Wikileaks

[Bob Riebe]

Senseless is a obnoxious lout making stupid comments and when the gross stupidity is gently pointed out to him, not even acknowledging his own statements and
acting as if he never wrote what he wrote.

But I do agree, any dialog with people like Reibe is by its very nature senseless.

His crowd cannot defend indefensible utterances, and according to themselves, can never do or say, or write anything wrong.

Here is a inter-net hanky, http://foolstown.com/sm/ma.gif now take two aspirin and go lie down.

[airshifter]

…. And this would compensate for the disgrace of the US government?

:dozey:

I've yet to see anything from Wikileaks that disgraced any government. If the public finds any of these leaks as shocking, then I'd suggest the public in general doesn't have much of a grasp as to what goes in in diplomatic relations, or for that matter even a lot of company board meetings.

[555-04Q2]

I've yet to see anything from Wikileaks that disgraced any government. If the public finds any of these leaks as shocking, then I'd suggest the public in general doesn't have much of a grasp as to what goes in in diplomatic relations, or for that matter even a lot of company board meetings.

Have you actually had a proper look at the leaks? If governments are not disgraced by what has been revealed in some of the documents, then we are all a lot more fu@ked than we though we were. Some of the war crime revelations (just to mention one area of the leaks) are plain old sickening.

[janvanvurpa]

Have you actually had a proper look at the leaks? If governments are not disgraced by what has been revealed in some of the documents, then we are all a lot more fu@ked than we though we were. Some of the war crime revelations (just to mention one area of the leaks) are plain old sickening.

Tsk tsk, it's only a War Crime if other people designated by the White house do it. Killing millions of people in order to bring them democracy and save them from ____________________________(fill in the blank) is always perfectly acceptable if somebody in the US Government says it's OK.

Remember, to die for Freedom™ is a privilege.


And don't forget "they" don't value life we "we'' do, so it doesn't bother "them" to see all their parents or kids blown into biftek hâché, or filled with lead the same way as it bothers us.

[janvanvurpa]

In general we should always learn from ''the other side'', those who call themselves Republi-tari-baggers who answered those of us who decried the rape of the Bill of Rights guarantee of "freedom in their persons from unreasonable search in seizure " with a pithy phrase which we can return now:

If the Gubbymint officials and Military weren't doing anything illegal, then what are they afraid of?

[AAReagles]

I've yet to see anything from Wikileaks that disgraced any government. If the public finds any of these leaks as shocking, then I'd suggest the public in general doesn't have much of a grasp as to what goes in in diplomatic relations, or for that matter even a lot of company board meetings.

If I recall correctly, you were regarding Wikileaks - in some sense or another - as no different from slanted news sources. Which is where I took the quote from.

In other words, Wikileaks is basically a harmless source, like any other media, with exception to propaganda that suits a particular audience.

That being said, I’ll admit that it is an apples and oranges comparison whenever comparing state agencies to private mediums. Govt responsibilities and pressures are far greater than what those in the information industry are accustomed to. Nevertheless with that responsibility comes accountability.

Accountability is something that the ruling class appears to have some amnesia with.

For instance:

- why is it that the govt bailed out the banks and auto industry, but did nothing for the private farmers (25-30 years ago) when they faced a $ crisis due to no fault of their own?

- How is it that this country is involved in two wars, yet allowed the Walter Reed M.C. turn into an unsanitary relic of a hospital?

- why was it so difficult to be prepared for (at the very least) elementary emergency response protocol prior to more than enough warning of Hurricane Katrina arriving in the gulf region?

- speaking of the gulf region, why was there no govt oversight of BP’s containment/clean-up operations after they already were proven to be negligent on other (prior) disasters that cost lives?

- how is it that a nation that engaged in a lengthy, bloody conflict that cost over 54,000 american lives - all for the sake of fighting communism - finally discovered it’s in debt to a communist nation, that supported their adversary?

These are questions that I, along with some other folks I’m sure, would like to see answered. Which won’t happen of course.

Mr. Assange is no saint, but his reputation will hardly be as tarnished as those, the powers that be, who condemn him, and who fear what he represents: knowledge.

