Lotus-Renault V Team Lotus

[CNR]

http://chiefofficers.net/888333888/cms/index.php/news/special_interest/motorsport/motorsport_battle_over_lotus_name_becomes_surreal
Battle over Lotus name becomes surreal


The deal is done but the news hasn't been released by either party, it appears. Group Lotus, the wholly owned subsidiary of Malaysian car manufacturer Proton, is to buy out the 25% of Renault F1 team that is owned by .... Renault. But Renault will keep their name on the car. Whose logo will be on the nose-cone of the Lotus-Renault remains to be seen.
By making the investment and re-branding the Renault outfit, Group Lotus expect to immediately be ahead of the Team Lotus cars in 2011.Renault - which has many years F1 experience (it was, at one time, the Benetton team) finished 5th this year aided by the impossibility of overtaking in the last race of the season in Abu Dhabi; Lotus Racing finished 10th in its first season - a remarkable achievement.

[Sonic]

*slap hand head*

[gloomyDAY]

http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/54/pope_face_palm.jpg

[LJH1225]

Just came across this website - really goes into detail about the whole Lotus thing - certainly makes things clear where things stand....

http://www.saveteamlotus.com/

[LJH1225]

Just came across this - goes into a lot of detail about the "Lotus Wars"...

http://www.saveteamlotus.com/

I hope Fernandes comes to his senses and fights for Team Lotus! Would hate to see Proton and Group Lotus just walk away with something they never had....

[nigelred5]

Fernandez- Proton F1 Malaysia
Group Lotus- Lotus-Renault F1

Proton wants to promote the Lotus Brand via racing = makes sense. Proton essentially pays Fernandez for the rights he purchased to the Lotus name by promoting Proton. Proton/ Group Lotus keep Cosworth happy after dropping their F1 engines by agreeing to a tie with Cosworth for Lotus badged cosworth engines in Indycar.

Those Malaysian Ringgit are getting around!

[nigelred5]

I really could care less. It's not like this was truly "Lotus Racing" Let Lotus use the Lotus name, with proper compensation of course. I like the idea of that compensation coming in the form of Proton marketing and naming of the
"Malaysian" team which makes a hell of a lot more sense. It's not like Fernandes owned team was going to see a dollar of support from the Lotus brand. Win-win

[nigelred5]

we can probably combine the two threads.

[Duchess]

I effing give up, this is bloody ridiculous. Pretty sure Group Lotus is run by maniacal children.

[Dr. Krogshöj]

Just came across this - goes into a lot of detail about the "Lotus Wars"...

http://www.saveteamlotus.com/

I hope Fernandes comes to his senses and fights for Team Lotus! Would hate to see Proton and Group Lotus just walk away with something they never had....

As opposed to Tony Fernandes who also never had it?

I really like Tony Fernandes. He's an extremely nice person and I think his team is poised for success. With Mike Gascoyne at the helm, Renault engines and Red Bull transmission, I expect them to challenge some of the old teams in 2011. His team did the Lotus name justice so far, which was highlighted by the support of the Champan Family.

But I don't believe he has more moral right to the Lotus name than Group Lotus. Yes, Group Lotus was a separate company that wasn't directly involved in Team Lotus's racing activites. But it was founded by Colin Chapman and, legalities aside, for all intents and purposes, Team Lotus was the factory team of Group Lotus. He kept them legally separate to prevent them going down in case the other one goes bankrupt but Team Lotus was used to promote Lotus road cars.

I think at this point, it would be wise if Tony let Group Lotus use the Lotus name in Formula 1 and rebrand his team as Air Asia F1 Team or Tune Racing F1 Team or Fernandes Racing or something like that. Even the Chapmans support Group Lotus now.

I believe this website was set up by David Hunt or people close to him, and its tone suggests that he will be more of a road block to peace than Tony Fernandes himself.

[nigelred5]

IMHO, as soon as Fernandes relents, David Hunt knows the IP he owns is essentially worthless, so I think it will be Hunt fighting Lotus, as he is already on record as saying he will.

[ArrowsFA1]

What a mucking fuddle :rolleyes:

[jens]

But I don't believe he has more moral right to the Lotus name than Group Lotus.

