3d Manufacturer to be announced tomorrow

[Hoop-98]

Possibly Lotus which would likely mean Cosworth too. Official announcement tomorrow at the LA show (From Cavin Tweet)

rh

[IowaBoyinIndy]

Possibly Lotus which would likely mean Cosworth too. Official announcement tomorrow at the LA show (From Cavin Tweet)

rh

It is Lotus/Cosworth per the Indianapolis Star and Robin Miller. IBiI

[MDS]

I've been saying this for a while now.

Here's the Autoweek story

http://www.autoweek.com/article/20101117/IRL/101119867

[NickFalzone]

Great news.

[nigelred5]

I said a while Lotus and Kalkoven just needed to decide how big the check to Coswoorth needed to be. Its been a while since one team owner essentially brought their own engine and chasssis to indycar and now we have two! Can kalkoven beat penske??? Its a tually starting to suck that we have to wait a year and a half!!!

[TURN3]

Truly awesome news! I think all of us have seen this one coming for a long time. I agree with whoever it was that said it is going to suck to wait until '12.

[Mark in Oshawa]

http://www.nationalspeedsportnews.com/uncategorized/lotus-to-supply-indycar-engines/

National Speed Sport News has it down as a done deal. Lotus is in....

I hope they make their own body and wing package...

Maybe KK will get a driver or two to put the car in Victory Circle as opposed to eating concrete!

[Chris R]

wow, this string of announcements is more than I ever expected/hoped for,,,, Great work Randy Bernard and his team..... For the first time in ages I am really excited about indycar!!!

[SUBARUTEAM]

i wonder how many engines to each need to produce per year to pay for the overheads?

[TURN3]

i wonder how many engines to each need to produce per year to pay for the overheads?

THAT is a very good question. If Lotus-Cosworth only signs up KV, that isn't doing much for Cosworth. I'm sure there are all sorts of variables in that scenario though. Of course KV's engine likely is at a bargain comparitively speaking. And Cosworth does still have some F1 teams to pay the bills, for now.

[Mad_Hatter]

2012 is shaping to be a great season.

[MDS]

Randy has said its imparative that each engine manufacture have about a third of the the field so that no one become too dominate. I don't know how they would enforce that, but that's their plan.

A possible breakdown might look like this, assuming the teams stay at their current car count. This is all speculation as some new teams will probably come in and at least one or two existing teams are in danger of folding, but this sort of breakdown would leave each team with about eight entries apiece.

Honda
Target Ganassi
Andretti Autosport/AFS
Dryer and Reinbold

Chevy
Penske
Panther
de Ferran Dragon
AJFE
Sarah Fisher Racing

Lotus
KV Racing
FAZZT
Newman Haas
HVM

There are some obvious loyalties and after that it would come down to which team gets the best deal from which manufacture. Yes there won't be "Factory teams" but we all know some will get more help than others.


THAT is a very good question. If Lotus-Cosworth only signs up KV, that isn't doing much for Cosworth. I'm sure there are all sorts of variables in that scenario though. Of course KV's engine likely is at a bargain comparitively speaking. And Cosworth does still have some F1 teams to pay the bills, for now.

Only a small fraction of Cosworth's revenue stream comes from racing. Most of what Cosworth does is make components for automotive and aviation engines. They also spec build engines and electronics for road and race cars. They're like Ilmor, but bigger.

[Enjun Pullr]

"IndyCar officials revealed that the 2012 engine will feature up to 100 extra horsepower in the "push-to-pass" function, and that prices for a year-long engine lease will be capped at $690,000 if there is competition between manufacturers and $575,000 if there is a sole supplier."

Source article from July 14, 2010:

http://sports.espn.go.com/rpm/racing/indycar/columns/story?columnist=oreovicz_john&id=5379836

Sure doesn't look like recouping investment costs is the strategy: this is a marketing exercise. Ten entrants per manufacturer gets you $7M in invoices, be generous and call it $10M if you add in rebuilds and replacement costs for crash-damaged units.

