Japan Earthquate 8.9 & Tsunami

[Malbec]

What evidence do you have that it doesn't.

And as I said, it is esoteric information, take it as you wish and if you decide to trash it, it is your choice.

Fine with me.
:s mokin:

You seem rather defensive.

I just find it rather tragic that 200 years after the Age of Enlightenment and the introduction of the Scientific Method a substantial part of our population still has medieval beliefs such as yours. Is this really progress?

[Bob Riebe]

I just find it rather tragic that 200 years after the Age of Enlightenment and the introduction of the Scientific Method a substantial part of our population still has medieval beliefs such as yours. Is this really progress?
Explain.

[Retro Formula 1]

What evidence do you have that it doesn't.

And as I said, it is esoteric information, take it as you wish and if you decide to trash it, it is your choice.

Fine with me.
:s mokin:

Race

I have always found you to be a reasonable member who is willing to look at both sides of an arguement before making judgements. What is it about this subject that has polarised you so much?

Nuclear has been dressed up as the big, bad bogey man by people that equate the word with the weapons that we all know and love so much but this has nothing to do with Nuclear power.

Then we have the death toll. Thousands upon Thousands of people have been killed in accidents drilling oil or mining Coal. Thousands more have perished by illnesses contracted through these occupations. Then we have the millions of people that have suffered diseases through pollution; increased cancer, Asthma and other respiratory illnesses. We cannot carry on doing this. I'm not talking about global warming but just go to a bust intersection in Manhatten and breath the fresh air for an hour.

If all of this doesn't convince you to take a fresh look at the subject with an open mind, then I will leave you one fact. Coal Power Stations produce up to 100 times the nuclear waste for the same amount of energy as a Nuclear Power Station. Yet the waste from a Nuclear power station is removed and disposed of safely where Radioactive Coal Ash is spewed into the atmosphere for you and your kids to breath in along with the other pollution created.

Please, please read this and give me your views.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=coal-ash-is-more-radioactive-than-nuclear-waste


or



Comparing radioactive waste to industrial toxic waste

In countries with nuclear power, radioactive wastes comprise less than 1% of total industrial toxic wastes, much of which remains hazardous indefinitely.[76] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power#cite_note-wna-wmitnfc-75) Overall, nuclear power produces far less waste material by volume than fossil-fuel based power plants. Coal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal)-burning plants are particularly noted for producing large amounts of toxic and mildly radioactive ash due to concentrating naturally occurring metals and mildly radioactive material from the coal. A recent report from Oak Ridge National Laboratory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oak_Ridge_National_Laboratory) concludes that coal power actually results in more radioactivity being released into the environment than nuclear power operation, and that the population effective dose (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effective_dose) equivalent from radiation from coal plants is 100 times as much as from ideal operation of nuclear plants.[92] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power#cite_note-colmain-91) Indeed, coal ash is much less radioactive than nuclear waste, but ash is released directly into the environment, whereas nuclear plants use shielding to protect the environment from the irradiated reactor vessel, fuel rods, and any radioactive waste on site.[93] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power#cite_note-cejournal-92)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power

or Oak Ridge?

http://www.ornl.gov/info/ornlreview/rev26-34/text/colmain.html

[ioan]

C'mon guys(or should I rather say girls? :p ) each of us has his/her way of seeing things and thinking about them.

What I find generally sad is that what most people do is trying to find ways to produce more energy (clean or less clean) and that the necessity of having more energy is very often used as an argument.
Using less electrical (and other kind of) energy is the way we all should go if we are to leave the future generations a planet to leave on, the only one that we certainly know it can host life as we know it!

[BDunnell]

What I find generally sad is that what most people do is trying to find ways to produce more energy (clean or less clean) and that the necessity of having more energy is very often used as an argument.
Using less electrical (and other kind of) energy is the way we all should go if we are to leave the future generations a planet to leave on, the only one that we certainly know it can host life as we know it!

And it saves money for the consumer as well.

[ioan]

And it saves money for the consumer as well.

And that's the problem, we leave in a world based on people spending (overspending) all their earnings! Saving money is not what they want us to do!
Nothing changed after the last crisis. :(

[BDunnell]

And that's the problem, we leave in a world based on people spending (overspending) all their earnings! Saving money is not what they want us to do!
Nothing changed after the last crisis. :(

Wait a few moments. I am sure we will both be accused of wanting to dictate how others spend their money...