Moral rights or not (this is something that is often subjective and debatable), but Group Lotus leaves an impression of lacking common sense. They get free publicity from a professional racing outfit, but are not satisfied with it and want to "control" things themselves. Lotus Cars has got involved in all kinds of racing series and arguably with taxpayers money with the help of Malaysian government (while Fernandes' team uses his private money). So besides all, I am unsure, for how long can Lotus Cars afford such mammoth program in motorsports. And we are arguing about it, IMO current Lotus Racing is closer to the real Lotus stuff than Renault. Seeing Renault in Lotus' colours wouldn't make too much sense to me, but seeing Lotus as a private racing team based in Norfolk makes.

[ArrowsFA1]

Tony Fernandes has made it clear his team will be "Team Lotus" in 2011 but is predicting battles ahead - http://twitter.com/tonyfernandes/status/9786151787307008

that he wow powerleveling (http://www.upowerleveling.com) not many words, he upturned wow accounts (http://www.accountcheap.com) around to see it from the buy wow gold (http://www.ugamegold.com) table close table cabo, no laughing cheap wow gold (http://www.wowko.com) gather utterance, put softened strain, courteously wow gold (http://www.uorpg.com) asked: "Cabe Monk, I but now .

[ArrowsFA1]

Group Lotus has ramped up its involvement in Formula 1 by becoming title sponsor and a major shareholder in the rebranded Lotus Renault GP Team.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/88616

[janneppi]

All I need to know is which Lotus team Kovalainen drives next year, is it Team Lotus Renault, Renault Lotus team, or perhaps Lotus Renault Team, or Team Renault Lotus?

[Hawkmoon]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/88616

That is a good looking race car. Or would have been if they hadn't gone and ****ed it up by putting red wing end plates on it in deferrence to Total.

[Sonic]

Jesus H Christ! :confused:

Not only do group lotus p!ss all over TEAM Lotus by attempting to pull the rug out from under Tony's team after they have done all the legwork, but now they muddy the waters further by launching in black and gold after Tony Fernandes has specifically said that his team would run in that livery.

As it stands we'll have four black and gold cars competing next season, two for Renault Lotus and another two Lotus Renaults.

What. A. Mess. :( :mad:

[ArrowsFA1]

Dany bahr has done us a favour. Never felt better about our future and Team Lotus. Looks like the trying to hijak our black and gold idea.
http://twitter.com/tonyfernandes/status/12442695762968577

[ShiftingGears]

That is a good looking race car. Or would have been if they hadn't gone and ****ed it up by putting red wing end plates on it in deferrence to Total.

I agree. Looks hideous.


This whole situation is stupid. As ironic as it sounds, Group Lotus appears to be trying to leech off the success of Team Lotus. The Lotus name would be nowhere without Fernandes' team right now.

[Ranger]

That is a good looking race car. Or would have been if they hadn't gone and ****ed it up by putting red wing end plates on it in deferrence to Total.

:up:

Lotus Racing / Team Lotus kickstart the heart of Lotus in F1 and then Group Lotus, unsatisfied that it has been a relative success, launches itself everywhere in motorsport in no time at all and takes a p*ss on Fernandes.

The decision to use black and gold in spite of Tony being a perfect example.

Group Lotus is run by pompous, jealous children.

[ArrowsFA1]

I'm increasingly thinking that the Lotus name should have remained on the pages of motorsport history.

I didn't like "Lotus" returning at the start of the season. For one thing the whole exercise seemed more marketing than anything else, but for another the team, to all intents and purposes, ceased to exist in 1994. There was no connection with the original when Fernandes set his team up, and that didn't change despite being located in Norfolk and having Colin Chapman's cap in a case.

That said I warmed to the team as the season went on. Fernandes seemed genuine in his enthusiasm for Colin Chapman's Lotus F1 team, and the cars looked great in their green and yellow colour scheme. They did pretty well too.

Now, this whole saga is becoming increasingly tawdry and petty. Tony Fernandes and Danny Bahr are behaving like two primary school kids playing tug of war over a name. Both apparently have the right to use "Lotus" in some form but neither are doing it any kind of credit. The use of black & gold by both teams is just another marketing ploy, and for one to follow the other in copying the iconic JPS-Lotus livery is just the latest step an increasingly pathetic schoolyard scrap.

