Please Mikko, something different this time!! (an open letter)

[kirungi okwogera]

Good news then! He is only behind these 90s and 2000s drivers: Miki Biasion 17, Auriol 20, Kankkunen 23, Makinen 24, Mcrae 25, Sainz 26, Gronholm 30 (and Loeb of course!). All champions. Most are multiple champions! Champions have had many fewer too - Burns had only 10 wins you know... Blomqvist and Salonen both 11 wins, Munari 7 wins.

Oh and I stand corrected, Markku Alen was driver's champion after all, in 1978, so Hirvonen is the winningest driver ever not to win a championship! I guess it goes to show there's a right and wrong time to win rallies... Munari got the right time, Hirvonen definitely the wrong time! During the Loeb dynasty, even top-class drivers get only crumbs.

[leighton323]

It would very for interesting to see the win ratio compared to events, I believe Mikko may have a very low win percentage compared those other drivers you have mentioned, due to the the many more rounds in today's championship. Man reason to why Loeb has won so many more events is due to his win ratio. The ability to do more rounds doubled with the fact that he is so good. (isn't his ratio roughly 50%?)

[bluuford]

It would very for interesting to see the win ratio compared to events, I believe Mikko may have a very low win percentage compared those other drivers you have mentioned, due to the the many more rounds in today's championship. Man reason to why Loeb has won so many more events is due to his win ratio. The ability to do more rounds doubled with the fact that he is so good. (isn't his ratio roughly 50%?)
The numbers should be around that (by ewrc results) for the recent rally winners and champions.
Mikkos win ration is 11%
Loeb 46%
Grönholm 19.9%
Miki Biasion 18.2%
Mäkinen 18%
Sainz 13.5%
McRae 17.7%
Auriol 12.7%
Kankkunen 12.2%
Burns 9.7%
Solberg 7%
Latvala 6%

[MikeD]

The numbers should be around that (by ewrc results) for the recent rally winners and champions.
Mikkos win ration is 11%
Loeb 46%


Sorry, Bluuford but Loeb's win ratio is 49,7%. He has won 75 and participated in 151 in a WRC car.

[bluuford]

Sorry, Bluuford but Loeb's win ratio is 49,7%. He has won 75 and participated in 151 in a WRC car.

All ratios for all drivers are calculated according to their starts in Word Rally Championship. Sorry, I forgot to add it before. He has 163 starts in total.

[dimviii]

All ratios for all drivers are calculated according to their starts in Word Rally Championship. Sorry, I forgot to add it before. He has 163 starts in total.

aha, so calculates and the rallies with the saxo s1600 at jwrc

[Rallyper]

Good news then! He is only behind these 90s and 2000s drivers: Miki Biasion 17, Auriol 20, Kankkunen 23, Makinen 24, Mcrae 25, Sainz 26, Gronholm 30 (and Loeb of course!). All champions. Most are multiple champions! Champions have had many fewer too - Burns had only 10 wins you know... Blomqvist and Salonen both 11 wins, Munari 7 wins.

Oh and I stand corrected, Markku Alen was driver's champion after all, in 1978, so Hirvonen is the winningest driver ever not to win a championship! I guess it goes to show there's a right and wrong time to win rallies... Munari got the right time, Hirvonen definitely the wrong time! During the Loeb dynasty, even top-class drivers get only crumbs.

Alen title in 1978 wasn´t officially. First official WDC was in 79 and Waldegard was champion.

[kirungi okwogera]

Alen title in 1978 wasn´t officially. First official WDC was in 79 and Waldegard was champion.
Ah, that's what I thought at first - Jonkka's site led me astray! It lists WDC from 77 on, with Munari and Alen in '77 and '78.

Yes, Hirvonen hasn't got a great win ratio, but it is not much worse than most others. Kankkunen had like a four year span between wins once.

juwra.com has win ratios based only on WRC results even if the driver in question was in a s1600 or production car, but it'd be interesting to see a full win ratio across championships (i.e. Loeb's Saxo wins, JWRC wins, PWRC guys' wins). The overall ratio disadvantages drivers who worked support championships in slower cars for longer than the average. Not that that applies too much to Hirvonen, but for example, he has a year as a privateer which Loeb has never had and many of the other champions didn't have.

Anyway, Hirvonen has an awful lot of runner-up positions to Loeb, probably more than anybody (I think I actually calculated that in a previous post somewhere here...), which should remind you that his win ratio is what it is as a function of when he has had his career, as I was saying! I'm glad and privileged to have seen Loeb's era but Mikko's results and placing in history have been negatively impacted for sure.

[dimviii]

juwra.com has win ratios based only on WRC results even if the driver in question was in a s1600 or production car, but it'd be interesting to see a full win ratio across championships (i.e. Loeb's Saxo wins, JWRC wins, PWRC guys' wins). The overall ratio disadvantages drivers who worked support championships in slower cars for longer than the average. Not that that applies too much to Hirvonen, but for example, he has a year as a privateer which Loeb has never had and many of the other champions didn't have.

but Mikko's results and placing in history have been negatively impacted for sure.

Loeb had entered at a whole year at wrc with s1600 saxo,and remember another rally with corolla wrc.So in not only Mikko is disadvantage from the ratio wins/entrants at wrc rallies.

[kirungi okwogera]

Loeb had entered at a whole year at wrc with s1600 saxo,and remember another rally with corolla wrc.So in not only Mikko is disadvantage from the ratio wins/entrants at wrc rallies.
Yeah, I just mean that having your career at the same time as a guy with a win ratio twice as good as any of the other "mortals" who are still known as legends themselves, gives your own successes a bit less colour to stand out.

[Tom206wrc]

All in all it was a very good season for Mikko Hirvonen...hard to end better than 2nd in drivers standing :cool:
I hope in 2013 it'll be even better :bounce:

[Kielder]

Next season is truly the moment for something different, I mean to win the title. It seems that it will be next year or never. He is driving the best car. Despite the dozens of tests, Polo's youth should be a problem for the consistency of Ogier and the speed of Latvala, which won't last more than a year.
Even Loeb needed to lose a Championship in the last rally of the Championship before starting his immaculate career. Mikko, who tasted that twice, deserves to be more than the driver with more wins without a Championship. If he doesn't become World Champion next year, his main achievement will be to reach Alen in that classification (on the other hand an impossible dream for most of the drivers who are currently driving in the WRC).

[Tom206wrc]

Even inside Citroën Racing, Dani Sordo could be a threat for Mikko :confused:

[Francis44]

If Sordo gets to do all rounds, I suspect Hirvonen biggest opposition will be his team mate.

There are a couple of rally's in the begginig of the year that go Sordo way ( Monte-Carlo, Portugal).

[A.F.F.]

Even inside Citroën Racing, Dani Sordo could be a threat for Mikko :confused:

Not could but he IS !

[COD]

Time to bring this one up again. Because he is as disapointing as before. How many rallies, before Sordo is no 1 and Mikko where he belongs, no 2 (if he desrves even that). I would say after 4tb round he is demoted to no2.

[A.F.F.]

I have to agree. This year he has no excuses not to push. The problem is that he can't. Soon folks have to believe that Mikko is second driver material novadays unable to push the limit. However, his career as second driver of the team may continue long as he is very reliable point-picker.

[Mintexmemory]

I have to agree. This year he has no excuses not to push. The problem is that he can't. Soon folks have to believe that Mikko is second driver material novadays unable to push the limit. However, his career as second driver of the team may continue long as he is very reliable point-picker.

As a neutral observer the gradual loss of agression / will to win has been clear over the last 2 years. To win championships you have to win rallies on the days when your competitors don't retire. Ogier and Latvala can do this, Hirvonen doesn't anymore.

[T.Maanteiden kuningas]

And if Mikko wins, Citroen ****ed up everything, wrong parts, wrong holes in wrong places etc. :)

[A FONDO]

I have to agree. This year he has no excuses not to push. The problem is that he can't. Soon folks have to believe that Mikko is second driver material novadays unable to push the limit. However, his career as second driver of the team may continue long as he is very reliable point-picker.
Middle class driver with vast experience. Valuable with 2 teams only, but with 4 from next year he will rarely collect two-cypher number of points.

As a neutral observer the gradual loss of agression / will to win has been clear over the last 2 years. To win championships you have to win rallies on the days when your competitors don't retire. Ogier and Latvala can do this, Hirvonen doesn't anymore.
He was not much able for it before, too. It was just that the WRC league was too poor after Gronholm retired. His two title chances in 2009 and 2011 arose after Loeb crashed several times continuously.

[Tom206wrc]

I'm also disappointed by Mikko's performance so far in Monte-Carlo :mark:
At the opposite, very glad to see Dani's performance whereas he discovers new car in race conditions :)

But hey...rally is still very long to go, and even another final podium for Hirvonen is still hopeful :p :

[tfp]

I'm also disappointed by Mikko's performance so far in Monte-Carlo :mark:
At the opposite, very glad to see Dani's performance whereas he discovers new car in race conditions :)

But hey...rally is still very long to go, and even another final podium for Hirvonen is still hopeful :p :

If Mikko gets a podium in Monte, could we call this a "tarmac" rally? Mikko could score a podium finish on a gravel rally in a 3 cylinder shopping trolley, but a podium on tarmac? Thats more like a gold medal :)

[TyPat107]

Mikko just doesn't seem to have the fight in my opinion anymore. It appears to be his job now and no longer his passion. What are the chances he will retire if he doesn't win the championship?

[Langdale Forest]

. His two title chances in 2009 and 2011 arose after Loeb crashed several times continuously.

And because of team orders....

[Mintexmemory]

And because of team orders....

Though to be fair Loeb was the beneficiary of team orders too (robbing DS of the Catalunya win in 2009 and causing the whole Seb schism in 2011)

[Plan9]

Have a bit of faith, don't forget in 2012 he had virtually a 100% finishing rate. Mikko will get the title this year; but he will take the slower route.

[Tom206wrc]

Today for the last leg of Monte-Carlo weather forecasts go for lots of snow...if the terrain is fully covered of snow everywhere like in Sweden, I hope Mikko will strongly improve his driving :rolleyes:

[Tom206wrc]

...
But hey...rally is still very long to go, and even another final podium for Hirvonen is still hopeful :p :


I must admit I was far from thinking Hirvonen would be already 4th overall after today's SS15 :eek:
3 stages left to go ;)

[tmx]

Well, we can say it already: Mikko Hirvonen - 2013 World Rally Champion!

... sounds good :)

Loeb will win all 4 rallies, then decide to do two more, win them also and win the title for the 10th time. Unfortunately. But Mikko's consistency might help him in the battle against Ogier. Not sure how having two 'alpha drivers' in Volkswagon will pan out, I don't think neither will give way to each other.

