Maxi Rally Class

[Sulland]

Any more news on the development of the Maxi Rally class in Argentina ?

Are more cars being developed, and will the class be big in 2011? Any info on the Prices gotten out yet ?

[ZequeArgentina]

lot of news:

1- Second VW Gol has been finished and run in Uruguat Southamericanrally champ. (DNF due to engine failure)

Tango rally team will run 2 or 3 Chevrolet Agile (A local car)

2 Fiat Punto are to start construction, and Villagara team is exécted to build 2 fiesta.

2 Peugeot 207 are also ongoing.

Honda is interested in the cathegory (a Fit??)

No info on prices yet.

[Sulland]

Cool, thanks for info !

[imprezarb5]

Hi there!

I've been doing a little research on this class. Will all the cars use Honda engines?

If so, how will the cars differ? For example, will the Chevrolet Agile, Fiat, Villagra's Ford and the VW's all have a Honda engine?

Cheers!
Simon

[Sulland]

http://www.rallysportmag.com.au/home/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=5135&Itemid=2

So they will all have the same engine, but not sure on the suspension, gearbox etc - are there some regulations produced for this class ?

[Sulland]

Any news on this class, more cars made, and do you know any prices ?

What is the plan for 2011; more countries in the region adopting this plan, or will it only be in Argentina ?

[Co-driven]

Yes, for this year there are a few other cars expected:
- Ford Fiesta with Villagra's team;
- Chevrolet Agile with Tango Rally Team;
- 2 more VW Gol;
- 2 Fiat Punto;
- There's at least one Peugeot 207.

Besides that, I heard that Kia may enter too. Rumors say that there will be two cars in Paraguay and in Brazil it's being said that Mauricio Neves (the one that took part of the Dakar with VW Motorsport) is building some cars too.

[Sulland]

So are they rebuilding S2000 fiestas, 207s and GPuntos to fit the Maxi Rally regs ?

Are the class regulations available online somewhere ?

[Co-driven]

No, they are building new cars under the MaxiRally specs. The Fiesta and 207 aren't the same as the S2000. The 207 isn't the same 207 in Europe, it's more likely the 206+. The Fiesta is a bit different too, with 5 doors. The Punto has the same appearence as the S2000, but aren't the same.

It's the same engine, gearbox and differentials for all cars.

[Sulland]

Like the concept a lot ! Keep us posted please ?

[Co-driven]

Yes, for sure.

Some pictures published today of the Punto and 207:
http://www.mundorally.com.br/index.php?option=com_ponygallery&Itemid=123&func=viewcategory&catid=579

[Co-driven]

The Argentina National Championship starts this weekend. For this round, there will be 10 of the new Maxi Rally cars.

http://www.mundorally.com.br/index.php/2011033117094/ARGENTINO-Campeonato-Argentino-de-Rally-abre-a-temporada-2011-com-novidades.html

[Sulland]

10 cars is not bad at all !

Do you have any information on prices for the different cars compared to N4/R4 or S2000 ?

[Co-driven]

What's being said over here in Brazil is that one of those cars costs approximately $150.000 - $180.000 dollars.

Here in Brazil, there is a project really similar to those Maxi Rally (same engine, gearbox and differentials) that is being started and probably in a few months the first car will be ready. The team that's building this car is ProMacchin, which is owned by Mauricio Neves (the one that was in Dakar 2010 with VW Motorsports).

[Sulland]

OK, are we talking US Dollars ?

If it is USD we are talking in the range of 100 to 125 000 Euro, so aprox as a Gr N4 car, but looks much more fun to drive !!

[Co-driven]

Yes, US Dollars.

That's one of the advantages of this new class: it's a car that is relatively cheap but is really fun to drive. And one of the other benefits is that lots of new makes are entering the competition. For example, on this first round there is: VW, Peugeot, Ford, Chevrolet, Kia and Fiat.

[Bruno Cancianrally]