That's not going to be half the amount of the investment required for each of the three manufacturers.

[edv]

What a welcome change it would be to hear engines screaming above 15,000 rpm! And turbos to boot!

Anyone know what the restrictions are on the new engines?
Is the push-to-pass gonna be a Rev boost, turbo (psi) boost or fuel (afr) boost?

[methanolHuffer]

Having Lotus /Cosworth will be very nice.

I can't help myself into hoping a FIAT entry with rosso finish and gold painted wheels will also make its way onto the grid. But it will probably be a Dodge Ram badge or Alfa Romeo - which is absolutely nothing to sneeze at either.

And hopefully VAG will see how cool it is to get people excited again.

[NickFalzone]

Chevy, Lotus engines could infuse $30 million annually into marketing IndyCar:

http://www.ibj.com/the-score/2010/11/18/new-engine-makers-could-fuel-indycar-with-30-million-in-marketing/PARAMS/post/23520

[Enjun Pullr]

By supplying 25 teams with $935K engine leases (plus rebuild and crash damage replacements), Honda was invoicing somewhere around $25M.

With ten leases at the new cap of $690K, that figure drops to below $10M.

Honda had no major ongoing development costs to fund: that has certainly changed now too.

Last year funding from the Honda tree paid for two seats and subsidized five events as presenting sponsors. Berkman of HPD says they were content to operate on a break-even basis: Honda's return is in the promotional exposure.

So the money coming into the Series from the new manufacturers had better be big, and it's pretty hard to count it all as an increase. It's coming from more investors and enabling competition, which is a great change in itself.

But the cost to teams just went up, and the R&D budgets of the engine builders doesn't affect the promotional expenditures on the Series. That will take more spending from all three manufacturers: if it appears, great. Seems a bit premature to be counting it though.

The wave will be generated by other corporations joining in on the various levels of sponsorship involvement. There is a lot more selling to be done.

[Enjun Pullr]

Wow, if anyone uttered the name "Cosworth", I sure missed it.

[NickFalzone]

Press conference had Randy, Parnelli, and the Lotus president. I didn't watch the whole thing but from what I heard: Lotus is building their own engine, and Lotus is also building the custom aero pieces. I think it's great that all 3 engine manus will now also be providing their own aero kits. I'm not sure what to think about Lotus building their own engine, certainly will be the underdog..

[MDS]

Actually Honda hasn't show any interest in building an aero kit at this point, but with Lotus and Chevy doing so might prompt them to do so, especially if the only other kit manufacture would be Dallara.

[TURN3]

Count me in as an official Lotus fan. Good Lord I hope they get a decent team or two. I know Chevy, being American, will be the sentimental favorite but I have to be different. And Honda has been rammed down our throats for too long. I'm with Lotus!

[DBell]

Wow, if anyone uttered the name "Cosworth", I sure missed it.

I noticed that also. But when you factor in their relationship with KV and who owns Cosworth. then it almost has to be. I can't see them building their own engine, they don't even build their own engines for their street cars.

But what do I know? I also said I couldn't see them spending the money on an engine program and I missed the mark with that one.

[Enjun Pullr]

DBell, you know just as much as anyone here, and we are all being fed mystery meat.

I'm thinking that trying to watch these guys make sausage is a waste of time. Turning on the TV or going to the track to see good racing will be satisfying enough. Here's hopin'.

[Scotty G.]

A possible 2012 engine breakdown-

CHEVY- Penske, Foyt, Andretti, Panther, Robby Gordon, Rick Hendrick and/or Tony Stewart Racing

LOTUS- KV, Newman-Haas, F (even though that guy is long gone) AZZT, Rahal/Letterman, HVM

HONDA- Ganassi, Dreyer & Reinbold, Fisher, DeFerren/Dragon, Walker, Coyne, Conquest



I think Ganassi stays with Honda. I think that Andretti could go with Chevy, depending on what Danica Patrick does (her funding is key). Gil is a Honda guy. Teams like Walker, Coyne and Conquest could be used by Honda to put their Japanese "flavor of the month" drivers in cars. Fisher has gotten a lot of help from Honda since she started her team and won't leave them.

