4 2'04.055 2.360 / 0.084
25 25 Alex BALDOLINI ITA Forward Racing Suter 265.0 2'04.178 2.483 / 0.123
26 75 Mattia PASINI ITA Ioda Racing Project FTR 271.8 2'04.184 2.489 / 0.006
27 53 Valentin DEBISE FRA Speed Up FTR 272.2 2'04.213 2.518 / 0.029
28 54 Kenan SOFUOGLU TUR Technomag-CIP Suter 269.1 2'04.294 2.599 / 0.081
29 49 Kev COGHLAN GBR Aeroport de Castello FTR 270.3 2'04.654 2.959 / 0.360
30 44 Pol ESPARGARO SPA HP Tuenti Speed Up FTR 270.3 2'04.701 3.006 / 0.047
31 77 Dominique AEGERTER SWI Technomag-CIP Suter 268.5 2'04.923 3.228 / 0.222
32 19 Xavier SIMEON BEL Tech 3 Racing Tech 3 266.6 2'05.223 3.528 / 0.300
33 39 Robertino PIETRI VEN Italtrans Racing Team Suter 270.7 2'05.467 3.772 / 0.244
34 13 Anthony WEST AUS MZ Racing Team MZ-RE Honda 264.6 2'05.646 3.951 / 0.179
35 9 Kenny NOYES USA Avintia-STX FTR 270.9 2'05.845 4.150 / 0.199
36 96 Nasser Hasan AL MALKI QAT QMMF Racing Team Moriwaki 265.9 2'06.337 4.642 / 0.492
37 95 Mashel AL NAIMI QAT QMMF Racing Team Moriwaki 269.1 2'07.235 5.540 / 0.898
38 64 Santiago HERNANDEZ COL SAG Team FTR 264.4 2'08.602 6.907 / 1.367
3 Simone CORSI ITA Ioda Racing Project FTR 264.9 2'10.977 9.282 / 2.375

Usual suspects at the top. Seems like Marquez, Takahashi and Bradl would be very strong

125 cc FP2

1 18 Nicolas TEROL SPA Bankia Aspar Team Aprilia 224.5 2'07.418
2 11 Sandro CORTESE GER Intact-Racing Team Germany Aprilia 222.9 2'08.434 1.016 / 1.016
3 55 Hector FAUBEL SPA Bankia Aspar Team Aprilia 220.5 2'08.576 1.158 / 0.142
4 39 Luis SALOM SPA RW Racing GP Aprilia 224.3 2'08.877 1.459 / 0.301
5 94 Jonas FOLGER GER Red Bull Ajo MotorSport Aprilia 225.6 2'08.892 1.474 / 0.015
6 7 Efren VAZQUEZ SPA Avant-AirAsia-Ajo Derbi 220.3 2'09.243 1.825 / 0.351
7 5 Johann ZARCO FRA Avant-AirAsia-Ajo Derbi 217.7 2'09.351 1.933 / 0.108
8 52 Danny KENT GBR Red Bull Ajo MotorSport Aprilia 219.7 2'09.731 2.313 / 0.380
9 23 Alberto MONCAYO SPA Andalucia Banca Civica Aprilia 222.9 2'09.892 2.474 / 0.161
10 33 Sergio GADEA SPA Pev-Blusens-SMX-Paris Hilton Aprilia 219.4 2'09.927 2.509 / 0.035
11 44 Miguel OLIVEIRA POR Andalucia Banca Civica Aprilia 221.8 2'10.385 2.967 / 0.458
12 26 Adrian MARTIN SPA Bankia Aspar Team Aprilia 218.2 2'10.539 3.121 / 0.154
13 31 Niklas AJO FIN TT Motion Events Racing Aprilia 217.4 2'10.590 3.172 / 0.051
14 25 Maverick VIÑALES SPA Pev-Blusens-SMX-Paris Hilton Aprilia 222.7 2'10.637 3.219 / 0.047
15 76 Hiroki ONO JPN Caretta Technology Forward Team KTM 219.2 2'11.569 4.151 / 0.932
16 99 Danny WEBB GBR Mahindra Racing Mahindra 220.6 2'11.589 4.171 / 0.020
17 96 Louis ROSSI FRA Matteoni Racing Aprilia 215.6 2'11.682 4.264 / 0.093
18 3 Luigi MORCIANO ITA Team Italia FMI Aprilia 212.9 2'11.862 4.444 / 0.180
19 15 Simone GROTZKYJ ITA Phonica Racing Aprilia 214.7 2'12.307 4.889 / 0.445
20 53 Jasper IWEMA NED Ongetta-Abbink Metaal Aprilia 224.5 2'12.514 5.096 / 0.207
21 77 Marcel SCHROTTER GER Mahindra Racing Mahindra 217.0 2'12.721 5.303 / 0.207
22 84 Jakub KORNFEIL CZE Ongetta-Centro Seta Aprilia 214.5 2'13.040 5.622 / 0.319
23 63 Zulfahmi KHAIRUDDIN MAL Airasia-Sic-Ajo Derbi 217.1 2'13.055 5.637 / 0.015
24 30 Giulian PEDONE SWI Phonica Racing Aprilia 212.1 2'13.396 5.978 / 0.341
25 19 Alessandro TONUCCI ITA Team Italia FMI Aprilia 214.5 2'13.704 6.286 / 0.308
26 21 Harry STAFFORD GBR Ongetta-Centro Seta Aprilia 216.6 2'13.911 6.493 / 0.207
27 17 Taylor MACKENZIE GBR Phonica Racing Aprilia 210.2 2'13.943 6.525 / 0.032
28 36 Joan PERELLO SPA Matteoni Racing Aprilia 215.9 2'14.337 6.919 / 0.394
29 43 Francesco MAURIELLO ITA WTR-Ten10 Racing Aprilia 215.3 2'15.955 8.537 / 1.618
12 Daniel KARTHEININGER GER Caretta Technology Forward Team KTM 218.0 2'16.386 8.968 / 0.431
69 Sarath KUMAR IND WTR-Ten10 Racing Aprilia 211.4 2'22.776 15.358 / 6.390

This year's championship is Terol's to lose. I don't see anyway he won't win, unless Marquez or Espargaro comes back to 125s.

NinjaMaster

18th March 2011, 10:51

Amazing that there hasn't been a thread about this yet.

Good work X, we've been slack! Better late than never, eh?

Hector Barbera springing a surprise there, also Rossi the highest he has been on the Ducati. A bit more setup work and maybe he could be right up there. If anybody can, he can.

Even though he got a tow on his fast lap, I don't think anyone thought Barbera capable of placing that high during a practice session. Then he slipped back into character and baulked Hayedn on the next lap. :rolleyes:
It's the highest Rossi has been on the Duc though I will reserve judgement on any progress til after the next couple of sessions as he's looked to have improved a couple of times during the pre-season then slid down the order. I'm also still skeptical of the Ducati front end in the heat of battle. Still, it's the most positive we've heard from Ducati, at least on the yellow side.
Stoner has been monsterously impressive but I'm not sure he'll have it all his own way. Pedrosa and Spies are both very fast but Lorenzo is the main one I've got my eye on as he seems to be cutting very fast 'racing' laps and that Yamaha is still a very impressive motorcycle, regardless of Honda's testing dominance.

Usual suspects at the top. Seems like Marquez, Takahashi and Bradl would be very strong

This series is going to be just as ridiculously exciting as last year. Heading into turn one on Sunday with only a sighting lap and a warmup lap could be positively frightening though!

This year's championship is Terol's to lose. I don't see anyway he won't win, unless Marquez or Espargaro comes back to 125s.

100% agree. He looks far and away better than the rest of the field unless a Cortese or someone can improve two or three levels at once!

CaptainRaiden

18th March 2011, 11:17

Good work X, we've been slack! Better late than never, eh?

