2011 Regional Rallies Championships Sporting Regs

[bt52b]

2011 Regional Rallies Championships Sporting Regs
http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/440E1C8EE1541DACC12577FC005FE97C/$FILE/2011_RRR_Regs&Appx.pdf

[PLuto]

Yes, Todt, Chandler, Berger and Richards enforced 1.6T into regulations despite dfiance other people. But it is still politics, big pushes, big money. FIA is still the same (or better some of the top people at FIA has the same manners...

[wwbroe]

Yes, Todt, Chandler, Berger and Richards enforced 1.6T into regulations despite dfiance other people. But it is still politics, big pushes, big money. FIA is still the same (or better some of the top people at FIA has the same manners...

Or rather "NO" manners, quite crazy decision in my opinion. :D

[OldF]

I think it was this DR was appealing to. If FIA wouldn’t have change the decision they’ve violated their own rules.

“Changes to sporting rules and to all regulations other than those referred to in b) above are published at least 20 days prior to the opening date for entry applications for the championship concerned, but never later than 30 November each year.”

http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/9DC6A72C1F1EBDE0C12577D80037C03D/$FILE/v2_CSI_AG_Nov2010_EN.pdf

But also looking at the paragraph b)/(i), the technical regulations should have been ready by 30th of June but I don’t think the final WRC engine rules was set by that date. The restrictor size for super production cars haven’t been decided yet and that’s an issue IMO has “substantial impact on the technical design of the vehicle and/or the balance of performance between the car”.

But anyway, what do you think about S2000 1.6T cars. IMO they’re a double-barreled thing. On the other hand it’s good that with same basic car a driver can attend both regional and WRC events. On the other hand again it seems that the super production cars (S2000 1.6T) will be a lot more expensive compared to S2000 NA cars.

If a super production Mini’s price is about 405.000 € and the price for a S2000 NA car is 300.000 € at the most, the difference is over 100.000 €. Doing some calculations with figures Eppel gave few years ago, the price of a S2000 NA engine is about 50.000 € (40.000-45.000 € few years ago) and subtracting that from 300.000 €, the price of a S2000 without an engine would be 250.000 €. 405.000 – 250.000 = 155.000 €. IMO 155.000 € for a turbo direct injection engine and a gearbox that can cope with the higher torque of a turbo engine is quite a lot! Knowing that some of the current S2000 cars already use a gearbox that can cope with higher torque than necessary, the 105.000 € would be alone for the engine.

Your thoughts?

Here is a copy of the article 199.

199. Amendments to regulations:

The FIA may make such changes, as it deems necessary to the regulations. Such changes will be published and will come into effect in accordance with the following provisions.

a) Safety
Changes that the FIA makes to the regulations for safety reasons may come into effect without notice or delay.

b) Technical design of the vehicle

(i) d Changes to technical regulations or to Appendix J, adopted by the FIA, will be published no later than 30 June each year ancome into effect no earlier than 1 January of the year following their publication, unless the FIA considers that the changes in question are likely to have a substantial impact on the technical design of the vehicle and/or the balance of performance between the cars, in which case they will come into effect no earlier than 1 January of the second year following their publication.

(ii) Changes concerning Formula One come into effect in accordance with the regulations specific
to that category.

c) Sporting rules and other regulations

Changes to sporting rules and to all regulations other than those referred to in b) above are published at least 20 days prior to the opening date for entry applications for the championship concerned, but never later than 30 November each year. Such changes cannot come into effect before 1 January of the year following their publication, unless the FIA considers that the changes in question are likely to have a substantial impact on the technical design of the vehicle and/or the balance of performance between the cars, in which case they will come into effect no earlier than 1 January of the second year following their publication. d) Shorter notice periods than those mentioned in b) and c) may be applied, provided that the unanimous agreement of all competitors properly entered for the championship or series concerned is obtained.

[Mirek]

Fabia S2000 engine Evo 2 (2010) costs 45 thousand Euro. X-Trac 532 gearbox costs 22 thousand Euro and can work with 600 Nm of torque.

[OldF]

That would mean in the case of Skoda a margin of 105.000 € -(45.000 € + 22.000) = 38.000 € which is 36% margin. But in the case that only the engine has to be replaced, the difference would be 60.000 €. The margin would then be 57% which is quite good business.

The 36% margin is not so very high (both engine and gearbox) considering these are special equipments. While I’m self been working some time with repairing and maintenance different equipments, I don’t see a margin of 36% so big comparing with the margin the companies I’ve worked with charged for the spare parts.

[PLuto]

30 mm restrictor for S2000 1.6T in 2011 yesterday officially approved - http://www.autosport.cz/clanek.php?cl=11727

[morganmilan]

30 mm restrictor for S2000 1.6T in 2011 yesterday officially approved - http://www.autosport.cz/clanek.php?cl=11727
And now? Does a 30mm restrictor ensure that the performance balance between s2000 cars and s1.6T cars is "fair"? Or have s2000 cars nothing to do?

[Mirek]

If a WRC with 33 mm has 330 Hp, S2000 1.6T with same engine but 30 mm should be around 270-280 Hp. N/A S2000 have around 280-300 Hp but with much less torque, so we'll see...

[morganmilan]

Thnx Mirek. If I´m not wrong, I guess then than the less slippery the rally is, the best times a s2000 can reach against 1.6T cars, because the less need of torque ( although if there are a lot of slow curves...). Am I right?

[dimviii]

Thnx Mirek. If I´m not wrong, I guess then than the less slippery the rally is, the best times a s2000 can reach against 1.6T cars, because the less need of torque ( although if there are a lot of slow curves...). Am I right?

Logical thinking.

[OldF]

The lot higher torque the S2000 1.6T has, especially on lower revs which gives more power, gives a big advantage when accelerating out of hairpins and junctions. Another advantage IMO is that it will also enable higher top speed due to different gear and final drive ratios.

I don’t know how the homologation procedure works but I’ve understood that a manufacturer has first to homologate a S2000. I don’t think that there’s a need to do another homologation for the whole car for the WRC version, just the WRC kit. This raises the question, is it possible to homologate different gear and final drive ratios for the S2000 version and the WRC version of the car.

The same engine with a 33 mm restrictor and a 30 mm restrictor are IMO little bit different in nature, e.g. the 30 mm restrictor version has its peak torque on lower revs and generally the whole working rev band is on lower revs compared to the engine with 33 mm restrictor. But I don’t know would this give a need for different ratios.

It will be interesting to hear what kind of sound it has. But as Mirek said, we’ll see.

[urabus-denoS2000]

C.I.R. will allow 1,6Ts to start on rallies , but they can't score points . A 1,6T driver cannot be named the Italian champion

[Mirek]

Same in Czech republic for both 1.6T and RGT.

OldF. Same gear sets for both if I understand regs well.

[Jarek Z]

Yes, Todt, Chandler, Berger and Richards enforced 1.6T into regulations despite dfiance other people. But it is still politics, big pushes, big money. FIA is still the same (or better some of the top people at FIA has the same manners...

So, in 2004 FIA banned the most powerful rally cars (WRCs) from regional championships. Everybody complained.
Now they bring them back. And everybody complains again?

[dimviii]

The lot higher torque the S2000 1.6T has, especially on lower revs which gives more power, gives a big advantage when accelerating out of hairpins and junctions.
comparing with?

[Mirek]

So, in 2004 FIA banned the most powerful rally cars (WRCs) from regional championships. Everybody complained.
Now they bring them back. And everybody complains again?

Of course they do. Three hundred S2000 cars were bought because they were able to win rallies, not to play second league. Moreover if there will be handful of 1.6T in whole Europe this year. S2000 formula proved itself to be healthy and working, so why not to kill it?

[PLuto]

So, in 2004 FIA banned the most powerful rally cars (WRCs) from regional championships. Everybody complained.
Now they bring them back. And everybody complains again?

No, but the problem is when and how FIA is doing it. FIA wanted to allow cars, which should be more better than actual cars in time, where this cars arent ready for sell. Before starting of the season, almost nobody is able to buy such a car. In that case, there should be only lucky drivers, who can have this cars for beginning of the season. And I think this isnt so serious. For me is OK to allow this cars in regional championships from 2012, when there will be more cars available for everybody. Not now, when only very low number of drivers can have this car (rented)...

[Jarek Z]

I get your point PLuto. Logical thinking. But, unfortunately, FIA are a bunch of narrow-minded i.d.i.o.t.s. who don't have any vision of the future of our sport. For example, a few years ago they said that rallies should be simpler to follow for new fans. And now they complicate everything when it comes to car categories. Super 2000 cars are classified in group N! But some Super 2000 cars have 1600 engine! We have groups A, N, R and GT. Who can follow all that? It's total chaos!

[OldF]

Thanks Mirek.

I don’t exactly know how it’s in Finland because there’s no mention about S2000 1.6T, only that Super 2000 Rally are eligible.


Two-wheel drive class

2WD class is one of the two FRC classes. The following cars are eligible in the class:

Group N, FIA R2, FIA R3 and FIN R up to and including 2000 cm3; Super 1600 cars are allowed to take part, but the drivers are not eligible for FRC points.

Four-wheel drive class

In the 4WD class Group N cars over 2000 cm3, FIA R4 and Super 2000 Rally are eligible for points. FIA R4 is a new car for season 2011, and it´s homologation regulations will only be published in early 2011. It will be interesting to see if we see any of these cars in FRC 2011.

http://www.rallism.fi/en/info/

[PLuto]

I get your point PLuto. Logical thinking. But, unfortunately, FIA are a bunch of narrow-minded i.d.i.o.t.s. who don't have any vision of the future of our sport. For example, a few years ago they said that rallies should be simpler to follow for new fans. And now they complicate everything when it comes to car categories. Super 2000 cars are classified in group N! But some Super 2000 cars have 1600 engine! We have groups A, N, R and GT. Who can follow all that? It's total chaos!

Yes, I agree. Actually, I think that new system with classes 1-10 is more simple and fair for crews as previous one. S2000 cars are actually out of group N. I think that the best way should be to delete all gr. A, N, R and GT and stay in results only this 10 classes...

[eldona77]

Hello dear friends,
I collect stickers and poster about all rallies in the world.
I had read your mail about national championship rally. But you have calendars about other countries like Iceland, Moldova, Romania and other little countries???????? And if you have stickers about your national rallies, send me an e-mail and I' ll answer to you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!