I'm not sure about that values, as my good friend Gabriel said ... I think they are a little bit lower, even considering that Argentina's currency is weaker ... Even if we consider the price of the models used for the preparation are around $ 10,000 USD (Do not think that the Punto, 207, etc... sold here are the same in europe!), and that the set: engine + gearbox + transmission is purchased at wholesale, guess it would be cheaper for them, because, 180 000 U.S. dollars in the currency of Argentina is a lot of money, and will be a no sense project (will be best keep the N4!). In Brazil there is an ongoing project similar to the Maxi rally, but I believe that, with the intention of reduce costs, will be used k20 turbo-charged engines (and not the k24 N/A as in Argentina), in popular sedan bodies (but in Brazil its cost, naked, around $ 25 000 USD!!!), with the intention of lowering costs and bring them closer to the N4. In Brazil, make it happen is more difficult, since we have the most expensive tax, cars and parts of the world. Just to give you an idea, a BMW 3 series, which in the Norwegian BMW website costs $ 308,000 FRA, in Brazil costs $ 650,000 FRA! That's because it is a luxury brand... in the popular cars that difference in value increases a lot!!! So, the costs are the biggest problem in the Brazilian rally... import a Evo or a Sti or a engine or a sequential gearbox is unbelievably expensive!!! Therefore, the problem of the rally in Brazil are the government taxes, and in the rest of South America is the weakness of the currency!!

[vino_93]

Hi ! Where can I find informations about few south americans rally championship ? (Brazil, Bolivia, Ecuador, Peru, ...)

[Co-driven]

Brazil:
http://www.mundorally.com.br
http://www.ereshow.com.br

Argentina:
http://www.rallynoticias.com (this one is really good, usually has lots of good information not only from Argentina)
http://www.rallyargentino.org.ar

Paraguay:
http://www.elpurete.com.py/home_2011.html

Peru:
http://www.perurally.com

This are the ones I know.

[Bruno Cancianrally]

Chile has a strong championship also!!

http://www.rallymobil.cl

[vino_93]

thx :)

[Sulland]

Reading the season review on the Maxi Rally class, it sounds like a success.
RallySport Magazine - Tales from Argentina and their Maxi Rally Cars (http://www.rallysportmag.com.au/home/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=6377&Itemid=2)

What is the 2012 plan for this class;
- new teams with new bodywork coming in?
- is the class spreading to other countries?

[Co-driven]

What I heard is that the amount of cars will grow, probably a new model (Fiat Palio) will be included.

Some are saying that more cars are going to race in Paraguay. Besides that, in Brazil Mauricio Neves (2010 VW Dakar driver) is developing something similar, with the same idea, but with some differences. It will be called XRC - Xtreme Rally Car (Xtreme Rally Car (http://www.xrcrali.com.br/)).

In the FIA South America Regional Championship the Maxi Rally cars are allowed to compete in the same class as the N4 cars (as it is in Argentina).

[ZequeArgentina]

There have been 20 cars built.
Two of them have raced in Paraguay championship, and there is interest in a brazilean driver, he even raced one Vw as 0 car and plan to do it next year.

There have been some reliability problems, but nothing really wrong or strange for a new type of cars.
Health of national championship is better than before, so ir worked out.

What is not good is geting out of FIA rules, for instance at Rally Argentina, they are out of the race, no possibility to comapre to SWRC or PWRC.

[Co-driven]

Yesterday, they just launched the new car developed here in Brazil: it's called XRC - Xtreme Rally Car.

It follows the same formula of the Argentine Maxi Rally Cars, with the same engine, gearbox, transmission and suspension for all the cars, the only difference is the 'outer' shell. The first prototype uses a Peugeot 207 (the 206+ from Europe) shell. They have a V6 engine, 5-speed sequential gearbox and around 300hp. Here in Brazil they will compete against regular N4 cars and probably against the Maxi Rally Cars from Argentina (I don't think that is confirmed yet).

http://www.rallybrasileiro.com.br/images/igallery/resized/3601-3700/xrc_josemariodias_0543-3607-600-400-100-wm-left_bottom-100-logopng.jpg

http://www.rallybrasileiro.com.br/images/igallery/resized/3501-3600/xrc_josemariodias_0347-3588-600-400-100-wm-left_bottom-100-logopng.jpg

http://www.rallybrasileiro.com.br/images/igallery/resized/3601-3700/xrc_josemariodias_0490-3606-600-400-100-wm-left_bottom-100-logopng.jpg

And a small video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsWGURgArUo

[Co-driven]

Just a small update about the Maxi Rally cars from Argentina.

It's being said that on 2013 they won't be allowed to run on the FIA South American Championship. This will happen because the Championship will follow FIA rules and as the Maxi Rally Cars aren't FIA homologated, they won't compete. The Brazilian XRC project probably won't be homologated either.

As a consequence, the 2013 South American Championship will have only four rounds (Argentina won't have an event): Brazil, Paraguay, Bolivia and Uruguay.

[Sulland]

Stupid! That is called shooting yourself in the foot!
Should be possible to have them in own class, or make a special approval to get spectacular cars as part of regional championships, if they have homologated cars regionally!

[vino_93]

stupid ...

co-driven : what about XRC cars ? Is there new projects ?