Yep. :p I think MotoGP needs more politics, scandals and controversial rules like F1 to wake people up. :D

Even though he got a tow on his fast lap, I don't think anyone thought Barbera capable of placing that high during a practice session. Then he slipped back into character and baulked Hayedn on the next lap. :rolleyes:
It's the highest Rossi has been on the Duc though I will reserve judgement on any progress til after the next couple of sessions as he's looked to have improved a couple of times during the pre-season then slid down the order. I'm also still skeptical of the Ducati front end in the heat of battle. Still, it's the most positive we've heard from Ducati, at least on the yellow side.
Stoner has been monsterously impressive but I'm not sure he'll have it all his own way. Pedrosa and Spies are both very fast but Lorenzo is the main one I've got my eye on as he seems to be cutting very fast 'racing' laps and that Yamaha is still a very impressive motorcycle, regardless of Honda's testing dominance.

Very interesting. I wish I could see the practice sessions or even qualifying for that matter, but for the amazing broadcasting monopoly in the country that I am in currently. Won't be able to watch the race either, because the rival cable provider got the exclusive rights to MotoGP for this year. :) Looks like I'll be forced to look for other options on the internet *cough* streaming and torrents *cough*. At least while I was in India, I had the surety to watch the race on not one, but two channels.

Anyway as Toby and Julian always said, and it's like you said above Ninja, Lorenzo always seems to be banging in the most consistently fast times throughout testing, practice and qualifying. This race is going to be interesting. Would love to see a five horse race with Stoner, Pedrosa, Spies, Lorenzo and Rossi fighting for the win, but this so far looks like Stoner should win comfortably, unless he sees that Rossi is behind him and closing the gap and loses the front on the next corner. :p

Allyc85

18th March 2011, 22:17

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/90018

Oh dear Suzuki, what are they going to do now?!

On another matter, wasnt Moto Gp going to be shown in HD this year?

themo

18th March 2011, 23:18

The only Suzuki rider on the MotoGP grid, Alvaro Bautista, has been ruled out of this weekend's opening round in Qatar after breaking his femur in Friday night's final free practice session.

Former Suzuki MotoGP star John Hopkins, who tested the GSV-R at Qatar last weekend, has previously been named as a reserve should such a scenario occur - but it looks unlikely that the American, due to race for Crescent Suzuki in BSB this year, can arrive for qualifying.

muscrae

19th March 2011, 00:12

It will obviously be a tough start for Kenan Sofuoğlu this weekend. He's just lost his father due to cancer, and he lacked the testing. Kenan was able to improve his lap time, the feeling of the bike is getting better, still some area where it's possible to improve with the set up and Kenan also can improve his riding style required by the moto2 standard closer to 250cc and 125cc machine behaviour something quite different to supersport. He's so eager for a blistering start to the season, remember this is the debut season for him. He was leading his debut race at Moto2 last year, but clutch problems forced him to a dramatic end to finish 5th. Whatsover, double WSS Champion's utmost aim for the season is high, but for the launch race of the season, Qatar, he plans to be in top 5, if possible a podium maybe..!

patnicholls

19th March 2011, 00:48

Firstly, it's good to be back - although obviously with Alvaro hurt already it's a bittersweet opening to the season.

Welcome aboard muscrae - good to have you aboard. I'm definitely a big fan of Kenan these days - he's so different in personality to most of the rest of the paddock that he takes some getting used to, but that's ultimately a good thing and as a rider he's awesome. Technomag do look to be struggling since he he went home to be with his father, hopefully things'll come together now we're off and running and it's understandable after the events of last year. Dominique Aegerter was better last year than he's shown in the last couple of tests too, and we know how well Shoya and Kenan did so I'm confident matters improve because Kenan should be a title contender, even in such a deep field.

NinjaMaster

19th March 2011, 09:19

The first three free practices have been run and Stoner has been fastest in all of 'em. Here's the results of the third one:

Pos No. Rider Bike Time Diff Diff Previous
1 27 Casey STONER HONDA 1'55.035
2 26 Dani PEDROSA HONDA 1'55.193 0.158 0.158
3 4 Andrea DOVIZIOSO HONDA 1'55.740 0.705 0.547
4 1 Jorge LORENZO YAMAHA 1'55.814 0.779 0.074
5 11 Ben SPIES YAMAHA 1'56.003 0.968 0.189
6 8 Hector BARBERA DUCATI 1'56.266 1.231 0.263
7 5 Colin EDWARDS YAMAHA 1'56.302 1.267 0.036
8 46 Valentino ROSSI DUCATI 1'56.306 1.271 0.004
9 14 Randy DE PUNIET DUCATI 1'56.362 1.327 0.056
10 65 Loris CAPIROSSI DUCATI 1'56.434 1.399 0.072
11 35 Cal CRUTCHLOW YAMAHA 1'56.437 1.402 0.003
12 7 Hiroshi AOYAMA HONDA 1'56.517 1.482 0.080
13 58 Marco SIMONCELLI HONDA 1'56.540 1.505 0.023
14 69 Nicky HAYDEN DUCATI 1'56.586 1.551 0.046
15 17 Karel ABRAHAM DUCATI 1'57.275 2.240 0.689
16 19 Alvaro BAUTISTA SUZUKI 1'57.601 2.566 0.326
17 24 Toni ELIAS HONDA 1'58.123 3.088 0.522

- Terrible news for Alvaro Bautista. I think he's unfairly criticised in some quarters and to be significantly injured so early in the season does not bode well for he or Suzuki.
- Rossi started positively in 5th place in first free practice but really hasn't improved his times and has dropped down the order.
- Lorenzo has been bested by Ben Spies for much of the pre-season and first practices but he has very strong consistent pace.
- Honda has continued it's pre-season dominance with Stoner and Pedrosa heading all sessions so far.
- After the top two, the mid-pack is extremely tight with eight tenths covering 3rd to 14th. It should be one helluva fight!

muscrae

19th March 2011, 11:32

Allyc85

19th March 2011, 18:10

Crutchlow infront of Rossi, one hell of an effort for a rookie with half a finger missing and a dodgy shoulder :D :D

Rod Richardson

19th March 2011, 21:57

QUALIFYING

Moto GP

Stoner Hon[/*:m:1hruzfj8]
Pedrosa Hon[/*:m:1hruzfj8]
Lorenzo Yam[/*:m:1hruzfj8]
Simoncelli Hin[/*:m:1hruzfj8]
Spies Yam[/*:m:1hruzfj8]
Barbera Duc[/*:m:1hruzfj8]
Dovisio Hon[/*:m:1hruzfj8]
Crutchlow Yam[/*:m:1hruzfj8]
Rossi Duc[/*:m:1hruzfj8]
Edwards Yam[/*:m:1hruzfj8]
DePuniet Duc[/*:m:1hruzfj8]
Aoyama Hon[/*:m:1hruzfj8]
Hayden Duc[/*:m:1hruzfj8]
Capirossi Duc[/*:m:1hruzfj8]
Abraham Duc[/*:m:1hruzfj8]
Elias Duc [/*:m:1hruzfj8]

Honda’s seamless shift gearbox is being touted as having provided a significant boost to the performance of their bikes. What’s next….. electronic gearshifts?

Shattering news for Bautista having a busted femur.

Ant West was one of 3 riders offered the replacement ride his Zuke but MZ’s Wimmer refused to allow it on the basis that West was needed to develop the MZ. West’s qualifying time on the MZ chassis’d bike was 2.4sec slower than MZ’s FTR chassis’d bike ridden by Neukerchner.

Moto 2

Bradl[/*:m:1hruzfj8]
Marquez[/*:m:1hruzfj8]
Luthi[/*:m:1hruzfj8]
Takahashi[/*:m:1hruzfj8]
Cluzel[/*:m:1hruzfj8]
Simon[/*:m:1hruzfj8]
Smith[/*:m:1hruzfj8]
DeAngelis[/*:m:1hruzfj8]
Pirro[/*:m:1hruzfj8]
Redding[/*:m:1hruzfj8]

Great consistent performances during practice and qualifying by Bradl and to see Marquez in No 2 slot.
.

