PT vs JV?

[Mad_Hatter]

Several questions regarding opinions on Paul Tracy and Jacques Villeneuve. Just trying to promote some conversation.

Which one is currently the better driver?

Which one would you choose given a fully funded opportunity?

Would the signing of either make more of a "splash" than the other?

Would either have a championship shot outside of a Penske or Ganassi ride?

Which one would have the most chances of becoming the most hated driver in the series?

In 2012 which one overperforms in an underdeveloped package?

Feel free to add questions...

[Lousada]

Several questions regarding opinions on Paul Tracy and Jacques Villeneuve. Just trying to promote some conversation.

Which one is currently the better driver?
In Indycars that would be PT. Villeneuve hasn't been in a formula car for how long now??


Which one would you choose given a fully funded opportunity?
Personally I prefer Tracy, because he really wants to be here.
JV said himself he could have been in the Lotus ride last year (and subsequently be promoted to Group Lotus F1 team this year!!), but he refused.



Would either have a championship shot outside of a Penske or Ganassi ride?
Nobody outside Penske and Ganassi have a chance for the title.


Which one would have the most chances of becoming the most hated driver in the series?
JV would even be more hated than Danica. PT is not really hated anymore I think.

[Anubis]

Not quite on topic, but I was impressed with JV's Nationwide outings this season. Less so with his V8 Supercar effort, it must be said...

Comparing the two is hard. I like PT as a racer, but can't help thinking perhaps now is the time to step down gracefully? That's not to say he can't still do it, but I think he's at that point where he's going to start being perceived as someone who can't let go, and part time rides aren't going to help with that. For the record, in terms of single seaters, I feel exactly the same way about JV. I'd like to see both of them involved on the team side, but not in F1 in JV's case, as he'd be on a hiding to nothing.

[nigelred5]

Personally I would much prefer to see PT in an Indycar over JV, and I think PT has much more desire left than JV, however I think both need to face reality and bow out of the full time open wheel cockpit gracefully. JV is starting to remind me of Verstappen to be honest. I fully believe most of the rumors about JV in a race seat are simply to make the seat more attractive to ride buyers than an honest desire to put a washed up former champion in the car. If Schummi did so poorly, Villeneuve wouldn't have a prayer. Does anyone REALLY want him in the cockpit after this long? Granted JV has Indycar and F1 championships to back his arrogance, but he's way better in his mind at this point than in reality. I don't think anyone really HATES PT anymore. He's sort of become a Darryl Waltrip in Indycars. A guy many truly disliked, but somehow become the old veteran people root for and end up liking because of his brashness. I just can't see PT owning a team he didn't drive for. To me, JV is simply a driver of the 1990's. LOONG past his shelf life.

IMHO, it's time for both to take up racing Sports Cars and maybe one off Indy 500 rides. I do think both would still be legimate contenders in a top ride at INDY.

[garyshell]

I like PT as a racer, but can't help thinking perhaps now is the time to step down gracefully? That's not to say he can't still do it, but I think he's at that point where he's going to start being perceived as someone who can't let go...

I am not so sure that being perceived as someone who can't let go is such a bad thing. I think that's a badge to be worn proudly. It worked for AJ and Mario. (AJ up to the point that he quit driving, after that not so much. Once he became a team owner he became a consummate A-hole.)

Gary

[DBell]

I am not so sure that being perceived as someone who can't let go is such a bad thing. I think that's a badge to be worn proudly. It worked for AJ and Mario. (AJ up to the point that he quit driving, after that not so much. Once he became a team owner he became a consummate A-hole.)

Gary

I agree with you to a point Gary. Mario was reasonably competitive until he retired. Those last several years of AJ driving at the back of the pack, way off competitive pace, was kind of sad to me. And I wasn't a big Foyt fan.

As for PT vs JV, at this stage give me PT. After those years at BAR, JV lost something. His last few years in F1 were forgettable.

[Anubis]

I am not so sure that being perceived as someone who can't let go is such a bad thing. I think that's a badge to be worn proudly. It worked for AJ and Mario. (AJ up to the point that he quit driving, after that not so much. Once he became a team owner he became a consummate A-hole.)

Gary

I guess it depends how "can't let go" is defined. A few Indy / Canadian one-offs for the fans to cheer is no bad thing, but I'd hate to see him reduced to tooling around in inferior teams simply to make up the numbers and keep the promoter happy. I'm not saying he's anywhere near that point currently, but he's unlikely to be in with a shout for race wins whatever he lands in, so that line is getting closer, and it would be sad were he to cross it. In single seater terms, I think Jacques is already there, which is why I think he should stick to Nationwide / Trucks / ALMS. There's also the issue of letting younger talent have a chance. A lot of folks here bemoan foreign pay drivers hindering up and coming talent, yet doesn't an "old guard" driver looking for a seat he doesn't really need do much the same?