I also think there will be at least one more aero kit company come in, that has nothing to do with any of the 3 engine manufacturers.

[NickFalzone]

A possible 2012 engine breakdown-

CHEVY- Penske, Foyt, Andretti, Panther, Robby Gordon, Rick Hendrick and/or Tony Stewart Racing

LOTUS- KV, Newman-Haas, F (even though that guy is long gone) AZZT, Rahal/Letterman, HVM

HONDA- Ganassi, Dreyer & Reinbold, Fisher, DeFerren/Dragon, Walker, Coyne, Conquest



I think Ganassi stays with Honda. I think that Andretti could go with Chevy, depending on what Danica Patrick does (her funding is key). Gil is a Honda guy. Teams like Walker, Coyne and Conquest could be used by Honda to put their Japanese "flavor of the month" drivers in cars. Fisher has gotten a lot of help from Honda since she started her team and won't leave them.

I also think there will be at least one more aero kit company come in, that has nothing to do with any of the 3 engine manufacturers.

You realize that if you said this a year ago, or even 2 weeks ago, no one would believe you? 3 engine manufacturers, and 3 (possibly 4) aero kits, along with an entirely new "safety cell"/chassy by Dallara, all coming in the 2012 season. I still find it hard to believe, but listening to tonight's Trackside radio show that had a number of interviews including from Lotus, Penske, Dallara, and Chevy, everyone sounded pleased with how things are going, and confident in the 2012 start date. This is a fresh new start for the series imo.

[call_me_andrew]

I can't imagine Lotus building their own engine. I don't think they even make their own engines for their street cars.

And I think Andretti will stay with Honda.

[F1boat]

Really awesome news!

[V12]

Great news, my only slight worry is if Chevy and Lotus are working on both aero kits (which will name the chassis) and engines, it might be a bit awkward if say we end up with a "Chevrolet-Honda" car being run by someone, etc. I know it's just a superficial worry, but it might end up like the BMW Sauber-Ferrari mess in F1. (We might have had a Honda-Mercedes too if Bernie had got his way (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/73807))


Of course in practice all Chevrolet aero runners will likely use the engines too, but it would be good to see a bit of mixing like we had in the CART days with Reynards and Lolas both using all sorts of engines.

However it's still all huge progress from the pure spec crap we've had to put up with so all credit to IC for not only recognising this as a flaw (since way too many series these days see identical equipment as a positive thing and a selling point) but also acting on it :up:

[Lousada]

Great news, my only slight worry is if Chevy and Lotus are working on both aero kits (which will name the chassis) and engines, it might be a bit awkward if say we end up with a "Chevrolet-Honda" car being run by someone, etc. I know it's just a superficial worry, but it might end up like the BMW Sauber-Ferrari mess in F1. (We might have had a Honda-Mercedes too if Bernie had got his way (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/73807))


Of course in practice all Chevrolet aero runners will likely use the engines too, but it would be good to see a bit of mixing like we had in the CART days with Reynards and Lolas both using all sorts of engines.

However it's still all huge progress from the pure spec crap we've had to put up with so all credit to IC for not only recognising this as a flaw (since way too many series these days see identical equipment as a positive thing and a selling point) but also acting on it :up:

Tony Cotman already said that engine manufacturers that produce aerokits, can veto their kits on other engine manufacturers. So we won't see Chevy-Honda or Honda-Chevy (unless the factories allow it of course). Lotus doesn't appear so picky since they are already sponsoring a Honda.

[DBell]

DBell, you know just as much as anyone here, and we are all being fed mystery meat.

I'm thinking that trying to watch these guys make sausage is a waste of time. Turning on the TV or going to the track to see good racing will be satisfying enough. Here's hopin'.

I did think of one alternative to Lotus using Cosworth as the engine builder. It's no secrete in F1 that Lotus is rumored to be buying into the Renault factory team and becoming Lotus-Renault. I'm talking about the real Lotus group, not the team that called themselves Lotus this year in F1. As soon as the name issue with the currant Lotus named team is resolved, then this is what the F1 press says is going to happen. Renault is positioning themselves to be an engine supplier and getting out of owning their own team in F1.

