Coyne Tests Bourdais And Plowman [Archive]

Hoop-98

1st February 2011, 23:07

From Speed (http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/indycar-coyne-tests-bourdais-and-plowman/)

From Racer (http://www.racer.com/sebastien-bourdais-returns-to-indycar-with-dale-coyne/article/195469/)

"In his first return to Indy Cars since winning a record setting 4th consecutive Championship in 2007, Sebastien Bourdais picked up right where he left off. During the one day test, the talented Frenchman ran the quickest laps of 2011 ahead of the eight other drivers that have tested there this year.

“The car was very good and it really felt good to be back in an Indy Car,” reported Bourdais. “I was not sure what to expect, but I was impressed with the way the car handled, and look forward to putting together the pieces to get back into Indy Car racing. I really believe in what Dale is doing with his team and it can be a great opportunity for both of us this year.”

Interesting...

Alexamateo

1st February 2011, 23:55

Wow! didn't see that coming. Maybe Coyne picks up his second win as an owner this year.

nigelred5

2nd February 2011, 00:47

Well, hmmmm.......... appreciate his talent and record, much of which in THE dominant car in a dwindling series. I've always been a NHR fan, but the last couple of champcar seasons wiht hte Lola, it was like the Yankees winning the world series playing AAA teams IMHO. His first championship I'll give him. The rest...... :s hrug:

Just never been a fan of Mr. MACDoonalds.

For Dale's sake, I hope he can make it happen, the team deserves another season with a proven driver and a good budget.

Leo Krupe

2nd February 2011, 01:04

What a step up from Milka Dontknow to Seabass. This is shaping up to be a verrrry interesting season.....

MAX_THRUST

2nd February 2011, 17:25

"Interesting", was the first thing that came to my mind as well. This could be good for the series as another champion could be in it.

NaBUru38

3rd February 2011, 00:13

What a step up from Milka Dontknow to Seabass. This is shaping up to be a verrrry interesting season.....
That's right. But I'm not sure that Bourdais will do well. He might lose all of his reputation this side of the Atlantic by facing a fairly strong field. That's being bold, and I appreciate that (just like Schumacher coming back to F1 last year).

garyshell

3rd February 2011, 01:46

That's right. But I'm not sure that Bourdais will do well. He might lose all of his reputation this side of the Atlantic by facing a fairly strong field. That's being bold, and I appreciate that (just like Schumacher coming back to F1 last year).

What rep does he have other than his CART championships?

Gary

elan 02

3rd February 2011, 03:38

It's been awhile but thinking of Bourdais takes me back to the Laguna Seca test of the new DP1. Spent all four days there with a handfull of fans until Sunday. Fans drove from all over norcal to see CC test their new car. It was late Sunday afternoon and they sent Bourdais out to see if he could top Zontas track time that he layed down in a F1 Toyota the year before Aug. 20 th 06. So that Sunday March 10 2007 Bourdais set a new track record 105.880 in a car that just came off the shop floor and was making its first CC test. He is good, real good and Indycar fans should welcome he back. Hope to see him at LB this year.

jimispeed

3rd February 2011, 04:03

ICWS

3rd February 2011, 07:38

From what I've heard, it sounds like Dale Coyne is planning to run a two-car team: Martin Plowman racing a full schedule in one of the cars, and Bourdais and Alex Lloyd sharing the other car with Bourdais racing on the road and street courses and Lloyd racing the on the ovals. Bourdais apparently can't run the full schedule due to having an existing contract with the Peugeot Sport team in the Le Mans Series.

Dr. Krogshöj

3rd February 2011, 10:51

The schedules would allow Sébastien to do all seven Intercontinental Le Mans Cup races for Peugeot and all nine road/street races in IndyCar, as well as the Indy 500. It would be an interesting programme. It would be pretty unique to contest the Indianapolis 500 and the 24 Hours of Le Mans within two weeks.

FIAT1

3rd February 2011, 21:08

Nice to see all CART guys together again. Great news , he is a great racer.

nigelred5

3rd February 2011, 21:52

Nice to see all CART guys together again. Great news , he is a great racer.

It would be wouldn't it. Maybe when we get a new car it will feel different, but Indycar still just doesn't have the same feel as CART/Champcar and I don't get the same charge or excitement as I did back then. I'm excited abotu finally having a race in Baltimore, but I'm nowhere near as excited as I used to be about a cart event. I think ALOT has to do with the revolving door of drivers everywhere, but I admit some of it is age. I'm just not a kid anymore.