Grow up and sort it out :mad:

[Dr. Krogshöj]

Just to remind everyone: the name of the car unveiled today is Renault, not Lotus Renault, according to the current official FIA entry list. Calling them Lotus Renault would be the equivalent of calling Jenson Button's car a Vodafone McLaren. There is only one Lotus Renault, entered by Team Lotus. Of course, this all could change but that is the situation today.

[Tazio]

I agree. Looks hideous.


The Lotus name would be nowhere without Fernandes' team right now.I think it has gotten a little juice from Tesla.
Other than that crumb I'm in total agreement.

[jens]

When I first saw the livery, I was watching hard to be sure that this isn't green instead of black. In all other motorsport series Group Lotus has recently entered, they have used their own "classical" green and yellow. But now... :laugh:

Perhaps Fernandes should now announce that despite all actually his team will continue using the same colours they had this season - wonder, how would Bahar react. :D

Two Lotuses on the grid next year would be unusual, but then again we also have two Red Bull teams with only slightly different liveries, so perhaps we can get used to it... :p :

[garyshell]

I am so confused by all the variants of Lotus this and Lotus that. But I admit I haven't kept close track of it either. Can someone kindly point me to a flowchart, family tree or time line of the various incarnations including the racing as well as commercial/passenger car variants of the name since Colin started it up?

Gary

[Sonic]

I am so confused by all the variants of Lotus this and Lotus that. But I admit I haven't kept close track of it either. Can someone kindly point me to a flowchart, family tree or time line of the various incarnations including the racing as well as commercial/passenger car variants of the name since Colin started it up?

Gary

You are not the only one!

But I think probably the most important fact in all this is that Lotus cars was sold to GM (I think) when Team Lotus was still very much alive and kicking. In my eyes that confirms that David Hunt, as the owner of Team Lotus, has every right to sell the rights to Tony F.

[I am evil Homer]

But that's the odd thing about all of this...it's only the right to use a name it doesn't make automatically it "Lotus" in any way shape or form as Fernandes and co seem to think. They haven't bought Lotus F1 team they've been allowed to use a name, no more, no less.

So to then say the Lotus company shouldn't use the name of their company to now compete in F1 is not only dumb it's also counterproductive. Even more so with all the name calling and childishness presented by Mike Gascoyne via Twitter thinking they somehow have a moral high ground in all of this - no one is coming out of this with any credit whatsoever - on either side.

I find the Renault-Lotus tie up interesting esp with the stake Lotus has now bought in the F1 team but that's getting lost in all of this.

[UltimateDanGTR]

I don't think I've ever seen a prospective F1 entrant (if you can call group lotus that) act so ridiculously. Clearly, Dany Bahr and his motly crew have been as green as Lotus Racing's cars with envy over the last year, and now they want a slice of the 'Lotus In F1' pie. Copying Team Lotus' future livery really doesn't help either. Quite frankly It all looks pathetic.

One of the two parties will fail, and I can imagine Group Lotus ending up with egg on their face. Team Lotus should stick with their current livery, and not sink to group lotus' levels. I still think Team Lotus will be the moral victors however it ends up.

[VkmSpouge]

The Renault's livery does look good though the red end plates need to be scrapped. I think they should have gone for an all yellow livery to mimic the Camel livery Lotus had, it would also more suit a car that is still a Renault.
I hope Team Lotus sticks to its guns and goes with the black and gold livery.

[Nikki Katz]

Hmph, am pretty annoyed about this. I was actually becoming a bit of a 1Malaysia fan, but won't losing the Lotus name seriously damage their sponsorship chances? And aren't the actual Lotus group still running at a loss? I hope that Renault aren't putting too much reliance on them!

Still, we now have another court case to keep us all entertained in the off-season...

[Hawkmoon]

Just to remind everyone: the name of the car unveiled today is Renault, not Lotus Renault, according to the current official FIA entry list. Calling them Lotus Renault would be the equivalent of calling Jenson Button's car a Vodafone McLaren. There is only one Lotus Renault, entered by Team Lotus. Of course, this all could change but that is the situation today.

Umm, it is a Vodafone McLaren. It's a Vodafone McLaren-Mercedes to be precise.

So calling the Renault a Lotus Renault is appropriate when referring to the full name of the team. Lotus are sponsoring Renault and the sponsor name comes first. It used to be ING Renault for example.