[Miika]

Definitely something different this time..

[Mintexmemory]

Definitely something different this time..

Apparently not!

[Mise]

Apparently not!

You have missed the point.

This is different compairing to the normal "cruising to finnish 4th."

It's hard to be Mikko fan, but he will win Mexico. :s mokin:

[Tom206wrc]

OUCH !!! What have you done MIKKO ???? All that time lost in a snow wall on SS2 in Sweden... ;(

[Mintexmemory]

You have missed the point.

This is different compairing to the normal "cruising to finnish 4th."

It's hard to be Mikko fan, but he will win Mexico. :s mokin:
No I took your point but whether crashing or cruising the poor guy just appears not to be able to produce a competitive drive. He's being beaten on snow by Ogier!
As for Mexico do you think for one moment that VW haven't got high altitude running for their engine perfect? If Ogier is quicker on Snow how much quicker is he going to be on gravel?

[stefanvv]

No I took your point but whether crashing or cruising the poor guy just appears not to be able to produce a competitive drive. He's being beaten on snow by Ogier!
As for Mexico do you think for one moment that VW haven't got high altitude running for their engine perfect? If Ogier is quicker on Snow how much quicker is he going to be on gravel?

That was December test for

[Kielder]

:rolleyes:

A distraught Hirvonen told MAXRALLY in Hagfors: “Technically, it was the most beautiful roll ever – I think the mechanics will thank me for this, there is no damage at all!
Hirvonen’s co-driver Jarmo Lehtinen added: “When we got out of the car, the snow was right up to the waist. We had to dig and dig all of the time. In the end about seven people came, but we had only one spade, so we were taking it in turns.”

MAXRALLY - The beautiful roll (http://www.maxrally.com/2013/02/08/the-beautiful-roll)

[Mise]

No I took your point but whether crashing or cruising the poor guy just appears not to be able to produce a competitive drive. He's being beaten on snow by Ogier!
As for Mexico do you think for one moment that VW haven't got high altitude running for their engine perfect? If Ogier is quicker on Snow how much quicker is he going to be on gravel?

The Mexicio win was a joke.
I think Hirvonen has now "the Petter winning pace" aka no wins in 7 seasons.
And I'm afraid Ogier has "the Loeb winning pace" aka taking 9 concecutive titles.

Liked to be wrong on both of the above.

[Mintexmemory]

The Mexicio win was a joke.
I think Hirvonen has now "the Petter winning pace" aka no wins in 7 seasons.
And I'm afraid Ogier has "the Loeb winning pace" aka taking 9 concecutive titles.
Liked to be wrong on both of the above.

:up: I'm afraid that you are right on the first point and share your hope for the second - I'm looking forward to a period of close competition between 6 or 7 drivers but it looks ominous in terms of the VW performance

[xavier]

The Mexicio win was a joke.
I think Hirvonen has now "the Petter winning pace" aka no wins in 7 seasons.
And I'm afraid Ogier has "the Loeb winning pace" aka taking 9 concecutive titles.

Liked to be wrong on both of the above.

I am afraid the future will prove you right. I wish Mikko could give Ogier a good fight.
I am still heart broken that we will never have Seb L. vs. Seb O. in 2 different teams. If Ogier become WC, the fact to have never beat Loeb on a season will be always lesser his achievement.

[A FONDO]

If Ogier become WC, the fact to have never beat Loeb on a season will be always lesser his achievement.

What is Ogier's fault that Loeb runs away like a coward? What lesser achievment are you talking about when Loeb's last 5 titles are totally meaningless and he almost lost 2 of them from nothing?

[stefanvv]

http://image.redbull.com/rbcom/0010/1/1600/1066/001/118/879/99357_Hirvonen2013MC176.jpg

[kirungi okwogera]

What is Ogier's fault that Loeb runs away like a coward? What lesser achievment are you talking about when Loeb's last 5 titles are totally meaningless and he almost lost 2 of them from nothing?
I understand completely the feeling of disliking Loeb and his accomplishments for having made the competition boring. But he made the competition boring by being the absolute best bar none for a decade. You say five titles don't count. Why? Because the competition was not as good as him? That's logical.

And calling him a coward running away makes you look even more senseless and illogical about Loeb. This isn't boxing. It's racing. There will always be a new competitor. By your conditions Ogier is a coward not to face Paolo Nobre and Daniel Oliveira last year. And Ogier is obviously a huge wimp not to ever compete with Gronholm, Makinen, Sainz, McRae and all the champions Loeb fought with and beat. So any championships Ogier ever wins will also "mean nothing" because he didn't have a one-on-one fight with every good driver you can think of in the WRC, past and future. And what if Ogier retires before facing a full season against whoever becomes champion later? Does that make him weak and his accomplishment meaningless?

Sorry to go offtopic but seriously, you can dislike Loeb for what the sport became while he reigned but you will never convince anyone that Loeb isn't the best driver of the past decade. Accepting that doesn't mean you have to like him!

To bring Hirvonen into this, I personally still think he has a decent chance to fight Ogier. I certainly hope so to prevent another multi-year domination. Some real fights are always good.

[6789]

Who else thinks 2013 could be a repeat of 2010 for Mikko. Pushing to hard and crashing or just not on the pace? Should be interesting come Mexico

[A FONDO]

By your conditions Ogier is a coward not to face Paolo Nobre and Daniel Oliveira last year.
He didnt face them because he is MAN with BALLS and left the Citroen liars at the end of 2011.


what if Ogier retires before facing a full season against whoever becomes champion later? Does that make him weak and his accomplishment meaningless?
We will think about it when that time comes.


Sorry to go offtopic but seriously, you can dislike Loeb for what the sport became while he reigned but you will never convince anyone that Loeb isn't the best driver of the past decade. Accepting that doesn't mean you have to like him!
The best driver in a factory team of the past decade - of course I agree with this. And I never said he ruined anything!!


I certainly hope so to prevent another multi-year domination. Some real fights are always good.
I hope even stronger than you to see different winner at every rally and 3-4 drivers in less than a minute in the final overalls!

[Plan9]

Who else thinks 2013 could be a repeat of 2010 for Mikko. Pushing to hard and crashing or just not on the pace? Should be interesting come Mexico

Wait till Mexico to make a proper judgement but it looks like Mikko is trying too hard. I have been blown away by the Polo-Ogier combination, if Ogier wins Mexico I would suggest we are looking at a period of domination again.

[denkimi]

I understand completely the feeling of disliking Loeb and his accomplishments for having made the competition boring. But he made the competition boring by being the absolute best bar none for a decade. You say five titles don't count. Why? Because the competition was not as good as him? That's logical.

And calling him a coward running away makes you look even more senseless and illogical about Loeb. This isn't boxing. It's racing. There will always be a new competitor. By your conditions Ogier is a coward not to face Paolo Nobre and Daniel Oliveira last year. And Ogier is obviously a huge wimp not to ever compete with Gronholm, Makinen, Sainz, McRae and all the champions Loeb fought with and beat. So any championships Ogier ever wins will also "mean nothing" because he didn't have a one-on-one fight with every good driver you can think of in the WRC, past and future. And what if Ogier retires before facing a full season against whoever becomes champion later? Does that make him weak and his accomplishment meaningless?

Sorry to go offtopic but seriously, you can dislike Loeb for what the sport became while he reigned but you will never convince anyone that Loeb isn't the best driver of the past decade. Accepting that doesn't mean you have to like him!

To bring Hirvonen into this, I personally still think he has a decent chance to fight Ogier. I certainly hope so to prevent another multi-year domination. Some real fights are always good.

Loeb is not a coward because he's retiring, nobody can go on forever. he's a coward because of the events in the citroen team in 2011. he showed back then, that he can't handle a team mate who's just as quick or perhaps even quicker. instead of trying to beat him fair and square, he just enforced teamorders and kicked him out of the team.

[awake27]

Loeb is not a coward because he's retiring, nobody can go on forever. he's a coward because of the events in the citroen team in 2011. he showed back then, that he can't handle a team mate who's just as quick or perhaps even quicker. instead of trying to beat him fair and square, he just enforced teamorders and kicked him out of the team.
It was the coward Loeb of 1-Sweden, 2-Mexico, 3-Portugal, 4-Jordan, 5-Sardegna, 6-Argentina or the coward Ogier (with the help of Quesnel and Smeets who is in VW now) of 7-Acropolis that shuted down the tracking in the night stage and lied afterwards in public that he didn't do any tactic? When you abuse the internal line of competition to splitting completely the team to factions, be prepared some of the two will be ousted (Allen-Rohl-Fiat, Senna-Prost-McLaren, McRae-Sainz-Subaru, Alonso-Hamilton-McLaren). As eventually happened they all three got kicked out at the end of the year.

[dimviii]

It was the coward Loeb of 1-Sweden, 2-Mexico, 3-Portugal, 4-Jordan, 5-Sardegna, 6-Argentina or the coward Ogier (with the help of Quesnel and Smeets who is in VW now) of 7-Acropolis that shuted down the tracking in the night stage and lied afterwards in public that he didn't do any tactic? When you abuse the internal line of competition to splitting completely the team to factions, be prepared some of the two will be ousted (Allen-Rohl-Fiat, Senna-Prost-McLaren, McRae-Sainz-Subaru, Alonso-Hamilton-McLaren). As eventually happened they all three got kicked out at the end of the year.

dont bother with antiLoeb people. ;)

[COD]

Well well, even with clever tactical move Mikko couldn't take points on the PS in Sweden. Tells all about his pace. Lots of 4th place's in gravel this year, on tarmac not even that...

[MAXLD]

Indeed, is already looking to be a troubled year to Mikko... but specially for Citroen.

In my opinion, they crucially failed (or were "unlucky") in 2 specific time frames:
- Loeb/Ogier: if they had kept Ogier, he would now take Loeb's place and continue to provide Citroen a consistent winning form... but Loeb wasn't retiring yet and Ogier mentality isn't the one to settle down and wait.
- Loeb retirement/replacement: when they finally had to find a replacement there wasn't anyone fast and stable enough... so they had to play safe and make a "points gatherer" team for both driver's and manufacturer's championship, Mikko for consistency points on snow and gravel and Sordo for filling the gap on tarmac. I have a hard time to believe that Citroen thought Mikko was a fast driver to dominate and win a lot of rallies (or maybe they thought their car was so much better, that they could still reign).

The major problem is that Mikko isn't providing what is at least expected of him: points and podium places, and that is quite a problem, considering his vast experience in WRC and expertise in snowy conditions (these should be good events for good points). He spent all weekend saying we was betting all-in for Power Stage, for those points, and he didn't even get one, not even with tactics. I bet team confidence isn't very high at this moment. Loeb saved the day/weekend for the team and diverged attentions from the disaster weekend for both official drivers... and even Seb wasn't perfect and able to react to Ogier's massive determination.