MAX_THRUST

3rd February 2011, 22:28

nigelred5, I know how you feel.....

ICWS

4th February 2011, 07:23

Yes, it's great for IndyCar to get former Champ Car guys like Sebastien Bourdais, Paul Tracy, Alex Tagliani, Oriol Servia, Justin Wilson, and Graham Rahal rides in the series this season. All of these guys are great racers who will present great competition on the road/street courses against the Penske and Ganassi drivers. I can't say the same for ovals though; Roger Penske's and Chip Ganassi's drivers are still the favorites on most of the oval tracks.

With Bourdais, I think if he was put into one of Penske's or Ganassi's cars, he would have a good chance to dominate the series (like winning half of the season's races). He was almost unstoppable on the road and street courses in Champ Car, and he also won a few oval track races (Lausitzring, Las Vegas, Milwaukee). Being in one of Dale Coyne's cars isn't going to allow him to be as fast as he was in Champ Car, but he may be in contention for podiums; maybe even wins under certain circumstances.

nigelred5

4th February 2011, 12:45

I will say, one of the most amazing oval drives ever was his race at Lausitzring. He was everywhere. I still remember him running thtrough the grass, never breaking stride and carrying on like it was nothing.

Pat Wiatrowski

4th February 2011, 19:17

I think we need to wait and see who Dale gets as an engineer and the crew.

Chamoo

4th February 2011, 20:05

I think Bourdais can elevate DC's road course program to get them another win. Its too bad Watkin's Glen isn't on the schedule this year, I'd put Seabass and Coyne as the favorites to win it (unless of course, he lines up alongside PT to start the race).

I think what you are seeing a lot of teams doing, especially the old CCWS teams, is placing themselves in strong positions for 2012 when the new cars and engines will level the playing field out a little bit.
The level playing field and optimism for a stronger TV package in 2012 are probably encouraging the smaller teams to go out and get drivers like Seabass, PT, SDS, in an effort to secure strong sponsorship and talented personnel (including drivers) for when this series seems like it is going to take off.

ICWS

4th February 2011, 22:03

Good point, Chamoo. And it is a good thing if this is indeed the case. The more IndyCar stays clear of ride-buying drivers and replacing them with drivers like Bourdais, Tracy, Rahal, Servia, etc., the more the series will appear mature, professional, and legitimate to be to the hardcore race fans along with new fans coming on-board.

Chamoo

4th February 2011, 22:44

garyshell

4th February 2011, 23:37

Starter, I would not classify these guys as ride buyers. This argument has been had before, is a guy with real talent who brings a cheque a ride buyer? If so, Rahal is a ride buyer. People aren't referring to the son of stache in that sense.

I agree, if someone does the leg work to find a personal sponsor, I just don't see that as being a "ride buyer". I see it as someone who is being pro-active, and smart. To me a ride buyer is someone who puts up their own or their families money for a ride.

Gary

ICWS

5th February 2011, 02:42

Starter,

You're talking in the technical sense of what ride-buying is. Yes, Paul Tracy may be paying for his ride, but if money wasn't an issue he would definitely be welcomed to any IndyCar team. I don't think you can say the same for people like Milka Duno.

Chamoo, Garyshell, and I are subjectively defining ride-buyers as being drivers who get chosen to race for a team due to the money they bring moreso than the talent they have. We wouldn't consider Paul Tracy and Graham Rahal as ride-buyers in this sense. Both guys have a lot of talent that any race-team owner would love to have. It's just that they need to bring some money to be able to race for one of these teams, due to the teams lacking funding of their own. But like I said, if money wasn't an issue, these two guys would have no problem finding a ride with any IndyCar team.

garyshell

5th February 2011, 04:42

Sorry, Ride buying has nothing to do with talent or lack thereof. It has to do with how that drive was paid for.

If the team comes to you, and says we want you to drive the 'Greasy Pizza Special' foe X dollars, then you are not a ride buyer. If you go to the team with the money, no matter how good you may or may not be, by definition you're a ride buyer.

I understand that definition but I don't agree with it. That definition is too broad based. There is some nuance in the differences.

There are sponsors out there who wish to be associated with a particular driver, not a particular team (because of the drivers skills and personality). So they sign a sponsorship/personal service contract with the driver and then the driver shops around for a team. To me that is the driver buying the services of a team, not a driver buying a ride.

There are other "drivers" who obtain money thru personal relationships, family, trust funds etc and go shopping for a team. Those are ride buyers.

Gary

Jag_Warrior

5th February 2011, 05:07

Sorry, Ride buying has nothing to do with talent or lack thereof. It has to do with how that drive was paid for.

If the team comes to you, and says we want you to drive the 'Greasy Pizza Special' foe X dollars, then you are not a ride buyer. If you go to the team with the money, no matter how good you may or may not be, by definition you're a ride buyer.

I have to agree with that^^^

I understand that people don't like the term "ride buyer" to be associated with certain drivers, because it's come to have a negative connotation, or has been associated with slugs. But to be honest, it is what it is. Whether it's Graham Rahal and Paul Tracy or Lewis Hamilton and Sebastien Vettel, if the only way a driver can get the seat is by "bringing a budget", then he is a ride buyer, IMO. Making an uber talented driver bring money to the table doesn't say anything bad about him. It just means that the environment (or team) is too commercially weak for sponsorship to be found independently. Penske could offer Milka Duno or Dr. Jack a paid contract, but that wouldn't make either of them "talented" or "worthy"... now, would it?

garyshell

5th February 2011, 06:02

I have to agree with that^^^

I understand that people don't like the term "ride buyer" to be associated with certain drivers, because it's come to have a negative connotation, or has been associated with slugs. But to be honest, it is what it is. Whether it's Graham Rahal and Paul Tracy or Lewis Hamilton and Sebastien Vettel, if the only way a driver can get the seat is by "bringing a budget", then he is a ride buyer, IMO. Making an uber talented driver bring money to the table doesn't say anything bad about him. It just means that the environment (or team) is too commercially weak for sponsorship to be found independently. Penske could offer Milka Duno or Dr. Jack a paid contract, but that wouldn't make either of them "talented" or "worthy"... now, would it?

I think it has more to do with a shift away from the team being the focus and the drivers becoming the focus. I think much of that comes from the NASCAR push to make the drivers the PR/marketing center of attention. And honestly lots of folks (including me) here have been saying that is something that IndyCar needs to do. I believe that Graham is the perfect example of that, he and his management team realized HE is what the sponsors want to sponsor not some team. And he was smart to capitalize on that.

But I still don't think that makes him a "ride buyer", as I said before, I think it makes him a buyer of team services. He has a ride, he just needed a team to provide equipment and personnel.

Gary

jimispeed

5th February 2011, 08:05

slorydn1

5th February 2011, 14:54

By your interpretation, Milka is NOT a ride buyer.The problem here is not my definition of ride buying, which is completely accurate, it's the use of "ride buyer" as a pejorative term toward less than talented drivers. There have always been ride buyers and some of them have been quite good. Almost every driver was a "ride buyer" somewhere during their career. Let's find a more accurate term for the hapless, no talent hacks that inhabit the bottom third of the grid.

(Hapless, no talent hack would work but it takes too long to type. :D :p )

Hey, Starter, you did it!!! You came up with the perfect compromise!

(H)apless (N)o (T)alent (H)ack, or HNTH for short! Brilliant!

Alot easier to type, and avoids any further arguments as to what a ride buyer is or is not.

In all seriousness, though, ride buying in and of itself is not neccesarily a bad thing, especialy when said buyer ends up amounting to something in his/her career.

We actually do see some ride buying in NASCAR, but we call these people "team owners". These are drivers who have basicly out lived their usefulness to the regular teams and the scratch some money together and start their own team-and rarely do they amount to much.

I think what gets everyone bent out of shape about ride buying is when a decent ride is mired in the back of the field by a HNTH (there, I used it) who just ends up being a moving chicane when there are talented drivers sitting on the sidelines without rides. That doesn't do much for me, either. It's just unfortunate that open wheel racing in the US has sunk to the economic level that this has become a necessity to keep a full grid of cars out there.

anthonyvop

5th February 2011, 16:30

What rep does he have other than his CART championships?

Gary

Wins in the LMS, ALMS and Superleague Formula. Two 2nd places at LeMans. Official lap record at the 24 hours of Sebring.

Jag_Warrior

5th February 2011, 18:12

I think it has more to do with a shift away from the team being the focus and the drivers becoming the focus. I think much of that comes from the NASCAR push to make the drivers the PR/marketing center of attention. And honestly lots of folks (including me) here have been saying that is something that IndyCar needs to do. I believe that Graham is the perfect example of that, he and his management team realized HE is what the sponsors want to sponsor not some team. And he was smart to capitalize on that.

But I still don't think that makes him a "ride buyer", as I said before, I think it makes him a buyer of team services. He has a ride, he just needed a team to provide equipment and personnel.

Gary

In years past, the drivers in this sport were the focus. From Mario and A.J. to Zanardi and Montoya later on. Now, it seems there is little focus on the teams or the drivers (other than "lil you know who"). IMO, any shift that's taking place now isn't because the IRL has stumbled upon some new business strategy. It's because the ratings are in the toilet and sponsors are shying away from situations where the required investment is greater than any potential ROI.

The issue that I tend to have with these ride buying/team services situations is those types of sponsors seldom do any meaningful activation. They usually just put in enough money for the driver to have a ride and draw a stipend, but seldom do you see them running TV ads or doing anything else. And let's face it, the IRL needs exposure like a drowning man needs a breath of air.

Don't get me wrong... I'm very happy that Graham has a ride for the coming season (no matter how it's being funded). But if the model going forward is that drivers will have to bring funding to get a ride in the IRL (seemingly pretty close to where we are now), I wouldn't expect to see that many (top) drivers breaking their necks to get here. If a guy has to have an MBA or a marketing degree, in addition to being able to wheel a car, I think what we're likely to get more of are the Dr. Jacks and Milka Dunos of the racing world. Senna, Schumacher and many other great drivers had to INITIALLY bring a budget. But after that, they expected to get paid (once they proved their worth).

But I hope it works out for Graham. He seems like a nice enough kid. I have NO USE for his father, but I wish him good luck.

Edit: To address the OP, great news that Bourdais may be rejoining AOWR. I wasn't a big fan of his when he was here before. But as initial testing seems to have shown, that mofo can wheel a car! In just decent equipment, I think he'll be able to run at the sharp end of the grid right off the bat (at least on road courses).

DBell

5th February 2011, 19:09

In years past, the drivers in this sport were the focus. From Mario and A.J. to Zanardi and Montoya later on. Now, it seems there is little focus on the teams or the drivers (other than "lil you know who"). IMO, any shift that's taking place now isn't because the IRL has stumbled upon some new business strategy. It's because the ratings are in the toilet and sponsors are shying away from situations where the required investment is greater than any potential ROI.

The issue that I tend to have with these ride buying/team services situations is those types of sponsors seldom do any meaningful activation. They usually just put in enough money for the driver to have a ride and draw a stipend, but seldom do you see them running TV ads or doing anything else. And let's face it, the IRL needs exposure like a drowning man needs a breath of air.

Don't get me wrong... I'm very happy that Graham has a ride for the coming season (no matter how it's being funded). But if the model going forward is that drivers will have to bring funding to get a ride in the IRL (seemingly pretty close to where we are now), I wouldn't expect to see that many (top) drivers breaking their necks to get here. If a guy has to have an MBA or a marketing degree, in addition to being able to wheel a car, I think what we're likely to get more of are the Dr. Jacks and Milka Dunos of the racing world. Senna, Schumacher and many other great drivers had to INITIALLY bring a budget. But after that, they expected to get paid (once they proved their worth).

But I hope it works out for Graham. He seems like a nice enough kid. I have NO USE for his father, but I wish him good luck.

Edit: To address the OP, great news that Bourdais may be rejoining AOWR. I wasn't a big fan of his when he was here before. But as initial testing seems to have shown, that mofo can wheel a car! In just decent equipment, I think he'll be able to run at the sharp end of the grid right off the bat (at least on road courses).

Quoted for emphasis. I couldn't agree more. When guys with credible and winning resumes have to bring money, that shows where the series is commercially. When that changes, then I'll believe that the series is truly on the road to recovery.

garyshell

5th February 2011, 19:40

Wins in the LMS, ALMS and Superleague Formula. Two 2nd places at LeMans. Official lap record at the 24 hours of Sebring.

Those are his stats, what REP does he have?

Gary

Lousada

5th February 2011, 21:34

Those are his stats, what REP does he have?

Gary

http://www.martius.nl/wp-content/uploads/robert_eerste.jpg

NaBUru38

5th February 2011, 23:35

garyshell, you mentioned it: four-time Champ Car driver, top 10 among major American open-wheel wins. I'm not counting his endurance achievements because I'm talking about this side of the ocean, because most Americans don't care much about endurance racing, and because it's more of a team sport than open-wheel racing.

Bourdais dominated a failing championship, ok. His reputation is far from Dario's or Unser's, sure. But if he rund 12th in IndyCar with this field, he will lose that little reputation of a tetra-champion. I'm not sure if he wants that.

methanolHuffer

7th February 2011, 16:05

Finances in major sports are so complex to begin with, I dont know if any two drivers have the same arrangements.

Some times money moves around like in a shell game, too.

nigelred5

7th February 2011, 22:41

I think "Ride buying" is much more common business plan in all european forms of racing. The driver is expected to shop for the sponsorship and is expected to bring the money to the team. These days, only the very highest teams like McLaren and Ferrari is that the exception rather than the rule, and I believe one can argue that to some extent, even that isn't a given. There's a lot of money that follows(ed) drivers like Schumacher and Alonzo around from team to team and it gets hard to be sure which is driving which move. Santander is a good example. Santander money clearly goes where Fernando Alonso goes. Is he a ride buyer?

garyshell

8th February 2011, 06:32

What he said ^.

Gary

Jag_Warrior

8th February 2011, 19:43

Santander is a good example. Santander money clearly goes where Fernando Alonso goes. Is he a ride buyer?

No, but I see your point. Once you start talking about top drivers, I don't think there's much doubt. Would McLaren and Ferrari have hired Alonso, even if Santander was not following him around? I think they would have. Plus, McLaren didn't ask Hamilton to "bring a budget" once Alonso and Santander left (McLaren actually released both the driver and the sponsor without protest). But would Williams have hired Pastor Maldonado, even if commrade Hugo had not written a check to Frank? I think not. Teams and series that are hard up for money will look at the $ first and the level of talent second. My guess is, Williams would have preferred to keep Hulkenberg... but they're apparently struggling financially, so that wasn't an option.

To me it's pretty clear: if the driver would not have been hired without showing up with a check and/or sponsor in his pocket, then that driver is a ride buyer. That doesn't mean that he's a bad person or a bad driver. I think all we're doing at this point is playing a game of semantics. With all due respect to those who don't like the term "ride buyer", it is what it is. Even if you're Lewis Hamilton or Sebastian Vettel, if you have to give the team owner a check before he'll let you race the car, then you are a ride buyer.

nigelred5

8th February 2011, 22:23

I wouldn't necessarily say Hamilton is a perfect example since they have essentialy owned and developed him since he was 12. I guess the biggest question is who is actually paying the driver's salary if there is a salary at all. In F1, I believe it's fairly common that their sponsor/ sponsorship is actually paying them. I think where the ride buying is distinguished is, is the ride buyer actually even being paid more than a marginal salary to be in the car.

Jag_Warrior

9th February 2011, 10:31

There is definitely a salary (and a contract) in Hamilton's case. He signed a 5 year, $110 million+ contract with McLaren in 2008. Interestingly enough, there was speculation that the deal had a bonus clause that would award him an additional $16-$20 million for a World Drivers Championship. And of course, he won the WDC in that very year. :s mokin: But whether it was a million or a $20 million bonus, Lewis' deal is with McLaren, not the sponsors. If all of the sponsors leave tomorrow, McLaren still owes him whatever is left on his contract. If he was a ride buyer, then if his sponsor failed to send a check, he'd be out of a ride. We hear about those stories all the time. The one that I got a kick out of was Tristan Gomendy (sic?). After his check didn't arrive (or failed to clear), the PR puff piece said that he had a "visa problem", and that's why he would fail to make future races. I suspected that the problem was more with American Express. :D

I'll tell you one driver where it gets VERY murky (IMO): Danica Patrick. Does she (or her management team) bring the sponsors? Or do the sponsors pop up because she's going to be in a particular team's car? We know she is Go Daddy Bob's girl. But what about Tissot watches? Just by what I've read, they pursued her more than she pursued them. She's an odd case though. I don't think any of us (well, maybe one ;) ) thinks that she's in NASCAR or even the IRL based purely on her talent. But lil "Paris Hilton, Jr." does get LOTS of attention, and that's really what sponsors are after. They're not in this to pick the next hot driver. They'll take a slug, as long as the slug can get them lots of eyeballs (ROI).

But anyway, all I'm saying is that the term "ride buyer" doesn't bother me, no matter who it applies to. And I think that if this is a trend for the future, it is a terrible trend. Just look at Williams GP. A once great team, that has had some of the best drivers in the history of racing at one time or another, is now reduced to having to take a check from a guy who won the GP2 championship in a weak year. A guy, who if he'd stayed in GP2 much longer, should have been placed in the senior citizen division. And who lost out? A truly talented youngster (who soundly beat him when they were on the same team), but one who wasn't able to "bring a budget". Sure, racing is a business. But when pencil pushers begin deciding who gets to race and who doesn't... "Houston, we have a problem."