I25 cc

Terol Apr[/*:m:1hruzfj8]
Cortese Apr[/*:m:1hruzfj8]
Vasquex Derbi[/*:m:1hruzfj8]
Gadea Apr[/*:m:1hruzfj8]
Faubel Apr[/*:m:1hruzfj8]
Folger Apr[/*:m:1hruzfj8]
Zarco Derbi[/*:m:1hruzfj8]
Moncayo Apr[/*:m:1hruzfj8]
Vinales Apr[/*:m:1hruzfj8]
Salom Apr[/*:m:1hruzfj8]

Looking forward to tight racing again this season.

Mach24

20th March 2011, 09:07

Who will finish 17th?...... Oh thats right!

NinjaMaster

20th March 2011, 09:33

Crutchlow infront of Rossi, one hell of an effort for a rookie with half a finger missing and a dodgy shoulder :D :D

And a whole lot less excuses!

Who will finish 17th?...... Oh thats right!

Even without Bautista, probably Elias!

It's really hard to see Stoner getting beat but Pedrosa has made a habit in the past of unexpectedly producing on race day. The battle for third should be a beaut with third to 13th in qualifying covered by eight tenths of a second.
Moto2 is going to be brutal. Especially with no more than three laps practice before the race on race day (night)!
I still expect Terol to win the 125 race but Cortese seems to be continuing his significant improvement he was making last year. Hopefully he can make Nico earn it as no-one else appears capable as yet.

About Kenan, it's really been a tough few years for him which makes his success all the more remarkable. Hope he does well, I like him - he makes racing (even more) exciting!

Allyc85

20th March 2011, 10:10

And a whole lot less excuses!

That is true! I think Rossi is great and he wil lalways be one of my favourite riders bu I am getting bored of hearing about his shoulder and the Ducati's handling problems!

NinjaMaster

20th March 2011, 10:17

And here are Dovi's brief thoughts of the Qatar circuit.

http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/Andrea-Dovizioso-Qatar-GP-Track-Notes.png

muscrae

20th March 2011, 11:24

Guys, any link to images from Moto2, please.??

F1boat

20th March 2011, 11:34

The bikes are not many, unfortunately. Casey seems in great form.

markabilly

20th March 2011, 12:10

Stoner is so scrawny, he must have a huge weight advantage

Wim_Impreza

20th March 2011, 12:14

I don't have the motivation to follow Moto2, even when there is this year a Belgian (Xavier Siméon) competing for a full year.

The only class of the 3 that is really interesting for me is the 125cc, but there is no coverage here. :(

Allyc85

20th March 2011, 15:47

Even though most of the races last year were epic?!

Wim_Impreza

20th March 2011, 18:09

No, the bikes are too simple to ride for a World Championship and there is only one manufacturer, Honda. I prefer to have much manufacturers like in WSBK.

patnicholls

20th March 2011, 23:55

As regards photos, I very much like the ones Scott Jones does for Motomatters:

http://www.motomatters.com/news/2011/03/20/inside_the_2011_qatar_motogp_through_the.html

patnicholls

21st March 2011, 00:59

Stoner is so scrawny, he must have a huge weight advantage

He's small, but the grid as a whole is pretty elfin in stature. Valentino's quoted weight is 65kg and he's about 6ft 1 tall - I'm about that weight and 5ft 10 tall, and I'm skinny. I think the only guys heavier than that are Marco Simoncelli and Nicky Hayden, who are in the 70s (maybe Ben Spies too).

However, when you're talking about the power-to-weight ratio of these machines (much more power than grip), I don't see weight as much of a factor. You probably need the muscle to hold on to them...

MrJan

21st March 2011, 08:46

Almost a tame race but with some good little two way battles through the field. Nice to see that Randy hasn't lost his touch, didn't even get halfway round the first lap before he was on his face :laugh:

But damn that Honda is quick, watching Pedrosa pull into the Honda lane is amazing. Although hopefully by the time we hit a twistier track like Jerez the balance will show and we'll get to see a bit closer racing...just hope that Burgess and Rossi can get that Duke firing so that we don't just end up with a Stoner/Lorenzo season.

CaptainRaiden

21st March 2011, 09:00

That is true! I think Rossi is great and he wil lalways be one of my favourite riders bu I am getting bored of hearing about his shoulder and the Ducati's handling problems!

He is telling it like it is. Rossi is a 7 time world champion who developed (along with JB) and rode some of the best MotoGP bikes, and this Ducati is obviously a step down. Look where Hayden qualified and finished. Barbera is effectively riding last year's Ducati, which was pretty good by year end. He has an obvious shoulder injury which is still in the healing process after the surgery, so I don't get why it's wrong to mention that either. If the reporters ask him about his shoulder, should he not reply?? :confused: Crutchlow may have qualified ahead of him, on last year's championship winning dominant M1 BTW, but just like he was in WSBK, he faded in the race, and Rossi obviously was the best Ducati finisher since he gets into another gear in the race, a case of the cream rising to the top.

Even though Stoner and Lorenzo have had a flying start, I still wouldn't count Rossi out for this year. He said his shoulder will be 100% by May, and now Ducati have a lot of race data to work with. Yes, there's still a long way to go for that Ducati, but never say never with the Doctor. He and Stoner obviously have a different riding style, and it's all about adaptation and improvement from now on.

CaptainRaiden

21st March 2011, 09:07

Well, MotoGP was an interesting race until halfway through, when Stoner finally overtook Pedrosa after studying him and pulled away. It's really a shame that Pedrosa had the arm pump problem, where he didn't have control in his left hand towards the end of the race and couldn't control the clutch. It's really a concern that his past injuries are still affecting him. He needs a lot of good physiotherapy on that left arm now to make sure this doesn't happen again, if he is to put up a serious charge for the championship.

Moto2 was a one sided race with Bradl putting that Kalex bike to good use, and Iannone fast on the Suter straightaway. Marquez showed that he has raw speed as he qualified second, but he's yet to learn the tricks of a Moto2 race.

The 125cc race was as one sided as it could possibly be. Terol winning by a 10 second margin, which at one point was 15 seconds! :eek: This is too much for the 125cc class, which provides extremely close racing, which it did for 2nd place, but well, not as exciting if it's not for the victory. The other riders better step their game up, or 2011 is a cakewalk for Terol.

patnicholls

21st March 2011, 10:31

Despite the start of the GP season being a few weeks earlier this year, it's felt like a long winter this time around so it's good to be back. In their own way, I enjoyed all the races.

2011 is going to be a bit of an odd year for bike racing - with it being the last year for the 800s and the prospect of 1000cc machines back next year freshening up the class there was a risk that some of the 800s wouldn't see as much development as usual. With the rider changes - and Honda's desire to win their final chance at the 800 title - it looks like that won't happen and despite the pretty slim 17 rider grid we're in for some good competition at the front. Next year the parameters change and we should see some weird and wonderful stuff like Suter-BMWs and maybe a Kalex MotoGP bike joining the party - numbers should certainly be back up.

Moto2 looks just as competitive as last year, maybe more so - with the chassis now being well sorted and riders acclimatising to the class we'll probably see a couple less surprises but there's still tons of riders and bikes who can be at the front (Bradley Smith's 9th place for Tech 3 on his Moto2 debut was VERY pleasantly surprising, ditto the Kalex taking the win with Bradl).

It's the last year of 125s which is sad as it's always been my favourite, but times change and technology has (for now) gone towards four-strokes. For the last couple of years we've been racing with a field of chassis of various ages and levels of development, which is why we've seen the races not be as close as during the 'glory days' but it's still possible to have a good scrap. Not to mention it being virtually a one-make championship nowadays. Again, if Moto2 is anything to go by then Moto3 should be brilliant and a worthy replacement.

(you've then got the issue of how the changes to MotoGP affect Superbikes and their Superstock classes, as the differences between them become smaller - more on that another time!)

In many ways, 2011 is the end of an era but there's plenty to look forward to.

gids73

22nd March 2011, 07:11

Pity Moto 3 didnt come in this year - 125cc this year is more like a Spanish National Championship than a World Championship...