It's only the second round of the championship, maybe things get a bit different later on, but I think this year will be Yves Matton constantly "facepalming", instead of Malcolm Wilson(who will actually be glad to have gambled on new drivers who are looking good so far for points and wins).

[stefanvv]

but Loeb wasn't retiring yet and Ogier mentality isn't the one to settle down and wait.

2012 was exactly what he did after all. Just to explode this one. But on topic, Hirvonen isn't winning material imho. His only chance is this year in condition Polo is way behind pace of Citroen as most of the world believed not far long. After what we saw what happened here in Sweden, hard times are wating for him and Citroen.

[Sprocket]

For me, Mikko just has to win Mexico! I've been waiting long enough for his championship year.

Nobody get me wrong I like Ogier, but am I the only one remembering him going out time after time when leading ralllies in the past? That may be over now, it may have been a lot to do with his psychological state at Citroen, it may though be as I suspect that Ogier has an issue with keeping on the road when controlling the pace from the front. When he gets it right you get results like Sweden, but in the past he did that sometimes, other times not. In all though I'm waiting for Mexico before feeling that the Driver's Championship 2013 is already decided. :)

[GritPics]

For me, Mikko just has to win Mexico! I've been waiting long enough for his championship year.

Nobody get me wrong I like Ogier, but am I the only one remembering him going out time after time when leading ralllies in the past? That may be over now, it may have been a lot to do with his psychological state at Citroen, it may though be as I suspect that Ogier has an issue with keeping on the road when controlling the pace from the front. When he gets it right you get results like Sweden, but in the past he did that sometimes, other times not. In all though I'm waiting for Mexico before feeling that the Driver's Championship 2013 is already decided. :)

I completely agree, I think in Mexico we will see where the championship contenders lie.

Ostberg has potential this year and so too Mikko, I just hope that they can take the fight to Oiger if the VW is as quick as it has been already.

[Barreis]

Mikko Hirvonen certain Rally Mexico will bring better form - WRC news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/105787)

[seb_sh]

To me the next two rallies will reveal if Mikko can fight for this championship. I tend to doubt it but I will wait until after these two. If Ogier beats him in both and shows the ability to control himself then it looks bad for Mikko in my opinion.

[Barreis]

Game over.

[stefanvv]

Hirvonen: Mexico win not 'a matter of life or death' | WRC News | Feb 2013 | Crash.Net (http://www.crash.net/world+rally/news/188491/1/hirvonen_mexico_win_not_a_matter_of_life_or_death. html)

[Doon]

He can say what he likes, Ogier will punish him all year long regardless.

[alleskids]

For me, Mikko just has to win Mexico! I've been waiting long enough for his championship year.

Nobody get me wrong I like Ogier, but am I the only one remembering him going out time after time when leading ralllies in the past? That may be over now, it may have been a lot to do with his psychological state at Citroen, it may though be as I suspect that Ogier has an issue with keeping on the road when controlling the pace from the front. When he gets it right you get results like Sweden, but in the past he did that sometimes, other times not. In all though I'm waiting for Mexico before feeling that the Driver's Championship 2013 is already decided. :)

maybe it is/was the same Loeb factor that crushed Duval, driving over the limit to menthal madness to show they are equal to Loeb. Ogier has now the guarentee that the team supports him fully, so he can stay within his limit

[RAS007]

Hirvonen: Mexico win not 'a matter of life or death' | WRC News | Feb 2013 | Crash.Net (http://www.crash.net/world+rally/news/188491/1/hirvonen_mexico_win_not_a_matter_of_life_or_death. html)


He is really starting to feel the pressure. I feel bad for him to a certain extent; I don't feel that he is a natural number 1 driver, yet here he is, not only in that position, but trying to fill the shoes of one of the best drivers of all time. It also appears that Citroen themselves are beginning to realise that they may have made a mistake.

[Sprocket]

maybe it is/was the same Loeb factor that crushed Duval, driving over the limit to menthal madness to show they are equal to Loeb. Ogier has now the guarentee that the team supports him fully, so he can stay within his limit

You could be right, the 'new' Ogier, as we are now seeing driving for VW, does seem a different man, controlled and calm at the front. Deep down I'm expecting Ogier to run away with the drivers title. My heart though wants to see a fight this season to the end and Mikko up there in the mix. If the sport ends up dominated by one driver one manufacturer for the next 5 or so years, it seems to me nobody wins!

[Plan9]

I agree Sprocket. This is the first season since about 2004/5 that we could have a genuine fight for the title. My gut tells me that VW will be dominant for the few years but I want them not to have it all their own way this year. I am just not sure who in the current field could do that. I do not want to see a 'procession of drivers' following a Sebastien like we have seen in recent years.

[A.F.F.]

I also agree with Sprocket. The marks of the future season are worrying and I honestly have to admit I didn't expect Ogier to be this strong. I hoped for a good season competingwise but it may be that it'll only happen in tarmac rallies where Sordo is the one to put pressure to Ogier. Of course this is the start of the season and the old wisdom say anything can happen in rallying. But if we be realistic, the fire in Mikko's eyes has faded away and with the attitude he has, is not the one to challange Ogier who is overly confident with the biggest balls right this moment. I only hope Jari-Matti will find a suitable setting to Polo and drive for the win. Or Östberg or any other for that matter. Otherwise this could be another "dull" season and nothing has really changed.

[COD]

Wholly cow, now he said in the public that he was happy with his driving in Mexico? WTF, he loses over three minutes and is HAPPY? And thinks its the car? Come on, the fault is between the steeringwheel and the seat.

[Mintexmemory]

Actually the factor everyone is overlooking, and that I suspect is the reality, is that VW have perfected the engine management for altitude and the car was just so superior in speed that Ogier was quick and had something to spare. JML did a damn good set of times as a sweeper too.

[Sprocket]

Actually the factor everyone is overlooking, and that I suspect is the reality, is that VW have perfected the engine management for altitude and the car was just so superior in speed that Ogier was quick and had something to spare. JML did a damn good set of times as a sweeper too.

Not a point I missed, I did wonder if things would be more even in Portugal, then I remembered Sweden.

Whatever it is I've no doubt the VW is just faster than either Fiesta or Citroen. Not sure about the JML times, I was watching the splits and I do not think he was faster than Hirvonen. Not much sweeping either, he swapped position to test mid-field, times were about the same apart from stages where Hirovonen obviously backed off for tactical reasons. I end up with thinking the VW is fast, but Ogier is the man to drive it this season.

[COD]

Another pathetic performance from Mikko in Greece. Ok, sme problems, but not a single proper time.

What would it take to convince Loeb to replace Mikko for the rest of the season?

[A FONDO]

Another pathetic performance from Mikko in Greece. Ok, sme problems, but not a single proper time.
True.

What would it take to convince Loeb to replace Mikko for the rest of the season?
Ogier's absence.

[Mintexmemory]

True.

Ogier's absence.
This is getting close to the SL vs.... thread and not so much about Mikko :) ...but then there isn't much left to say. Maybe a poll on whether this thread should be closed?

[tommeke_B]

This is getting close to the SL vs.... thread and not so much about Mikko :) ...but then there isn't much left to say. Maybe a poll on whether this thread should be closed?

No need to close topics like these I think, at the end of the season some member will still have the need to express their disappointment about his pace. :D

[Mintexmemory]

No need to close topics like these I think, at the end of the season some member will still have the need to express their disappointment about his pace. :D
But the essential plea in the title of the thread has been sufficiently answered. Yes there is something different - just when you think he can't appear less motivated he finds a new depths of non-competitiveness. It is clearly a matter of psychology. He is not treated as a No1 by Citroen who always have Couilles d'Ors waiting in the wings. He knows he will be second to Sordo on tarmac and he doesn't have the mental drive to take Ogier or Latvala on (even to set a fastest stage when he has nothing else at stake). Contrast JMLs performance - performed better than Petter and improved his tarmac driving last year with Ford. Steps into a team that has an established clear centre of attention (if supposedly joint No 1). So he gets his head down, learns to adapt to the car, gets podiums and fastest stages and then takes his chance when it comes. Citroen would be better going for Tidemand or Lappi -if they choose to stay in rallying.

[stefanvv]

It is strange he has so poor performance in Acropolis 2 consecutive years as he won it in 2009 (well Loeb wasn't there :) ), but was the rest competition so poor back then, or he has just lost any ambition to fight on tough Rallies :confused:

[RS]

Contrast JMLs performance - performed better than Petter and improved his tarmac driving last year with Ford. Steps into a team that has an established clear centre of attention (if supposedly joint No 1). So he gets his head down, learns to adapt to the car, gets podiums and fastest stages and then takes his chance when it comes. Citroen would be better going for Tidemand or Lappi -if they choose to stay in rallying.

I think you're overestimating Latvala there. Without Ogier's problem he would in all likelihood have been beaten again this weekend. He also trailed Petter most of last year IIRC despite having clear no.1 status.

Maybe this win will help with his confidence but if this year has proven one thing so far it is that the Ford wasn't as bad as most of us thought it was.

[Mintexmemory]

I think you're overestimating Latvala there. Without Ogier's problem he would in all likelihood have been beaten again this weekend. He also trailed Petter most of last year IIRC despite having clear no.1 status.

Maybe this win will help with his confidence but if this year has proven one thing so far it is that the Ford wasn't as bad as most of us thought it was.

I don't think I am over-estimating JML but that isn't the point in question. Are we talking about the Ford that always seems to break when pushed to competitive times (punctures notwithstanding).
As for JML trailing Petter World Rally Championship - Results (http://www.wrc.com/results/2012/championship-standings/) shows 2 wins for Latvala, Petter only scoring one second place in 2012. 154 /124 points total - am I missing something?

[stefanvv]

I don't think I am over-estimating JML but that isn't the point in question. Are we talking about the Ford that always seems to break when pushed to competitive times (punctures notwithstanding).
As for JML trailing Petter World Rally Championship - Results (http://www.wrc.com/results/2012/championship-standings/) shows 2 wins for Latvala, Petter only scoring one second place in 2012. 154 /124 points total - am I missing something?

You are missing the 1st half of the season when Solberg had more points, but still Latvala had 1 win there

[RS]

I don't think I am over-estimating JML but that isn't the point in question. Are we talking about the Ford that always seems to break when pushed to competitive times (punctures notwithstanding).
As for JML trailing Petter World Rally Championship - Results (http://www.wrc.com/results/2012/championship-standings/) shows 2 wins for Latvala, Petter only scoring one second place in 2012. 154 /124 points total - am I missing something?