[ioan]

Wait a few moments. I am sure we will both be accused of wanting to dictate how others spend their money...

Most probably! ;)

[Daniel]

Race

I have always found you to be a reasonable member who is willing to look at both sides of an arguement before making judgements. What is it about this subject that has polarised you so much?

Nuclear has been dressed up as the big, bad bogey man by people that equate the word with the weapons that we all know and love so much but this has nothing to do with Nuclear power.

Then we have the death toll. Thousands upon Thousands of people have been killed in accidents drilling oil or mining Coal. Thousands more have perished by illnesses contracted through these occupations. Then we have the millions of people that have suffered diseases through pollution; increased cancer, Asthma and other respiratory illnesses. We cannot carry on doing this. I'm not talking about global warming but just go to a bust intersection in Manhatten and breath the fresh air for an hour.

If all of this doesn't convince you to take a fresh look at the subject with an open mind, then I will leave you one fact. Coal Power Stations produce up to 100 times the nuclear waste for the same amount of energy as a Nuclear Power Station. Yet the waste from a Nuclear power station is removed and disposed of safely where Radioactive Coal Ash is spewed into the atmosphere for you and your kids to breath in along with the other pollution created.

Please, please read this and give me your views.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=coal-ash-is-more-radioactive-than-nuclear-waste


or



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power

or Oak Ridge?

http://www.ornl.gov/info/ornlreview/rev26-34/text/colmain.html

Did I not point this whole radioactive coal thing out days ago? Plus I also pointed out the comparitive death rates from coal, gas, nuclear, wind and solar power ;)

[Daniel]

And that's the problem, we leave in a world based on people spending (overspending) all their earnings! Saving money is not what they want us to do!
Nothing changed after the last crisis. :(

Well I've always maintained that the public were to blame for the credit crunch....

Watch this from about 2 minutes up to about 3:45 or so :D
4BII3VWfWTg

[Malbec]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/picturegalleries/worldnews/8401901/Japan-crisis-begins-to-stabilise-after-the-earthquake-and-tsunami.html?image=3

Incredible.

[Daniel]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/picturegalleries/worldnews/8401901/Japan-crisis-begins-to-stabilise-after-the-earthquake-and-tsunami.html?image=3

Incredible.

If this were some other country you'd say that was propaganda to make it look like things were getting back to normal when things were still majorly chaotic, but this is Japan and they're not like that :up:

[DexDexter]

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/04/12/us-japan-idUSTRE72A0SS20110412

Japan raised the severity of its nuclear crisis to the highest level on Tuesday, the severity is now 7 which is as high as Chernobyl. Oh And I was exaggerating things according to Daniel and Dylan H. Or was I?

[Malbec]

Japan raised the severity of its nuclear crisis to the highest level on Tuesday, the severity is now 7 which is as high as Chernobyl. Oh And I was exaggerating things according to Daniel and Dylan H. Or was I?

Yes you were.

The levels of radiation released hasn't changed and remain low and are getting lower. However I guess by definition there has been radiation release into the environment which is presumably why the crisis has been rerated as 7.

Here is a pretty comprehensive website with radiation levels at different areas in and around the plant since the earthquake

http://fleep.com/earthquake/

Here are the relative radiation levels you can expect from various sources

http://burritojustice.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/radiation.png

I think you can make your own mind up with the data presented there.

[DexDexter]

Yes you were.

The levels of radiation released hasn't changed and remain low and are getting lower. However I guess by definition there has been radiation release into the environment which is presumably why the crisis has been rerated as 7.

Here is a pretty comprehensive website with radiation levels at different areas in and around the plant since the earthquake

http://fleep.com/earthquake/

Here are the relative radiation levels you can expect from various sources

http://burritojustice.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/radiation.png




I think we all can agree that this is/was a very serious nuclear power plant incident, right? Not Chernobyl but serious.

I'm not against nuclear power BTW until we figure out better ways of producing electricity.

[Malbec]

I think we all can agree that this is/was a very serious nuclear power plant incident, right? Not Chernobyl but serious.

I don't think anyone on this thread has claimed otherwise. It was a serious incident regardless of whether its rated as a 5 or a 7. Its the hysteria surrounding the level of radiation released and its potential effect that I and other people have an issue with.

[race aficionado]

I don't think anyone on this thread has claimed otherwise. It was a serious incident regardless of whether its rated as a 5 or a 7. Its the hysteria surrounding the level of radiation released and its potential effect that I and other people have an issue with.

I'm no scientist . . . are you???
As a layman I can clearly see that the situation in Japan is seriously #@!*ed.

Too much hysteria? Property values around the plant have gone down considerably. If you rush you can get some beach front property for cheap. You will be glowing in no time but I advise you not to go for it. i don't know you and I don't want you to suffer the consequences of seriously damaging radiation exposure.

Let's face it. The situation in Japan is DIRE and should concern us all, and I don't say this hysterically.

[Malbec]

I'm no scientist . . . are you???
As a layman I can clearly see that the situation in Japan is seriously #@!*ed.

Too much hysteria? Property values around the plant have gone down considerably. If you rush you can get some beach front property for cheap. You will be glowing in no time but I advise you not to go for it. i don't know you and I don't want you to suffer the consequences of seriously damaging radiation exposure.

Let's face it. The situation in Japan is DIRE and should concern us all, and I don't say this hysterically.

You're not being hysterical but you use words like 'glowing in no time'???

I've read many of your posts before and I find them usually well laid out and argued. I'm really curious as to why you find this particular subject, radiation, so frightening?

Did you take a look at the links I posted? Did you calculate what the risks are of the radiation exposure in various places around the plant? IIRC you're a Bolivian but your profile states that you live in the US now. Have you looked at how much radiation you're exposed to every time you fly to and from your home country? Bolivia is one of the highest altitude countries in the world IIRC, have you considered how much extra radiation you'd have been exposed to thanks to the altitude for your entire life?

Because of the nuclear reactor problems at Fukushima some of the people living outside the exclusion zone are now exposed to as much radiation as you have been all your life. How scary does that feel? Unlike Bolivia however, the radiation levels around Fukushima will die away once the reactors are repaired.

How many people have died of and will die from radiation exposure thanks to the nuclear reactor problems at Fukushima? Just stop and think about that. The number right now is zero. In the future the number of increased deaths is likely to be just a handful amongst some of the nuclear workers working at the reactor.

FYI I'm a radiologist. I deal with radiation every day. I scan patients and map out tumours so that high intensity radiation of a level many magnitudes stronger than that seen at Chernobyl let alone Fukushima can be accurately targetted. I see the direct after effects of that radiation on the tumours and surrounding tissues years after.

I also have to carry out risk assessments on each patient before I accept any scan request involving radiation, again a CT scan uses many many times more radiation than the average person has been exposed to outside the plant. Radiation risk is something I deal with every day. If I get it wrong under UK law I can be charged with assault.

I also know that radiation exposure limits are set deliberately very very low. If speed limits were set the same way you'd be lucky to be allowed to do more than 10mph on a motorway.

Many of the workers have been exposed to levels of radiation that might increase their risk of cancer over their lifetime by a small amount, but that risk is such that if they were a smoker before the accidents and stopped smoking for the rest of their lives, the increased risk of getting cancer would be wiped out and end up lowered.

As for the general population? Forget it. The radiation they've been exposed to is so low that any medical effects will be so small as to be non-statistically significant.

You probably won't believe a word I said but the science and all the data is out there for you to peruse. You're an intelligent guy, look it up.

[Dave B]

That's an extremely well balanced post, Dylan, but I fear it may be wasted on some people. For them, "nuclear" is a dirty word and no amount of facts can change that view :\

[DexDexter]

The amount of radiation released from Fukushima is estimated to be 10% of that of Chernobyl.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/04/12/japan-severity-chernobyl-idUSTKE00635820110412

[Daniel]

That's an extremely well balanced post, Dylan, but I fear it may be wasted on some people. For them, "nuclear" is a dirty word and no amount of facts can change that view :\

Yep.

I meant to post this ages ago but it does put things into perspective.
http://imgs.xkcd.com/blag/radiation.png

Picture looks a bit screwy on the forum, best to right click and enlarge :)
http://xkcd.com/radiation/