CaptainRaiden

22nd March 2011, 08:58

Pity Moto 3 didnt come in this year - 125cc this year is more like a Spanish National Championship than a World Championship...

Even if Moto3 did come earlier, the majority of the riders would still be Spanish, because of the big scale national motorcycle racing championships that Spain has. They have their own national 125cc championship, then the CEV Buckler Moto2 championship again is based in Spain with all Spanish circuits and majority Spanish riders. There will always be a strong Spanish and Italian presence in the lower classes, and now they're increasing in numbers in MotoGP as well. It would be nice to have more riders from other nationalities as well, but the fact is that Spanish and Italian riders have a very solid base already before entering the world scene, and so it only makes sense for any team to hire someone who can handle it.

NinjaMaster

22nd March 2011, 11:47

Well, I enjoyed the first round of MotoGP, not only because Stoner won but also because of the competitiveness of the race. Remember that Qatar traditionally hasn't had the greatest racing anyway so, I think, this is an encouraging sign for the year ahead.
I wasn't at all surprised by Lorenzo's strong race. Probably a bit surprised he beat Pedrosa (though extenuating circumstances existed) but he slowly and quietly got consistently faster as the weekend wore on. Hopefully Dani gets his shoulder sorted and the title will definately be a tight, tough three-pronged battle. I was also chuffed to see Dovi fight back and beat Simoncelli. He looked none to pleased with Marco's pass during the race.
Spies was disappointing for me. I know he got an ordinary start but I expected to see a bit more muscle from him to get through the pack.
Rossi was whereabouts I expected him to be, a solid if unspectacular debut on the orange bike. It's going to be a struggle year for team Italia and if he can sneak a top 4 overall by seasons end it will be a big accomplishment.
Edwards, well, pretty much ditto for Rossi. Did the job expected of him.
Nicky Hayden did a good job fighting back from a terrible start. He's struggling with a bike that seems to have gone backwards (and playing Ducati test-mule) so his ninth was reasonable.
Hiro Aoyama was another I probably expected a bit more from. He's shown some great pace at times over the pre-season and whilst he wasn't too far behind Edwards, I would've loved to seen him battling right with Colin til the end. Perhaps Japans situation was playing on his mind?
I loved the Crutchlow-Barbera battle, especially that Cal won it! Barbera was making good use of his Ducati's superior top speed but Cal used real grit and racecraft to beat him to the line.
Karel Abraham had a pretty much unsighted debut but didn't disgrace himself by any means. There is talent with him so I think he'll get better as the season progress...
...unlike Toni Elias. His crash was so weird, so close to the end of the race and all on his own. Will he keep his ride all season?
And finally, Pramac had a race to forget. For DePuniet's Ducati debut to result in him effectively taking himself and his teammate out, well, things can only get better!

Unfortunately I missed the 125's and Moto2. Something about getting up at 2 in the morning to watch racing til 7 then head to work at 7:30! Soft, I know!

Can't wait for Jerez! :up:

He is telling it like it is.

Just a quick enquiry that hopefully someone can clear up for me - what is the difference between "telling it like it is" and 'moaning'? Seems to me honesty for some riders is ok whilst for others they are making excuses.

Rossi is a 7 time world champion who developed (along with JB) and rode some of the best MotoGP bikes, and this Ducati is obviously a step down. Look where Hayden qualified and finished. Barbera is effectively riding last year's Ducati, which was pretty good by year end. He has an obvious shoulder injury which is still in the healing process after the surgery, so I don't get why it's wrong to mention that either. If the reporters ask him about his shoulder, should he not reply?? :confused: Crutchlow may have qualified ahead of him, on last year's championship winning dominant M1 BTW, but just like he was in WSBK, he faded in the race, and Rossi obviously was the best Ducati finisher since he gets into another gear in the race, a case of the cream rising to the top.

Just a couple of points, Rossi and JB helped develop his previous rides. The manufacturers need some credit as well (sorry, a pet peeve of mine).
Crutchlow also has a crook shoulder to go with his freshly mashed finger. Lot's of people don't know this though because he doesn't complain about it...

patnicholls

22nd March 2011, 12:36

CaptainRaiden

22nd March 2011, 15:11

Just a quick enquiry that hopefully someone can clear up for me - what is the difference between "telling it like it is" and 'moaning'? Seems to me honesty for some riders is ok whilst for others they are making excuses.

An example of "telling it like it is" would be Rossi explaining his shoulder situation in detail when asked by reporters and pretty much the whole of Italy, along with probably half the world who are very interested in how the 7 time world champion is getting along on his new ride.

An example of "moaning" would be Stoner whinging for the last two years about how bad the Ducati handled and petty excuses for why he crashed that often. Also, probably why he jumped ship to a more competitive bike.

Just a couple of points, Rossi and JB helped develop his previous rides. The manufacturers need some credit as well (sorry, a pet peeve of mine).
Crutchlow also has a crook shoulder to go with his freshly mashed finger. Lot's of people don't know this though because he doesn't complain about it...

Sorry, but before Rossi's championship winning year in 2004, the last time Yamaha won was 12 years ago in 1992 with Wayne Rainey. So, I would have reason to believe that Rossi and JB had a pretty big contribution, if not huge, into making that M1 a championship winning bike. Yamaha also dropped the ball in 2006 and 2007 with a less competitive engine. Colin Edwards was never anywhere near Rossi's level on the same bike, and it took Lorenzo two years, countless crashes, and an injury filled season from Rossi to finally win the championship on that bike. I'm not saying it was ALL Rossi and JB, Yamaha stepped up their game as well. But if Rossi had stayed with Honda and never made the switch, I would assume that Yamaha would at least have 4 less championships. And he has once again displayed "testicular fortitude" by switching from a championship winning dominant bike to what has pretty much been a dog for the last two years.

As for Crutchlow's injuries, they are pretty well documented and probably the only ones who don't know about it are casual viewers or noobs. Also, we're talking here about a rookie versus pretty much a living legend in MotoGP terms. So, it's pretty damn obvious that almost everyone is interested in what's going on with Rossi, and hence the extra focus and attention on him by almost everyone. Also, Crutchlow did talk about his injuries on BBC and British Eurosport, because of the partisan British crowd.

NinjaMaster

23rd March 2011, 09:25

As regards Toni Elias, what was alluded to on Eurosport was that he traditionally runs a softer compound that everyone else which wasn't so much of a problem in the old days of Michelin making tyres specific to each rider. Clearly the ones used for Moto2 last year were to his liking, but he's really struggling to get much heat into the current Bridgestone compounds on offer.

Expect the struggles to continue, unfortunately.

Yeah, apparently the Bridgestones have got a lot harder even just in the 12 months it has been since Elias was last in MotoGP. Whilst I've never been much of a fan of his, I do feel sorry for him that his unique riding style appears to be killing his MotoGP future. I think it's going to take more than adapting his style to make things work - more like completely change his riding style which at this stage of his career I don't think will be an option. Whish is a shame.

An example of "telling it like it is" would be Rossi explaining his shoulder situation in detail when asked by reporters and pretty much the whole of Italy, along with probably half the world who are very interested in how the 7 time world champion is getting along on his new ride.

An example of "moaning" would be Stoner whinging for the last two years about how bad the Ducati handled and petty excuses for why he crashed that often. Also, probably why he jumped ship to a more competitive bike.

In the next paragraph you call the Ducati of the past 2 seasons a dog, wouldn't that be Stoner just calling it as it is then? And jumping onto a more competitive bike from one that is falling behind is just smart.
And to correct you, the only complaint Casey had about the 2009 Ducati was that it's potential was wasted by his physical ailments. In 2010 he opined that they had front end issues early until they found the right balance near the end of the year. This is the same 'moaning' that Rossi has joined in with this year.