[Bob Riebe]

If I recall correctly, you were regarding Wikileaks - in some sense or another - as no different from slanted news sources. Which is where I took the quote from.

In other words, Wikileaks is basically a harmless source, like any other media, with exception to propaganda that suits a particular audience.

That being said, I’ll admit that it is an apples and oranges comparison whenever comparing state agencies to private mediums. Govt responsibilities and pressures are far greater than what those in the information industry are accustomed to. Nevertheless with that responsibility comes accountability.

Accountability is something that the ruling class appears to have some amnesia with.

For instance:

- why is it that the govt bailed out the banks and auto industry, but did nothing for the private farmers (25-30 years ago) when they faced a $ crisis due to no fault of their own?

- How is it that this country is involved in two wars, yet allowed the Walter Reed M.C. turn into an unsanitary relic of a hospital?

- why was it so difficult to be prepared for (at the very least) elementary emergency response protocol prior to more than enough warning of Hurricane Katrina arriving in the gulf region?

- speaking of the gulf region, why was there no govt oversight of BP’s containment/clean-up operations after they already were proven to be negligent on other (prior) disasters that cost lives?

- how is it that a nation that engaged in a lengthy, bloody conflict that cost over 54,000 american lives - all for the sake of fighting communism - finally discovered it’s in debt to a communist nation, that supported their adversary?

These are questions that I, along with some other folks I’m sure, would like to see answered. Which won’t happen of course.

Mr. Assange is no saint, but his reputation will hardly be as tarnished as those, the powers that be, who condemn him, and who fear what he represents: knowledge.

Knowledge in the wrong hands is why Japan and Germany lost WWII.

[AAReagles]

Knowledge in the wrong hands is why Japan and Germany lost WWII.

Blind ambitions with power is what cost them the war.

The same equation that's scavaged this country with career politicians prostituting themselves out for corporate pimps.

If that wasn't the case then there would have been no issue about earmarks and the recent Supreme Court ruling for corporations to donate to campaigns.

[AAReagles]

Further more I'll add, that when any American on this forum (or outside of it for that matter) can convince me that this country is a democracy, and not an oligarchy - I stop supporting the likes of Wikileaks.

[cali]

Tsk tsk, it's only a War Crime if other people designated by the White house do it. Killing millions of people in order to bring them democracy and save them from ____________________________(fill in the blank) is always perfectly acceptable if somebody in the US Government says it's OK.

Remember, to die for Freedom™ is a privilege.


And don't forget "they" don't value life we "we'' do, so it doesn't bother "them" to see all their parents or kids blown into biftek hâché, or filled with lead the same way as it bothers us.
Well said :)

[555-04Q2]

Seconded cali :up:

[Retro Formula 1]

I've yet to see anything from Wikileaks that disgraced any government. If the public finds any of these leaks as shocking, then I'd suggest the public in general doesn't have much of a grasp as to what goes in in diplomatic relations, or for that matter even a lot of company board meetings.

I gave a prime example earlier in the thread.

If you don't accept "Collatoral Murder" and the fact that the only person to ever be punished was the person that released it to Wikileaks as being hugely embarrassing to the US administration, then I am at a loss for words.

[Bob Riebe]

Blind ambitions with power is what cost them the war.


Sounds a lot like Assange.

[cali]

Sounds a lot like Assange.
Sounds good ;)

[AAReagles]

Sounds a lot like Assange.

I can't argue that.

Though I must say it also sounds a lot like the corrupted bunch that keeps:

- expressing a need for peace talks, yet out sells the rest of the world in the arms trade industry.

- talking about protecting this country from terrorism, yet tried to cede control of 6 ports to a middle-eastern company.

- preaching about democracy, yet support well-known regimes (like Saddam) with $ and/or military hardware.



Years ago I heard over the radio one of Bruce Springstines' concert recordings. Prior to entertaining, he reflected on the (then) recent closing of the Vietnam conflict, of which he stated; "Having blind faith in your leaders will get you nothing but killed."

Didn't completely understand it myself then. But made a lot of sense some years later (when in service), and still does now.

[Bob Riebe]

I can't argue that.

Though I must say it also sounds a lot like the corrupted bunch that keeps:

- expressing a need for peace talks, yet out sells the rest of the world in the arms trade industry.