With all this in mind, it may be possible that Lotus will use a Renault sourced engine for their IndyCar program. It's an out there theory, I admit, but that may be the reason for why nothing was said about who's going to build the engine. All that said, I'd still put my money on Cosworth if I had to.

I agree on the racing. It's the first time in years that I've felt any kind of excitement and anticipation about the future of IndyCar. Bummer we'll have to slog through with the old spec through 2011
, but at least there seems to be a future for IndyCar based on real things happening, not a lot of wishes and hope.

[Steve-o]

The press release from indycar, if you care to read it.

http://www.fanviewpoint.com/2010/11/lotus-joins-indycar.html

[maximilian]

I guess that means we won't be seeing any FIAT group entry then after all...

[nigelred5]

I did think of one alternative to Lotus using Cosworth as the engine builder. It's no secrete in F1 that Lotus is rumored to be buying into the Renault factory team and becoming Lotus-Renault. I'm talking about the real Lotus group, not the team that called themselves Lotus this year in F1. As soon as the name issue with the currant Lotus named team is resolved, then this is what the F1 press says is going to happen. Renault is positioning themselves to be an engine supplier and getting out of owning their own team in F1.

With all this in mind, it may be possible that Lotus will use a Renault sourced engine for their IndyCar program. It's an out there theory, I admit, but that may be the reason for why nothing was said about who's going to build the engine. All that said, I'd still put my money on Cosworth if I had to.

I agree on the racing. It's the first time in years that I've felt any kind of excitement and anticipation about the future of IndyCar. Bummer we'll have to slog through with the old spec through 2011
, but at least there seems to be a future for IndyCar based on real things happening, not a lot of wishes and hope.


I'd thought about that as well. Is Mechachrome still doing the F1 engines? Remember the Indy lights engined are/were based on the Infinity(Nissan) indycar engine which is part owned by Renault, so there is precidence for that consortium's invlovement as a supplier to Indycars.

[DBell]

I'd thought about that as well. Is Mechachrome still doing the F1 engines? Remember the Indy lights engined are/were based on the Infinity(Nissan) indycar engine which is part owned by Renault, so there is precidence for that consortium's invlovement as a supplier to Indycars.

Renault does have a history with high horsepower turbo V6 engines. :)

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/212/489488485_4b20e40738.jpg

I think Mechachrome is still around, but didn't Flavio Briatore buy them at some point? I seem to remember something like that, but I'm not sure.

[Scotty G.]

And I think Andretti will stay with Honda.

I see plenty of people speculating that, and I don't really understand why. Yes, I know the background a history. But that's over with.

If Miss Patrick has any sort of future in Indy Cars beyond 2011, its likely going to be with Andretti. Mike needs her for her funding. And with her continuing on in NASCAR (most likely), that will be in a Chevy.

Plus, with Andretti becoming more-and-more a "American team" (RHR, Marco, Conor Daly and Sage Karem could all be in the mix in the next few years there), the obvious tie with Chevy is easy to see coming.

[V12]

Renault does have a history with high horsepower turbo V6 engines. :)

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/212/489488485_4b20e40738.jpg

I think Mechachrome is still around, but didn't Flavio Briatore buy them at some point? I seem to remember something like that, but I'm not sure.

I don't think he bought into Mecachrome itself, but a company he setup (Supertec) bought the rights to distribute and badge the Mecachrome F1 engines (based on 1997 Renaults) from 1999 until Renault themselves re-entered the sport in 2001.

Mecachrome are still around are responsible for the Renault-badged GP2 engines. Think they did a short-lived LMP2 engine based on it as well.

[garyshell]

We spoke, he listened:


"Last March, one thing we learned really quick was that the fans wanted to see the 'spec' series go away," said Bernhard, referring to the time when he took the reins of the series from its former boss Tony George. "That was the number one thing they said."

http://www.racer.com/randy-bernard-lauds-the-end-of-indycars-spec-era/article/191211/?DCMP=EMC-RACER_DAILY

Gary

[Enjun Pullr]

Absent of any reference during the announcement, Robin Miller finally dragged the "C" word out of Danny Bahar in an interview afterward. If you are the type to carefully weigh people's words, you didn't hear anyone yet say that Cosworth is building an IndyCar engine with Lotus.

That may well happen in the end, but the "silent partner" treatment strikes me as a puzzle. Or a reluctance to discuss a deal not yet finalized.

Which makes me wonder what TRD thinks about all of this. And a lot of others.

[nigelred5]

hmmm, Toyota has had it as bad as some others due to their recall issues, however the auto market is slowly improving. I suppose the question with Toyota will be how happy are they with their involvement in NASCAR. I'm curious to see how strict Indycar would be with the November 16 deadline if they were approached with another engine for 2012.

[nigelred5]

Purely speculation on my part, but I wonder how much the new interest in supplying Indycar engines has to do with the whole Team Lotus/Group Lotus/Proton/Renault saga in F1.?

[Enjun Pullr]

The Lotus/ Proton mystery meat doesn't look to appealing, does it.

The thinking about TRD is that all of Group Lotus' street cars are Toyota powered as far as I know. That technical partnership would seem just as capable as the one with Cosworth.

Lotus beat the deadline, but now the work begins. Bahar didn't make it very clear who's job that is, and perhaps it has not yet been assigned.

[Hoop-98]

The Lotus/ Proton mystery meat doesn't look to appealing, does it.

The thinking about TRD is that all of Group Lotus' street cars are Toyota powered as far as I know. That technical partnership would seem just as capable as the one with Cosworth.

Lotus beat the deadline, but now the work begins. Bahar didn't make it very clear who's job that is, and perhaps it has not yet been assigned.

I'd wager thats all done (a lil birdie). They will not "Badge" but as everyone does now, they will use a contractor, Cause its Worth it to them.


rh

[Enjun Pullr]

Cheers for that, the "cheesecloth covert operation" scenario looked a little strange.

If it quacks like a Duck, it's a Duckworth?

I had a chance to play nurse while the doctors operated on a cranky Olsbergs Duratec turbo. Awesome little motors, except for the one that broke. :eek:

[Hoop-98]

Cheers for that, the "cheesecloth covert operation" scenario looked a little strange.

If it quacks like a Duck, it's a Duckworth?

I had a chance to play nurse while the doctors operated on a cranky Olsbergs Duratec turbo. Awesome little motors, except for the one that broke. :eek:

F1 engines, NASCAR engines, and 2012 Indycar engines do not operate at the outer limits of durability.

others do...

[Enjun Pullr]

It was frustrating, the Swedish mystery answer was that a cam follower had broken...but I am under the impression that they just use direct tappets.

The car had been stuffed into an embankment, and the motor still ran. No vitamins in the intake plenum, and they didn't pull the oil tank or clean the cooler. Not sure what the real story was.

[champcarray]

This is awesome news. I first began rooting for Lotus-Cosworth as a kid, reading about Emerson Fittipaldi and the 72 in Road & Track. I can't wait to see 'em back.

[Jag_Warrior]

Purely speculation on my part, but I wonder how much the new interest in supplying Indycar engines has to do with the whole Team Lotus/Group Lotus/Proton/Renault saga in F1.?

Seemingly, like everything involving the Lotus name these days, this is rather convoluted too. From various reports that I've read, Group Lotus is attempting to buy Renault's remaining 25% interest in the F1 team - Renault will have cashed out totally. If successful, the team will then likely be renamed "Lotus" (but could not be called "Team Lotus" ahead of a deal with the rights holder). Proton/Group Lotus is not buying, and Renault is not selling, the engine supply business, which is apparently separate from the F1 team. At that stage, the former Renault F1/newly branded Lotus F1 team could begin using Mercedes, Ferrari or Cosworth engines if they wanted to... though I doubt they'd want to. Ghosn is a notorious "dollars & sense" guy, so I doubt that he's looking to expand into another racing market, when he's been cutting back in every other racing market.

But even though Cosworth wasn't mentioned by name, my guess is the Lotus Indy car engine will be built by Cosworth - and I seriously doubt Renault will have anything to do with it. Cosworth has a contract to massage sourced Toyota engines for certain Lotus road cars, and one can assume that is the basis for the relationship with Kalkhoven's team now. When Cosworth Engineering and Cosworth Racing were under the same banner, many/most of Cosworth Engineering's projects were conducted under the radar - and the same has been true of Lotus. One of the best "Lotus cars" of all time was the... Toyota MR2 1st generation. So maybe they're going to keep this on the down low/quiet tip until they can work out how Lotus can maximize the exposure? Or maybe they need a plan to come up with a plan... dunno.

The one guy I knew at the Cosworth Torrance, CA facility was "made redundant" about two years ago. So I really have no idea what they're working on anymore. But I found a dollar in the parking lot yesterday. I'll use it to bet that Cosworth will be the one building the "Lotus" engine.

[nigelred5]

Every report ive read so far on the Group Lotus buyout of the Renault F1 team has said fairly clearly it is to be renamed Lotus Renault and continue using Renault power. Too bad we can't get a few ciggy's back.

http://autooboz.omega.kz/foto/lotus/lotus_renault_97t(1985).jpg

[maximilian]

http://autooboz.omega.kz/foto/lotus/lotus_renault_97t%281985%29.jpg
Just a nitpick, but the photo says "mansell", when it's actually Elio de Angelis' (RIP!) car.

[Anubis]

Can't find a link at the moment, but there was a press release a few days ago saying they (the Lotus Racing Lotus) will be running that livery again next year, sans JPS sponsorship, obviously. Will be very confusing given they might not actually be called Lotus by then, and the other Lotus will be on the grid in some capacity.

[Dr. Krogshöj]

Can't find a link at the moment, but there was a press release a few days ago saying they (the Lotus Racing Lotus) will be running that livery again next year, sans JPS sponsorship, obviously. Will be very confusing given they might not actually be called Lotus by then, and the other Lotus will be on the grid in some capacity.

I think they will only use that if they win the legal battle to be Team Lotus. If not, I expect them to run a red and white livery to match the likely Team Air Asia / Tune Racing branding. Right now, I think both sides are waiting for the English High Court ruling.

[Copse]

Is Mechachrome still doing the F1 engines?

I'm not quite sure about who owns who between Renault, Renault Sport, Renault F1 and Mechachrome, but what I do know is that they were mentioned and thanked in the Renault press release at the conclusion of the F1 season. (http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=42585). The wording seems to indicate that they are involved, but still separate from 'Viry-Chatillon', which is the Renault F1 Engine factory.

[nigelred5]

Just a nitpick, but the photo says "mansell", when it's actually Elio de Angelis' (RIP!) car.

naaa, the second pic wouldn't link. Click on it and that one is actually Mansell's car. ;)

[Mad_Hatter]

Surely there's no way Lotus lets Justin Wilson race anything without a Lotus badge on it come 2012 right? Does the same go for Dan Wheldon?

[Enjun Pullr]

Justin Wilson re-signed with Dreyer and Reinbold last week. If everything with the 2012 cars proceeds as planned, aero kit and engine deals will likely have to be secured before the 2011 season ends. Wheldon might be driving pickup trucks.

Owners are going to cut the best deal they can, and there isn't any reason to expect driver affiliation to have an effect. If Mutoh is still getting Honda bucks to race in 2012, he would be the exception.

Dreyer and Reinbold's six dealerships are not connected to any of the three prospective engine manufacturers, so they will choose the best deal they can get.

Nigel, thanks for posting the JPS photo. I wasn't much of an F1 and during that era, and it led me to some searches. Any interview I found with Ayrton Senna was riveting...what a fine man he was. Hopefully the movie coming out will carry his spirit.