So even though there will be a car called a Renault and a car called a Lotus-Renault there will team called Lotus Renault and another team called (insert sponsor here) Lotus-Renault.

Clear as mud really.

[christophulus]

Umm, it is a Vodafone McLaren. It's a Vodafone McLaren-Mercedes to be precise.

So calling the Renault a Lotus Renault is appropriate when referring to the full name of the team. Lotus are sponsoring Renault and the sponsor name comes first. It used to be ING Renault for example.

So even though there will be a car called a Renault and a car called a Lotus-Renault there will team called Lotus Renault and another team called (insert sponsor here) Lotus-Renault.

Clear as mud really.

The point being that no one refers to the sponsor of the team, just the team name. Fernandes' Team Lotus seems to have the biggest claim to the name, and the whole thing is just making Proton look increasingly stupid.

[VkmSpouge]

Of course in the Constructors' Championship there would only be just one Lotus listed, Fernandez's one.

[yodasarmpit]

I'm not sure why everyone is up in arms about this.

Lotus Renault GP are surely the more legitimate team due to the fact that they are partly owned by Lotus Cars (Proton) and Genii, where as Team Lotus just bought the rights to use the name from David Hunt who had bought the rights in the 90's.

To me the new Lotus Renault is the true Lotus team.

[CNR]

I'm not sure why everyone is up in arms about this.

Lotus Renault GP are surely the more legitimate team due to the fact that they are partly owned by Lotus Cars (Proton) and Genii, where as Team Lotus just bought the rights to use the name from David Hunt who had bought the rights in the 90's.

To me the new Lotus Renault is the true Lotus team.

how can that be so when Lotus Cars was also bought from Hunt ?

[yodasarmpit]

how can that be so when Lotus Cars was also bought from Hunt ?

It was?

I thought they bought Lotus Cars from GM Bugatti, however Proton did give approval for the Lotus name to be used which they have now withdrawn.

[Sonic]

It was?

I thought they bought Lotus Cars from GM Bugatti, however Proton did give approval for the Lotus name to be used which they have now withdrawn.

Yes you are correct. GM bought Lotus cars some time after Chapmans death and sold it too Bugatti who promptly went bankrupt. Proton then stepped in.

Team Lotus was bought by David hunt at the back end of '94 before appearing on the Pacific's in '95

[woody2goody]

I love the Lotus-Renault livery, but i still think they are a bunch of cocks.

What was wrong with Renault as a brand? Arguably a better one given they won titles only 4 years ago, and races as recently as 2008...

[nigelred5]

What was wrong with Renault as a brand? nothing, except that Renault no longer OWNS the Enstone based racing team. Genii Captal and <Group> Lotus Cars now owns the Enstone team, which will continue to be powered by what are essentially customer Renault Engines, as the original Lotus team also did for several years, It is now Lotus, not Renault. Renault no longer owns a F1 racing team. They could just as well call the team Toleman or Benetton, and in reality, could be powered by Ferrari or Mercedes or Cosworth engines in the future.

I still don't feel The IP Fernandes owns is worth a snip. Group Lotus has been participating via sponsorship in Indycar this past season as Team Lotus, in the same Team Lotus BRG and yellow as Fernandes F1 team did and will be (if all goes as planned) participating as a manufacturer in 2012.They also presented cars in black and gold and all yellow liveries similar to other former lotus F1 team colors. Fernandes has a nice race team that will be buying the same Renault customer racing engines.

The difference between the two is one group actually owns a car company called LOTUS, and the other owns a racing team officially known to the FIA and F1 as "Lotus Racing".

Proton/Group lotus are behaving like a bunch of ninnies, but IMHO, they should have the right to race under their company name as a true automobile manufacturer.

[CNR]

http://paultan.org/2010/12/09/team-lotus-chiefs-respond-to-lotus-renault-formation/
1/2 of what you read is bull and the other 1/2 is s**t

Group Lotus boss Dany Bahar isn’t wishing for his opponents to fade away. He told BBC Radio Norfolk: “Not at all (a problem) – for me, four (cars on the grid) are better than two. The controversy, that is something that has mainly been pushed up by media I would say, has been dealt with directly by our shareholders in Malaysia and with the owners of the 1Malaysia Racing Team and doesn’t really touch us.
“However, my personal opinion is that four Lotus brands out there is better than two. I have nothing against that.”

