Experienced drivers

[jens]

This is second thread I have decided to post today. As there is a "Goodbye thread" for three guys, who have left F1 last year, then I thought that let's talk about other experienced drivers as well. I thought about the title of the thread a bit. I didn't want to put "old drivers", also "drivers passed their time" didn't seem the best choice, so I just put "experienced". :)

Well, once there was an era, when experienced drivers were highly valued and the age between 30 and 35 was said to be the best age for motor racing - age, when driver physically is still in a good form, but also has already got loads of experience. But recently there has been a total mania of young drivers, which has reduced the authority of experienced drivers and there are those, who want the bunch of "old drivers" to leave as quickly as possible.

Well. What are facts? In 2007 the drivers line-up is the youngest of all times! What else do you want? Secondly, we have two rookie-drivers in top teams and even three if we count Kubica as a rookie and BMW as a top team. That is quite a rare phenomenon. The percentage of youngsters is higher than ever before, but people still seem not to be satisfied - does anyone really want to turn F1 into "Junior World Championships", where only under 30-year-olds compete? Among 30+ drivers only Webber and Sato are not wished to "leave as quickly as possible" - maybe because they started as late as in 2002 - although it seems that soon they might be under similar pressure as well. IMO let's give more respect for that group of experienced drivers as well and think about the positive they have given us in F1.

Most drivers have had a disappointing end of career and sadly it seems to be the case for current drivers as well as their machinery seems not to be "good enough". I have always liked to see a driver finishing his career in a positive note. Even if we count Webber and Sato into that group as well, then it looks that only Fisichella in that 30+ drivers group is able to fight for podiums and maybe for a race win. All the others (DC, RB, JT, RS, AW, MW, TS) might just score an odd podium at best if things go that way as they seem to go.

In this thread you may discuss and compare those experienced drivers. You may sum up their career and also express expectations for this season. In a word - talk about whatever that is related to them. :)

[ioan]

It's a general hysteria based on nothing but mass media over hype. In fact it goes as far as to have forum members, on different forums, rating Kovalainen and Hamilton above the likes of Massa, Raikkonen and Alonso, and this even before these youngsters race 1 meter in F1!

For what it concerns me most of the drivers that managed to stay in F1 for several years are way better than these children and would beat them fair and square in equal machinery.

We are at the point where F1 legends like MS, champions like JV and ballsy drivers like JPM are swept under the carpet by F1 fans (and moderators included!) telling us that there are new better drivers (the ones that never raced and proved themselves in F1!).

My opinion is that this is only hysteria based on nothing but hot air!

[zoostation]

im worried that in a few years if your not a world champion by 30, you'll probably be forced out of f1.

which seems a tad sad. lol

[ioan]

im worried that in a few years if your not a world champion by 30, you'll probably be forced out of f1.

Make it 25!

[futuretiger9]

It's true that it's turning more and more into a young man's game, but at the same time there's no substitute for experience. Somehow I fear that the likes of Schumi, DC and Rubens may be the last of their kind, racing in F1 into their mid-30s. I wonder whether Alonso, for example, will race long past his 30th birthday? The pressures and stresses of modern F1, and the increasing trend for youthful drivers, may reduce further the average age of the grid.

[rlenis]

This is because technology is the essence of Formula One as opposed to the 60s, 70s and even the 80s. Why spend 50 million a year on driver salaries when you can groom young ones that will cost only a fraction of that and invest all of that money in performance development instead. This method has already been proven to work by Fernando Alonso and Renault. I now see BMW following their foot steps and in a couple of years they’ll be the ones challenging for both titles.

[Viv]

Somehow I fear that the likes of Schumi, DC and Rubens may be the last of their kind, racing in F1 into their mid-30s. I wonder whether Alonso, for example, will race long past his 30th birthday?
Agreed on this. I think it was Kimi who said he couldn't see himself racing as long as Micheal did. I dunno the reason but if the others feel like this too then we'll have an under-30 grid soon..and any driver even 31 yrs old will be the Grand Old Man of the Paddock

[Ian McC]

It's a general hysteria based on nothing but mass media over hype. In fact it goes as far as to have forum members, on different forums, rating Kovalainen and Hamilton above the likes of Massa, Raikkonen and Alonso, and this even before these youngsters race 1 meter in F1!

For what it concerns me most of the drivers that managed to stay in F1 for several years are way better than these children and would beat them fair and square in equal machinery.

We are at the point where F1 legends like MS, champions like JV and ballsy drivers like JPM are swept under the carpet by F1 fans (and moderators included!) telling us that there are new better drivers (the ones that never raced and proved themselves in F1!).

My opinion is that this is only hysteria based on nothing but hot air!

Indeed, everyone is looking for the next big thing, experience doesn't seem to count for much these days. Though as far as 'swept under the carpet' is concerned, these drivers are no longer in F1 so it seems right for them to move on in the forum as well.

[Erki]

I'm a bit puzzled. :s Who is AW?

[ArrowsFA1]

Indeed, everyone is looking for the next big thing, experience doesn't seem to count for much these days...
Regardless of me doubting Barrichello's future beyond this year, I think you're right. Generally we don't value experience, or at least discard it too easily.


We are at the point where F1 legends like MS, champions like JV and ballsy drivers like JPM are swept under the carpet...
History and Nostalgia (http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=111) is available to everyone. If you'd like to continue discussing these drivers, among many other aspects of F1, then you can do so. If you decide not to visit the History and Nostalgia (http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=111) forum then that's entirely your choice.

[ioan]

I'm a bit puzzled. :s Who is AW?

That should be Alexander Wurz.

[F1boat]

I agree with ioan. Also, Arrows, last year I think that you didn't point the GP 2 forum in the various LH topics.
Whatever. I think that media wants young heroes and that's all. It's all about money and hype, IMO.

[janneppi]

I agree with ioan. Also, Arrows, last year I think that you didn't point the GP 2 forum in the various LH topics.
Whatever. I think that media wants young heroes and that's all. It's all about money and hype, IMO.
I'd say last year Hamilton was much more deserving of a thread than MS is now, he was a driver that would be in F1 where as MS is now history and to some, nostalgy. :)

[ioan]

I'd say last year Hamilton was much more deserving of a thread than MS is now, he was a driver that would be in F1 where as MS is now history and to some, nostalgy. :)

But he was in GP2 not in F1. Let's stick to the rules if we make them.

As for MS being history I would remind people that he is still active part of the Ferrari F1 team. So do we get a sub-forum about F1 team members that are not drivers, too? Just for the sake of not discussing certain drivers?!

[F1boat]

I'd say last year Hamilton was much more deserving of a thread than MS is now, he was a driver that would be in F1 where as MS is now history and to some, nostalgy. :)
he was a GP 2 driver, a would-be, nothing more, but this argument is off-topic. ;)

[ioan]

he was a GP 2 driver, a would-be, nothing more, but this argument is off-topic. ;)

Yes better go back to experienced active F1 drivers. Sorry jens!

[seppefan]

This is because technology is the essence of Formula One as opposed to the 60s, 70s and even the 80s. Why spend 50 million a year on driver salaries when you can groom young ones that will cost only a fraction of that and invest all of that money in performance development instead. This method has already been proven to work by Fernando Alonso and Renault. I now see BMW following their foot steps and in a couple of years they’ll be the ones challenging for both titles.

This is correct and a F1 car is easier overall to drive today than when they had 1000bhp turbos, gears, no traqction etc etc. so the experience counts for less.

[Mikeall]

Experience counts for knowing what to do under pressure, how to manage a race and how to communicate with the team.

New drivers will always get the attention from the media because they are something new to talk about. This year there a 3 new drivers in 3 of the 4 quickest cars and maybe that's what F1 needs right now, a new hero for the masses.

[BeansBeansBeans]

Experience is a valuable attribute, but it isn't a necessity, as Alonso has proved. If an experienced driver has other attributes in his armoury, then he may well be worth his place in F1 (M. Schumacher being the obvious example). However, I don't want to see precious seats on the grid filled by experienced drivers who have nothing left to offer the sport.

[Osella]

It is bizarre that drivers like Davidson, in his F1 career so far, has not been dissimilar to Nigel Mansell, and Nico Rosberg's first year was not that far removed from the results of Ayrton Senna.
Yet if these drivers have not achieved a win before the end of the 1st race (In Davidson's case, he is British remember ;) , or the end of the season (In Rosberg's case) then they are junk, useless and need to be sacked!!!

This is the stupidity of tabloid reporting, and ignorant people commentating on F1. Unfortuantely Ignoramuses seem to be running most big companies these days, and they feel the need to 'move fast to keep up with the latest trends' (this used to be known as panicking, and clutching at straws!).

Therefore the sponsors don't want a 'has-been' like Webber or Button fronting their team, because there'll be someone better around the corner...obviously. :rolleyes:

This is why F1 needs privateer teams and independents, to weed out this kind of jingoistic and ridiculous behaviour from the manufacturer teams. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to have Vettel in F1 this year, but I was lucky enough to experience Andrea De Cesaris at Tyrrell in 1992, and Pierluigi Martini at Minardi in 1993, both 'has-beens' (in todays terms!) but both put in some spectacular performances, and it was great to see that they had been underrated and still had something to offer F1. Not to mention Gerhard Berger in 1997!

Likewise it was thrilling to see just what Karl Wendlinger could do with a crappy March in 1993, same for Capelli in '89, and even Hakkinen for Lotus in 1991, and Zanardi in '93.

These rookies nowadays should be like Davidson and Sutil,starting off small, but it's just stupid to suggest (as it has been!) that Rosberg is useless if he doesn't thrash Wurz this season, and should be dropped. Mario Andretti hardly set the world alight for Parnelli racing...
Look at guys like Hans-Joachim Stuck, and Emmanuel Collard, not considered good enough for F1, and yet both multiple winners in Sportscars and GT's.

Screw GP Masters, let's get back to 32 car grids in F1 where the big boys can run up front, and the experienced guys can battle the rookies in midfield/rear of the pack, fighting each other for the chance to get picked up by a top team, or return to the top in place of the Barrichello's, Ralf's and Trulli's of the grid.

Anyway, that's just what I think ;)

[BeansBeansBeans]

This year there a 3 new drivers in 3 of the 4 quickest cars and maybe that's what F1 needs right now, a new hero for the masses.

You make a good point. Not since the days of Nigel Mansell, and latterly Damon Hill, has a British driver captured the imagination of the wider British public. If Lewis Hamilton were to become a title challenger, maybe we could see F1 grow in popularity in the UK.

[ArrowsFA1]

Screw GP Masters, let's get back to 32 car grids in F1 where the big boys can run up front...
Can you see Toyota (just as an example) signing the likes of Mansell & Cheever for 2008 to make use of their experience? :crazy: :p

[ioan]

You make a good point. Not since the days of Nigel Mansell, and latterly Damon Hill, has a British driver captured the imagination of the wider British public. If Lewis Hamilton were to become a title challenger, maybe we could see F1 grow in popularity in the UK.

You already forgot Button?

[BeansBeansBeans]

You already forgot Button?

No, Button simply hasn't caught the imagination of the wider British public in the same way that Mansell, and to a lesser extent Hill, did during their careers.

[ioan]

No, Button simply hasn't caught the imagination of the wider British public in the same way that Mansell, and to a lesser extent Hill, did during their careers.

You might be right, but it looked otherwise to me, given the media hysteria I witnessed for quite a few seasons already.

[harsha]

i thought the British hype around Button was huge esp when he finally won a race last year :s

[BeansBeansBeans]

Don't get me wrong, British F1 fans and the specialist press are excited by Button and tend to talk up his chances. But in terms of the general British public and mainstream press, there isn't much interest in Button when compared with popularity of Mansell / Hill.

[Osella]

Can you see Toyota (just as an example) signing the likes of Mansell & Cheever for 2008 to make use of their experience? :crazy: :p

I dont think even Cheever Racing want Eddie Under-a in their team! :laugh:
But wouldn't it be great if there was a chance to get Bourdais and Marco Andretti in this year in the Larrousse/March/Scuderia Italia-type midgrid operations we used to see, alongside someone like Wurz or even Zonta, to get a contemporary first-hand view of just how fast they are? :up:

[ClarkFan]

I think a key question is who the experienced driver is. There really are two categories of 30+ - "experienced and still on form" vs. "already seen his best days." MS clearly belonged in the former group, while I think that DC, RB, RS, JT and GF are probably in the latter. The latter group are also a collection of drivers who were faced by the challenge of competing against MS, and who, for a variety of reasons, were not up to that challenge. The only driver of that generation who fully met the challenge retired in 2001 - MH.

It is also normal to get short periods when a whole generation of drivers leave the scene in a fairly short period, like in the early 1990's. The newbies will become the old hands soon enough, so let's just watch the transition and enjoy it.

ClarkFan

[Easy Drifter]

First W.C. in his 40's. Last of 5 at age 47. Too old? You tell me who.

[BeansBeansBeans]

First W.C. in his 40's. Last of 5 at age 47. Too old? You tell me who.

Fangio, obviously. But that was a completely different era.

[ClarkFan]

First W.C. in his 40's. Last of 5 at age 47. Too old? You tell me who.

Different era. And he didn't start in Europe until he was 38, so it was still only a 9-season run in all (same as Stewart).

Once M Schumacher left, the remaining "experienced" crowd have the organizing characteristic that they have spent many year demonstrating that none of them will be World Champion. (OK, JV was the exception, but he had spent 9 seasons demonstrating that he wouldn't be World Champion again.)

Time for a new lot, to see if any of them are up to challenging Alonso and Kimi.

ClarkFan

[jens]

I'm not sure about Barrichello and Coulthard, but in Trulli's and Ralf's case I believe that if the car only allowes them, then neither of them has said his last word in motor racing yet. And Fisichella is a team leader in a top team for the first time in his career - that's hardly something you can call "passed his time".

Interesting that Wurz is usually not mentioned in that group, "who should leave". Is the 6-year-brake really the factor here? If for example the guys from the previously mentioned group of five had left F1 after 2000 and now rejoined, then most of you would probably say: "Oh glad to see him back - he seemed a talented driver then and didn't show his full potential."

So is the factor really racing experience - the number of races, where participated. And what more races someone has driven, that less people would like to see him F1? I sometimes feel that people just get bored to see the same faces all the time and want as many changes as possible to get some more excitement without even calculating whether that would be a better choice or not.

IMO rookies must first prove that they are even at the same level as the experienced drivers before nominating them as future champs.

[jens]

http://www.autosport.com/news/grapevine.php/id/59700

As some have thought here that experience doesn't count much in Formula One these days and experienced drivers don't have anything to offer and should leave, then it looks like team bosses have a different opinion. Arguably Fisichella, Barrichello and Coulthard - all of them are likely to continue with their current teams.

[Zico]

I may be totally off the mark with this but going back to the initial thread point... couldnt the quality of the sims they practice with these days be the answer? I know LH had to do a crazy amount of hours on the simulator since joining McLaren... experience that wasnt available to previous generations of drivers.. well, not to the same degree of realism that they have these days.. at least.

Thoughts?

[F1boat]

Can you see Toyota (just as an example) signing the likes of Mansell & Cheever for 2008 to make use of their experience? :crazy: :p

I imagine Cheever crashing in Lewis, while Hamilton laps him.
And then saying, "Hey, I won the Indy 500".

[wmcot]

However, I don't want to see precious seats on the grid filled by experienced drivers who have nothing left to offer the sport.

But I don't want to see 22 rookies, either.