Sorry, but before Rossi's championship winning year in 2004, the last time Yamaha won was 12 years ago in 1992 with Wayne Rainey. So, I would have reason to believe that Rossi and JB had a pretty big contribution, if not huge, into making that M1 a championship winning bike. Yamaha also dropped the ball in 2006 and 2007 with a less competitive engine. Colin Edwards was never anywhere near Rossi's level on the same bike, and it took Lorenzo two years, countless crashes, and an injury filled season from Rossi to finally win the championship on that bike. I'm not saying it was ALL Rossi and JB, Yamaha stepped up their game as well. But if Rossi had stayed with Honda and never made the switch, I would assume that Yamaha would at least have 4 less championships. And he has once again displayed "testicular fortitude" by switching from a championship winning dominant bike to what has pretty much been a dog for the last two years.

Rossi and JB did make a big contribution, but it was just that - a contribution. They helped to develop the bike. You see, Rossi rides the bike (obviously) and gives feedback as to how it is performing and he apparently gives excellent, precise and detailed information as to what the bike is exactly doing. From there, JB explains it to the engineers and they go away and develop improvements to the bike. So it is up to the manufacturer to develop the bike on the back of what the riders say. And Yamaha were good at it, turning around the M1 into a competitive machine in quick time. Rossi's biggest contribution was his genius as a rider, being able to beat the likes of Gibernau and Biaggi on the superior Honda machine (the major Yamaha riders since Rainey include the likes of Cadalora, Abe, Bayle, Capirossi, Biaggi, Checa, McCoy, Laconi, Checa, Nakano and Barros - all fine riders but none the quality of Rossi). Unfortunately for Yamaha, Rossi and Burgess get the praise for winning whilst Yamaha cops the criticism when it didn't go well. Which is completely unfair.
Ducati, however, haven't been so successful at development. Their bike has been completely unuser (not actually a real word, I'm sure!) friendly for all who aren't Casey Stoner since 2007 and they really haven't improved it at all. They've even got slower this year despite having Rossi and Burgess there to give them development guidance. Does this mean that Vale and Jerry have lost their ability for development? Of course not. They can only give feedback, it's up to Ducati to build the bike and so far they've got it wrong.
Also, it could easily equally be argued that Rossi would have shown 'testicular fortitude' had he stayed at Yamaha to take Lorenzo head on, on equal machinery, to show last year was merely an aberration but he's still top dog instead of allowing himself the excuse of inferior equipment.

As for Crutchlow's injuries, they are pretty well documented and probably the only ones who don't know about it are casual viewers or noobs. Also, we're talking here about a rookie versus pretty much a living legend in MotoGP terms. So, it's pretty damn obvious that almost everyone is interested in what's going on with Rossi, and hence the extra focus and attention on him by almost everyone. Also, Crutchlow did talk about his injuries on BBC and British Eurosport, because of the partisan British crowd.

Sorry, that's my bad. I figured your criticism of Crutchlow fading during the race was because you were unaware he was riding injured.

CaptainRaiden

23rd March 2011, 11:09

In the next paragraph you call the Ducati of the past 2 seasons a dog, wouldn't that be Stoner just calling it as it is then? And jumping onto a more competitive bike from one that is falling behind is just smart.

Well, going by this logic then, would it be fair to say that what Rossi has done twice in his career now is stupid? Or maybe ballsy? Or maybe he is the only rider in the current field with the "testicular fortitude" to make such a move? :p

And to correct you, the only complaint Casey had about the 2009 Ducati was that it's potential was wasted by his physical ailments. In 2010 he opined that they had front end issues early until they found the right balance near the end of the year. This is the same 'moaning' that Rossi has joined in with this year.

I don't know what broadcast you were watching, but on the MotoGP.com live streaming, since 2008 every time Stoner crashed or didn't finish on the podium and Nick Harris (the commentator) happened to take his interview, there was usually an outburst. I specifically remember him once saying "I don't know what's wrong with this bike," or "Ducati can't seem to find a solution" and also "This bike is a disaster." So, you could excuse me for thinking that after 2007 ended, all Stoner has done is whine about the bike. Also, once Rossi started putting pressure on him, he started to crash regularly (see 2008 Laguna Seca and then Brno).

Rossi and JB did make a big contribution, but it was just that - a contribution. They helped to develop the bike. You see, Rossi rides the bike (obviously) and gives feedback as to how it is performing and he apparently gives excellent, precise and detailed information as to what the bike is exactly doing. From there, JB explains it to the engineers and they go away and develop improvements to the bike. So it is up to the manufacturer to develop the bike on the back of what the riders say. And Yamaha were good at it, turning around the M1 into a competitive machine in quick time. Rossi's biggest contribution was his genius as a rider, being able to beat the likes of Gibernau and Biaggi on the superior Honda machine (the major Yamaha riders since Rainey include the likes of Cadalora, Abe, Bayle, Capirossi, Biaggi, Checa, McCoy, Laconi, Checa, Nakano and Barros - all fine riders but none the quality of Rossi). Unfortunately for Yamaha, Rossi and Burgess get the praise for winning whilst Yamaha cops the criticism when it didn't go well. Which is completely unfair.

You kind of answered your own question there. You mentioned a couple of very talented riders who rode for Yamaha, Capirossi, Biaggi, Checa, Barros and also Haga. If Yamaha would have continued with any two of these riders, do you think the M1 would have won those 4 championships and developed into such a dominant bike? What was the difference between the riders who rode it before and Rossi along with JB? The fact is, the M1 was a midfield bike at best, and you could arguably say that without the excellent, precise and detailed information from Rossi it probably wouldn't have won those championships. I'm not taking anything away from the brilliant engineers at Yamaha, but before Rossi joined in, they seemed to be at sea with the thing. Even in 2004 that bike was a handful, and it took almost superhuman effort from Rossi to win on that machine. Rossi's amazing input pushed Yamaha to develop that bike into a winner, which PROBABLY they would have done any way, but Valentino Rossi undeniably still remains a huge factor in their success in the last decade.

Ducati, however, haven't been so successful at development. Their bike has been completely unuser (not actually a real word, I'm sure!) friendly for all who aren't Casey Stoner since 2007 and they really haven't improved it at all. They've even got slower this year despite having Rossi and Burgess there to give them development guidance. Does this mean that Vale and Jerry have lost their ability for development? Of course not. They can only give feedback, it's up to Ducati to build the bike and so far they've got it wrong.

The reason why they got slower is probably because they redesigned the GP11 to suit Rossi's style, probably why Hayden is struggling on it this much. Now they need loads of race data and feedback, something which cannot happen overnight. Another thing which isn't in Rossi's favor this year, compared to 2004, is that the talent pool is much deeper now. Besides, his level of riding prompted everybody else to step up their game, and now he has to content with 3 or 4 very brilliant, hungry riders on brilliant machinery. In 2004, his biggest competition was Biaggi and Gibernau on satellite Hondas. Also, he mentioned in one of his interviews that while the M1 was similar to the RCV, the Desmosedici is a whole different animal, and in his words, "The Ducati is a proper prototype," so this again could take some extra time since his riding style is obviously very different to Stoner's.

Also, it could easily equally be argued that Rossi would have shown 'testicular fortitude' had he stayed at Yamaha to take Lorenzo head on, on equal machinery, to show last year was merely an aberration but he's still top dog instead of allowing himself the excuse of inferior equipment.

I think he showed pretty good testicular fortitude last year by coming back to ride earlier than expected, before his shoulder could heal completely, getting 5 podiums and confirming he's still the top dog with that victory at Malaysia, also roughing up Lorenzo at Japan. He could have very well had the surgery done, taken the rest of the year off and come to the first test fully fit and ride to his 100%, and probably give better feedback to the engineers at Ducati, but he did finish the year at Yamaha. I don't think he chickened out of fighting with Lorenzo on equal machinery, he did that for 3 years with the record being 2-1. He simply wanted a new challenge, and winning on the Ducati at this point in time is arguably a much bigger challenge than winning on the M1.

NinjaMaster

26th March 2011, 03:57

Well, going by this logic then, would it be fair to say that what Rossi has done twice in his career now is stupid? Or maybe ballsy? Or maybe he is the only rider in the current field with the "testicular fortitude" to make such a move? :p

My comment was regarding Stoner's decision only. It's a pretty long bow to draw that Rossi's decisions to move were stupid. They were ballsy definately, but his circumstances were generally pretty different to Casey's. It's worth remembering that Rossi left Honda, less for the new challenge and more because they were taking him for granted. They were asking him to do more and more PR as well as telling the public that it was their bike winning, less to do with the rider and Rossi was rightfully peeved. So his switch to Yamaha was more of an 'up yours' to Honda and they've learned a harsh lesson.