[Mad_Hatter]

PT has had a couple of decent one-offs with KV.

I thought about the old guard vs new talent thing too. But, it's a give and take situation. I'm pretty sure nobody wants a revolving door of rookies like CCWS in its last few years. And I for one would take a veteran of PT caliber over 99% of the guys we've seen come and go.

This year there's a good rookie class who have been grown in the AOW ladder system. Hopefully the best of them will stick around a few years.

I believe JV still has some in the tank too, at least on the Road Courses. A 2nd place finish in LeMans isn't easy too come by...

[Scotty G.]

Both are WAY past their primes. I am not sure why anyone in Indy Car would still want Tracy to begin with. If he doesn't buy his ride, nobody probably would. ;)

I'd choose neither now. Give me Andrew Ranger and Robert Wickens any day, all day.

Tracy was never as good as some think anyway. Especially at Indy (you take 2002 out, where he was nowhere all month and pulled a rabbit out of a hat on raceday and the guy has a awful record in the only race in Indy Cars that truly matters.) Last year was a complete embarrassment, somehow being one of the 3 drivers who started the month in rides to not make the race.

Villenueve was a natural at Indy and would have won the race multiple times, had he stayed in Indy Cars.

[TURN3]

Both are WAY past their primes. I am not sure why anyone in Indy Car would still want Tracy to begin with. If he doesn't buy his ride, nobody probably would. ;)

I'd choose neither now. Give me Andrew Ranger and Robert Wickens any day, all day.

Tracy was never as good as some think anyway. Especially at Indy (you take 2002 out, where he was nowhere all month and pulled a rabbit out of a hat on raceday and the guy has a awful record in the only race in Indy Cars that truly matters.) Last year was a complete embarrassment, somehow being one of the 3 drivers who started the month in rides to not make the race.

Villenueve was a natural at Indy and would have won the race multiple times, had he stayed in Indy Cars.

Laughable, as usual.

[garyshell]

Laughable, as usual.

:up:

Gary

[Jag_Warrior]

Personally I would much prefer to see PT in an Indycar over JV, and I think PT has much more desire left than JV, however I think both need to face reality and bow out of the full time open wheel cockpit gracefully. JV is starting to remind me of Verstappen to be honest. I fully believe most of the rumors about JV in a race seat are simply to make the seat more attractive to ride buyers than an honest desire to put a washed up former champion in the car. If Schummi did so poorly, Villeneuve wouldn't have a prayer. Does anyone REALLY want him in the cockpit after this long? Granted JV has Indycar and F1 championships to back his arrogance, but he's way better in his mind at this point than in reality. I don't think anyone really HATES PT anymore. He's sort of become a Darryl Waltrip in Indycars. A guy many truly disliked, but somehow become the old veteran people root for and end up liking because of his brashness. I just can't see PT owning a team he didn't drive for. To me, JV is simply a driver of the 1990's. LOONG past his shelf life.

IMHO, it's time for both to take up racing Sports Cars and maybe one off Indy 500 rides. I do think both would still be legimate contenders in a top ride at INDY.

^^^ This... pretty much from beginning to end.

[markabilly]

A number of years ago, there was a discovery show about "muscle memory", where the body is reacting to a command from the brain that says go, but the brain is not exactly directing the details of the act.....

they convinced an extremely relunctant Dan Fouts to put on a blind fold, and throw passes to one of his better receivers, using a different route each time, some deep, some short. All that was done, was to shout hut, and then he would throw the ball on timing and "feel"

The result was almost completely perfect passes.....at times even better than when he did not have the blindfold on.
They used some other examples, such as hitting fast balls....and so on.

Another example was simply walking and running......people who have been off their feet for a lenghty period of time, have problems walking and running, until they get "their legs back"


The theory was that over the years and constant use, muscles (or more accurately the nerves controlling the muscles) develope a certain memory, such that it acts without being any concious thinking by the brain on the details.

I suspicion that over the years, reactions begin to fade, but worse, in the absence of constant use, the off-time causes the "muscle memory" to fade. Add in the age factor on re-learning that which was natural, and Rubens due to the absence of a lay-off, might well be now the better driver than Schue

[MAX_THRUST]

Both would be good top names to have in the series.

would prefer to see PT back in the series over JV.

What worries me they would end up being like Little Al Unser. Pt deserves a ride in Indy Car, don't think JV could cope with the competion of drivers in equal equip, he'd have no excuse when he got beat.

[Scotty G.]

Laughable, as usual.

And truthful, as usual. ;)

[TURN3]

And truthful, as usual. ;)

In what manner? Maybe in your own mind. But what happens in your mind is rarely agreeable be even a slight minority. Your "ideas" are generally pretty stupid. The only thing that the rest of us aren't laughing at in your post is the fact they are in fact both past their primes. That much is "truthful".