Yes, until the last few events when Petter went off the boil Latvala was behind in the standings. Sure the results are counted at the end of the year but I think a clear no.1 should have been ahead for most of the year.

Anyhow, I agree with your main point that if Citroen stick around they are going to need to improve their driver line up.

[A.F.F.]

Please don't close my thread. Mikko might have a great future as a second driver for some new team where his perfect cruising skills are needed. Plus, he is statistically closing the point where he might win when all the others have problems.

[A.F.F.]

Btw... completely off-topic, why wouldn't Lappi and Tidemand stay in rallying?

[EightGear]

Btw... completely off-topic, why wouldn't Lappi and Tidemand stay in rallying?

He meant Citroën. ;)

[Mintexmemory]

He meant Citroën. ;)

:up: Which is why I put the hyphen in my last sentence

Fear not AFF, your thread is safe and can easily be converted to Rallycross discussions at some time in the future. (I was only joking in my original post, a thread doesn't get closed unless there is no activity for a couple of years or postings become abusive.)

[Vaggelis27]

I can't see mikko as the first driver and petter can't have a seat in WRC.

[RS]

I would rather see Hanninen in this seat than Hirvonen. I genuinely feel that given a bit of time and the opportunities of being a full works driver he would be able to offer some more inspired performances.

[Vaggelis27]

I would rather see Hanninen in this seat than Hirvonen. I genuinely feel that given a bit of time and the opportunities of being a full works driver he would be able to offer some more inspired performances.
I agree with u!Maybe will drive i20 next year?!We lost him suddenly.

[Rallyper]

I would rather see Hanninen in this seat than Hirvonen. I genuinely feel that given a bit of time and the opportunities of being a full works driver he would be able to offer some more inspired performances.

Hanninen isn´t fast enough.

Whatever you say, we need those famous names like Mikko (maybe best as #2 driver in team) and Petter back in WRC because what WRC needs isn´t new format only as big competition as possible. That´s why we need drivers capapble of winning stages and podiumplaces. The more the better.

I guess as a swede that both PG and Tidemand are faster than Hanninen in 9 out of ten rallies... ;)

[RS]

I guess as a swede that both PG and Tidemand are faster than Hanninen in 9 out of ten rallies... ;)

I guess by adding the wink you mean that you don't even believe that yourself right?

You say that we need famous names like Mikko to offer "big competition" but Mikko doesn't seem to be doing the business right now does he?

[Vaggelis27]

I guess as a swede that both PG and Tidemand are faster than Hanninen in 9 out of ten rallies... ;)
I don't think PG is faster but Tidemand is for sure!

[EightGear]

I don't think PG is faster but Tidemand is for sure!

Just because he was fast in Sweden? Come on...

[Rallyper]

Well, I insist they both are faster than Hanninen. Even if I wasn´t a swede. Better so? It will be proven in the future.

[Vaggelis27]

He showed the speed that he has in acropolis rally and in portugal.

[EightGear]

He showed the speed that he has in acropolis rally and in portugal.


Yes, in a Fiesta R2....

Tidemand has a lot of potential, but to say he is faster than Hanninen at this moment is impossible because you can't compare them at all.

[A.F.F.]

He meant Citroën. ;)

My mistake :)

[A.F.F.]

Please don't close my thread. Mikko might have a great future as a second driver for some new team where his perfect cruising skills are needed. Plus, he is statistically closing the point where he might win when all the others have problems.

I'm amazed how folks here didn't take this sadness from my post. Yes, every word I wrote is true but how sad is it indeed. After Acropolis it hit how deep WRC swim right now. Even though we wouldn't have Ogier winning every event, WRC would still suck!! Why? Because we don't have decent drivers anymore ( apart from Ogier and maybe Latvala.). WRC does not have any credibility left :mark:

And btw, I have to disagree with RS. Hänninen isn't a rainmaker. He simply just don't have what it takes.

[dimviii]

I'm amazed how folks here didn't take this sadness from my post. Yes, every word I wrote is true but how sad is it indeed. After Acropolis it hit how deep WRC swim right now. Even though we wouldn't have Ogier winning every event, WRC would still suck!! Why? Because we don't have decent drivers anymore ( apart from Ogier and maybe Latvala.). WRC does not have any credibility left :mark:
.
very true.

[tommeke_B]

Well, in the previous 5 years, you can hardly tell that there were many opportunities for young talented drivers... The condition of the WRC (especially from 2008 to 2011) was not really encouraging for the young talented driver. Not even talking about the economical situation... ;) From the "top" drivers we see in the WRC now, how many have made it without personal (like family) sponsorship? From the last years, I could say Loeb, Ogier and Neuville. For the rest? Drivers like Ostberg, Novikov and Mikkelsen are where they are (partly) because of the wealth of their families. Which does not mean that they don't deserve to be where they are, but for sure it helped them...

[A.F.F.]

WRC has made itself so expensive that even the manufacturers have hard time running the teams. Prodrive had a noble thought of selling Minis for privateers but who has money to purchase them??

I've said it myself that it is useless to squeeze your cheeks when you've already crapped your pants BUT, WRC had an opprotunity to sweep the table for once and give everyone a chance to be equal, for at least a short period of time. WRC had the chance to move to S2000 machinery. Manufacturers were interested, heck, even Dacia build a prototype. But did they choose it? Nooo. We might have had privateers there in top three in rallyes they favor, we might have had young talnets by dozens. Fcuk, we might have had GOOD rallying.

To keep this in the topic, the sad thing is that Mikko doesn't seem to have a chance to challenge even team Ford, which should level -B drivers :mark:

[MJW]

I predict that Mikko will be in either of the Rallycross series next year, hopefully the ERX not the parking lot with jumps version favoured by the global (usa) version.

[TyPat107]

I predict that Mikko will be in either of the Rallycross series next year, hopefully the ERX not the parking lot with jumps version favoured by the global (usa) version.

He's lacking the fight to do well in rallycross I believe.

[MJW]

He's lacking the fight to do well in rallycross I believe.

Ok, I haven't said anything up to now, but how many north europeans have fitted into PSA group? Marcus but that was a long time ago. Richard Burns snd Colin McRae didnt 'fit in'. If you are early in a rally week, just take s look at recce, Mikko is not in convoy with the other Citroen guys, he doesnt eat at the same time as the others. I think Mikko doesnt want to be there anymore. And I do think that a rallycross future would be good. A two car Citroen team with Petter would be good, give the Hansen Team a challenge.

[tommeke_B]

Ok, I haven't said anything up to now, but how many north europeans have fitted into PSA group? Marcus but that was a long time ago. Richard Burns snd Colin McRae didnt 'fit in'. If you are early in a rally week, just take s look at recce, Mikko is not in convoy with the other Citroen guys, he doesnt eat at the same time as the others. I think Mikko doesnt want to be there anymore. And I do think that a rallycross future would be good. A two car Citroen team with Petter would be good, give the Hansen Team a challenge.
I don't understand anything from this post... :D North-European drivers at PSA were Gronholm, Rovanpera, Radstrom and Hirvonen. I don't think anyone has been disadvantaged from the team... Also what's the connection between "North Europeans have never fitted into PSA group" and Burns and McRae (who are obviously not North-European)? About Mikko/RECCE... In recce Loeb/Ogier(/Sordo?) are known of always being first drivers on the first stage and they keep being first on the stages throughout the whole recce days... Mikko was somewhere in the middle/back already when he was driving at Ford. Does it mean because you change team, that you have to change all your habits? Then you could say: "they want Mikko to organize his recce-day different than how he was used to do it before." I think you just want to see chauvinism or whatever, even if there is nothing...

[Mintexmemory]

I don't understand anything from this post... :D North-European drivers at PSA were Gronholm, Rovanpera, Radstrom and Hirvonen. I don't think anyone has been disadvantaged from the team... Also what's the connection between "North Europeans have never fitted into PSA group" and Burns and McRae (who are obviously not North-European)? About Mikko/RECCE... In recce Loeb/Ogier(/Sordo?) are known of always being first drivers on the first stage and they keep being first on the stages throughout the whole recce days... Mikko was somewhere in the middle/back already when he was driving at Ford. Does it mean because you change team, that you have to change all your habits? Then you could say: "they want Mikko to organize his recce-day different than how he was used to do it before." I think you just want to see chauvinism or whatever, even if there is nothing...

Just to aid the debate - Brits, the Irish, North Germans, Nederlanders, Belgians and French, north of Le Midi are classed as Northern Europeans - not just Scandinavians

South France, Spain, Portugal, Italy, Greece, South Germany are Southern Europeans - Austria isn't anything!

However PSA Group actually counts as a Northern European concern, so while I understand MJW's point I feel the reason some drivers fit in and others don't is much simpler. To mis-quote S L Jackson in Pulp Fiction - "Do you Speak French, MF". I dont' think Mikko is fitting in for all sorts of other complex issues, the absent No1 being the biggest.

But to answer the question you put Tom, yes Mikko should have changed, the dynamic being you do what the successful part of the union wants. Mikko was joining the successful team and therefore needs to fit in with them, not vice versa. If they are used to seeing their guys first on the stage, then not doing that creates the 'not a team member' message and he will then be regarded in that way!

[RS]

And btw, I have to disagree with RS. Hänninen isn't a rainmaker. He simply just don't have what it takes.

He is probably the driver who has had the least chances who deserves one.

I maintain that if he had the luck/backing Hirvonen has had over the years he would have done a better job.

[makinen_fan]

I maintain that if he had the luck/backing Hirvonen has had over the years he would have done a better job.

Did he ever had bad luck that cost him the title? From what I remember in the last 5-6 years in most rallies he was just driving to finish as high as he could without risking much and fight for victory. He rarely tried to challenge Seb.
And for backing he had enough from MW, he hold onto him for a lot of seasons as No1.

[tommeke_B]

@Makinen_fan: read again...

[makinen_fan]

tha Tom, forgive my latest point, RS comments I thought targeted Mikko. read it too quickly

PS i cant the edit button to delete the post. help!

[Adler]

Just to aid the debate - Brits, the Irish, North Germans, Nederlanders, Belgians and French, north of Le Midi are classed as Northern Europeans - not just Scandinavians

South France, Spain, Portugal, Italy, Greece, South Germany are Southern Europeans - Austria isn't anything!


sorry but that looks like your very personal fragmantation of europe....acc. this Loeb is from northern europe, Gassner southern....Aigner asian or what???

[Mintexmemory]

sorry but that looks like your very personal fragmantation of europe....acc. this Loeb is from northern europe, Gassner southern....Aigner asian or what???