- talking about protecting this country from terrorism, yet tried to cede control of 6 ports to a middle-eastern company.

- preaching about democracy, yet support well-known regimes (like Saddam) with $ and/or military hardware.



Years ago I heard over the radio one of Bruce Springstines' concert recordings. Prior to entertaining, he reflected on the (then) recent closing of the Vietnam conflict, of which he stated; "Having blind faith in your leaders will get you nothing but killed."

Didn't completely understand it myself then. But made a lot of sense some years later (when in service), and still does now.
As I said earlier, one conservative pundit, said on a talk-show, in effect, Assange is a zit on a gnats ass, the fact that leaks EXIST, is what everyone should be focusing on.

[ArrowsFA1]

...it’s about time more people became aware of what’s going on.... and actually took some interests.
:up: :up: :up:

[ArrowsFA1]

As I said earlier, one conservative pundit, said on a talk-show, in effect, Assange is a zit on a gnats ass, the fact that leaks EXIST, is what everyone should be focusing on.
The point made about Assange is a valid one but that point tells me that the reaction to the leaks by politicians should be the focus of attention, not the leaks themselves.

[Bob Riebe]

The point made about Assange is a valid one but that point tells me that the reaction to the leaks by politicians should be the focus of attention, not the leaks themselves.
No that the leaks exist at all , was the point.
Any reaction is closing the barn door after the horses got out.

[janvanvurpa]

If I recall correctly, you were regarding Wikileaks - in some sense or another - as no different from slanted news sources. Which is where I took the quote from.

In other words, Wikileaks is basically a harmless source, like any other media, with exception to propaganda that suits a particular audience.

That being said, I’ll admit that it is an apples and oranges comparison whenever comparing state agencies to private mediums. Govt responsibilities and pressures are far greater than what those in the information industry are accustomed to. Nevertheless with that responsibility comes accountability.

Accountability is something that the ruling class appears to have some amnesia with.

For instance:

- why is it that the govt bailed out the banks and auto industry, but did nothing for the private farmers (25-30 years ago) when they faced a $ crisis due to no fault of their own?

- How is it that this country is involved in two wars, yet allowed the Walter Reed M.C. turn into an unsanitary relic of a hospital?

- why was it so difficult to be prepared for (at the very least) elementary emergency response protocol prior to more than enough warning of Hurricane Katrina arriving in the gulf region?

- speaking of the gulf region, why was there no govt oversight of BP’s containment/clean-up operations after they already were proven to be negligent on other (prior) disasters that cost lives?

- how is it that a nation that engaged in a lengthy, bloody conflict that cost over 54,000 american lives - all for the sake of fighting communism - finally discovered it’s in debt to a communist nation, that supported their adversary?

These are questions that I, along with some other folks I’m sure, would like to see answered. Which won’t happen of course.

Mr. Assange is no saint, but his reputation will hardly be as tarnished as those, the powers that be, who condemn him, and who fear what he represents: knowledge.

Simple answer: In America most will do anything for money. Just a question of how much it takes to overcome morals and honesty and everything else.

[ArrowsFA1]

No that the leaks exist at all , was the point...

WikiLeaks is part of the phenomenon of the online, empowered citizen ... these are facts that aren't going to go away. Government and authorities need to wise up to that."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/dec/30/wikileaks-freedom-information-ministers-government

The over-reaction to "a zit on a gnats ass" among some politicians - that Julian Assange & Wikileaks are terrorists, traitors, spies, and worse - is a knee-jerk reaction to something they didn't and couldn't control, and many would argue shouldn't control.

[555-04Q2]

Governments shouldn't control anything. They should do what the people that voted them into power want them to do, which is to serve the people and the best interests of the counrtry as a whole. Unfortunately, governments do their own thing and do as little as possible to keep people happy to secure their votes at the next lot of polls.

[AAReagles]

As I said earlier, one conservative pundit, said on a talk-show, in effect, Assange is a zit on a gnats ass, the fact that leaks EXIST, is what everyone should be focusing on.

And because I’m a conservative I am suppose to agree with him? Hardly. I belong to no group, have no alliances, and I most certainly don’t trust mankind - regardless of what shape or form of altruistic agendas that one faction, or another, might present.

People here need to be focused on the activities of the govt., (with OUR $$$ ) and the corporations that control it. The same concept that many people had during Viet Nam. Good grief! Are we, as a country, that short-sited?




Simple answer: In America most will do anything for money. Just a question of how much it takes to overcome morals and honesty and everything else.

You know as well as I do that people generally don’t open the aperture wide enough to register the entirety of an issue. Especially us Americans with our amenities. I was hoping to see that other Americans would have been a bit more focus on both parties, not just Assange.

I actually thought we were better than that.




The over-reaction to "a zit on a gnats ass" among some politicians - that Julian Assange & Wikileaks are terrorists, traitors, spies, and worse - is a knee-jerk reaction to something they didn't and couldn't control, and many would argue shouldn't control.

That’s what worries me, is both liberals and conservatives over here have been duped to thinking that Wikileaks is the problem, without even considering the government’s role in the world… all this while we’re going bankrupt, and people will still allow themselves to be led to the slaughterhouse of propaganda.

This clearly shows how vulnerable we are to practices of conditioning.

[Bob Riebe]

And because I’m a conservative I am suppose to agree with him? Hardly. I belong to no group, have no alliances, and I most certainly don’t trust mankind - regardless of what shape or form of altruistic agendas that one faction, or another, might present.

People here need to be focused on the activities of the govt., (with OUR $$$ ) and the corporations that control it. The same concept that many people had during Viet Nam. Good grief! Are we, as a country, that short-sited?


I am not that paranoid, and beyond armed revolt, all the finger pointing in the world does no good.
Political parties or at least- the talking heads- should make a huge point that those in government should be flushing out those embedded within the belt-way that are a cancer rotting the country from within.

Cripes, now we have the pathetic crying man in charge of the Congress.

All the brough-ha-ha about ethnic profiling is just a scam to prevent using something that will expose them as the corrupt forces they are.

[BDunnell]

Cripes, now we have the pathetic crying man in charge of the Congress.

Do you believe that all men who cry are pathetic?

[Bob Riebe]

Do you believe that all men who cry are pathetic?
No just this sobbing twit.

[airshifter]

I gave a prime example earlier in the thread.

If you don't accept "Collatoral Murder" and the fact that the only person to ever be punished was the person that released it to Wikileaks as being hugely embarrassing to the US administration, then I am at a loss for words.

In reality, you'd be more at a loss for the factual information. The unedited version of the footage, along with all the other information and investigations was made public. Though no doubt the actions of some of the people were not warranted, that is easy for us to judge sitting at a computer and not having scumbags fire RPGs at us.

But if you look at the unedited versions and other information, it's clear that lack of press identification, identified weapons in an unauthorized area, and their actions in event were the primary causes of those men losing their lives., not to mention the suffering inflicted on the children involved.

Assange also claimed that the military tried to keep the children from getting medical help, but it is documented that they were immediately taken to a forward operating base for emergency medical treatment.


If things such as this are taken as the comdemning information being leaked, then I just hope the public actually seeks the reality of thing they leak rather than the edited Clif Notes versions with lies attached.

[donKey jote]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-12141530
"If the Iranian government was to attempt to coercively obtain this information from journalists and activists of foreign nations, human rights groups around the world would speak out,"
Freedom of press?
I guess it must somehow make more sense to harass icelandic MPs than to spend the energy on going after the real baddies :dozey:

[Retro Formula 1]

In reality, you'd be more at a loss for the factual information. The unedited version of the footage, along with all the other information and investigations was made public. Though no doubt the actions of some of the people were not warranted, that is easy for us to judge sitting at a computer and not having scumbags fire RPGs at us.

I have seen the unedited version and it is shocking. Not just this but also the destruction of the building after this event with complete disregard of civillian casulaties.

Throuout all of this, there was never a shot fired by these men and the RPG that was identified was actually a long lense camera which shortly before the incident took a picture of a US Humme less than 100 yards away. There was no suggestion that these people had fired although there were some AK-47's held unfired by the men which I think is quite legal in Iraq.

There had been some insurgent activity in the general area from a rooftop based group which is what the copters were supposed to be looking for but this was obviously not the group.


