What if ........ ?

[Sulland]

On this forum many thoughts and ideas have been written about the way we would like FIA to go for the RallySport in the future.

The past has shown that if the regulations stipulate cars to be very sophisticated, they become expensive and the cars of the manufacturers are superior to the cars privateers can buy. That again lead to that very few in reality can win a WRC round, that leads to predictable results, and the excitement disappear !

This time around FIA took the signals from the bear fact of manufacturers that had the money to build WRCars, the economic situation in the world, and wanted to make simpler, and more accessible cars for everyone.
During the process it became clear where the real power was - Not in FIA but among the two existing manufacturers, and the Media/TV production company.

The result is that we end up in the same situation as before, and not closer to the IRC way of doing business, that also resembles the US way - simple cars that can be bought from private teams, and with a chance of winning.

The result is that still almost all drivers have to work harder to get sponsor money to buy themselves into a team, and spend more time doing that than drive a car, and that being good at that job means more than being a talented driver.
What if FIA did what they planned from the beginning, to run S2000 NA as top category for a few years, see how it went, and use time on what a future WRCar should look like, and with cost as a leading factor.
Then we would from 2011 have around 100-150 cars that in principle could fight in the top for the teams to buy. And drivers from National series could compete at the WRC level, and show talent. We need to get back to that more drivers are paid to drive, but then privat teams need to get hold of the cars to fight for victory - then sponsors will come in, and drivers could drive, and not hunt sponsors all the time.

I for one am sorry about this fact, but hopefully FIA will see this better next time around, and have the courage to be the strategic leaders they are put there to be, and not be dictated by others that have their own agenda, and not the drivers and fans best interest in mind.

What if.......

[DonJippo]

If your full season WRC campaign is depending of the 100k€, which is appr. the price difference between new 1.6T WRC and S2000, don't you think you are in wrong sport?

[Sulland]

If your full season WRC campaign is depending of the 100k€, which is appr. the price difference between new 1.6T WRC and S2000, don't you think you are in wrong sport?


:p And what is the price for a new DS3 WRC or a Fiesta WRC ?
And how many DS3s will be sold to privat teams in 2011 ?

[rp]

If your full season WRC campaign is depending of the 100k€, which is appr. the price difference between new 1.6T WRC and S2000, don't you think you are in wrong sport?

Can not compare! Think about the situation if the top class next year would be current SWRC. They would be works Citroen (surely they had developed DS3 S2000), Ford, Skoda, Proton and probably also Fiat if they had known couple of years ago that S2000 will be the main class. Mini and Prodrive could be also there and then large amount of private teams like Kronos with Peugeot 207 S2000, Škoda UK, PH Sport, Astra, Grifone and so on...

If FIA had been up to date and think about the future they would have decided at least in 2008 (after Subaru and Suzuki pulled out) that 2.0T World Rally Cars will be abandoned after the season 2009 or 2010 and S2000 will be the main class.

Now it can be the situation that next year they will be only three drivers aiming for the wins (Loeb, Ogier, Latvala). Hirvonen is secured fourth and Petter and Sordo are out of the work. All the other World Rally Car drivers have bought their places and after Ostberg and Henning they will be only tourist drivers like Villagra, Al Qassimi, Wilson, Räikkönen and Block. Mini is coming and Meeke is able to compete with the best, but who knows...

But it is not only FIA to blame. Citroen and Ford wanted the 1.6T WRC. The competition in the S2000 class could have been too tight. Now they can keep their advantage and control all the cars just like they want and make business. It is very sad, because it could have been so great and rallying really deserved much more than now...

[morganmilan]

Can not compare! Think about the situation if the top class next year would be current SWRC. They would be works Citroen (surely they had developed DS3 S2000), Ford, Skoda, Proton and probably also Fiat if they had known couple of years ago that S2000 will be the main class. Mini and Prodrive could be also there and then large amount of private teams like Kronos with Peugeot 207 S2000, Škoda UK, PH Sport, Astra, Grifone and so on...

If FIA had been up to date and think about the future they would have decided at least in 2008 (after Subaru and Suzuki pulled out) that 2.0T World Rally Cars will be abandoned after the season 2009 or 2010 and S2000 will be the main class.