[NaBUru38]

Stupid! That is called shooting yourself in the foot!
Should be possible to have them in own class, or make a special approval to get spectacular cars as part of regional championships, if they have homologated cars regionally!
Yes, i's really stupid? Why does the Codasur prevent regional teams to build their own cars???

[Co-driven]

co-driven : what about XRC cars ? Is there new projects ?

As this was the first year of the project, it suffered some evolutions throughout the year. Another unit is being built right now, making a total of 3 cars available.

Some drivers tested the car this year. Daniel Oliveira and Nelson Piquet Jr. were some of them.

The XRC team will contest the X-Games in Brazil, on April/2013. They will have a 4-cylinder engine with around 600 hp (that's what was said). The project includes two cars and rumors say that Piquet Jr. will be one of the drivers.

[OldF]

Do any of you know how long time it takes to prepare the body shell of a maxi car?

[Sulland]

What is the current status of Maxi Rally, XRC and other initiatives down in the south?
Are they still growing?

[Zeakiwi]

It took months for Gilmour's team to put the first Suzuki maxi together.
http://youtu.be/Xk5YltC6VPM
The team put together their own 1600cc turbo engine towards the end of the season after overheating problems with the 1800cc turbo engine.

Having seen how teams repair the new V8 supercars/ supertourers after major crashes, long term I see rally cars being tube framed built to one refined safety design with attached steel panels of car model of choice. The pace innovations facebook has the v8 ford focus track car for south africa - a tube rally car might be similar.

[Co-driven]

What is the current status of Maxi Rally, XRC and other initiatives down in the south?
Are they still growing?

In Brazil, the XRC still competed in 2013. They aren't still 100%, every now and then appears an issue, but overall we can say that it's improving a bit at every event.

For 2014 the number of cars can grow from the two cars that competed in 2013, to four or five cars.

[vino_93]

still Peugeot 207 ?

[Co-driven]

Yes.

[Sulland]

Saw in another thread that the Maxi-Rally car has been homologated in RC2, is that correct?

[Zeakiwi]

Hawkeswood plans on building another maxi.
http://news.motorsport.org.nz/hawkeswoo ... eneration/ (http://news.motorsport.org.nz/hawkeswood-s-mazda2-among-new-generation/)

[NaBUru38]

The Maxi Rally class in the Argentine Rally Championship is very healthy.

2013 standings:

1. Federico Villagra (Ford)
2. Marcos Ligato (Chevrolet)
3. Claudio Menzi (Ford)
4. Gerónimo Padilla (Ford)
5. Alejandro Cancio (Peugeot)

Nicolás Fuchs was 7th with a Mitsubish Lancer Evo N4.
Miguel Baldoni was 9th with Volkswagen.
Gabriel Pozzo was 10th with Fiat.
Juan Gil De Marchi was 12th with Citroën.

There was also a Junior Maxi Rally class, where 12 drivers entered Ford, Fiat and Volkswagen.

[NaBUru38]

Marcos Ligato will have a new teammate in 2014: David Nalbandian, former number 3 tennis player!

This year, Peugeot will run the 208 (http://www.rallyargentino.com/amplia_noti.php?id_noti=9205):

http://www.rallyargentino.com/foto_noti/preto_4.jpg

[vino_93]

The Maxi Rally class in the Argentine Rally Championship is very healthy.

2013 standings:

1. Federico Villagra (Ford)
2. Marcos Ligato (Chevrolet)
3. Claudio Menzi (Ford)
4. Gerónimo Padilla (Ford)
5. Alejandro Cancio (Peugeot)

Nicolás Fuchs was 7th with a Mitsubish Lancer Evo N4.
Miguel Baldoni was 9th with Volkswagen.
Gabriel Pozzo was 10th with Fiat.
Juan Gil De Marchi was 12th with Citroën.

There was also a Junior Maxi Rally class, where 12 drivers entered Ford, Fiat and Volkswagen.

That wasn't a Lancer N4 for Fuchs, but Baratec car branded by Mitsu.
http://www.ewrc.cz/images/2013/photos/r ... c_6245.jpg (http://www.ewrc.cz/images/2013/photos/rally_centenario_villa_carlos_paz_2013/jmc_jmc_6245.jpg)

[Zeakiwi]

Is Baratec working on a maxi 1.6 litre direct injection engine for the maxi rally class?

http://youtu.be/eh6JN8L0V5s
The kiwi 'not so clever' element was present at this 'demo'.
Topless jump - I think Topi would say that is a dumb idea. Spectators a bit close etc etc

[NaBUru38]

That wasn't a Lancer N4 for Fuchs, but Baratec car branded by Mitsu.
http://www.ewrc.cz/images/2013/photos/r ... c_6245.jpg (http://www.ewrc.cz/images/2013/photos/rally_centenario_villa_carlos_paz_2013/jmc_jmc_6245.jpg)

Wow, that's cheap!!!