[quote="X-ecutioner":1qogo36g]I don't know what broadcast you were watching, but on the MotoGP.com live streaming, since 2008 every time Stoner crashed or didn't finish on the podium and Nick Harris (the commentator) happened to take his interview, there was usually an outburst. I specifically remember him once saying "I don't know what's wrong with this bike," or "Ducati can't seem to find a solution" and also "This bike is a disaster." So, you could excuse me for thinking that after 2007 ended, all Stoner has done is whine about the bike. Also, once Rossi started putting pressure on him, he started to crash regularly (see 2008 Laguna Seca and then Brno).

I've never heard Casey call the bike a disaster. Has he complained? Of course! Just like every other rider! It's my opinion that 'moaning' has been completely overblown, that he's not nearly as negative as people make him out to be. More the problem is his honesty. If he's asked his opinion on a topic, he gives it bluntly. If the bike hasn't been going so well, he explains that rather than give the bland, politically correct answers most other riders give. The problem for him is that when a bike has a handling problem, it is hard for an outsider to see (unless it's like Pedrosa's Honda weaving down the Qatar straight in 2010) unlike when the Yamaha had engine deficiencies in 2006 and 07 that Rossi would constantly complain about. So because the problems aren't visibly obvious it sounds like excuses.

You kind of answered your own question there. You mentioned a couple of very talented riders who rode for Yamaha, Capirossi, Biaggi, Checa, Barros and also Haga. If Yamaha would have continued with any two of these riders, do you think the M1 would have won those 4 championships and developed into such a dominant bike? What was the difference between the riders who rode it before and Rossi along with JB? The fact is, the M1 was a midfield bike at best, and you could arguably say that without the excellent, precise and detailed information from Rossi it probably wouldn't have won those championships. I'm not taking anything away from the brilliant engineers at Yamaha, but before Rossi joined in, they seemed to be at sea with the thing. Even in 2004 that bike was a handful, and it took almost superhuman effort from Rossi to win on that machine. Rossi's amazing input pushed Yamaha to develop that bike into a winner, which PROBABLY they would have done any way, but Valentino Rossi undeniably still remains a huge factor in their success in the last decade.

I actually didn't ask a question but you've helped justify my statement. Yamaha underestimated what they needed to be competitve in MotoGP (as they did again in 2007) and were indeed sub-standard compared to Honda. Rossi and JB helped give Yamaha direction to develop the M1. My argument all along was that it was a team effort between the three of them but Rossi and Burgess get all the plaudits for development when Yamaha should get as much credit for the bikes success as well as the failures in 06 and 07. Yamaha finally had the bike/rider combination they had been missing to delivery a title in the previous 12 years and Rossi's biggest contribution was as a rider.

The reason why they got slower is probably because they redesigned the GP11 to suit Rossi's style, probably why Hayden is struggling on it this much. Now they need loads of race data and feedback, something which cannot happen overnight. Another thing which isn't in Rossi's favor this year, compared to 2004, is that the talent pool is much deeper now. Besides, his level of riding prompted everybody else to step up their game, and now he has to content with 3 or 4 very brilliant, hungry riders on brilliant machinery. In 2004, his biggest competition was Biaggi and Gibernau on satellite Hondas. Also, he mentioned in one of his interviews that while the M1 was similar to the RCV, the Desmosedici is a whole different animal, and in his words, "The Ducati is a proper prototype," so this again could take some extra time since his riding style is obviously very different to Stoner's.

Remembering that the Ducati was a race winner last year, it's not a slow dog like the 03 M1 that Rossi has to work with. My understanding is that the new parts Ducati have brought out (flex front end's, etc.) haven't been an improvement at all. They've got 12 months of data from the CF frame to work from and at best they've stagnated. This is why I say that the engineers do the develping, the riders just give feedback. Also, whilst the Ducati may be a 'true prototype' (acknowledged by Stoner), the current model is the 'user friendly' model with the smoother big-bang engine that allowed Nicky Hayden to score multiple top 5's last year, not the fire breathing beast of 2007-8 that basically ruined Marco Melandri's MotoGP career.

I think he showed pretty good testicular fortitude last year by coming back to ride earlier than expected, before his shoulder could heal completely, getting 5 podiums and confirming he's still the top dog with that victory at Malaysia, also roughing up Lorenzo at Japan. He could have very well had the surgery done, taken the rest of the year off and come to the first test fully fit and ride to his 100%, and probably give better feedback to the engineers at Ducati, but he did finish the year at Yamaha. I don't think he chickened out of fighting with Lorenzo on equal machinery, he did that for 3 years with the record being 2-1. He simply wanted a new challenge, and winning on the Ducati at this point in time is arguably a much bigger challenge than winning on the M1.[/quote:1qogo36g]

No-one doubts Rossi's on track bravery. To come back from injury and be so competitive was amazing. However, Vale has always raged against having a competitive teammate which is why he always got along with Edwards and Hayden who were inferior riders to him. He vetoed twice Yamaha's attempts to sign Stoner and was annoyed when they signed Lorenzo. He was also quoted as saying that Yamaha has to choose between he and Lorenzo for this year and was angry that he was asked to take a paycut so that Jorge could have a payrise (similarly, Ducati's play for Jorge at over double what Casey was earning is a significant reson for Stoner's Honda defection). So I doubt that a new challenge was his only reason for leaving. All I was saying was it would have been equally brave for Valentino to finish the 800cc period with Yamaha and it crushes any argument of running away.

CaptainRaiden

29th March 2011, 09:11

I've never heard Casey call the bike a disaster. Has he complained? Of course! Just like every other rider! It's my opinion that 'moaning' has been completely overblown, that he's not nearly as negative as people make him out to be. More the problem is his honesty. If he's asked his opinion on a topic, he gives it bluntly. If the bike hasn't been going so well, he explains that rather than give the bland, politically correct answers most other riders give. The problem for him is that when a bike has a handling problem, it is hard for an outsider to see (unless it's like Pedrosa's Honda weaving down the Qatar straight in 2010) unlike when the Yamaha had engine deficiencies in 2006 and 07 that Rossi would constantly complain about. So because the problems aren't visibly obvious it sounds like excuses.

Well then going by the same logic, why is Rossi called a whiner when he's simply answering questions about his shoulder? It's not like he's going out of his way to publish excuses on his blog or website or something to explain his performance.

I actually didn't ask a question but you've helped justify my statement. Yamaha underestimated what they needed to be competitve in MotoGP (as they did again in 2007) and were indeed sub-standard compared to Honda. Rossi and JB helped give Yamaha direction to develop the M1. My argument all along was that it was a team effort between the three of them but Rossi and Burgess get all the plaudits for development when Yamaha should get as much credit for the bikes success as well as the failures in 06 and 07. Yamaha finally had the bike/rider combination they had been missing to delivery a title in the previous 12 years and Rossi's biggest contribution was as a rider.

Of course him being the rider was the biggest contribution, but it's still an undeniable fact that without his input and Burgess' genius, the M1 wouldn't probably be the machine it is today. Again, not taking anything away from Yamaha, I'm sure they're brilliant at what they do, but like I said before, without Rossi and JB, Yamaha PROBABLY wouldn't have won all those championships or even develop the bike to such a high standard that it is today.

Remembering that the Ducati was a race winner last year, it's not a slow dog like the 03 M1 that Rossi has to work with. My understanding is that the new parts Ducati have brought out (flex front end's, etc.) haven't been an improvement at all. They've got 12 months of data from the CF frame to work from and at best they've stagnated. This is why I say that the engineers do the develping, the riders just give feedback. Also, whilst the Ducati may be a 'true prototype' (acknowledged by Stoner), the current model is the 'user friendly' model with the smoother big-bang engine that allowed Nicky Hayden to score multiple top 5's last year, not the fire breathing beast of 2007-8 that basically ruined Marco Melandri's MotoGP career.

Still, the GP11 is an evolution of last year's bike, modified heavily to suit Rossi's style, but not completely redesigned, neither is a revolution. So, it's not a significantly different bike like the Honda or the Yamaha. It would still take Rossi some time to tame this beast. Stoner is obviously a very talented rider, the only one who was able to crack the Ducati code, and it will take Rossi a few races to do that himself. We've only had one race so far, so still a long way to go. Also, IMO Ducati and Rossi will see this year out, and probably most of the input would go into designing next year's bike.

No-one doubts Rossi's on track bravery. To come back from injury and be so competitive was amazing. However, Vale has always raged against having a competitive teammate which is why he always got along with Edwards and Hayden who were inferior riders to him. He vetoed twice Yamaha's attempts to sign Stoner and was annoyed when they signed Lorenzo. He was also quoted as saying that Yamaha has to choose between he and Lorenzo for this year and was angry that he was asked to take a paycut so that Jorge could have a payrise (similarly, Ducati's play for Jorge at over double what Casey was earning is a significant reson for Stoner's Honda defection). So I doubt that a new challenge was his only reason for leaving. All I was saying was it would have been equally brave for Valentino to finish the 800cc period with Yamaha and it crushes any argument of running away.

You obviously know a lot more about the inside stuff in MotoGP. For example, I never knew that Yamaha wanted to sign Stoner, and that Rossi was against that move, never read about that anywhere, also nothing about the paycut. I did however read about Ducati wanting Jorge, and that was all. However, I still stand by what I said earlier, that winning on the Duc, at this point in time, right now, is arguably a much bigger challenge than winning on the already dominant M1, since Rossi has already done that twice. That M1 has been ahead by light years compared to whatever the Desmosedici has done in the last 3 years. I mean look at how Crutchlow is quick on it straight away.

I don't understand where the argument of "running away" even originates from. Rossi has already beaten Jorge twice on the M1, and there's nothing else to prove. Lorenzo was only able to better Rossi when Rossi had the injury last year and missed 3 races. In 2009, Lorenzo was pressured by Rossi several times, and he ended up in the gravel, much like what he has done with almost all his bitter rivals. For Rossi, now the challenge is to beat Jorge on a bike that Stoner couldn't beat him with. Isn't that a bigger challenge than beating Jorge for the third time on the same bike?

patnicholls

29th March 2011, 12:02

I think a lot of what you're both discussing depends on public perception of the riders.

Casey has, certainly with Ducati, always been a bit of a 'lone gunman' and doesn't much care for having a PR face - his mentality is "I don't care if you hate me, I'm here to win and that's all". Rossi has his self-created facade(s) which have endeared him rather more to the [casual] public, although sometimes that slips - like his surprise outburst at the start of this year about Casey and Jorge. Jorge, Dani and Ben are different again in their own ways. As for the different between 'whining' and 'telling it like it is', again that's a matter of personal interpretation. I will shamelessly bring in a national generalisation and say that Aussies tend to be pretty good at telling it like it is (see also: the enduring popularity of Anthony West, and Mark Webber in F1).

It's odd to think that this is my twelfth season of watching MotoGP - by a weird quirk of fate I joined it in the year 2000 as did many others in the UK (as it was picked up by a terrestrial TV station for the first time, rather than the romantic notion that the increase in UK popularity over the past decade was all down to Valentino). At the time Valentino was the new kid on the block and I think crashed in his first two races before settling down and only losing out to Kenny Roberts jnr on account of the year having so many wet races - it's funny to see the same things now being brought up about Jorge's debut MotoGP season. Times change and Valentino is now the old man of the frontrunners rather than the young scamp.

I don't have a point to make really - let's just enjoy the ride.

NinjaMaster

29th March 2011, 12:37

Well then going by the same logic, why is Rossi called a whiner when he's simply answering questions about his shoulder? It's not like he's going out of his way to publish excuses on his blog or website or something to explain his performance.

Exactly! It's the same as when Casey had his scaphoid operated on and then his illness - he would be interviewed and asked about those issues, he would answer them and people would say he's moaning. Stoner hates the attention so he's not calling his own personal press conferences so he can make excuses, he just answers the journalists questions when he has too. The same goes when Rossi gets hounded by the media (particularly the Italian media) and because of it we get sick of hearing about his shoulder, the same as he would be sick of answering questions about it!

Of course him being the rider was the biggest contribution, but it's still an undeniable fact that without his input and Burgess' genius, the M1 wouldn't probably be the machine it is today. Again, not taking anything away from Yamaha, I'm sure they're brilliant at what they do, but like I said before, without Rossi and JB, Yamaha PROBABLY wouldn't have won all those championships or even develop the bike to such a high standard that it is today.

And I'm happy for Rossi and Burgess to receive the recognition they deserve so long and Honda and Yamaha do too. You missed mentioning them earlier, like a lot of people do, and that's where my qualm was.

You obviously know a lot more about the inside stuff in MotoGP. For example, I never knew that Yamaha wanted to sign Stoner, and that Rossi was against that move, never read about that anywhere, also nothing about the paycut. I did however read about Ducati wanting Jorge, and that was all. However, I still stand by what I said earlier, that winning on the Duc, at this point in time, right now, is arguably a much bigger challenge than winning on the already dominant M1, since Rossi has already done that twice. That M1 has been ahead by light years compared to whatever the Desmosedici has done in the last 3 years. I mean look at how Crutchlow is quick on it straight away.

I don't understand where the argument of "running away" even originates from. Rossi has already beaten Jorge twice on the M1, and there's nothing else to prove. Lorenzo was only able to better Rossi when Rossi had the injury last year and missed 3 races. In 2009, Lorenzo was pressured by Rossi several times, and he ended up in the gravel, much like what he has done with almost all his bitter rivals. For Rossi, now the challenge is to beat Jorge on a bike that Stoner couldn't beat him with. Isn't that a bigger challenge than beating Jorge for the third time on the same bike?

Rossi beat Lorenzo as a rookie (as expected) and again in Jorges second year but Lorenzo was stronger and closer. A lot of people believe that Jorge improved again in 2010 but has now gone passed Rossi (he beat Rossi 2 times out of three before Rossi's broken leg) and say that Rossi is running away from a competitive teammate he couldn't break mentally. The only way for either of them to beat the other without excuse is on the same equipment. That is where the equal challenge lies.
The move to Ducati is a calculated gamble for Rossi. It will be hard work and may not be as successful as staying with Yamaha but if it does go pear-shaped then the blame will be with Ducati but if they win then the credit will go to Rossi and JB's brilliance.

NinjaMaster

29th March 2011, 12:44

I don't have a point to make really - let's just enjoy the ride.

:D Enjoy it indeed! It's a golden age of riders I reckon from the flambouyant Rossi, Lorenzo and Simoncelli to the quiet Stoner, Pedrosa, Spies and Dovizioso, it makes for an interesting mix. All of them attention seeking and we get turned off by the shouting over the top of each other, all of them private and we're bored (on track and off!).

MrMetro

29th March 2011, 19:24

IMO,

CaptainRaiden

1st April 2011, 13:42

Totally forgot about this thread!

I think a lot of what you're both discussing depends on public perception of the riders.

Casey has, certainly with Ducati, always been a bit of a 'lone gunman' and doesn't much care for having a PR face - his mentality is "I don't care if you hate me, I'm here to win and that's all". Rossi has his self-created facade(s) which have endeared him rather more to the [casual] public, although sometimes that slips - like his surprise outburst at the start of this year about Casey and Jorge. Jorge, Dani and Ben are different again in their own ways. As for the different between 'whining' and 'telling it like it is', again that's a matter of personal interpretation. I will shamelessly bring in a national generalisation and say that Aussies tend to be pretty good at telling it like it is (see also: the enduring popularity of Anthony West, and Mark Webber in F1).