None of us can speak for JV's recent OW performance obviously but PT has been part-time with some below average teams the past few years and generally has shown pretty well while competing for top 5's and even going for a W in Toronto. So how you or anybody else can suggest he's incapable or whatever at this point in his career shows ignorance on your part, as usual.

A couple other points you stuff your foot in your mouth on, again:

First, PT's 500 performance. I'm not sure off hand how many he's been in, 5 or 6 maybe? A 2nd place with controversy suggesting it should have been a W obviously is the glowing result in those races, last year's qualifying debacle clearly the low. He ran a pretty good race in '09 considering the hole in the tub from Kanaan's accident, up to 3rd was it even with the damage? So if that is the criteria that you judge him by, your boyfriend Sammy doesn't exactly have much more to hang his hat on. Because like you said, aside from that 1 time he pulled the W out of his ass. Are you aware of his record there otherwise? Until his W, his results rival Graham Rahal with several crashes and very few finishes.

Second, to say a guy with 31 career W's was "never as good as people thought he was" only increases the evidence of your ignorance. The vast majority of those wins came when getting wins meant something more than beating your teammate. Emmo, Nigel, Mario, Al, Michael, Zanardi, Montoya, Franchitti, DaMatta, DeFerran, etc....those are the guys he won most of those against. Yeah, you've got a point, he was never really that good.

Scotty there isn't anything wrong with having an opinion but with your credibility, don't you think maybe just shutting up would be in your best interest?

[garyshell]

And truthful, as usual. ;)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWSx0bBiNIs

Just sayin' ...

Gary

[Mark in Oshawa]

In what manner? Maybe in your own mind. But what happens in your mind is rarely agreeable be even a slight minority. Your "ideas" are generally pretty stupid. The only thing that the rest of us aren't laughing at in your post is the fact they are in fact both past their primes. That much is "truthful".

None of us can speak for JV's recent OW performance obviously but PT has been part-time with some below average teams the past few years and generally has shown pretty well while competing for top 5's and even going for a W in Toronto. So how you or anybody else can suggest he's incapable or whatever at this point in his career shows ignorance on your part, as usual.

A couple other points you stuff your foot in your mouth on, again:

First, PT's 500 performance. I'm not sure off hand how many he's been in, 5 or 6 maybe? A 2nd place with controversy suggesting it should have been a W obviously is the glowing result in those races, last year's qualifying debacle clearly the low. He ran a pretty good race in '09 considering the hole in the tub from Kanaan's accident, up to 3rd was it even with the damage? So if that is the criteria that you judge him by, your boyfriend Sammy doesn't exactly have much more to hang his hat on. Because like you said, aside from that 1 time he pulled the W out of his ass. Are you aware of his record there otherwise? Until his W, his results rival Graham Rahal with several crashes and very few finishes.

Second, to say a guy with 31 career W's was "never as good as people thought he was" only increases the evidence of your ignorance. The vast majority of those wins came when getting wins meant something more than beating your teammate. Emmo, Nigel, Mario, Al, Michael, Zanardi, Montoya, Franchitti, DaMatta, DeFerran, etc....those are the guys he won most of those against. Yeah, you've got a point, he was never really that good.

Scotty there isn't anything wrong with having an opinion but with your credibility, don't you think maybe just shutting up would be in your best interest?

Thanks, saves me typing out how PT has more of a record than half the no hopers Scotty figures should have rides based on their passports...

PT may not have much left, but what he has he is willing to put it out there...he isn't driving scared...

AS for JV, who really knows? Last time he was in a competitive ride in an OW car was the year he won the championship......

[Spiderman]

With JV not wanting to drive IndyCars anymore, there is no other choice than Tracy...

[F1boat]

Personally I would much prefer to see PT in an Indycar over JV, and I think PT has much more desire left than JV, however I think both need to face reality and bow out of the full time open wheel cockpit gracefully. JV is starting to remind me of Verstappen to be honest. I fully believe most of the rumors about JV in a race seat are simply to make the seat more attractive to ride buyers than an honest desire to put a washed up former champion in the car. If Schummi did so poorly, Villeneuve wouldn't have a prayer. Does anyone REALLY want him in the cockpit after this long? Granted JV has Indycar and F1 championships to back his arrogance, but he's way better in his mind at this point than in reality. I don't think anyone really HATES PT anymore. He's sort of become a Darryl Waltrip in Indycars. A guy many truly disliked, but somehow become the old veteran people root for and end up liking because of his brashness. I just can't see PT owning a team he didn't drive for. To me, JV is simply a driver of the 1990's. LOONG past his shelf life.

IMHO, it's time for both to take up racing Sports Cars and maybe one off Indy 500 rides. I do think both would still be legimate contenders in a top ride at INDY.

I agree.