[Zeakiwi]

NZ is working on 'Group NZ' - a little bit of wrx plus a few bits of evo etc.
http://tinyurl.com/kydljyy

[Sulland]

So how did the Maxi cars do against the WRC opposition?

[vino_93]

http://www.rallyargentino.org.ar.php53-7.dfw1-2.websitetestlink.com/tiempos2010/2014/codasur/GRAL_PE02.HTM

here are times (you have to change PE0X to change stage to stage)

http://www.ewrc-results.com/results.php?e=13895&s=62578&t=XION-Rally-Argentina-2014

[NaBUru38]

2014 Argentine Rally Championship standings after round 3 Catamarca:

1. Marcos Ligato (Chevrolet), 78 pts
2. Federico Villagra (Ford), 68 pts
3. Alejandro Cancio (Peugeot), 64 pts
4. Luciano Preto, (Peugeot) 53 pts
5. Raúl Martínez (Ford), 48 pts
6. Nicolás Fuchs (Ford), 47 pts
7. Lucio Álvarez (Volkswagen), 40 pts
8. Miguel Baldoni (Peugeot), 37 pts
9. Fernando Scarlatta (Citroën), 26 pts
10. Juan Gil De Marchi (Citroën), 24 pts
11. Claudio Menzi (Ford), 18 pts
12. Daniel Oliveira (Peugeot), 18 pts

Catamarca photos: http://www.rallyargentino.com/ampliar_categoria.php?pageNum_fotos=1&totalRows_fotos=39&id_cate=437&anio=2014

[Sulland]

If I wanted to buy a new Maxi Rally tomorrow.
How much would I have to pay?

are there differences btw brands or aprox the same price?

[Rally Power]

Sulland, best way to know: e-mail them!

http://www.baratec.com/contacto.html

[OldF]

are there differences btw brands or aprox the same price?

If the kit is the same, the price between brands can’t be big.

[Co-driven]

If I wanted to buy a new Maxi Rally tomorrow.
How much would I have to pay?

are there differences btw brands or aprox the same price?


I don't know exact figures, but I'd say that a brand new car would cost around 170-200k dollars, including base car.

I think prices are appropriately the same between brands. There are some small differences, for example, as Baratec uses in-house developed dampers while Tango (which runs Chevrolets) uses Reigers dampers.

[Mirek]

That's not much less than R5 car which can be used in FIA events.

[Co-driven]

The problem is that in Argentina when you import a car you pay a huge amount of taxes (don't know exact numbers there, but in Brazil, for example, you end paying around 100% of the value of the car in taxes. So a 200k dollar car end up costing around 400k, excluindg shipping costs). So, in Argentina's case in which a Maxi Rally is almost 100% built there, it's not that close to a R5 car. A Maxi Rally car only has the gearbox, diffs and dampers (in some cases) imported. And it's easier to import those parts paying less tax than importing a full car.

In Paraguay, for example, the taxes paid are a lot lower or non-existant in some cases. That's why there are a lot of S2000 and R5 cars over there.

[Mirek]

Thank You for explanation.

[NaBUru38]

THe Rally de Córdoba was held last weekend at Villa Carlos Paz and Mina Clavero.

There were 20 Maxi Rally cars and 10 Maxi Junior cars.

1. Federico Villagra/José Díaz (Ford Fiesta - MR) 1:13'20.8
2. Marcos Ligato/Rubén García (Chevrolet Agile - MR) +3.8
3. Alejandro Cancio/Santiago García (Chevrolet Agile - MR) +50.5
4. Luciano Preto/Marcelo Der Ohannesian (Peugeot 208 - MR) +1'16.2
5. Miguel Baldoni/Gustavo Franchello (Peugeot 208 - MR) +1'22.3
6. David Nalbandian/Leonardo Suaya (Chevrolet Agile - MR) +2'33.9

(Nalbandian was the 2002 Wimbledon finalist.)

Next round is March 25-27 at Neuquén.

[Rally Power]

Cordoba Rally highlights:
1st leg: https://youtu.be/K6Pt9gB9JyU
2nd leg: https://youtu.be/dEqfuY76LJA

[Rally Power]

Surprising move from Argentina's Asn (ACA/CDA): R5’s will be elegible in local championship from 2020 (and allowed this year, without taking points).

Source: http://www.revistascratch.com/internacionales/noticia/se-aprueba-la-llegada-de-los-vehiculos-r5-al-rally-argentino-50932

[Damian Baldi]

I think the FIA has been doing some pressure to include R5 cars since a while, even (according with some sources) with the threat of cancell the WRC event. The local authorities (ACA/CDA) couldn't resist the "offer". So R5 and R4 cars are allowed from 2020. There were a R5 appereance at Rally Neuquen with Sordo at the wheel of a Hyudai i20 (he won, but the R5 and R4 cars ran as guests without points).

From the drivers point of view, most of them think that none of the R5 cars will be running the entire championship, but for sure there will be R5 cars in some events. Why? Because the same reasons that permited the creation of the Maxi Rally cars (taxes and the argentine customs). For sure there will be R5 cars from Chile, Paraguay and Bolivia on the events near the borders, but it's very unlikely to see a R5 from a local driver all the season.

The reasons for the creation of the Maxy Rally are still the same today, very high taxes, car/kit providers from Europe, very long customs time to release parts, and our currency moving up and down like crazy compared with the American Dollar. All those condiments makes the MR the best option, even if it has become a bit out of date or if it looks expensive to buy. The real beneffit is to be able to build and repair the cars with the fewer need of imported material for maintenance.

On the other side, most of the fastest drivers are team owners at the end of their profesional carrers, so the MR fit very well their expectations of competition/fun/bussines. The rest of the drivers are young drivers learning how to drive a 4WD car, or men with bussines that allow them to drive some races a year (others do the complete championship). The more talented young drivers will go to race with R5 on CODASUR events if they can (as Nicolas Diaz and Martin Suriani). In 2019 there was a new champion (Miguel Baldoni) after 13 years of Villagra(9)/Ligato(4) titles.

Baldoni was close to miss the season at the begining of the year because lack of funds. Alejandro Levy, the owner of Tango Rally Team (now the same owner of the CARX series) facilited him the car. This team was Ligato's team, but Ligato has been diagnosed with cancer in 2018 and he sold the team to Levy. Thankfully Ligato recovered well and made a great comeback in 2019 fighting with Baldoni until the last race for the championship.

About the cars, there has been near 10 MR turbo cars at every event plus some MR atmospheric cars. Some old cars has been converted to turbo version. Because the amount of atmospheric version cars, they had a separate category (RC2A) last two years. The Toyota Etios R4 (Oreca kit from RC Competicion) has taken part of some races this year. A big part of these cars run at the CARX (rallycross) championship too.

For 2020 there will be new cars. CEO Team is working on a Toyota Etios MR turbo for Nadia Cutro. The champion of the RC2A category (the young Martin Suriani) will be part of the RC2 turbo championship with his Peugeot 208 (updated with a turbo engine). Some other drivers that last year jumped from RC2N to RC2A will jump again into the turbo RC2 class.

There was 24 RC2 different entrances and 14 RC2A in 2019, so maybe in 2020 we could see the same amount with some RC2A converted to RC2. Some drivers moved from one class to the other through the year, so the total number is fewer.

2019 MR cars from Rally and CARX:
Ford Fiesta
Peugeot 207
Peugeot 208
Citroen DS3
VW Gol
VW Polo
Toyota Etios (R4)
Chevrolet Agile
Chevrolet Onix
Audi A1
Renault Clio

There are two good youtube channels to see the best action: RallyArgentino and CARX

[Damian Baldi]

Two other things to point. The Group-N cars have been bound to update the fuel cell with a huge cost compared with the cost of the car, so many cars left the championship this season.

There were two Maxi Rally N attempts. One was a VW Gol build/rebuild using the MR turbo engine (with less turbo pressure) and the H gearbox of a Subaru group-N.

There is a video at youtube of Patricia Pita from Uruguay, showing his Maxy Rally N. Maybe we could see MR-N in the future as a replacement of the MR atmospheric and group-n.

[Damian Baldi]

To have an idea about the price, there is a Peugeot 208 Maxi Rally turbo for sale at 135.000 american dollars.

It have Motec electronics, Reiger dampers and it looks complete. It's a six years old car, raced at the "Mar y Sierras" category.

https://auto.mercadolibre.com.ar/MLA-829244853-peugeot-208-maxi-rally-turbo-_JM#position=3&type=item&tracking_id=04ac030d-0d82-40f2-8e02-e8de34fe385e

[Co-driven]

One thing is to ask for this price, other thing is being able to sell it for this price...