[ArrowsFA1]

Lotus Renault GP are surely the more legitimate team due to the fact that they are partly owned by Lotus Cars (Proton) and Genii, where as Team Lotus just bought the rights to use the name from David Hunt who had bought the rights in the 90's.
Colin Chapman ran Lotus Cars and Team Lotus seperately but they were under the umbrella of a company he owned.

Team Lotus shut its doors in 1994 but David Hunt became the owner of what was left, which essentially was debt and a name.

Lotus Cars has been owned by a number of different companies.

All that remains of the team that Chapman started is the name. There is no team. What the two parties are arguing about is a brand not an F1 racing team.

[I am evil Homer]

how can that be so when Lotus Cars was also bought from Hunt ?

Naming rights associated with motorsport...not a company, not a legal entity. A legal right to use a name, for a year. There's a very drastic difference one apparently Fernandes and Co don't seem to appreciate.

[ArrowsFA1]

how can that be so when Lotus Cars was also bought from Hunt ?
Peter Collins and Peter Wright took over 'Team Lotus' from the Chapman family in December 1990. The team went into administration immediately after the 1994 Italian GP and David Hunt then purchased it in October that year.

David Hunt has never owned Lotus Cars.

[ZEROX]

Now it's official that it will be 2 Lotus on the grid next season.
Kinda get me by surprise there.
Both of it will use Renault engine and i can confirm you that the Lotus Renault will be more powerful than the Team Lotus.
I'm also happy that there're 2 but...something annoy me a little.
Sure, Lotus is combine with Renault team but WHY DOES IT HAS TO BE ON BLACK AND GOLD LIVERLY? It can go on with yellow or that green liverly.

Team Lotus even have mad a contest for that liverly design for their own team.
Now those copycat stole their idea. Yeah, i'm sad this things happen but well, what can i say more, this is Formula One. :(

[shazbot]

Perhaps Gascoigne's bunch should seek to rename themselves BRM or Connaught perhaps!?

[Anubis]

Group Lotus has been participating via sponsorship in Indycar this past season as Team Lotus, in the same Team Lotus BRG and yellow as Fernandes F1 team did and will be (if all goes as planned) participating as a manufacturer in 2012.

I thought the team was still KVRT? Certainly confusing to have Group Lotus using the colours in Indycar and Team Lotus using them in F1. Quite what happens when they start doing the aero package is anyone's guess. There's also the whole GP2 thing to consider, as I thought both Lotuses (Lotii?) were also going to be involved in that?

Renault must be loving it - they still get the gig as engine supplier, and every article makes use of the word Renault about five times.

[ArrowsFA1]

Interesting words (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/88635) from Lotus CEO Dany Bahar in connection with their Renault team ownership:
"Our way of doing things means that at the end of the project we would like to control it ourselves."

Was their decision to end the arrangement with Tony Fernandes an attempt to "control it" themselves? By doing so perhaps they thought they alone would be Lotus in F1, but Fernandes's deal with David Hunt scuppered that plan so now Bahar claims (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/88628) that "four Lotus brands out there is better than two".

:dozey:

[I am evil Homer]

Well it is...if either does well people hear "lotus" and the road manufacturer benefits. I think Bahar's been pretty clever in buying into an estbalished team, one where the owner wanted a way out but without losing face. So now they get decent engines, and a great platform to participate in F1.

[Jag_Warrior]

As much as I wanted to see Lotus return to Formula One, this certainly isn't what I expected... or hoped for. :rolleyes:

This sad, confusing saga reminds me of a scifi TV show ("Tales from the Darkside", I think) I watched where this fellow had been married to a beautiful woman. She died and some time later he concocted a spell to bring her back to life. He was expecting the same beautiful woman that he remembered. But what he got was this horrid looking zombie with rotting flesh... that wanted to wrap her arms around him. :eek:

Clearly, "Team Lotus" died a long time ago. Maybe it would have been better to let the Lotus name rest in peace.

[nigelred5]

I thought the team was still KVRT? Certainly confusing to have Group Lotus using the colours in Indycar and Team Lotus using them in F1. Quite what happens when they start doing the aero package is anyone's guess. There's also the whole GP2 thing to consider, as I thought both Lotuses (Lotii?) were also going to be involved in that?