I think Alsace-Lorraine still qualifies in most historical descriptions as Northern Europe. Given that Genghis Khan's empire included albeit briefly Austria, then yes Asia for Aigner seems good to me! ;)

[Adler]

I think Alsace-Lorraine still qualifies in most historical descriptions as Northern Europe. Given that Genghis Khan's empire included albeit briefly Austria, then yes Asia for Aigner seems good to me! ;)
ok, so parts of england belongs to rome ;)

[Mintexmemory]

ok, so parts of england belongs to rome ;)

All of England, actually! They had the good sense to build a wall to keep the Scots out.
"But what have the Romans ever done for us?" (Or Mikko, just to wrench this back on thread)

[Mintexmemory]

Well now, that was different!!!

[Mirek]

sorry but that looks like your very personal fragmantation of europe....acc. this Loeb is from northern europe, Gassner southern....Aigner asian or what???

Hehe, according to common jokes about Prague people and their understanding of surrounding world You are really partly in Asia (together with all Moravia, Slovakia, Hungary) :D I personally got used to these jokes and when I leave Prague to a place of my origin (some 150 km to the East) I say I'm going to the Near East while when I go to Barum rally for example I say I'm going to the Far East :D

[tommeke_B]

Back on topic... Mikko did something different this time :D

[Eli]

he went off, another disappointment for the finn, i'm sorry but if he hadn't won the title back in 2009 when he actually had a chance, i don't think it will happen for hime ever. He's unable to challenge Ogier, Ostberg, Novikov(when he doesn't crash), and Jari-Matti Latvala,not to mention Thierry Nueville (for this rally anyway).

[Rallyper]

Today he challenged (that´s good) but learned the hard way when he passed the limit. Keep on going Mikko and he willl win in NORF.

[RS]

We are talking about Mikko, I think he should have learned everything by now. Game over at the end of this year I guess.

[Rallyper]

The limits always differ. You can´t learn, only push to the limit everytime. Even Loeb was beyond the limits sometimes.

[koppel]

mikko- an overated driver trying to keep up with the top guys, think back on the top teams he has been pushed into

subaru,ford etc. Loeb even beat him driving with one hand,he only gets a result when there is a few retirements

making him a big fish in a small pond.

[Vaggelis27]

If Citroen retire the wrc where mikko will find a seat with this season??

[Mintexmemory]

If this season ends with no wins for Mikko or Dani then that will decide matters for Citroen. They will withdraw from WRC and there will be be 2 unemployed guys trying to buy a ride. M-Sport won't be offering a paid drive. Hyundai will have their team already contracted and I don't see VW offering their possible 4th car to anyone but Thierry Neuville. How different would this season have been if Citroen's decisions had resulted in an Ogier / Neuville team.

[6789]

If this season ends with no wins for Mikko or Dani then that will decide matters for Citroen. They will withdraw from WRC and there will be be 2 unemployed guys trying to buy a ride. M-Sport won't be offering a paid drive. Hyundai will have their team already contracted and I don't see VW offering their possible 4th car to anyone but Thierry Neuville. How different would this season have been if Citroen's decisions had resulted in an Ogier / Neuville team.

Ogier at Ford WRT would have been very interesting as well!

[Vaggelis27]

Ford made an offer in Ogier in the end of 2011 season but it was only for 1 year so he rejected it and petter solberg took the seat.

[6789]

Ford made an offer in Ogier in the end of 2011 season but it was only for 1 year so he rejected it and petter solberg took the seat.

This is a little off topic, but my understanding was that Ford hadn't committed to 2012 at the time and that's why Ogier didn't take the deal. Either way, I would have loved to have seen Ogier in Ford last year. The Fiesta was fast and Ogier would have been able to compete with Loeb imo.

[makinen_fan]

Ogier at Ford WRT would have been very interesting as well!

It would have been interesting in 2012 battling it out with Loeb, but this year he would have been dominant even with a Fiesta IMO

[A FONDO]

Ford also offered contract to Ogier at the end of 2010 with twice bigger salary, but he decided to stay loyal to citroen who promised him equal status.

[Mintexmemory]

Ford also offered contract to Ogier at the end of 2010 with twice bigger salary, but he decided to stay loyal to citroen who promised him equal status.

I wasn't aware that this had happened. Goes a long way to explaining the anger SO felt at the 2011 treatment - bet he is doubly happy this year! Stepping into SL vs territory I hope Ogier has got the WDC by Alsace so he can give us a flat out contest ( don't think we'll see that from Mikko ever again)

[A FONDO]

I read it in an interview with Malcom Wilson, I think somewhere around the middle of 2011.

This is all I can find now: Loeb Tells Ogier to Move to Ford (http://www.autoevolution.com/news/loeb-tells-ogier-to-move-to-ford-22464.html)

[jiipee64]

Yle Uutiset Keski-Suomi: Yle Uutiset Keski-Suomi tiistai 25-06-2013 klo 19-00 | Tv | Areena | yle.fi (http://areena.yle.fi/tv/1959637)

from 4:30 onwards...

I hope it can be seen outside Finland too...

[jiipee64]

Yle Uutiset Keski-Suomi: Yle Uutiset Keski-Suomi tiistai 25-06-2013 klo 19-00 | Tv | Areena | yle.fi (http://areena.yle.fi/tv/1959637)

from 4:30 onwards...

I hope it can be seen outside Finland too...

[Mintexmemory]

Yle Uutiset Keski-Suomi: Yle Uutiset Keski-Suomi tiistai 25-06-2013 klo 19-00 | Tv | Areena | yle.fi (http://areena.yle.fi/tv/1959637)

from 4:30 onwards...

I hope it can be seen outside Finland too...

Yep, perfectly visible in UK :) . Mikko must hope that BBQ racing doesn't get wrecked by manufacturer self-interest!

[Hartusvuori]

Retired Citroen driver mr. Loeb is preparing himself for an uphill battle. Meanwhile in Finland, his protegé is gonna go downhill...

https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc3/1052293_677559045603757_1269430448_o.jpg

[MikeD]

There is no doubt in my mind after what I read between the lines in the news regarding Citroën and their WTCC participation, that if there are Citroëns in the WRC next year it will not be factory backed but run by PH-Sport with Abu Dhabi backing. One driver will be Al Qassimi and the other will be the best option available. I doubt that Hirvonen will be retained, but Sordo could due to Spain still being Citroëns 3rd or 4th most important market. There could be a French future talent which could be nursed towards a possible Peugeot entry (which I still believe won’t happen). But all in all, then Citroën in the WRC is coming to an end.

[EightGear]

Mikko Hirvonen calm ahead of crunch rally to decide Citroen future - WRC news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/108294)

[RS]

They would be stupid to call Finland a "crunch rally". He bloody well ought to be fast there.

Maybe they can try to get Neuville back?

[GINE]

They would be stupid to call Finland a "crunch rally". He bloody well ought to be fast there.

Maybe they can try to get Neuville back?

Dont forget Kubica....
I believe he will be in a wrc car next year

[Plan9]

There is no doubt in my mind after what I read between the lines in the news regarding Citroën and their WTCC participation, that if there are Citroëns in the WRC next year it will not be factory backed but run by PH-Sport with Abu Dhabi backing. One driver will be Al Qassimi and the other will be the best option available. I doubt that Hirvonen will be retained, but Sordo could due to Spain still being Citroëns 3rd or 4th most important market. There could be a French future talent which could be nursed towards a possible Peugeot entry (which I still believe won’t happen). But all in all, then Citroën in the WRC is coming to an end.


I agree. I think there might be a 3rd prostitute car for pay drivers as well.

[COD]

Why would any team hire him for next year? Look at the result this year... Any driver coming from sabbatical (Meeke, Loeb) can do better. If there is any justice in WRC, Mikko is going to a deserved retirement after 2013

[NxOxT]

meeke did not do better.

[COD]

Meeke was faster, maybe not more reliable. But if he can after 1,5 years absense from WRC outpace Mikko, then M is not WRC material anymore

[NxOxT]

faster ? where ?

[Mintexmemory]

Regardless of Meeke's speed v Mikko what this rally has shown Matton is that he is wasting a car with MH on tarmac. Citroen should trial a possible replacement in Spain - neither Dani or Mikko have the ability to deliver WDC.

[Rallyper]

Regardless of Meeke's speed v Mikko what this rally has shown Matton is that he is wasting a car with MH on tarmac. Citroen should trial a possible replacement in Spain - neither Dani or Mikko have the ability to deliver WDC.

No, but as second (or third) team drivers they still make it worth hiring.

[Mirek]

Regardless of Meeke's speed v Mikko what this rally has shown Matton is that he is wasting a car with MH on tarmac. Citroen should trial a possible replacement in Spain - neither Dani or Mikko have the ability to deliver WDC.

Mikko was nominated as No.1 driver prior the season and therefore can not be replaced unless he is ill/injured or unable to drive for some higher reason.

[Mintexmemory]

Regardless of Meeke's speed v Mikko what this rally has shown Matton is that he is wasting a car with MH on tarmac. Citroen should trial a possible replacement in Spain - neither Dani or Mikko have the ability to deliver WDC.

Mikko was nominated as No.1 driver prior the season and therefore can not be replaced unless he is ill/injured or unable to drive for some higher reason.

Thanks M - I had overlooked that point. Mysterious virus about to arise?

[COD]

Sorry news article only in finnish. How can he say, his speed has improved? He was supposed to be the title contender, and now happy with that pace. Disgrace.

http://www.mtv3.fi/urheilu/ralli/uutise ... i-parempaa (http://www.mtv3.fi/urheilu/ralli/uutiset.shtml/2013/10/1824200/hirvonen-vauhtini-ollut-huomattavasti-parempaa)

[N.O.T]

Sorry news article only in finnish. How can he say, his speed has improved? He was supposed to be the title contender, and now happy with that pace. Disgrace.

http://www.mtv3.fi/urheilu/ralli/uutise ... i-parempaa (http://www.mtv3.fi/urheilu/ralli/uutiset.shtml/2013/10/1824200/hirvonen-vauhtini-ollut-huomattavasti-parempaa)

Hirvonen is a very strange driver... i remember him in the private subarus and the renault s1600 to be crazy...then he moved into the official subaru and was a moving disaster...then at ford he showed some amazing speed... then from 2009 onwards a quitter... very strange person.

[Miika]

Please Citroen, someone else next year.

[makinen_fan]

I hope to see him back with a Ford next year. Probably that will wake him up a bit.

[A FONDO]

Please Citroen, someone else next year.
:D

[Miika]

'Mikko to M-Sport next year' says the Finnish tabloid(s). A fresh new start.
http://www.iltasanomat.fi/ralli/art-1288620692462.html

[HaCo]

Rolled the car in GB this morning. Sordo might finish in front of him in the championship!