Now it can be the situation that next year they will be only three drivers aiming for the wins (Loeb, Ogier, Latvala). Hirvonen is secured fourth and Petter and Sordo are out of the work. All the other World Rally Car drivers have bought their places and after Ostberg and Henning they will be only tourist drivers like Villagra, Al Qassimi, Wilson, Räikkönen and Block. Mini is coming and Meeke is able to compete with the best, but who knows...

But it is not only FIA to blame. Citroen and Ford wanted the 1.6T WRC. The competition in the S2000 class could have been too tight. Now they can keep their advantage and control all the cars just like they want and make business. It is very sad, because it could have been so great and rallying really deserved much more than now...
Short-term: +1. Long-term: time will say :rolleyes:

[OldF]

”Championship rules for 2011 are expected to be published by FIA shortly, and it is assumed that the primary category World Championship Cars (the old “M1” cars, entered by teams which must contest the full series) will be limited to 2011 World Rally Cars, while the “M2” second level teams can use any type of car.”

http://mag.gpweek.com/ (issue 108, page 49)

Does the “any type of car” include 2010 world rally cars?

[Barreis]

WRC 1.6T should cost 100 000 euro's and then it will be competitors from everywhere and not only from "Disneyland"..

[Brother John]

But it is not only FIA to blame. Citroen and Ford wanted the 1.6T WRC. The competition in the S2000 class could have been too tight. Now they can keep their advantage and control all the cars just like they want and make business. It is very sad, because it could have been so great and rallying really deserved much more than now...


Yes FIA, Citroën and Ford destroy and decides everything of the rally sport also concerning the future of rally.
They see this only as " BIG BUSSINES" and are not intrested what we think.
As long as there are idiots that buys this type of cars there will change nothing.
Back to reality and cheaper is what they have to do and not try to make from rally a new circus like F1.

[rjbetty]

Can't understand why the production cars are now going to be 2 wheel drive. As they are now, they could be quite competitive and make things a bit more interesting, but now that won't be. The change must be to keep them out of the way of the top cars and make things predictable.

[morganmilan]

Can't understand why the production cars are now going to be 2 wheel drive. As they are now, they could be quite competitive and make things a bit more interesting, but now that won't be. The change must be to keep them out of the way of the top cars and make things predictable.
Not really. We´ll still have R4 and N4 cars 4WD as Mitsus and Subs. Only Renault Megane is homologated R4 2WD up by now

[OldF]

Not really. We´ll still have R4 and N4 cars 4WD as Mitsus and Subs. Only Renault Megane is homologated R4 2WD up by now

Remember reading somewhere that the R4 will be only for 4WD cars.

Renault Megane N4 is not homologated yet.

[Mise]

:p And what is the price for a new DS3 WRC or a Fiesta WRC ?
And how many DS3s will be sold to privat teams in 2011 ?

Vauhdin Maailma had an article about M-Sport where Malcom said they don't sell their cars to privateers. They provide few cars to M2 teams but they will be in charge.

They start selling them eventually, but not in the near future.

[morganmilan]

Remember reading somewhere that the R4 will be only for 4WD cars.

Renault Megane N4 is not homologated yet.
Thnx. So, would we have Mitsus and Subs R4 (with kit) and Mitsus, Subs and Megane N4 (without kits)?

[Sulland]

Yes FIA, Citroën and Ford destroy and decides everything of the rally sport also concerning the future of rally.
They see this only as " BIG BUSSINES" and are not intrested what we think.
As long as there are idiots that buys this type of cars there will change nothing.
Back to reality and cheaper is what they have to do and not try to make from rally a new circus like F1.

Yes, big business is definitely a part of the picture here, and that is ok.
But if you look at this from a business perspective, it would seem smarter also to be able to sell cars to privateers, and that national drivers would buy a Super Production car for the national series, and drivers/teams that would like to do WRC can buy the WRC kit, bolt it on and be ready to go.

S2000 manufacturers have sold 256 cars in a few years, for 250-300k € a piece, not bad from a business perspective, and with spares even better.
The more drivers that drive your car in rallies and do well around the world, the more normal cars you will sell to the fans !

I just fail to see the long term plan of FIA and the manufacturers with the scheme they are currently aiming for.

Ford using M-Sport and PSA Sport have been using different strategies in the past, but now it seems M-Sport are getting closer to PSA - Result fewer WRC cars on the market !

[Barreis]

The biggest problem is that this cars shoudn't cost more then 70 000 euros.. That's reality.. :)

[OldF]

The biggest problem is that this cars shoudn't cost more then 70 000 euros.. That's reality.. :)

A drop of 30.000 € in day. Wait for few days and you get them for free. :D

[OldF]

FIA wants M-Sport and Citroen (and all future manufacturers in WRC) to sell the cars to privateers but they (FIA) was so late out (sometimes during the summer) with the final rules about the engine so M-Sport and Citroen didn’t had much time tom prepare the cars for the beginning of the season.

I the article that Mise refers to Malcom say “We won’t be selling any car for at least the 6 first months. We want to keep the technology and know-how to ourselves. We are going to sell them some day, but later on.”

From Christian Loriaux:

“We do the engineer / design work with a team that consists of eight persons vs. 40 at Citroen.”

“The building cost of the new 1.6T engine will be at least twice compared to the current WRC engine.”

“If I’d two years ago understood the potential and impressiveness of the S2000 cars, I would never been spoken for the 1.6T engine”, confess Loriaux.

“90% percents of the parts in the body shell and transmission are the same as in the S2000.”

I also remember that Malcom Wilson critized the decision to use direct injection engines.

Something bad and something good but IMO the direct injection engine is still the future.

[Daniel]

The FIA needed to tell Moron-Sport and PSA to go **** themselves if they didn't want to play by the rules the FIA laid out. If PSA and M-Sport didn't play next year you know Kia or Proton or some other 3rd rate manufacturer would built a car and happily been world champion.

[Sulland]

“If I’d two years ago understood the potential and impressiveness of the S2000 cars, I would never been spoken for the 1.6T engine”, confess Loriaux.

A lot of us have seen this in IRC for a few seasons already, but why did he not speak out when he had the chance to make a difference ?

[Daniel]

Because it's a lot better for Moron-Sport to have a totally new formula with less competitors than to have strong competition as in the IRC

[Barreis]

Money turns the world around..

[AndyRAC]

Because it's a lot better for Moron-Sport to have a totally new formula with less competitors than to have strong competition as in the IRC

Because they are thinking of themselves, as a business, as opposed to what is best for the sport. As long as Ford/Citroen appear to run the sport, things won't progress as much as they should. We should have had the S2000's to 2013, then bring in a new formula, maybe S1.4T/S1.6T. There are far more Manufacturers with S2000's, than those who have/are building S1.6T.
£348,000 for a SuperProduction Mini, how much is the 'full fat' version going to cost? Ford/Citroen moan about costs, yet wanted the S1.6T cars :rolleyes:
Hardly encouraging new Manufacturers, as yet....

[OldF]

A lot of us have seen this in IRC for a few seasons already, but why did he not speak out when he had the chance to make a difference ?

Maybe the train was going on with such speed by the time he realized it, that it was hard to stop at that point.


£348,000 for a SuperProduction Mini, how much is the 'full fat' version going to cost?

What would you pay for a revised front bumper, bigger rear wing, plastic side windows, slightly lighter flywheel and bigger brakes with re-circulated water-cooling? The aero kit (front bumper + rear wing) are mandatory but the rest are optional in WRC.

Few years ago there was an article of a guy that built a replica of the WRC Focus and called M-Sport and asked for the price for a rear wing. The price was 10.000 £.

The good thong with this is the same basic car can be used in both regional and WRC rallies. The bad thing is that the S2000 (or Super production or whatever S2000 will be called in the future) will be a lot more expensive compared to current ones.

[Daniel]

Because they are thinking of themselves, as a business, as opposed to what is best for the sport. As long as Ford/Citroen appear to run the sport, things won't progress as much as they should. We should have had the S2000's to 2013, then bring in a new formula, maybe S1.4T/S1.6T. There are far more Manufacturers with S2000's, than those who have/are building S1.6T.
£348,000 for a SuperProduction Mini, how much is the 'full fat' version going to cost? Ford/Citroen moan about costs, yet wanted the S1.6T cars :rolleyes:
Hardly encouraging new Manufacturers, as yet....
Like I said, the FIA should have done what it needed to and bollocks what the current teams said. They've done that before, just in a negative way like when they banned 3rd drivers.....

[Barreis]

Biggest mistake..