Renault must be loving it - they still get the gig as engine supplier, and every article makes use of the word Renault about five times.

It is still KVRT, but Takuma Sato's Honda powered Dallara was sponsored by LOTUS and wore the classic Green and yellow colors with twin racing stripes and the traditional thin stripe and Lotus on the sidepod. They also ran a JPS inspired gold and black car, but it just doesn't work with out the actual JPS logis and script IMHO.

FRom the enigne announcemnt:
"said Dany Bahar, CEO of Group Lotus. “This year, we teamed up with KV Racing for IndyCar and we will significantly increase our participation next year. However in 2012 IndyCar competitors will have the exciting opportunity to choose an IndyCar with a Lotus engine and body kit, immediately become part of a legacy that is Lotus: one of the most innovative and successful sports and racing car brands in the world.”

In essence, Lotus "customer cars" for Indycar.

[Mia 01]

Both teams is acting childish.

[UltimateDanGTR]

Both teams is acting childish.

I fail to see what Team Lotus have done wrong.

[snellman]

i'm glad fernandes dropped the JPS livery, just shows he's the bigger man of the two.

[Sonic]

I fail to see what Team Lotus have done wrong.

Indeed. Here's a team that brought the Lotus name back to F1 with a five year licence to the brand (IIRC) and new head honcho Bahar comes and pulls the rug out.

Group Lotus want to be a serious manufacture of road cars (and their new line up looks yummy) but the fact remains that at the moment they are a loss making organization so why the hell weren't they happy with getting all the free publicity of TF's Lotus without having to stump up the millions they must now be investing in Renault.

[Giuseppe F1]

Lotus Racing release Fauzy........is he on his way to Lotus Renault? ;D

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/88671

[ZEROX]

Lotus Racing release Fauzy........is he on his way to Lotus Renault? ;D

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/88671

Hope so...
Move to a better team is the best for him. ^^
It's not like Team Lotus sucks but he's 28 years old now. :P
Fast progression could be better...or worse. lol.

[F1boat]

very stupid way to act from grown up people. Shocking.

[Malbec]

Well it is...if either does well people hear "lotus" and the road manufacturer benefits. I think Bahar's been pretty clever in buying into an estbalished team, one where the owner wanted a way out but without losing face. So now they get decent engines, and a great platform to participate in F1.

The only problem with that is that the chassis will remain titled 'Renault', and on the race timing screens on TV we'll see how well Kubica is doing in his Renault, not Lotus. The Lotus name won't appear during the races at all. By merely being the title sponsor they've missed out massively. And if they want to have the chassis renamed Lotus they will have to ask the rest of the grid for permission to do so including Fernandes who may be slightly obstructive in that regard.

Group Lotus would be better off spending their money actually designing and developing real cars they can sell rather than frittering it away sponsoring every team that moved. I doubt they'll be around long enough to see out the duration of the contract they've signed with Genii.

[DazzlaF1]

The only problem with that is that the chassis will remain titled 'Renault', and on the race timing screens on TV we'll see how well Kubica is doing in his Renault, not Lotus. The Lotus name won't appear during the races at all. By merely being the title sponsor they've missed out massively. And if they want to have the chassis renamed Lotus they will have to ask the rest of the grid for permission to do so including Fernandes who may be slightly obstructive in that regard.

Group Lotus would be better off spending their money actually designing and developing real cars they can sell rather than frittering it away sponsoring every team that moved. I doubt they'll be around long enough to see out the duration of the contract they've signed with Genii.

Or even better, go into partnership with the team on the grid that are already called Lotus. It just makes no sense at all on Proton's part.

Im siding with Fernandes on this one, he's got the blessings from the Chapman family and the naming rights from David Hunt, that to me is enough.

[UltimateDanGTR]

Or even better, go into partnership with the team on the grid that are already called Lotus. It just makes no sense at all on Proton's part.

Im siding with Fernandes on this one, he's got the blessings from the Chapman family and the naming rights from David Hunt, that to me is enough.

:up:

[Malbec]

Or even better, go into partnership with the team on the grid that are already called Lotus. It just makes no sense at all on Proton's part.