I don't think Rossi's personna is a facade. In fact, I think Rossi and Casey are quite alike in the sense that they both have refused to shake hands with a rival after the race. :p Although Rossi's reaction was simply disdain for Gibernau, Stoner's was more childish and annoyance over getting beaten by Rossi at a race where he was 1.5 seconds faster than the field in practice. I don't know about nationalities, but I do think both of them are sore losers. Well, here's the if you wouldn't hate to lose, you would never be a winner philosophy. Rossi is globally well liked, first because of his talent and the championships he has won, and secondly because of the lanky, fun loving personna that he I guess has demonstrated from his outrageous post race celebrations, which Lorenzo now tries to copy.

I wouldn't want to piss off any Australians here, but as far as Ant West and Mark Webber go, I'm sorry, but the bad luck, bad machinery card can only be played this many times. While Ant West is an exceptional wet weather rider, he's quite ordinary in the dry. And Mark Webber has been consistently outperformed by Vettel. The only way Mark manages to beat Vettel sometimes is when he has a bad day.

CaptainRaiden

1st April 2011, 14:04

Rossi beat Lorenzo as a rookie (as expected) and again in Jorges second year but Lorenzo was stronger and closer. A lot of people believe that Jorge improved again in 2010 but has now gone passed Rossi (he beat Rossi 2 times out of three before Rossi's broken leg) and say that Rossi is running away from a competitive teammate he couldn't break mentally. The only way for either of them to beat the other without excuse is on the same equipment. That is where the equal challenge lies.
The move to Ducati is a calculated gamble for Rossi. It will be hard work and may not be as successful as staying with Yamaha but if it does go pear-shaped then the blame will be with Ducati but if they win then the credit will go to Rossi and JB's brilliance.

You can't base your opinion of how much Jorge improved compared to Rossi in 2010 based on just three races. The rest of the season was Rossi's injury, and then recovering from it. Yes, Jorge was very good at Jerez and Le mans last year, but Rossi is known to come back stronger during the middle of the season and especially towards the end of a championship season in the way he adjusts his riding, setup and starts to put pressure on his main rivals, like what he did with Biaggi before, with Gibernau in 2004 when it seemed he would be running away with the championship after winning 2 out of the first three races, with Stoner in 2008, the kind of kamikaze racing at Laguna Seca that broke Stoner mentally, at least for that year, and then in 2009 he put pressure on Lorenzo which seemed to break him as well. It's surprising Ninja, I was sure that at least you would know, from your experience of watching grand prix racing in the last decade, that you can't count Rossi out until the final race of the season.

And I would reiterate again that Rossi has nothing more to prove at Yamaha. He has spent seven dominant years with them, reeling in 4 world championships. Also, he won the 500cc World Championship in his second year on the Honda NSR, beating the likes of more experienced riders like reigning champion Kenny Roberts Jr. and Max Biaggi in the process. So, there is no excuse for Lorenzo that he couldn't win it in his second year. He was beaten fair and square by Rossi, end of story. If he was really so good, he should have done it. In 2008 Jorge was too crash prone, in 2009 he was consistent, fast, but not as fast as Rossi, 2010 we would never know what would have been the outcome if Rossi hadn't missed 4 races, and spent the rest of the year riding on painkillers and recovering. Besides, once Dani Pedrosa turned on the kill switch, Lorenzo was struggling and only squeaked out the championship in the second last race of the season. He should have won it by a country mile on the best bike on the grid, and with Rossi out.

So, the record still stands 2-1 head to head between Rossi and Lorenzo, regardless of injuries to both of them. Nothing more to prove for Rossi on the M1, and winning on the crap handling Ducati at this point would be a MUCH bigger accomplishment.

NinjaMaster

4th April 2011, 13:11

You can't base your opinion of how much Jorge improved compared to Rossi in 2010 based on just three races. The rest of the season was Rossi's injury, and then recovering from it. Yes, Jorge was very good at Jerez and Le mans last year, but Rossi is known to come back stronger during the middle of the season and especially towards the end of a championship season in the way he adjusts his riding, setup and starts to put pressure on his main rivals, like what he did with Biaggi before, with Gibernau in 2004 when it seemed he would be running away with the championship after winning 2 out of the first three races, with Stoner in 2008, the kind of kamikaze racing at Laguna Seca that broke Stoner mentally, at least for that year, and then in 2009 he put pressure on Lorenzo which seemed to break him as well. It's surprising Ninja, I was sure that at least you would know, from your experience of watching grand prix racing in the last decade, that you can't count Rossi out until the final race of the season.

And I would reiterate again that Rossi has nothing more to prove at Yamaha. He has spent seven dominant years with them, reeling in 4 world championships. Also, he won the 500cc World Championship in his second year on the Honda NSR, beating the likes of more experienced riders like reigning champion Kenny Roberts Jr. and Max Biaggi in the process. So, there is no excuse for Lorenzo that he couldn't win it in his second year. He was beaten fair and square by Rossi, end of story. If he was really so good, he should have done it. In 2008 Jorge was too crash prone, in 2009 he was consistent, fast, but not as fast as Rossi, 2010 we would never know what would have been the outcome if Rossi hadn't missed 4 races, and spent the rest of the year riding on painkillers and recovering. Besides, once Dani Pedrosa turned on the kill switch, Lorenzo was struggling and only squeaked out the championship in the second last race of the season. He should have won it by a country mile on the best bike on the grid, and with Rossi out.

So, the record still stands 2-1 head to head between Rossi and Lorenzo, regardless of injuries to both of them. Nothing more to prove for Rossi on the M1, and winning on the crap handling Ducati at this point would be a MUCH bigger accomplishment.

X, I haven't counted Rossi out at all and I don't know where you get that assumption from. He is one of the 'aliens' (I'm getting sick of that term) but for mine, he's clearly no longer the definitive top dog but definately still competitive. In my opinion, Stoner and Lorenzo are now marginally ahead of him and Pedrosa is faster on raw speed but Rossi is a better 'racer' than Dani. Vale should still be a contender for at least the next couple of years.

Now X, I know that you don't believe for a second that beating Biaggi and KRJR (as good as they were) is anywhere near as tough a nut to crack as beating Rossi in the second year of MotoGP (as Stoner did). Jorge rode brilliantly last year and deserved the title more than anyone else. And whilst I agree that Rossi had nothing left to prove with Yamaha, I believe he still had as much challenge in remaining Lorenzo's teammate at Yamaha as riding on the already race winning Ducati. Either option, I think, is a strong challenge for him.

CaptainRaiden

4th April 2011, 18:03

X, I haven't counted Rossi out at all and I don't know where you get that assumption from. He is one of the 'aliens' (I'm getting sick of that term) but for mine, he's clearly no longer the definitive top dog but definately still competitive. In my opinion, Stoner and Lorenzo are now marginally ahead of him and Pedrosa is faster on raw speed but Rossi is a better 'racer' than Dani. Vale should still be a contender for at least the next couple of years.

Now X, I know that you don't believe for a second that beating Biaggi and KRJR (as good as they were) is anywhere near as tough a nut to crack as beating Rossi in the second year of MotoGP (as Stoner did). Jorge rode brilliantly last year and deserved the title more than anyone else. And whilst I agree that Rossi had nothing left to prove with Yamaha, I believe he still had as much challenge in remaining Lorenzo's teammate at Yamaha as riding on the already race winning Ducati. Either option, I think, is a strong challenge for him.

Well, I think Rossi is still the top dog, and given the right machinery, and in 100% health, would again be unbeatable. I think he has that X factor which probably Stoner and Lorenzo lack. All just my humble opinion. Also, the Ducati may be a race winner, but not a championship winning bike. So, Lorenzo is riding a championship winning M1, while Rossi is riding the 4th best bike of 2010, and that was in Casey Stoner's hands. If Rossi can beat Lorenzo riding a Ducati, which he very nearly did at Jerez, then that is definitely a much bigger challenge.

I think we definitely have two very different opinions Ninja. I think Rossi is still the best, you don't, let's just leave it at that. :D Great discussion though. :up: