The Good, the Bad and the Ugly-2010

[EagleEye]

In memory of Earl Ma, who I think started this somewhere. Happy New Years to everyone!

The Good-

Randy Bernard. Hard working, full of energy and "gets it" better than any OW leader since Tony Hulman. Given the keys in order to fix the mess made by TG, Bernard has a keen sense of what the past was about, and seems to understand the the mistakes that were made, and what needs to be done to correct them.

The series and its members are ready to follow you sir, so lead on!

American Dirvers. As the year came to an end, Graham Rahal, JR Hildebrand and Charlie Kimball secured full time rides for 2011, joining Danica, Marco and RHR. Part-timer Ed Carpenter will compete for SFR. Seven american drivers, six full-time, is a very solid number and bodes well for the series. We can only hope the group can do well, and with Ganassi, Panther and AA, they should.

Dario Franchitti. Dario just keep getting better with time. He can still be the rabbit, fast out of the box, or lay back and wait as he did time and time again. He carries the spirit of lost friend Greg Moore and hero Jim Clark very well.

Will Power. Amazing to think back when Penske chose Will over Justin Wilson, and others to be the teams third "part time" two years ago. From the start, the humble and talented Power is alwasy fast and one has to wonder how far he can go once he gets a bit more comfortable on ovals.

Chip Ganassi. No one could have seen the great year that Ganassi would have this year, save for those who know how hard Chip pushes the team's abilities. First, the key hires over the years, with great people placed in positions of imense responsibilities. While Chip can be at times being Frugal, he is willing to do and spend what it takes to extract the best from man and machines. The cars and teams are always brilliantly prepared and his ability to maintain long time sponsors only help the team and any series in which he takes part. Funding of the Delta Wing shows how much he cares about the future of the sport, while rewarding the past.

AJ Foyt. Always a man of his word, kept Vitor's seat for him for 2010.

The Bad-

The Weather. I do not believe in the global warming myth, since the hottest global temp on record was 1998, and the planet has been in a cooling trend since 2002 but the rain and weather did not help in the build up to the May. Poor ratings tend to be even worse on Monday.

There is not much the series can do, but the frustration for teams is that earlier start times could allow for a race to get under way prior to the bad weather. Just saying....

Versus. Great TV coverage, on a network most are unaware of. While it is easy to blame versus, the ratings (see The Ugly) are not much better on network TV. The good news for 2011, is there will be more races on network TV, with the series promoting the series even more. Was Randy able to sell the series despite the bad ratings, or is it another pay for network time. Either would be a win for the series.


IRL. It is with good reason that Randy Bernard has discarded the IRL name. Poor and unsteady officiating, terrible safety team, and snobby attitude towards OW history made it an easy change to make. The problem is while there has been a name change and a few personnel changes, one constant remains; Brian Barnhart. I actually have nothing personal against Brian, and in fact, I like him. But, there are things and times when you want to bang your head against the wall. Consistant rulings make for a steady series. Make inconsistant rulings, and you have to wonder what factors are being used to make decisions. Indy was a frustration as our team would go to tech, and come back with requested changes for "gray areas" where the part in question offered no performance advantage, and only provided a $$ savings as we had the part in stock. Then we would see car "X" go by with a variety of parts on it that were by the book, not allowed. Not only would team "X" get to keep the parts on (with the promise of removing before the race) other teams could not add the parts. WTF?

The series, any series, needs consistent and steady leadership. In a year of change for Indycar, Randy needs to make one more change. Keep Brian as part as IMS or something, but lets get some new blood in race control.

The Ugly-

TV Ratings. Nothing screams failure more than poor TV ratings. It does not matter if the race is on ABC/ESPN or Versus, the ratings are so low that they do not register. Anyone taking note would get the feeling that the Indycar series does not exist, save for the Indy 500, which recorded its lowest ratings in years.

This would make some sense of the racing were bad, but in fact the racing has been quite good. There have been good stories about drivers (Power, Wilson, HCN, RHR, etc.) and teams.

Promoting the series and doing so in a credible way remains one of the biggest challenges on Randy's plate. Engaging commercials with drivers, cars, owners ala the Target JV/AZ commercials of yore would go a long way to help. Using the talent pool correctly would also help. Seeing Danica described as a NASCAR driver, is pathetic.

Speaking of NASCAR, I know they have had a decline in ratings as well. But their percentage of decline is greater than the Indycar overall ratings.

Milka- I first met Milka at Nazerath, PA years ago when she was in the Barber pro series in the late '90's. Very nice person, well spoken and mired in the back end of the of the field, maybe 18th or worse. She was one of many young drivers I would meet back in the day, and one who did not stand out at all as far as talent. When she decided to race in the IRL, I was shocked not that she tried, but that the series officials did not stop this pending disaster. She will hopefully be the last in a long line of IRL drivers who should not have been allowed to drive, let alone work on a car (Dr. Miller, Roth, Herb, Hattori, Mack and 75% of the '96 Indy 500 Field). She is so bad, and so clueless it is amazing she has not killed anyone.

KV Racing Technology- A wealthy owner who likes racing just enough to show up to each race and mingle, nothing is more embarrassing than this Rent-a-Ride outfit. This Disgusting excuse for team rests on team management, and not the poor but extremely talented crew and engineers that deserve better. The team will annouce its driver line up for 2011 some time before the season though they passed at Rahal, Kanaan, Wilson, and oh by the way, released Will Power a few years back as well. Disgrace.

Even Wheldon has indicated he would drive for free, winnings only, and the team has yet to take him up on the offer. One can only hope JV can get management to change their idiotic ways...or jump ship and form his own team.

While the team's demolition derby prone drivers were responsible for most of their shunts, there were some that were caused by broken parts...not a good sign.

The team slogs into 2011 evaluating the size of the checks they are being offered (Sato, Mutoh, Viso, and more) instead of the talent that could allow the team to compete.

[FORMULA-A]

Whew. Great post. Can't argue except MUCH MUCH less like of Barnhart then Eagle Eye if just for that moronic moment at INDY. KV is hard to figure out as well. I thought we would hear more with LOTUS getting involved and they don't even show up at the news conference.

[call_me_andrew]

No mention of Chevy or Lotus?

[EagleEye]

No mention of Chevy or Lotus?

GM will be a solid Good in, 2012. Lotus...will have to wait as there are some pending issues that have yet to be sorted. Think USF1..ish.

[MAX_THRUST]

I've only seen highlights of the season on Youtube, and its been a great year. I hope i can see all races this year on the net, and hopefully be at one.

As for Ugly - I saw the Helio penalty at Edmonton. Still don't get what he did wrong there? That was great racing as was the rest of the season.

[call_me_andrew]

As for Ugly - I saw the Helio penalty at Edmonton. Still don't get what he did wrong there? That was great racing as was the rest of the season.

IndyCar defines blocking as the leader taking the inside line into a corner. The rule is completely useless in a scenario where the outside line can pass, but that didn't occour to anyone when it was written.

[Scotty G.]

Seven american drivers, six full-time, is a very solid number and bodes well for the series.

Sorry, but 6 full-time drivers is still a very poor number.

Has to get back to over half again if Indy Racing is to ever get noticed again in America.

3 lowest numbers of American drivers in the history of the Indy 500 have been in 1995, 2009 and 2010.

From 1950 to 1990, most years at Indy saw over 25 Americans in the race.


This can't be a F1-Lite series. It has to be a destination series again for American road racers and American oval racers.

[Scotty G.]

She will hopefully be the last in a long line of IRL drivers who should not have been allowed to drive, let alone work on a car (Dr. Miller, Roth, Herb, Hattori, Mack and 75% of the '96 Indy 500 Field).


There were PLENTY of hacks in CART and Champ Car too. Still plenty in the sport today. And we aren't the evil "IRL" anymore, are we? So lets put the petty "IRL sucks" stuff to bed, shall we? CART died for good reason. They were badly managed, badly run and had nothing after they lost the Indy 500 (which kept them relevent for years). To think this sport wouldn't have eventually went belly-up, without anything TG did, is being foolish. The handwriting was already on the wall in the early 90's and NASCAR was already pulling way ahead (no matter what lies Robin Miller keeps telling).

75% of the 1996 Indy 500 field? Really? I thought those drivers did a nice job not running into one another in their Memorial Day race. :D

Could you name the 25 drivers of the following 33 starters in 1996 that you feel were so "Milka-like"?

Tony Stewart (IRL and NASCAR champion)
Davy Jones (ran in previous Indy 500's)
Eliseo Salazar (was in top 5 in 1995 Indy 500)
Eddie Cheever (ran in previous Indy 500's and in F1)
Roberto Guerrero (record at Indy speaks for itself)
Buddy Lazier (ran in previous Indy 500's)
Al Zampedri (ran in 1995 Indy 500)
Michel Jourdain (later raced in CART and Nationwide)
Buzz Calkins (came from CART ladder)
Davey Hamilton (still racing in Indy 500 today and versatile oval racer)
Mike Groff (ran in previous Indy 500's)
Michele Alboreto (F1 veteran)
Stephen Gregoire (ran in previous Indy 500's)
Mark Dismore (came from CART ladder)
Richie Hearn (CART ladder champion)
Johnny Unser (came from CART ladder)
John Paul Jr (ran in previous Indy 500's)
Lyn St. James (ran in previous Indy 500's)
Jim Guthrie
Arie Luyendyk (enough said)
Scott Sharp (ran in previous Indy 500's and Trans Am champion)
Marco Greco (came from CART ladder)
Robbie Buhl (CART ladder champion)
Paul Durant (Super-Modified ace)
Racin Gardner
Brad Murphey
Johnny Parsons Jr (ran in previous Indy 500's)
Fermin Velez (good sportscar racer)
Johnny O'Connell (good American road racer)
Hideshi Matsuda (ran in previous Indy 500's)
Joe Gosek (Super-modified ace)
Scott Harrington (came from CART ladder)
Danny Ongais (was actually Scott Brayton's qualfied entry)



I'll give you Calkins, Johnny Unser, Matsuda, St. James, Murphey, Gardner, Harrington, Greco and Parsons (only because he was way past his prime; in his prime he was a hell of a racer). Half of those, are from the all-powerful CART ladder system that we are now trying to resurrect. A few (Greco, Matsuda and St. James) were "good" enough to enter the race against all the CART cars and stars in Indy 500 races in the 1990's, so they couldn't be all that terrible. ;)

The rest of the 33 car field in 1996? Not even close to the Roth's, Miller's, Duno's and Herb's you have tried to portray them as. The teams? Not up to par in many cases. The drivers? Pretty damn talented in the sport of racing. Some were at the end of their careers (kinda like Paul Tracy is now). But you are being foolish if you think Michele Alboreto or Roberto Guerrero have any comparison with Shiggy Hattori or Milka Duno. Or some of the great CART stars of the past like Alex Yoong, Guido Dacco, Dean Hall, Jeff Wood, Dennis Vitolo, Jean Pierre Frey and Dale Coyne.

[Dr. Krogshöj]

Sorry, but 6 full-time drivers is still a very poor number.

Compared to last year, it is certainly a step forward. You can't expect every problem fixed overnight. If things are improving from a very poor state of affairs, one can either cheer on and support the process, or can go on bitterly complaining but that will hardly help things improve.


Has to get back to over half again if Indy Racing is to ever get noticed again in America.

I think around 40 percent would be more realistic. Around 1997-1999 CART had about 10-12 American drivers in a field of 26 to 28 cars. And they were the likes of Andretti, Rahal, Al Unser Jr., Vasser, Herta, Pruett, Hearn and Barron, good drivers who were in the field for merit, not their nationality. That should be the case now. John Edwards should be in the field. Not because he's American but because he's a Star Mazda and Formula Atlantic champion.

[Chris R]

I would add to Starters post the fact that Lazier and Cheever became Indy 500 winners is a testament to how bad the fields were -nationality aside.... Lazier was a nice guy with a great personality and a great story - but be was a mid-field guy at best by talent... Cheever was similar from a talent point of view by the time he was racing in the US - perhaps better in his early days and he was not necessarily a very pleasant fellow most of the time.....

I do not think Sharp, Luyendyk, and even Dismore were not all that bad... and sorry, but probably no more than one or two were Milka bad...... I mean c'mon there is not very good and there is BAD.... none of the past their sell by date folks were really dangerous.....

[garyshell]

There were PLENTY of hacks in CART and Champ Car too. Still plenty in the sport today. And we aren't the evil "IRL" anymore, are we? So lets put the petty "IRL sucks" stuff to bed, shall we? CART died for good reason.


Only YOU would turn this into an "IRL" versus CART argument. YOU, ScottyG, are the one who needs to get the freakin' chip off your shoulder and put this to bed. Any time some one dares mention the IRL without first putting on YOUR rose colored glasses, you trot out this same dead horse. Give it a damn rest already. The poor horse is long past rigor mortis.

Gary

[Scotty G.]

Only YOU would turn this into an "IRL" versus CART argument. YOU, ScottyG, are the one who needs to get the freakin' chip off your shoulder and put this to bed. Any time some one dares mention the IRL without first putting on YOUR rose colored glasses, you trot out this same dead horse. Give it a damn rest already. The poor horse is long past rigor mortis.

Gary


Gar, I wasn't the one who made the inflammatory comments in the post. I was just responding to the post. YOU (as usual) have made it personal. And the poster was the one trotting out the tired "dead-horse" IRL rants. But I guess that's OK, huh?

I know its cool now to just dump on anything related to the "evil" IRL. Hope you all get your jolly's on that. But just don't expect everyone to lap it up and not try and refute statements.

[Scotty G.]

Lazier was a nice guy with a great personality and a great story - but be was a mid-field guy at best by talent.



We are talking about their skills at INDIANAPOLIS, remember.

Buddy Lazier was FAR from a "mid-field" talent at Indy. He kinda proved that in 2005, when he kicked most of the fields ass in a one-off Panther car. He was a natural at Indy in his prime. Ask the drivers and team members. They'll tell you the same thing.

The fact that he drove junk until he got into a Hemelgarn car (after Stan Fox's serious injury) in 1996, does not make him "mediocre". He more then proved his worth at Indy and has nothing to be ashamed of.

[garyshell]

She will hopefully be the last in a long line of IRL drivers who should not have been allowed to drive, let alone work on a car...


Gar, I wasn't the one who made the inflammatory comments in the post. I was just responding to the post. YOU (as usual) have made it personal. And the poster was the one trotting out the tired "dead-horse" IRL rants. But I guess that's OK, huh?

I know its cool now to just dump on anything related to the "evil" IRL. Hope you all get your jolly's on that. But just don't expect everyone to lap it up and not try and refute statements.

What a stinking load of BS. Look at EagleEye's quote above and please tell me how this is an inflammatory anti-IRL comment. It is a "anti-unfit driver who happen to have been in the series that the ENTIRE thread was about" comment. As always, when someone says anything derogatory about any aspect of the IRL, you want to turn it into an us against them argument. It is tiresome. Get over it and yourself.

Gary

(BTW my name is GARY not Gar. Trust me, we are not on friendly enough terms for you to be using such a shortened colloquial form.)

[Scotty G.]

Yes I can. As noted below plus the ones you eliminated.

Davy Jones (ran in previous Indy 500's) Past his "sell by date".
Eliseo Salazar (was in top 5 in 1995 Indy 500)
Eddie Cheever (ran in previous Indy 500's and in F1) Waaay past "sell by date".
Roberto Guerrero (record at Indy speaks for itself) Was never the same driver after his big crash.
Buddy Lazier (ran in previous Indy 500's) So so driver on his best day.
Al Zampedri (ran in 1995 Indy 500) CART backmarker
Michel Jourdain (later raced in CART and Nationwide)
Davey Hamilton (still racing in Indy 500 today and versatile oval racer)
Mike Groff (ran in previous Indy 500's) CART backmarker.
Michele Alboreto (F1 veteran) Past "sell by date".
Stephen Gregoire (ran in previous Indy 500's) Very backmarker.
Mark Dismore (came from CART ladder) CART very backmarker.
Richie Hearn (CART ladder champion)
Johnny Unser (came from CART ladder) The genes didn't run true in this part of the family.
John Paul Jr (ran in previous Indy 500's) A pretty good driver once, never the same after he got out of prison.
Jim Guthrie
Arie Luyendyk (enough said) Not enough said - also past "sell by date".
Scott Sharp (ran in previous Indy 500's and Trans Am champion) Down side of career at this point.
Robbie Buhl (CART ladder champion) There's a reason he never had a regular CART ride.
Paul Durant (Super-Modified ace) Unknown quality - no experience in these cars.
Brad Murphey
Fermin Velez (good sportscar racer) ?? Umm, no.
Johnny O'Connell (good American road racer) Fair at best.
Hideshi Matsuda (ran in previous Indy 500's)
Joe Gosek (Super-modified ace) Unknown quality - no experience in these cars.
Danny Ongais (was actually Scott Brayton's qualfied entry) Wasn't he in the Geritol sponsored entry? Waaaaaay past "sell by date".


Knocking down your thoughts, one high curveball at a time:

-Davy Jones was "way past his sell date"? He was 32 years old in 1996. Hardly ancient. He was solid and was solid enough in the early to mid 90's to make the Indy 500, during the all-powerful CART era.

-Eddie Cheever was still at the top of his oval game in 1996. Was on the front-row at the 1995 Indy 500.

-Guerrero was not the same, I agree. But in the same class at Duno or Roth (which is what the original post was about) in 1996? Hardly.

-Lazier was never "so-so" at Indy. Above average there, at worst.

-Groff was only a CART "backmarker", because he drove for Antonio Ferrari's junkyard team and the SLLLLLOW factory Honda team. He was the CART ladder Indy Lights champion in 1989.

-Alboreto was one of those great "F1 stars" we love so much in Indy Cars now. Again, we were talking about Jack Miller types. Not even close.

-Gregoire made Indy 500's in the pre-1996 era.

-Dismore about killed himself in a piece of junk Arceiro car in 1991. He never got a shot in CART after that serious injury.

-John Paul was a solid, naturally talented race driver, before prison and after. Again, not in the Roth class.

-Arie was still a stud at Indy in the mid 90's. Anyone who thinks otherwise, is clueless. He was as fast as anyone in 1995, remember.

-Sharp was all of 28 years old in 1996. Hardly "washed up". He won the Daytona 24 hours after 1995. He had only run in one previous Indy 500 before 1996.

-Buhl was one of your CART ladder champions. I guess they weren't good enough to get hired or noticed by the CART owners back then too.

-Durant was a rookie. Of course he was an "unknown quality". Most rookies at Indy always have been and always will be.

-O'Connell was "fair". Again, is that better then Roth or Herb or Duno?

-Gosek was a rookie. See the Durant post above.

-Ongais was only in the race because of the Brayton death. I don't even count him. Brayton was so lousy at Indy, that he won the pole in 1995 and won it again in 1996. Very "Milka-esque".


Again, the original misguided post said that "75% of the 1996 field had no business in any sort of race car". As we can all see, that was totally ignorant. Were there SOME, that didn't belong? Sure. Just like there were SOME that didn't belong at Indy in 1990 or 1995 or 2000 or 2006 or 2010 too.

You CART-slurpers have every right to feel great about your series and even take a few shots at the IRL, every now-and-then. The IRL had its flaws that deserved criticism. But at least get your facts straight. The truth can be a kick in the 'nads' sometimes, when you are called out with actual facts. :p

CART had some great drivers and great racing. The IRL had some great drivers and some great racing. Now the ICS has some great drivers and some good racing (hasn't been that great in the past few years). We need to build on that and make the sport as great as possible.

You don't want a Milka or a Guido Dacco in the series? Don't license them. Pretty simple.

[Scotty G.]

Look at EagleEye's quote above and please tell me how this is an inflammatory anti-IRL comment.





"She will hopefully be the last in a long line of IRL drivers who should not have been allowed to drive, let alone work on a car (Dr. Miller, Roth, Herb, Hattori, Mack and 75% of the '96 Indy 500 Field)"



Sounds like a shot at the IRL to me. We all know what it means. This is a constant mantra from the CART faithful. The IRL had all of these unfit, untalented drivers, who sullied the history of the Indy 500. The FACTS are, that there have always been unfit, untalented drivers in the sport, no matter whether it was CART, Champ Car, IRL, USAC or OWRS. Why wasn't Guido Dacco or Naoki Hattori or Prince Charles Nuerenburg or Dennis Vitolo or about 20 others mentioned in the quote?

Go back and look at the list of "all-time worst Indy Car drivers" that recently came out. There is a long list there.

Why weren't they? Because they weren't IRL drivers. Those same sort of hack drivers so derided by some, were a part of CART too.

[Chris R]

The problem with only being good at Indy is that it does not do anything for Indy.... Michael Waltrip and Sterling Marlin were good at Daytona - are they great drivers? Did either one bring the Daytona 500 to a higher level?

I do not think Buddy was a "bad" driver - I just don't think he would have ever won Indy had the rest of the field been of the quality it had been the year before... Yes, he drove junk and never got to prove himself - he also won in what would have been "junk" the previous year - Hemelgarn was never a great team - they were never terrible - but even in the IRL they never set the world on fire on a consistent basis.....

I do not mean to slight Buddy or Eddie - they both won the race against the competition they were against - kudos to both - but it is pretty hard to deny that it is unlikely either WOULD have won had there been no temporary degradation of the field (both in terms of team and driver quality) due to the split....

So, yes, Buddy was a good Indy driver - but that does not mean he was a top notch racer everywhere... and while I generally agree with Scotty's contention that an Indy 500 win does "make" a driver more than any other win - it took a series of great drivers to "make" the Indy 500 and it takes a continuation of a supply of truly great all around racers (from all over the world if need be) to continue to build the legacy of the 500 - too many Laziers and Cheevers win the race in too many situations like that from 1996 to say 1999 or so and even the greatest spectacle in racing will lose some of its lustre and street cred....

In short, the drivers and series need the Indy 500 more on a short term basis than the race needs them - but without a continuous supply of the best drivers coming from the best series the race WILL eventually lose its appeal.... In the long haul, the race needs great drivers and a great series to support it just as much - it just takes a lot longer for the race to become "damaged goods"....

[Chris R]

Sounds like a shot at the IRL to me. We all know what it means. This is a constant mantra from the CART faithful. The IRL had all of these unfit, untalented drivers, who sullied the history of the Indy 500. The FACTS are, that there have always been unfit, untalented drivers in the sport, no matter whether it was CART, Champ Car, IRL, USAC or OWRS. Why wasn't Guido Dacco or Naoki Hattori or Prince Charles Nuerenburg or Dennis Vitolo or about 20 others mentioned in the quote?

Go back and look at the list of "all-time worst Indy Car drivers" that recently came out. There is a long list there.

Why weren't they? Because they weren't IRL drivers. Those same sort of hack drivers so derided by some, were a part of CART too.

You are 100% right - the sport has always had more hacks than talents - but it is futile to deny that 1996 to 1999 (picking a random year when thing started to look up) that the IRL was pretty weak relative to the "norm" - they had less than the best drivers and less than exciting cars (1997-to arguably even today).... As the good teams slowly migrated back to Indy, the IRL picked up its game and by 2001 or 2002 between the rise of the IRL and the fall of CART the fields and equipment of both series were pretty "equal" and then it became a straight up fight over ideology and resentment over a destructive and pointless war..... By the time of the "merge" the IRL was clearly the better series by most measures and today it is more or less the technical equal of CART at its best (I doubt CART today would be any better quality than the IRL today even if there had been no split... it might have been more popular/profitable - but that is about it...)....

[Jag_Warrior]

There were PLENTY of hacks in CART and Champ Car too. Still plenty in the sport today. And we aren't the evil "IRL" anymore, are we? So lets put the petty "IRL sucks" stuff to bed, shall we? CART died for good reason. They were badly managed, badly run and had nothing after they lost the Indy 500 (which kept them relevent for years). To think this sport wouldn't have eventually went belly-up, without anything TG did, is being foolish. The handwriting was already on the wall in the early 90's and NASCAR was already pulling way ahead (no matter what lies Robin Miller keeps telling).

Is anybody here watching The Walking Dead on AMC? Pretty good series, IMO. But anyway, by your reasoning, the IRL has been dead for years, but just hasn't realized it. What you're saying (or how you're saying it) is like a fan of AIG arguing that he can see exactly why GM went bankrupt... while not fully realizing his own position.

This is the fallacy believed by many (and repeated ad infinitum): because NASCAR was gaining in popularity by the early 80's (not the early 90's), that made CART's demise inevitable, even if the IRL/Tony George had never come on the scene. That is a fallacy because a business does not fail just because it is not the market leader. NASCAR's gain did not guarantee CART's failure. Even by the late 90's, Ford and Toyota didn't start to get cold feet until the average rating began dropping below 1.5. It was not necessary for CART to be as big or popular as NASCAR. It was only necessary for CART to meet its customer, stakeholder and fan expectations. Because they didn't do that, they failed. But there was nothing inevitable or fateful about it.

NASCAR's ratings advantage over the IRL is now MUCH greater than it had been over CART in the early 90's, or even CART in the mid 90's (minus the 500). I'm just going by objective data, not emotion.

There's no way to spin the FACT that the Indy 500 posted a record low Nielsen rating in 2010 or that the IRL has never turned a profit in 15 years of operation (AFAIK). But all this aside, we have what we have now. We'll never be able to go back. So we can either watch or not watch - maybe it'll get better, or maybe it won't. But fate and inevitability have NOTHING to do with 2012 or 2013... or any other year. And I thought EagleEye's OP was entirely reasonable. He wasn't picking on the IRL. People need to stop being so sensitive, IMO.

[Scotty G.]

You are 100% right - the sport has always had more hacks than talents - but it is futile to deny that 1996 to 1999 (picking a random year when thing started to look up) that the IRL was pretty weak relative to the "norm" - they had less than the best drivers and less than exciting cars (1997-to arguably even today)....


You are correct.

The big difference between the IRL and CART in 1996 through 1999, were the TEAMS. The TEAMS in CART back then were stronger and deeper and had more money.

The DRIVERS? I'd argue, there wasn't nearly as much difference as some think.

Look at the 1995 field at Indy. King Hiro was in that race. An aging Teo Fabi was in that race. Eric Bachelart was in that race. So was Lyn St. James. So was Carlos Guerrero.

Some of the drivers derided earlier (Zampedri, Sharp, Lazier, Roberto Guerrero, Luyendyk, Cheever, Matsuda, Salazar and Davy Jones) were all in that race.

Look at the 1994 field. Dominic Dobson. King Hiro again. Dennis Vitolo. Brian Till. Marco Greco Checko. Some of those other guys from 1996 were in that race too.

Not saying that the 1996 or 1997 fields were as deep or as talented at the top as the 1992 or 1994 or 1995 fields. That would be foolish. But they weren't nearly as hopeless as some like to remember. Because if you rip the 1996 field too much, you have to rip on the 1994 and 1995 fields too. Because many of those same drivers were in both.

[Jag_Warrior]

By the time of the "merge" the IRL was clearly the better series by most measures and today it is more or less the technical equal of CART at its best (I doubt CART today would be any better quality than the IRL today even if there had been no split... it might have been more popular/profitable - but that is about it...)....

I'm guessing you mean "Tres Amigos/Champ Car at its best", since CART at its technical best had multiple chassis manufacturers (4 or 5?) and 4 engine manufacturers.... with engines in the 900hp range. From what I can gather, the current IRL car is technically in about the same league as a GP2 car (in terms of hp/weight). But yeah, CCWS became a mandated spec series and that's what the IRL is now.

[Scotty G.]

-The problem with only being good at Indy is that it does not do anything for Indy.... Michael Waltrip and Sterling Marlin were good at Daytona - are they great drivers? Did either one bring the Daytona 500 to a higher level?

-I do not mean to slight Buddy or Eddie - they both won the race against the competition they were against - kudos to both - but it is pretty hard to deny that it is unlikely either WOULD have won had there been no temporary degradation of the field (both in terms of team and driver quality) due to the split....

-So, yes, Buddy was a good Indy driver -


-Michael Waltrip and Sterling Marlin are known and will always be known for winning the biggest stock car race on the planet. That is all that matters. They were good at the race that means the most in NASCAR. That means much more then being good at Loudon or Homestead. Same deal as a guy like Justin Wilson who might be really good at a Toronto or a Mid Ohio. That's swell, but in Indy Cars, its about Indy. And I'd rather be Buddy Lazier then Justin Wilson for that reason.

-That's fair. But we haven't had "the best" in Indy Cars in 25 years. If we had "the best", then Jon Fogarty would have been here instead of Dani Patrick. Alex Gurney would have been here. Jon Edwards would be here. Some of the best American oval racers would be here. Currently, we have none.

So do we degrade anyone who has won a Indy 500 in the past 25 years because of that? They have all done it against weaker fields and weaker top talents, then the drivers of the 1960's, 1970's and 1980's did.

-Yes, Buddy was a good Indy driver. That's really the only argument being made.

[Chris R]

I am not ure the fields of the last 25 years were any worse than past fields - the past gets rosier the further away it is... As we have both said - the field has always had as many hacks as real talents.... I don't see how the past was any different.....

You are right about the race making the driver - but the drivers (over many years) also made the race... the legend cannot be sustained by the likes of Waltrip, Marlin, Lazier and Cheever.... Take a guy like Rahal - only a 1 time winner - sure Indy made him a household name (in as much as any of these guys are or ever were "household names") but he made that name more by being a winner outside of Indy - and he made Indy more by being a multi-time champion in his sport. Sure - no Rahal and Indy is still just a big - but if you take away all the Rahals (Rathman, Murphy, Clark, Hill, Donahue, Montoya, Lockhart, Ruttman, Andretti etc. ) than the Indy 500 is significantly less than it would be with them collectively.....

Guys like Lazier, Cheever, Luyendyk, Wallard, Robson, Sullivan, Roberts, etc. just don't build the 500 like these other guys did...

By the same token, guys like Horn, Mays, Mi. Andretti were almost as famous as if they had won the 500 because they DIDN'T....

[garyshell]

Do not feed the trolls!

EagleEye started this thread to talk about the IndyCar year in review. (You remember IndyCar, right? It is the ONLY series that exists at this point.) And then good old ScottyG gets his panties all in a wad because of some off handed comment about Milka not belonging in the series and comparing her to other previous IRL hacks. He then proceeds to hijack the thread and turn it into another one of his tirades of us versus them and how glorious the IRL was and how horrific CART and ChampCar was and how dare EagleEye mention IRL hacks without giving equal time to CART/ChampCar hacks. Well who gives a rats ass? That was then, this is now. The thread was about the past year of IndyCar nee IRL.

Can we take all this other BS somewhere else, another thread maybe or preferably someplace else entirely like TF or some other place I don't bother to visit because all they want to talk about is the IRL/CART war and who was more virtuous. :s nore:


Stats: the original message + 5 others about it, then ScottyG's off topic rant and 19 other messages surrounding it.

Gary

[garyshell]

Gary's point is well taken and, since I'm a Mod, I'm more guilty than anyone else.

Sorry Gar. (Can I call you that?) :D


You bet you can, my friend!

Gary

[Chris R]

fair enough - my bad.... (although I do enjoy these rather pointless discussions.... :D

[Chris R]

good - Randy, close title fight, generally decent racing, new car announced, Chevy and Lotus announced... best season for good news in years

bad - tv package (in terms of market impact). still pretty stagnant technical package. Danica mania continues....

ugly - Milka being allowed to "compete". Andretti Autosport looking pretty weak during post season announcements etc... KV Racing....

[Wilf]

Randy Bernard. Hard working, full of energy and "gets it" better than any OW leader since Tony Hulman.

Foregive my naivete' but did Tony Hulman do something in OW other than promote his own race? Granted, rescuing the speedway is pretty high up there but I was of the opinion most people believed OW was much more than just the Indianapolis 500.

[anthonyvop]

I was of the opinion most people believed OW was much more than just the Indianapolis 500.

More than the Indy 500???

Be prepared to be vilified!!!

[EagleEye]

No IRL driver has won a 500 since the top CART teams started running the Indy 500, and (Robby Gordon should have won in 1999...'nuff said.)

I'm guessing you were either not present or had your head stuck in your, er the sand at the mess that was the 1996 Indy 500. I will not mention the mess that was the 1996 Disney race, which was a miracle at all.

Had there not been a 25/8 rule, the race would have been won by one of the Target Ganassi drivers, and dominated by CART. And to be honest I was being quite generous by saying only 75% of the drivers, as the number that did not belong was probably much higher. I think the others here have done a fair job evaluating the hacker, er, drivers in that race. And I do agree with you that save for Della Penna, Walker and Menard there were no strong teams taking part.

But I have to fill in some facts from your IRL induced amnesia, I think those drivers did run into each other with devastating results (check youtube of the last lap crash of the 1996 500) which is something that is missed by most IRL homers, er, devotees.

True, CART had many ride buyers and hacks in the day. Hated it! Speed covered it well with the top ten list of all time worst drivers for both the IRL, CART, Indycar by several diffferent writers. I agree with every one, though they left off Mack.

My post was about this past year, but I will make a comment on the biggest farce of your post:


The handwriting was already on the wall in the early 90's and NASCAR was already pulling way ahead (no matter what lies Robin Miller keeps telling).

Really? NASCAR, pulling away? Interesting spin, er, point. Let me see, the most watched race in 1995 was, the Indy 500 (with I believe a record TV rating). The number one watched race in 1996 or 1997 (after the split), was the Daytona 500. With rating of about half of the 1995 Indy 500 TV rating. Soon, the 500 would fall behind multiple NASCAR races, again, well after the split.

Indy 500, 1995...all tickets offered by the speedway were sold out in June, 1994. Indy 500, 1997.....tickets available the day of the event....which is still the case today.

The most money paid by a TV network to televise a race series? Indycar, in 1995. Surpassed by NASCAR....again, after the split.

Miller has again and again been spot on. He bashed CART back in the day (do a google) and was equally astute at chastising the joke that was the IRL. There is a good reason (and support) that RB is kicking the IRL name to the curb. There is also a good reason why RB hangs out with Robin....and not just for the fine food at the 'mug-n-bun.

Not trying to pick a fight with you, as you have had some very good posts in the past, that I believe were spot on. This one though, was a miss, wide left!

[SarahFan]

Indy 500, 1995...all tickets offered by the speedway were sold out in June, 1994. Indy 500, 1997.....tickets available the day of the event....which is still the case today.
!

ive attended two 500's...

in 1993 and 2009

I paid more for my 1993 ticket (inside of turn 3) than i did for my front stretch under the canopy at pit entrance ticket in 2009..

I booked a hotel in Kokomo 3 months inadvance (my mother was a travel agent)....I found a hotel 5 minutes from the track 2 weeks before the race in 2009....

Im sure there are multiple factors involved....one of the reasons is relative popularity

[Scotty G.]

ive attended two 500's...

in 1993 and 2009

I paid more for my 1993 ticket (inside of turn 3) than i did for my front stretch under the canopy at pit entrance ticket in 2009..

I booked a hotel in Kokomo 3 months inadvance (my mother was a travel agent)....I found a hotel 5 minutes from the track 2 weeks before the race in 2009....

Im sure there are multiple factors involved....one of the reasons is relative popularity


There was only one race at IMS in 1993. And there was very little TV coverage outside the big 3 networks. And no internet. And...

Its a completely different world today, then 1993. And those imaginary 15 million fans Randy keeps talking about, aren't ever going to be back either.

[Easy Drifter]

The title of this thread refers to 2010. I do not give a pile of stinking brown stuff from the 90's.
We have gone through this same BS umpteen times. It happened. It is over.
Delete the posts that are not relevant and there is not much.
What happened happened. The trick is learn from the mistakes and not repeat them praying to whatever diety you wish for a different result.
Unless people address the thread title this should be shut down.

On a slightly positive note Ma Bell satellite in Canada is going digital. That means I and many thousands more will get TSN2 if we subscribe to get the main sports package which includes Speed and TSN. However to do this we have to take 3 'packages'. I am having a problem trying to pick a 3rd bunch of crap. Even a second 'package' has only about 3 channels I am interested in at all.
My Satellite box is also now junk. Rent or buy basic digital box cheap. Rent or buy HD box expensive. Technoligy costs just pennies. Bent over and not enjoying it.

[Scotty G.]

1. No IRL driver has won a 500 since the top CART teams started running the Indy 500, and (Robby Gordon should have won in 1999...'nuff said.)

2. But I have to fill in some facts from your IRL induced amnesia, I think those drivers did run into each other with devastating results (check youtube of the last lap crash of the 1996 500) which is something that is missed by most IRL homers, er, devotees.

3. True, CART had many ride buyers and hacks in the day. Hated it! Speed covered it well with the top ten list of all time worst drivers for both the IRL, CART, Indycar by several diffferent writers. I agree with every one, though they left off Mack.

4. There is a good reason (and support) that RB is kicking the IRL name to the curb.

5. There is also a good reason why RB hangs out with Robin....and not just for the fine food at the 'mug-n-bun.




First off, I appreciate your contributions here EE. I just didn't like the tone you took to disparage the IRL (which you obviously never held in high regard). I get you were a CART homer. That's the way most of them thunk. But its been proven, that more then 7 or 8 drivers were "capable" of being in the 1996 Indy 500. There were 7 or 8 that didn't belong. The rest? Good enough for then and good enough for races BEFORE the 1996 Indy 500. If all of those guys and gals weren't deemed "good enough" for 1996, what kind of field would the 1995 or 1994 Indy 500 have had? A 18 car field?

But to comment on 6 of your thoughts:

1. Sam Hornish Jr never ran in CART. Neither did Dan Wheldon. Neither did Buddy Rice. They were all IRL drivers.

2. The "mess" in 1996 happened coming to the green up at the Boycott 500 in Michigan. After all the bluster and hot air coming from the "cars and stars" side, seeing half the field in a wad was a tad humerous. Big difference then the 3 or 4 car wreck coming to the CHECKARDS at the Indy 500. That was a typical racing accident that happens almost every year at Indy. You know, sorta similar to the racing accident we saw at the end of the 2010 Indy 500. The Michigan crash-em up derby on Lap 0, was a case of the racing gods deciding to show whose side they were on. Karma got em'.

3. Then why not use those names? There have been a ton of ride-buying hacks in CART and Champ Car over the many years. Some just as bad as Milka or Marty.

4. Because he thinks he can "woo" 8 or 9 disgruntled CW fans back to the sport? Because he thinks changing the name means something? Because he is ignorant? There is no good reason for this. Just some PR hot air, that in reality means nothing. Great the Indy Car series (which most folks have always referred to this style or racing as being anyway) is now the Indy Car series. Whoopty do! Now what? USAC, CART, ICS, IRL? Who cares? Its not a big deal.

5. He wants to keep his enemies close? Randy knows Robin can ruin you, if you get on his bad side. Just look at the personal vendetta he has with Barnhart. The drivers don't have much problem with Barnhart. But its guys like Miller and Oreo, who have wanted Barnhart out for years and hated everything (and I mean EVERYTHING) about the Indy Racing League, that want another "figure" of the IRL gone.

Guess what? Cotman isn't a savior either. He'll be derided just like the many other steward's and race directors have before him. These car owners and higher ups in Indy Car won't ever change. Most still slither from race to race. ;)

[SarahFan]

There was only one race at IMS in 1993. And there was very little TV coverage outside the big 3 networks. And no internet. And...

Its a completely different world today, then 1993. And those imaginary 15 million fans Randy keeps talking about, aren't ever going to be back either.



Did you read the last line

[SarahFan]

Is this a discussion forum or a debate forum?