But if you look at the unedited versions and other information, it's clear that lack of press identification, identified weapons in an unauthorized area, and their actions in event were the primary causes of those men losing their lives., not to mention the suffering inflicted on the children involved.

Lack of press indentification????? The chopper couldn't differentiate between a RPG and a long lense camera, let alone a press pass. What were the reporters to do? Paint their asses red and flash them at the pilots to have a pot-shot at?

The area you mention is a residential place that people live in. Not some killing field and the suffering inflicted on those innocent children was caused by those American pilots firing on a man that had stopped to help the wounded.

Your attitude to those children strangly reflects the pilots who's comments were that it was the drivers fault for being there and not their fault for shooting them.


Assange also claimed that the military tried to keep the children from getting medical help, but it is documented that they were immediately taken to a forward operating base for emergency medical treatment.

No, the order was given to evacuate the children to the US base at Rustamiyah but later this was countermanded and they were handed over to the Iraqi police to take to hospital.


If things such as this are taken as the comdemning information being leaked, then I just hope the public actually seeks the reality of thing they leak rather than the edited Clif Notes versions with lies attached.

FFS. You have journalists being murdered and blame them for not identifying themselves to a Helicopter despite them holding cameras and not RPG's. You have an unarmed father being murdered for daring to offer assistance. You have children being wounded and their injuries being blamed on their murdered father for being in an area the US decided to turn into a battle zone. You have dead bodied being run over and laughed about. You have helicopter pilots being allowed to fire missiles at buildings when it has been identified that civilians were in the firing line.

You have a gung-ho approach with no respect or regard for people that the US obviously regard as not worthy of thought or feeling. It's almost as if the US view the Iraq people as lesser species, worthy of contempt.

Condemning? I think it's utterly shamefull and a disgrace that justifies how the US has descended from being the Land of the Free and a beacon for free speech and expression to being regarded as the warmongers of the world and oppressors of justice.

Shame on you for perpetuating this view with defence of the indefensible :(

[Garry Walker]

Do you believe that all men who cry are pathetic?

yes

[555-04Q2]

yes

Call me pathetic then. I have cried whenever I have lost a family member, a close friend of mine or one of my dogs.

[Garry Walker]

Call me pathetic then. I have cried whenever I have lost a family member, a close friend of mine or one of my dogs.

Well, how do you define crying? Are we talking about a few tears in your eyes tha you wipe away with your finger? When I buried my grandparents I had that.
More than that? Havent done that since I was maybe 6 or 7.

[AAReagles]

I am not that paranoid, and beyond armed revolt, all the finger pointing in the world does no good..

Sorry man, but my trust in mankind is about as good as my faith is in organized religion, and my confidence is in machines.

Yes, I do realize that Wikileaks isn’t absolute from error anymore than any other organization, but I don’t recognize it as much of a problem yet, as I do other organizations.

Hence that Wikileaks isn’t responsible for how this country shipwrecked its’ integrity, or it’s economy.

[AAReagles]

... Condemning? I think it's utterly shamefull and a disgrace that justifies how the US has descended from being the Land of the Free and a beacon for free speech and expression to being regarded as the warmongers of the world and oppressors of justice...

Don't worry. That opinion (over here) will change in due time. Sooner than most people care to think.

[markabilly]

I have seen the unedited version and it is shocking. Not just this but also the destruction of the building after this event with complete disregard of civillian casulaties.

Throuout all of this, there was never a shot fired by these men and the RPG that was identified was actually a long lense camera which shortly before the incident took a picture of a US Humme less than 100 yards away. There was no suggestion that these people had fired although there were some AK-47's held unfired by the men which I think is quite legal in Iraq.

There had been some insurgent activity in the general area from a rooftop based group which is what the copters were supposed to be looking for but this was obviously not the group.



Lack of press indentification????? The chopper couldn't differentiate between a RPG and a long lense camera, let alone a press pass. What were the reporters to do? Paint their asses red and flash them at the pilots to have a pot-shot at?

The area you mention is a residential place that people live in. Not some killing field and the suffering inflicted on those innocent children was caused by those American pilots firing on a man that had stopped to help the wounded.

Your attitude to those children strangly reflects the pilots who's comments were that it was the drivers fault for being there and not their fault for shooting them.



No, the order was given to evacuate the children to the US base at Rustamiyah but later this was countermanded and they were handed over to the Iraqi police to take to hospital.



FFS. You have journalists being murdered and blame them for not identifying themselves to a Helicopter despite them holding cameras and not RPG's. You have an unarmed father being murdered for daring to offer assistance. You have children being wounded and their injuries being blamed on their murdered father for being in an area the US decided to turn into a battle zone. You have dead bodied being run over and laughed about. You have helicopter pilots being allowed to fire missiles at buildings when it has been identified that civilians were in the firing line.

You have a gung-ho approach with no respect or regard for people that the US obviously regard as not worthy of thought or feeling. It's almost as if the US view the Iraq people as lesser species, worthy of contempt.

Condemning? I think it's utterly shamefull and a disgrace that justifies how the US has descended from being the Land of the Free and a beacon for free speech and expression to being regarded as the warmongers of the world and oppressors of justice.

Shame on you for perpetuating this view with defence of the indefensible :(

your crappy and false view has already been discussed in another thread, a long time ago, and as usual, you completely and intentionally misrepresent the truth

[markabilly]

Sorry man, but my trust in mankind is about as good as my faith is in organized religion, and my confidence is in machines.

.

Hence that Wikileaks isn’t responsible for how this country shipwrecked its’ integrity, or it’s economy.

sic transit gloria....all nations rise and fall, and these words of a future certain to be true, at some near point in time.

And so the day will come when America willl not be a superpower trying to protect the rest of the world from the wolves as it will no longer have the resouces, the wolves will feast, and so what?

At least I will not be seeing my friends, neighbors and relatives going off to die in some foreign land to keep a bunch of ingrates safe, while big corporations profit.

Let the North Koreans deal with their own monsters and if they do not have the willingness to deal with it, then tuff stuff for them. If North Korea or any other country wants to be an actual threat to the safety of the people in this country by killing people on our soil, nuke quick them without mercy.

Otherwise, quit trying to save the rest of the world....most do not deserve it anyway when they are not willing to stand up for themselves

Washington said stay away from Europe and its bloody wars, and we quit listening around 1900.....Time to listen again, close the doors to immigration which has escalated crime so much here, and let others stand up and fight or learn to speak chinese, russian, or bake in ovens or whatever

[AAReagles]

... And so the day will come when America willl not be a superpower trying to protect the rest of the world from the wolves as it will no longer have the resouces, the wolves will feast, and so what?

At least I will not be seeing my friends, neighbors and relatives going off to die in some foreign land to keep a bunch of ingrates safe, while big corporations profit.

Otherwise, quit trying to save the rest of the world....most do not deserve it anyway when they are not willing to stand up for themselves

.....Time to listen again, close the doors to immigration which has escalated crime so much here, and let others stand up and fight or learn to speak chinese, russian, or bake in ovens or whatever

Well I see someone else here has a bit of Marxist views as well. So much for capitalism eh?

Glad to hear another american tell it like it is. However I must say I do disagree with your bit about immigration.

Translation: NO ONE is better than anyone else. PERIOD! Everyone has the God-given right to feed their families... whether they're illegal or not!

[markabilly]

However I must say I do disagree with your bit about immigration.

Translation: NO ONE is better than anyone else. PERIOD! Everyone has the God-given right to feed their families... whether they're illegal or not!

Let them feed themselves where they are....they come here many with no respect, and expect the best, while contributing to increased crime.

maybe if that option were not available anymore, they would do what they need to do where they are.

I am not a marxist, because that is just another fanciful religion of silly idealists, and when implemented, has proven time again that it eats its young, worse than anything I have seen in the USA.

Of course as with any religion, the true beleivers will try to abandon these folks as backsliders or some form of non-beleiver or deviant from the true religion when things do not turn out to happy in never-nerver land....

[Bob Riebe]

Everyone has the God-given right to feed their families... whether they're illegal or not!There is no such thing as a God given right.

So if one to feed his family has to eradicate person or person's family, that is your God given "right?"

Stealing is against the Ten Commandments and any one illegally crossing a border and taking a job from a legal resident is stealing, so much for a God given "right."