Or one move better than that would have been not to spend any money getting involved in F1 at all and let Fernandes spend his own money promoting the Lotus name, most laypeople wouldn't have had a clue the two companies were unrelated. Its all crazy.

[Mia 01]

Thoose people are only trying to suck the last drop out of the name. Vultures, childish ones.

Lotus are not producing a F1 car, the company should be glad if they are clever enough to loan moore money for the production of their road cars.

[SGWilko]

Interesting little ditty on this saga on JA on F1 blog....

http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2010/12/fernandes-no-chance-of-a-deal-on-lotus-now-it-goes-legal/

[gloomyDAY]

Tony Fernandes has been quite calm and reserved throughout this entire ordeal. Team Lotus was developed by Fernandes and now Bahar is coming in to take that notoriety out of his grasp. I completely agree with Tony's stance that Reanult are the instigators of this fiasco (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/88715) and an agreement should be reached behind closed doors.

I have a bad feeling that we will see Team Lotus sink since Bernie is tied up with Genii Capital, therefore, in bed with Gerard Lopez. I just hope that Team Lotus can achieve results and beat the living **** out of Renault next season.

[aryan]

I'm siding with Tony Fernandes & Co on this one as well.

He's the one who brought Lotus back to F1. Yes, arguably it's not the same team that went bankrupt in 1994, but he's got the blessing from Chapman family, he made a livery true to Lotus' heart, he's built this team from the ground up. And to me, they were the only professional new team of 2010, handily beating out HRT & Virgin.

Not to mention how close the factory is to the original Team Lotus factory, and the naming rights from David Hunt.

Group Lotus is coming across as a spoilt child, who now wants to have his cake and eat it too. I love their road cars, but they are acting in bad faith here IMO.

[CNR]

cigarette advertising laws world wide
could the colors of group lotus cars be band under cigarette advertising laws ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tobacco_advertising

there is now a blanket ban on advertising in Europe, and the cars are not allowed to show any links with the tobacco companies and tobacco advertising started to exit.

Q: dose colors = link ?

[V12]

cigarette advertising laws world wide
could the colors of group lotus cars be band under cigarette advertising laws ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tobacco_advertising


Q: dose colors = link ?

It's a grey area to be honest. Was last year's Renault (yellow + black) subliminally advertising Benson & Hedges? Of course it wasn't, but at the end of the day you can't ban a simple colour scheme, or you shouldn't anyway.

People linking black & gold to JPS will already be aware of the cigarette brand. An innocent young kid with no knowledge of cigarette packets will see a black and gold car and nothing more, so no harm done.

[SGWilko]

It's a grey area to be honest. Was last year's Renault (yellow + black) subliminally advertising Benson & Hedges? Of course it wasn't, but at the end of the day you can't ban a simple colour scheme, or you shouldn't anyway.

People linking black & gold to JPS will already be aware of the cigarette brand. An innocent young kid with no knowledge of cigarette packets will see a black and gold car and nothing more, so no harm done.

B&H colours are gloss gold colour, which EJ and his team ran in '96, but it did not work on TV, so they changed to yellow.

Renault, most likely before B&H came to F1, have traditionally run yellow and black.

The black and gold however is something you would traditionally associate, in F1 circles, with JPS and Lotus.

[nigelred5]

Yet here, there would be little to no association since they don't sell JPS in the U.S.

[SGWilko]

Yet here, there would be little to no association since they don't sell JPS in the U.S.

Best not race in the US then...

...oh, they don't ATM.......

[V12]

And on the subject of JPS, which I have occasionally due to usually being the cheapest available, the most common JP's sold, in the shops in my area anyway, tend to be blue and gold, rather than black and gold.

[ykiki]

As kids growing up in the US in the '70s, my brother & I saw the Lotus 72 and thought they were really cool because of the black/gold color scheme. Since a lot of Indy cars were named "Special", we figured John Player Special cars were just named after some guy named John Player (hey, I was 6).

It wasn't until the cars were run without the JPS wording that we found out it was a tobacco brand! How's that for irony?

[nigelred5]

As kids growing up in the US in the '70s, my brother & I saw the Lotus 72 and thought they were really cool because of the black/gold color scheme. Since a lot of Indy cars were named "Special", we figured John Player Special cars were just named after some guy named John Player (hey, I was 6).