[Rallyper]

'Mikko to M-Sport next year' says the Finnish tabloid(s). A fresh new start.
http://www.iltasanomat.fi/ralli/art-1288620692462.html

Mikko really needs a fresh start next year. Only Ford could bring him that, hopefully.

[COD]

This thread deserves o be activated again, hopeless performance again despite getting "back home" to M-sport

[WUff1]

This thread deserves o be activated again, hopeless performance again despite getting "back home" to M-sport

+1

... and the worst performance of all works drivers, far behind team rookies and pay driver Bouffier.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Years of being thrashed by Loeb has destroyed his fight and hope... you can see it in his face and body language... :(

'New' guys like Meeke and Kubica dont have this problem and are much stronger mentally.

[Miika]

Please Mikko, somewhere else next year.

[RS]

Never expected him to be great on Monte, but if he can't do the business in Sweden he may as well hang up his helmet.

[COD]

This thread deserves o be activated again, hopeless performance again despite getting "back home" to M-sport

+1

... and the worst performance of all works drivers, far behind team rookies and pay driver Bouffier.

Not just that, but on some stages beaten by WRC2 drivers as well. Pathetic

[Eli]

if Mikko doesn't win Sweden, and continues with last year's pace he should give up his seat, seriously. i though he would go better in the fiesta and if he can't do it he should give up his seat...really.

[Rallyper]

Well, it´s mental. I remember Mikko back in 2003 I guess, sacked by Subaru and driving private Focus of Jari Viihta (I think). He had no confidence at all until MW took him back to blue oval. After that we know all what happened.
Back a couple of years he went to be a father of children and seemed a bit more off in service parks. Which also could be seen on his pace. Then he did the big crash in Finland 2011. After that we´ve seen nothing from his usual pace.

I do think he needs a shrink for a couple of weeks and a deep talk with MW before Sweden and his pace might come back.

But in the mean time don´t say he not fast. He still is one of 5-6 fastest drivers in WRC. Don´t just look at RMC. It´s not representative rally.

[N.O.T]

mikko is done... bye bye... next year he can join the long list of retired never beens... it is a pity because a few years back he was fast and consistent but he hit the iceberg called Loeb and went down.

[Eli]

let's hope Ogier won't do the same to other drivers...cause it looks like latvala will need a change of seat (maybe) if he doesn't want to end up like mikko...

[stefanvv]

One of the best drivers on loose surface. Quite dissapointing performance here.

[focus206]

I'm really sorry for Mikko, I was supporting in him in his Ford years against Loeb/Citroen, and thanks especially to his consistency, he arrived to fight for the title twice at the last rally. But yes, unless he shows he still has the speed during this year (which I very doubt), he's over :\

[COD]

One of the best drivers on loose surface.

What year are you talkng about? Not 2013 or 14 for sure...

[stefanvv]

One of the best drivers on loose surface.

What year are you talkng about? Not 2013 or 14 for sure...
Generally speaking, nothing concrete

[denkimi]

i thing mikko is finished. he will never again win a rally.

[Rallyper]

Isn´t it about time that you guys try to cheer him up a bit instead of bashing him all the time. He could very well make wonders this year. RMC for him has been some troubles with windscreen, tyrechoices etz and yes, I know he hasn´t performed, but now he´s ahead of Evans which you guys has made the star of the rally :rolleyes: so he´s not that bad after all...

[N.O.T]

Isn´t it about time that you guys try to cheer him up a bit instead of bashing him all the time. He could very well make wonders this year. RMC for him has been some troubles with windscreen, tyrechoices etz and yes, I know he hasn´t performed, but now he´s ahead of Evans which you guys has made the star of the rally :rolleyes: so he´s not that bad after all...

LOL...

[Franky]

Isn´t it about time that you guys try to cheer him up a bit instead of bashing him all the time. He could very well make wonders this year. RMC for him has been some troubles with windscreen, tyrechoices etz and yes, I know he hasn´t performed, but now he´s ahead of Evans which you guys has made the star of the rally :rolleyes: so he´s not that bad after all...

LOL...

Ironically quite often your posts are as long as your username

[dimviii]

Isn´t it about time that you guys try to cheer him up a bit instead of bashing him all the time. He could very well make wonders this year. RMC for him has been some troubles with windscreen, tyrechoices etz and yes, I know he hasn´t performed, but now he´s ahead of Evans which you guys has made the star of the rally :rolleyes: so he´s not that bad after all...

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3685/12010336176_972962abe9_z.jpg

[denkimi]

Isn´t it about time that you guys try to cheer him up a bit instead of bashing him all the time. He could very well make wonders this year. RMC for him has been some troubles with windscreen, tyrechoices etz and yes, I know he hasn´t performed, but now he´s ahead of Evans which you guys has made the star of the rally :rolleyes: so he´s not that bad after all...
in 13 stages he has not one time managed to do a top 3 time. three 5th times are the best until now.
for a number one driver with his experience, there are no excuses for that.

evans doesn't do any better, but he's new to it.

[RS]

Isn´t it about time that you guys try to cheer him up a bit instead of bashing him all the time. He could very well make wonders this year. RMC for him has been some troubles with windscreen, tyrechoices etz and yes, I know he hasn´t performed, but now he´s ahead of Evans which you guys has made the star of the rally :rolleyes: so he´s not that bad after all...

Not that bad?

He's 6m30s behind a guy driving his second ever event in a world rally car (the same car, I might add)

I am sure he will be better on the other events, but I don't see him "making wonders" either.

[stefanvv]

evans doesn't do any better, but he's new to it.
Evans actually had 2nd time on SS3, well because of his tyres, but that also counts.

[Rallyper]

I tried to say that Mikko needs guys who cheers him up a bit. No undertakers neeeded...
Evans doing fine. But Mikko will be ahead. And yet the old lady hasn´t sang before it´s over...

[COD]

I tried to say that Mikko needs guys who cheers him up a bit. No undertakers neeeded...
Evans doing fine. But Mikko will be ahead. And yet the old lady hasn´t sang before it´s over...

There are expectations on a no1 driver in WRC team. He has not performed at all in years. All we have heard are excuses. Sorry if we are just realists, why cheer someone you have no apprecation for. If you are a fan, go ahead a cheer and wait if a mirracle happens.

[Rallyper]

I tried to say that Mikko needs guys who cheers him up a bit. No undertakers neeeded...
Evans doing fine. But Mikko will be ahead. And yet the old lady hasn´t sang before it´s over...

There are expectations on a no1 driver in WRC team. He has not performed at all in years. All we have heard are excuses. Sorry if we are just realists, why cheer someone you have no apprecation for. If you are a fan, go ahead a cheer and wait if a mirracle happens.

So why are you on this topic at all?

[Miika]

Landing yet another full season in a "factory" car, I think he already has all the support he needs.

[er88]

To be well and truly honest Mikko's performance has been an embarrassment. I seriously questioned why Evans got fulltime drive this year but maybe i should have been questioning why Hirvonen got a drive. Terrible despite it being Monte. Pummeled by Bouffier in same car tooo :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[Zeakiwi]

Hirvonen stopped in last stage of Monte Carlo. The hoodoo on Ford at Monte Carlo continues.
Could he get a Finnish shaman to do their thing on the car before Sweden?

[RS]

This thread is twenty two pages long for a reason. If I were Malcolm I would have taken a gamble on Hanninen for a full season.

[er88]

This thread is twenty two pages long for a reason. If I were Malcolm I would have taken a gamble on Hanninen for a full season.

Agree. Whats the actual point in Malcolm having Mikko?? Hes only going downhill..and downhilll fast.

[Eli]

juho hanninen should have shared Mikko's seat alongside Bouffier...

[dimviii]

This thread is twenty two pages long for a reason. If I were Malcolm I would have taken a gamble on Hanninen for a full season.

Agree. Whats the actual point in Malcolm having Mikko?? Hes only going downhill..and downhilll fast.

probably Mikkos sponsors.

[RS]

This thread is twenty two pages long for a reason. If I were Malcolm I would have taken a gamble on Hanninen for a full season.

Agree. Whats the actual point in Malcolm having Mikko?? Hes only going downhill..and downhilll fast.

probably Mikkos sponsors.

They aren't on the car, I guess they only pay Mikko's wages.

[dimviii]

They aren't on the car, I guess they only pay Mikko's wages.

and Mikko->Malcolm,or drive for free.

[COD]

Agree. Whats the actual point in Malcolm having Mikko?? Hes only going downhill..and downhilll fast.[/quote]

probably Mikkos sponsors.[/quote]

They aren't on the car, I guess they only pay Mikko's wages.[/quote]

That is probably the way it is organized.

Why did Wilson take Mikko then? He didn't want to "gamble" with two "unknown" drivers, so he took the only one who would in desperation drive for free.

For Mikko it would have been better to go o RX or just stop instead of another embarrasing year

[Eli]

Why did Wilson take Mikko then? He didn't want to "gamble" with two "unknown" drivers, so he took the only one who would in desperation drive for free.

For Mikko it would have been better to go o RX or just stop instead of another embarrasing year

true, there are more than enough drivers out there who desrve his seat. let's say you want an experinced driver so what about Petter Solberg, i bet he can still mange better than hirvonen...

[Franky]

For Christ sake, it's the first rally of the season and one where he has never really shined. And you lot are already hanging him. If the situation is same after the first three rounds, then there's reason to start doubting about the future.

[Eli]

well hopefully your'e right and he won't be too bad as he hass been in recent times...

[COD]

For Christ sake, it's the first rally of the season and one where he has never really shined. And you lot are already hanging him. If the situation is same after the first three rounds, then there's reason to start doubting about the future.

Yeah, as he was so great last season :eek: This thread has lasted longer than first event of 2014. You don't see a pattern??

[Franky]

For Christ sake, it's the first rally of the season and one where he has never really shined. And you lot are already hanging him. If the situation is same after the first three rounds, then there's reason to start doubting about the future.

Yeah, as he was so great last season :eek: This thread has lasted longer than first event of 2014. You don't see a pattern??

It doesn't matter if I see a pattern or not. IF it was up to me more than one person wouldn't have a works drive of the current lineups.

For some reason teams keep hiring him. So you better start writing the team bosses because I'm pretty sure they don't have time to check this thread.

But I'll just ignore this thread from now on since there's really no proper argumentation besides "he shouldn't have a drive", "he should hang the helmet", etc.

[A.F.F.]

juho hanninen should have shared Mikko's seat alongside Bouffier...

I don't know about Bouffier, is he just a tarmac specialist or good on gravel too but I really don't understand the high praise of Juho Hänninen??

What comes to Mikko, I'm anxious to see him in Rally Sweden. There should be absolutely no excuse him for not to be on podium. One of his favourite events, familiar car and team, suitable for his driving style etc... If I see similar Mikko than this weekend with total lack of fighting spirit and pace, well, tha's about it then :mark:

[RS]

juho hanninen should have shared Mikko's seat alongside Bouffier...

I don't know about Bouffier, is he just a tarmac specialist or good on gravel too but I really don't understand the high praise of Juho Hänninen??


What is it with you rebellious Finns these days? :p A few years ago on this forum some members gave the impression that all Finns were world champion material and if they turned out not to be it was somebody else's fault.

I am personally quite sure that given the opportunities than Hirvonen has had over the years that Juho could have done more with it. When he is gelled with the car he has a lot of flair and commitment. I hope he can show it this year and that he is not already too old.

As for Bouffier he is quite capable on gravel too, he did a better job than Kubica on Rally Poland last year despite driving a knackered old 207.

I am quite sure Mikko will be better for the rest of the season than he was on Monte, if he isn't then Malcolm may as well bring back his son :laugh:

[N.O.T]

What is it with you rebellious Finns these days? :p A few years ago on this forum some members gave the impression that all Finns were world champion material and if they turned out not to be it was somebody else's fault.



Loeb beat them sensenless for 9 years like they were stray dogs roaming the garbage bins... he broke their spirit and made their arrogance disappear... praise became hate for their once glorified idols...

and on top of that another french took over as the big boss man and treats them like they do not have souls nowadays...

[RS]

Loeb beat them sensenless for 9 years like they were stray dogs roaming the garbage bins... he broke their spirit and made their arrogance disappear... praise became hate for their once glorified idols...

and on top of that another french took over as the big boss man and treats them like they do not have souls nowadays...

Hmmm, I would tone down the language but fundamentally I think you are right that the dominance of the French in recent years has maybe forced some people to be more realistic. Not A.F.F. by the way who started this thread in the first place.

[COD]

We can apreciate the achievemts of Loeb and Ogier. The sad thing is that Grönholm was the last Finn with a true fighting spirit + skills

[N.O.T]

We can apreciate the achievemts of Loeb and Ogier. The sad thing is that Grönholm was the last Finn with a true fighting spirit + skills

Yes but he was beaten in an ugly retirement by Loeb while he still had 1-2 years in him....Latvala also has the fighting spirit but he is just reckless i think if he manages to get things together for 1-2 consecutive years he could be champion once like Mcrae if he is lucky and if the contract he has allows him to do so.

Other than that, now that teams do not waste their money and put driving skills above manager tricks we see the true Finish so called talents...an assortment of nobodies...

[COD]

We can apreciate the achievemts of Loeb and Ogier. The sad thing is that Grönholm was the last Finn with a true fighting spirit + skills


Other than that, now that teams do not waste their money and put driving skills above manager tricks we see the true Finish so called talents...an assortment of nobodies...

If they would take talented Finns instead of the favourites of one manager,there would be better Finnish drivers in the championship

[N.O.T]

exactly...

[A.F.F.]

Loeb beat them sensenless for 9 years like they were stray dogs roaming the garbage bins... he broke their spirit and made their arrogance disappear... praise became hate for their once glorified idols...

and on top of that another french took over as the big boss man and treats them like they do not have souls nowadays...

Loeb didn't break our spirit. 100 000 russian didn't break our spirit. Swedish junior hockey team didn't break our spirit you most certainly won't break our spirit. It is very hard to praise something which isn't good. Have you seen me praising you for example?If we talk about Finnish drivers then yes, Mikko seem to be without a spirit. Latvala however is weird. I don't know why he makes things so complicated for himself. One good stage is followed by two bad ones. One win is followed by two retirements. This year he is having a mental coach!!? Isn't that a last sign that he is his own worst enemy. Then my personal opinion about Juho Hänninen, sorry RS, I have to disagree with you. On ERC level Juho is a champion material. On modern WRC level, Juho is an avarage. Speedwise he won't fight for podiums. I had high hopes for Esapekka Lappi but I'm sad to notice that he didn't gamble but played it safe and enjoy the salary from Skoda. Yes he gets experience but I would love to have an honest answer does he feel any frustration not being a part of WRC or even WRC2? The rest of the artillery we have lack the money. So, what should we praise for now, especially being known what we have used to in the history :mark:

What comes to french super-Sebastiens, well, they are great champions, especially Loeb but Ogier seems unbeatable at this moment.Both guys have earned what they have and I personally have nothing bad to say about either one of them. Although, IMO Ogier is more arrogant than Loeb but I guess it's needed, it's one thing he get's his fuel from. But I also think that Loeb's dominance was bad for WRC and that is not just Finnish opinion, it's a global one. Should Ogier do the same, there is but handfull of hardcore fans left who follow WRC. Everybody else are sitting in the arena with a hotdog watching global rallycross.

[RS]

[quote="N.O.T":39amcvk5]
Then my personal opinion about Juho Hänninen, sorry RS, I have to disagree with you. On ERC level Juho is a champion material. On modern WRC level, Juho is an avarage. Speedwise he won't fight for podiums. I had high hopes for Esapekka Lappi but I'm sad to notice that he didn't gamble but played it safe and enjoy the salary from Skoda. Yes he gets experience but I would love to have an honest answer does he feel any frustration not being a part of WRC or even WRC2? The rest of the artillery we have lack the money. So, what should we praise for now, especially being known what we have used to in the history :mark:[/quote:39amcvk5]

We'll have to agree to disagree on Juho. I repeat that it might now be too late for him, but I still think he would have had a better career than Mikko given the same chances. Mikko has a lot to thank Malcolm Wilson for, indeed Latvala does too.

As for Lappi, have you not been following developments in WRC the last year or so? There are some guys around now; Neuville, Meeke, Hanninen, Mikelssen, Bouffier... where did they come from? I honestly place learning to drive above learning the rallies :)

[Mirek]

Competition level of IRC (now ERC) has been reasonably higher than that of WRC2 (SWRC) partly because of stupid rules of WRC2 where for example 2013 champion and vice-champion almost never competed against each other. They were of completely different driving level and still "battling" some strange indirect chess game.

IRC/ERC is a proven talent finding series. SWRC/WRC2 has so far failed in that point of view.

[AndyRAC]

I'm another who rates Hanninen. He needs a proper full programme to show what be can do. Similar to what I've been saying about Meeke for years. These 'one off' events are of no use. Another driver who hasn't done a full WRC season in a WRCar.

[A.F.F.]

I just jumped back to year 2006 and read the posts from the beginning of the archive. I noticed that I've been yapping this same scheise about Latvala from 2007 !!! I could have just copy and paste my previous post. :mark:

Back in the 80's and 90's, the good old days, team bosses catched new drivers from lower classes or British championship. Today is an exception because last years there have been none extra seats. Who can remember a driver roulette what we had before this season started?? I surely can't. If WRc promotion has failed misarable, WRC2 has been a total disaster which is a shame because promoted right, it could be a great formula. IMO the steps to WRC should be from ERC to WRC2, not other way around. The rules should be fair and logical and it should have media coverage. I was very glad to see that the coverage MotorsTV send, they have WRC2 coverage included. :up:

What comes to Lappi, he suffers from the teams strategy. I know by a fact he wishes to drive the World Championship Rallies, even in WRC 2, to get to know them for future. What is he driving now? ERC? A month a go or so he was driving in China some rally. WTF? Last year he should have driven WRC2 but the team chose otherwise. I agree RS that learning to drive s more important than learning to drive in rallyes, just ask Novokov :) But driving in WRC2 could have been a good practise too.

I think this subject needs an own thread don't you think or is there one already? This one is for praising Mikko.

[RS]

What comes to Lappi, he suffers from the teams strategy. I know by a fact he wishes to drive the World Championship Rallies, even in WRC 2, to get to know them for future. What is he driving now? ERC? A month a go or so he was driving in China some rally. WTF? Last year he should have driven WRC2 but the team chose otherwise.

Lappi still has a lot to prove. He probably shouldn't have been in APRC last year, I agree... but he didn't win that either.

Of course it is good to have some experience of WRC events, but again I think it is more important that he learns how to drive in a competitive championship. Look at Breen for example, he spent 2012 winning sWRC then he switched to ERC where it turned out he wasn't up to scratch yet, even though last year was weaker than the last few years of IRC.

I agree with Andy, you can't make too much of a judgement on Hanninen when he has done only two events in a modern World Rally Car. After IRC (which he never won) Neuville needed some time to acclimatise to WRC, but now he is probably the most exciting talent after Ogier, even if there is still some work to do...


I think this subject needs an own thread don't you think or is there one already? This one is for praising Mikko.

Hehe, I don't see much of that :laugh:

[A.F.F.]

There is a silverlining, Mikko has not totally lost his speed. At this point his career is going downhill faster than ever ;)

[COD]

I still it doesn't matter where you learn, as long as you learn to drive in different conditions, IMHO APRC was a good place to learn for Lappi. If you look at what for example Mäkinen did before he became a WRC regular, he did a lot of different events in Europe. As long as ypu learn to compete in dfferent roads and conditions, it will benefit you for the future. Patience with Lappi, he is still a very young driver. ERC now and then if he is good enough, more WRC events

[COD]

There is a silverlining, Mikko has not totally lost his speed. At this point his career is going downhill faster than ever ;)

+1

[A.F.F.]

I still it doesn't matter where you learn, as long as you learn to drive in different conditions, IMHO APRC was a good place to learn for Lappi. If you look at what for example Mäkinen did before he became a WRC regular, he did a lot of different events in Europe. As long as ypu learn to compete in dfferent roads and conditions, it will benefit you for the future. Patience with Lappi, he is still a very young driver. ERC now and then if he is good enough, more WRC events

But some point he has to make a decision and propably take a risk. By that I mean leave a salaryseat and make an investment. That is something Hänninen did way too late. I personally won't believe there will be more manufacturers in WRC in the future. And the same guys fill the seats so unless Lappi is superior, he has to gamble. But like you said, he is still very young.

[RS]

I personally won't believe there will be more manufacturers in WRC in the future. And the same guys fill the seats so unless Lappi is superior, he has to gamble. But like you said, he is still very young.

Skoda can be a good route to VW in the future, if Latvala and Mikelssen don't keep their jobs in the longer term.

Let's see how he does in ERC this year, I believe Skoda will give him the necessary programme to get the job done. After that Fabia R5 is coming...

[PLuto]

Skoda knows very well why they have sent Esapekka out of WRC2 to starts in APRC and some ERC events...

[A.F.F.]

Btw. Do you have any inside info about Skoda's R5 progress?

[A.F.F.]

Skoda knows very well why they have sent Esapekka out of WRC2 to starts in APRC and some ERC events...

Marketing Skoda?

[RS]

Skoda knows very well why they have sent Esapekka out of WRC2 to starts in APRC and some ERC events...

Marketing Skoda?

I thought more to clear the way for Wiegand in WRC2.

[PLuto]

Btw. Do you have any inside info about Skoda's R5 progress?

Yes, they are intensively working on the car.

[PLuto]

Skoda knows very well why they have sent Esapekka out of WRC2 to starts in APRC and some ERC events...

Marketing Skoda?

This is only one of the sides...

[PLuto]

Skoda knows very well why they have sent Esapekka out of WRC2 to starts in APRC and some ERC events...

Marketing Skoda?

I thought more to clear the way for Wiegand in WRC2.

Yes, this is also one of the reasons :)

[A.F.F.]

A stupid question just hit me. Does VAG allow Skoda on the same stages than VW, even in different class? Os PSA for that matter?

[Mirek]

A.F.F.: Lappi didn't manage to win APRC against Gaurav Gill (and no other reasonable competitor). He definitely isn't a WRC material in the moment. He didn't shine in his ERC events either (except his victory in Switzerland but with lesser competition).

On the other hand I would bet Mikkelsen won't continue in VW if he doesn't improve reasonably. For some reason it looks like he stopped progressing two or three years back. If he is gone and if Lappi is ruling ERC he can get on his seat. If he is not ruling ERC or at least not fighting for podiums on every rally he is not ready - the very same Mikkelsen won two IRC titles. Hänninen won both IRC and ERC. Lappi hasn't managed anything near that so far.


A stupid question just hit me. Does VAG allow Skoda on the same stages than VW, even in different class? Os PSA for that matter?

I think they can drive WRC with S2000 but why? There is no marketing value for a manufacturer in driving WRC2. Nobody cares about it except hardcore fans. There is no TV media coverage either. Only overall results count...

[PLuto]

On the other hand I would bet Mikkelsen won't continue in VW if he doesn't improve reasonably. For some reason it looks like he stopped progressing two or three years back.

I think that he stopped his progress after his first title in IRC. In the next season he was not so good (or lucky?) like year before, he was not be able to be on same speed on most of the events.

[A.F.F.]

Who knows for how long VW will be in WRC? About Lappi, I didn't say he was WRC material, I just wanted him WRC2. Like I said, MotorsTV showed a wrap-up after every day of WRC2. So those R5 Fiestas got at least some coverage :)

[PLuto]

Who knows for how long VW will be in WRC? About Lappi, I didn't say he was WRC material, I just wanted him WRC2. Like I said, MotorsTV showed a wrap-up after every day of WRC2. So those R5 Fiestas got at least some coverage :)

One example from the past - when Proton moved from IRC to SWRC, their "media coverage" were going 60% down...

[PLuto]

And to say the truth, WRC2 is good for gaining experience on WRC roads and possibility for good results. But for sure not for competition. And that is what this young drivers need - serious competition.

[A.F.F.]

I agree with both of your posts.

Why on earth FIA won't make WRC2 more appealing?

[PLuto]

I agree with both of your posts.

Why on earth FIA won't make WRC2 more appealing?

I think that there is same answer like for question "Why on earth FIA won't make WRC more appealing?" - Because they are not interested in making rallysport more appealing...

[A.F.F.]

And on that bombshell I guess it's time to hand over this thread to Mikko :)

[liposh]

It is not shame to be 5th or 6th ...but with really good times and few of the stages on podium.

[A.F.F.]

I wonder what Wilson is thinking right now? Because I think Wilson really thought by bringing Mikko back to Behind the steering wheel of Fiesta, he could dig out the pace he once had. I feel sad, really. And I rest my case Your Honour. :sad:

[COD]

I wonder what Wilson is thinking right now? Because I think Wilson really thought by bringing Mikko back to Behind the steering wheel of Fiesta, he could dig out the pace he once had. I feel sad, really. And I rest my case Your Honour. :sad:


He didn't have the money or the ong time plan to keep Neuville so he settled for crap. I can not see that he ever thought Mikko could be back in the form he once was. Besides, Mikko has only once been faster than his teammate, now he can do at least that with a kid as a teammmate. But I predict that in most rallies a private Fiesta will kikc his ass

[RS]

I wonder what Wilson is thinking right now?

Tanak and Bouffier?

[stefanvv]

I wonder what Wilson is thinking right now?

Tanak and Bouffier?
Or.....
http://www.rallye-sport.fr/wp-content/gallery/suede-2014/aurelien_vialatte-25.jpg

[COD]

I wonder what Wilson is thinking right now?

Tanak and Bouffier?
Or.....
http://www.rallye-sport.fr/wp-content/gallery/suede-2014/aurelien_vialatte-25.jpg

He can not be that desperate :D

[Doon]

I can't see that MW will be that bothered, it's not like he's paying Mikko to do a job. As long as Mikko/his sponsors keep paying, he'll stay in the car.

[RS]

I can't see that MW will be that bothered, it's not like he's paying Mikko to do a job. As long as Mikko/his sponsors keep paying, he'll stay in the car.

Since they are not on the car, I don't believe Mikko's sponsors are paying for the drive. Just some expenses/wages for Mikko/Jarmo.

[ironseb]

IMHO, Hirvonen will progressively retrieve his confidence race after race.

[Mintexmemory]

IMHO, Hirvonen will progressively retrieve his confidence race after race.

Are you 'Sebenfer' by any chance? If Hirvonen isn't able to cut it in Sweden it's highly unlikely he'll be better when the gravel comes.
He was clearly less competitive than Meeke on RMC

[ironseb]

That's me ;)

Hirvonen need confidence. That's all. It's clear that he was slow at Monaco and not at his better level in Sweden but I'm sure that he will retrieve his level with a little bit of confidence. But that means that he needs time.

[N.O.T]

That's me ;)

Hirvonen need confidence. That's all. It's clear that he was slow at Monaco and not at his better level in Sweden but I'm sure that he will retrieve his level with a little bit of confidence. But that means that he needs time.

I think 4 years of "meh" performances is a good indication that confidence is not what he needs... Hirvonen is a "never been" and he will retire this way.

[COD]

His Career should have over after the lame season in Subaru 2004, was slow and not very reliable the. He has been extremely lucky to have continued so long

[N.O.T]

His Career should have over after the lame season in Subaru 2004, was slow and not very reliable the. He has been extremely lucky to have continued so long

No. He was very fast when he joined Ford and even challenged Gronholm/Loeb some times... his spirit broke when he hit the iceberg called Loeb in 2010... from then on he is a lost soul.

[Rallyper]

I can´t really understand how a guy doing top 5 times on stages is a never been. For sure he´s not the same as for 4-5 yrs ago, but still. As long as he performs he´s not a "lost soul" or a "never been".

[ironseb]

I can´t really understand how a guy doing top 5 times on stages is a never been. For sure he´s not the same as for 4-5 yrs ago, but still. As long as he performs he´s not a "lost soul" or a "never been".

I agree with you. More than 60 podium in WRC, a lot of drivers dream about that.

[N.O.T]

I can´t really understand how a guy doing top 5 times on stages is a never been. For sure he´s not the same as for 4-5 yrs ago, but still. As long as he performs he´s not a "lost soul" or a "never been".

He is a never been... he never became champion... only losers dream about podiums...

[focus206]

Well I always liked Mikko, and he has still a good pace, but he won't ever come back to the speed he had back then. He was definitely the fastest driver after Loeb in those years (or at least the one who was able to collect more points thanks to his consistency), he had the opportunity of a lifetime in 2009 and 2011, thanks also to mistakes/retirements by Loeb and Ogier. But unfortunately he didn't make it. I really see no way for him to be back to that level...

[Rallyper]

I can´t really understand how a guy doing top 5 times on stages is a never been. For sure he´s not the same as for 4-5 yrs ago, but still. As long as he performs he´s not a "lost soul" or a "never been".

He is a never been... he never became champion... only losers dream about podiums...

He´d become champion in 2009 if Ford had played the cards right.

[RS]

I can't remember too much what rules were in place when, but I have a feeling that running order rules at one stage gave a big advantage to Mikko. I remember about Malcolm protesting to keep it that way to help his drivers (rather than have them compete on actual speed)

[Rallyper]

Well I always liked Mikko, and he has still a good pace, but he won't ever come back to the speed he had back then. He was definitely the fastest driver after Loeb in those years (or at least the one who was able to collect more points thanks to his consistency), he had the opportunity of a lifetime in 2009 and 2011, thanks also to mistakes/retirements by Loeb and Ogier. But unfortunately he didn't make it. I really see no way for him to be back to that level...

I see nothing wrong in what you´re saying, but the question was: is he a never been or a loser or even not worth a drive in WRC at the level he is at now?? For most of us here being viewers for decades he still deserves to be named as a top runner.

[Rallyper]

I can't remember too much what rules were in place when, but I have a feeling that running order rules at one stage gave a big advantage to Mikko. I remember about Malcolm protesting to keep it that way to help his drivers (rather than have them compete on actual speed)
Edit: see below.

[Rallyper]

I can't remember too much what rules were in place when, but I have a feeling that running order rules at one stage gave a big advantage to Mikko. I remember about Malcolm protesting to keep it that way to help his drivers (rather than have them compete on actual speed)

No, MAlcolm gave away Mikkos points letting JML finish ahead of Mikko and not giving teamorders as every other teams always has done. And Mikko lost two points or something like that. That year he lost the title with one point.

[COD]

His Career should have over after the lame season in Subaru 2004, was slow and not very reliable the. He has been extremely lucky to have continued so long

No. He was very fast when he joined Ford and even challenged Gronholm/Loeb some times... his spirit broke when he hit the iceberg called Loeb in 2010... from then on he is a lost soul.

NO(T). At the time he made his bakthrough, he passed many faster drivers who could have achieved same or more than he did.nthat is why he has been extremely lucky

[N.O.T]

His Career should have over after the lame season in Subaru 2004, was slow and not very reliable the. He has been extremely lucky to have continued so long

No. He was very fast when he joined Ford and even challenged Gronholm/Loeb some times... his spirit broke when he hit the iceberg called Loeb in 2010... from then on he is a lost soul.

NO(T). At the time he made his bakthrough, he passed many faster drivers who could have achieved same or more than he did.nthat is why he has been extremely lucky

what more would someone else achieve ? who could have stopped the greatest of all times ? NONE

Hirvonen just lost his spirit after 2009... it was the end of him as a competitive driver... the only thing i do not like about him is that he quit trying after 2009... maybe he was afraid that he would end up like Gronholm, always trying to beat Loeb and always FAILED.