It wasn't until the cars were run without the JPS wording that we found out it was a tobacco brand! How's that for irony?

I'll admit I was probably 12-13 years old before I knew that myself when the Lotuc cars reverted to the green and gold with essex logos. It wasn't like we saw them on the shelves or being smoked anywhere.

[ArrowsFA1]

I wonder why neither of the Lotus teams went for this colour scheme:

http://www.hiroboy.com/catalog/product_images/79m-2.jpg

[maxter]

Maybe because it's awful.



:P

[Dave B]

If forced to choose, I'd support the Fernades team over the rebadged Renault any day. They've demonstrated exactly how a new F1 team should be organised: no hyperbolic promises, good solid engineering, engaging with the public and media, and a calm methodical approach to their business.

Unlikely though it is, I hope they outscore Renault-Lada-Genii-Lotus in 2011.

[MrMetro]

Chapman family back Group Lotus:http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/88759

[DazzlaF1]

Putting aside he wrangling over naming rights, you've got to admire the Fernandes' operation for their professinalism and then talking about potential for the future, mostly Gascoyne mentioning about looking to develop their own windtunnel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAyEWYaIZpg&feature=sub

Also, they announced the winning entry for their Black/Gold livery competition, shame they cant use this now cos this would have looked awesome

http://www.electroduo.com/LotusT128EF/index.html

[CNR]

if i was Fernandes i would start a new air line call it air lotus and use that name and tell all to f88koff

[gloomyDAY]

Putting aside he wrangling over naming rights, you've got to admire the Fernandes' operation for their professinalism and then talking about potential for the future, mostly Gascoyne mentioning about looking to develop their own windtunnel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAyEWYaIZpg&feature=sub

Also, they announced the winning entry for their Black/Gold livery competition, shame they cant use this now cos this would have looked awesome

http://www.electroduo.com/LotusT128EF/index.htmlI could not agree more. I love rooting for the underdog and next year I am pulling for Fernandes. Also, that livery is a lot better than the ketchup stained wings that Renault have on their cars. If you're going to copy someone else's idea, then do it right.

[jens]

Chapman family back Group Lotus:http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/88759

Hmm... The first suspicious thought that comes to mind is that whether the "support" of Chapmans has been bought by Bahar. :p :

Anyway, would be fun if the following scenario happened: Chapmans reach a conclusion that none of the Lotus is a real one and they bid for an F1 entry by themselves under the name of Classic Team Lotus, so we would have three Lotus teams in F1. :p :

[Malbec]

Hmm... The first suspicious thought that comes to mind is that whether the "support" of Chapmans has been bought by Bahar. :p :


Of course it has! How many celebrities were paid to attend Lotus' stand at the Paris car show?

Bahar would be a lot more credible if he spent more money on developing the cars, improving build quality and most importantly expanding and improving the dealer network but he'd rather spend it on frivolous racing and celebrity endorsements. Meanwhile Ron Dennis is showing how you really need to go about things if you want to take on Porsche and Ferrari by his slow but sure efforts to build up the McLaren manufacturing and distribution base for the MP4/12C thing.

There's a strong rumour going round that Bahar is doing what he's doing so he can find a sugardaddy Middle Eastern or Chinese buyer who can buy Lotus for an inflated price in the mistaken belief the Norfolk maker is going somewhere.... Thats the only way he'll end up winning from the mess he's getting himself into.

[Dave B]

Renault (or whatever they're called this week) have unveiled the definitive version of the black'n'gold livery at Autosport:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/88890

[Mark]

I like it! Very distinctive!

[DazzlaF1]

I like it! Very distinctive!

Looks a bit too plain for my liking, seems like they lost a couple of sponsors since the original press release of the livery

[Mia 01]

The Lotus "saga" continiue.
And HRT?!
http://www.grandprix.com/columns/maurice-hamilton/old-mos-almanac.html

[Dave B]

The court case has now been scheduled for March 21st, which is after the start of the season in Bahrain but before Australia!

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/89063

[SGWilko]

The court case has now been scheduled for March 21st, which is after the start of the season in Bahrain but before Australia!

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/89063

So, whoever loses, has to rapidly design, build and operate a time machine......

I mean, how hard could it be for all aprties to schedule the case to be heard before the season starts? :crazy: