Not so "Factory" teams

[MDS]

One of the big components of the new engine formula is that there won't be any exclusive agreements with teams and engine manufactures, so if you get to to Indy and it turns out that the Chevy is faster than the Honda or Lotus you could switch, or even have different cars at the same team running different engine packages.

From Racer.com

Cotman confirmed that "factory" teams will be specifically prohibited by the 2012 rules, although he admitted tha specific issues like testing opportunities will require some fine-tuning by the league."I think we need to get a little deeper into it when we're talking about testing," Cotman said. "But I think I'll just reiterate what Roger said. Obviously, there's heritage here with Ilmor, Chevy and Penske. Any other team who runs a Chevrolet will have exactly the same specification that Penske will have. When we get into a test program between IndyCar and Ilmor, we plan on having a car on track mid next year, anyway, and that will develop. Hopefully, we can develop a pattern which we can put together with a test program."I don't really think that's a great idea because it stops money from flowing to the teams, and it might even stymie driver development.

Money is already flowing to the teams. Honda is paying for at least Hedki's seat and probably contributing some to Takuma's ride. Honda of Canda paid for PT's Canadian ride the last two years. These are good things and as a sport I don't think we want them to stop.

Theoretically banning exclusive deals could stymie driver development deals. Lets say Chevy decided it wanted to start an open wheel driver development program. Why put the time and money into a guy if his team couldn't sign an exclusive deal and ended up switching to other engine for the 500?

There are already at least two de-facto factory teams. Penske is going to be the house team for Chevy and KV is going to be the house team for Lotus. Lotus will be making aero kits and any competitive aero kit is going to require a good amount of on track testing, not to mention wind tunnel time. Since lotus is sponsoring two cars (and they should be allowed to) KV will be using the Lotus body kit (And probably engine) regardless of an exclusive deal, it would make sense that if Lotus is paying a team's track time it should go to the one that is loyal to them.

Now as I understand it the GM and or Honda spec engines will be available for everyone who wants one. It will be the same random process used now and I'm okay with that, but trying to ban manufactures from supporting teams and drivers? Why? Factory teams are part of the intrigue of the sport.

[Enjun Pullr]

You are advocating an arms race. If the money is flowing to support one, everybody wins. If not, it discourages competition between only the entities most willing to invest, and eventually leads to one winner.

In 2006, that left only the winner in the game.

The fact that there will be two competing engines is change enough. Even though both are V6, there are a multitude of variables introduced that will positively affect the competition.

Assuming that Lotus/Cosworth will appear is a big leap of faith. KK isn't footing the bill, and there is no indication that Lotus' current investment will be increasing exponentially.

[Lousada]

One of the big components of the new engine formula is that there won't be any exclusive agreements with teams and engine manufactures, so if you get to to Indy and it turns out that the Chevy is faster than the Honda or Lotus you could switch, or even have different cars at the same team running different engine packages.


I don't follow your logic completely. Chevy definately signed an exclusive deal with Penske. You really think Chevy will allow Penske to drive with Hondas?? Chevy is dropping some money in order to keep Penske on Chevys. In my opinion all top teams will be signed by the engine manufacturers. The little teams will be trapped in full season leases so they can't switch mid-season.

[MDS]

Assuming that Lotus/Cosworth will appear is a big leap of faith. KK isn't footing the bill, and there is no indication that Lotus' current investment will be increasing exponentially.


Actually there is indication that Lotus is going to be increasing its involvement with KV racing. Vasser told Marshall Pruitt

“The Lotus component will grow each year—it’s very incentive-based—and it also includes a lot of additional technical support which will help us with a lot of performance-based stuff that will have a big impact next year. But it isn’t a huge dollar deal that would allow us to go out and do whatever we want in 2011—to hire whoever we wanted. http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/indycar-kv-closing-in-on-new-lotus-deal/

And Lotus was the first company to announce the are making their own Aero kit.

http://www.racer.com/lotus-plans-indycar-aero-kit/article/175809/

So going from a $2-$3 million sponsor to providing technical assistance and then building an Aero kit sounds like exponential increase to me.

[Enjun Pullr]

"providing technical assistance" is most of what Lotus contributed to KV in 2010. Building aero kits, if it happens, does not give Lotus a factory team...the kits have to be available to anyone who wants them.

Same for the engines...Penske will have no exclusivity, nor will anyone else. Regulating the playing field is the only way the arms races of the past can be avoided, and that is exactly how IndyCar is going to manage the competition.

How you can read Vasser's statement and previous ones from Cosworth and assume that there will be a Lotus/Cosworth engine is fantasy.

[MDS]

Being a factory team isn't about getting any trick or R&D parts before the rest of the field a huge component is testing, the other is sponsorship. Even keeping all the engines randomized and the aero kits spec the won't take away the testing advantages

The big question is will Chevy, or GM Goodwrench Service, or Honda of Canada, Honda Generators, be able to sponsor one a car if they want to? Allowing a primary sponsorship would violate at least the spirit of the no exclusive agreement ban.

All of the Aero kits are going to have be track tested at some point, if not multiple points, during during their development. If kit or engine manufacture wants to road test their kit how will they go about it? Will they have to randomly draw for a team, so you have an equal chance of getting Penske or Ganassi as you do Coyne or Sarah Fisher racing? I don't think that's a wise way to make decisions.

The other question is how will testing work? Should Lotus, who is paying for space on the KV cars, be forced to test their aero kit with DR&R for the sake of parity? I don't think that's the ICS' plans. Would Honda be forced to pay Penske for an endurance test at the speedway? I hope not.

Given a level field testing will be where advantages are won or lost. Lets say two equal teams are both using the same Aero Kit. Team A is an intergal part of the testing process, their feedback helped shaped the kit's form and Team B buys the same areo package the first day it becomes available to the public. Team A has a massive advantage over Team B because Team A has already tested the package's components and has a good idea of how it will handle before the first day of preseason testing. Not only that the kit's manufacture paid for two, two day testing sessions before the official start of the year's testing.

In open development leagues preseason testing is where championships are won or lost. Penske is now poised to be a test team for GM's engine and aero kit program. That means they're going to get three to five off season tests between the end of the season and the start of preseason testing (Or whatever date the Kit and the engine will have to be fixed by.) that other teams won't have. Sure' they'll have the same components and engine that Penske will have, maybe even the data too, but their drivers won't have the seat time; their engineers won't have the development time, in some cases they'll have been laid off over the winter; and Penske will have an advantage over every other team running the same configuration. The question is will the league step in and stop that.

[V12]

I just hope the rulemakers realise that regardless of how open or how regulated the competition is, your Penskes and Ganassis of this world will rise to the top, their dominance of the spec Dallara-Honda era should be evidence enough of that. I'm all for regulating things if the trade-off is avoiding a situation like in 2006 where Chevrolet, Toyota and G-Force all left the scene leaving a spec-series, I just hope they are sensible and not naive enough to realise that some teams will get manufacturer backing in terms of testing and development.

I think if they mandate that each manufacturer (of both aero and engines) make equal equipment to all their teams and leave it at that (no awkward testing regs) then that should be good.

[Enjun Pullr]

If you go back and read quotes from Tony Cotman and Brian Barnhart from the days immediately following the ICONIC announcement, the aero kit question was already being discussed. At the time, it was indicated that no teams could track test aero kits before purchasing them.

Dallara has been down this road before. I would expect that their engineering staff would conduct initial track testing with both engine installations, in company with the respective engineering staffs. Either unaffiliated test drivers or a rotating choice of current drivers could be employed.

There is no benefit to the Series of factory teams in the present environment. As you pointed out, Honda already supports two drivers: that doesn't give them an advantage in testing or equipment. If that equality is not maintained, the rich get richer and the poor get throttled.

[MDS]

If you go back and read quotes from Tony Cotman and Brian Barnhart from the days immediately following the ICONIC announcement, the aero kit question was already being discussed. At the time, it was indicated that no teams could track test aero kits before purchasing them.

Manufacture tests are good for the sport, they keep engineers employed year round, they give drivers more seat time and give manufactures' the data they want. Before his rookie season in 1999 Juan Pablo Montoya had 15 days in the car before the first race at Homestead. This year Simona de Silvestro had four days, Takuma Sato had two. JPM had so many days in the car because Honda paid for a couple of days of testing, Reynard paid for testing and Firestone paid for testing. Take that away and it hurts teams and drivers. I can't imagine JPM would have won the championship his rookie year without the lengthy off-season testing.

The reason being a Honda driver in the series now gets you no benefits is because Honda hasn't conducted a test in four/five years because the engine has been de-tuned and development frozen. If in the future Honda wants to use Hedki and Takuma to do their V6's 500 mile test at the speedway I think they should be allowed to do that.

Before the 2012 starts all the aero kit compents and all the engines are going to have to be road tested. You can't do it all on the dyno, wind tunnel and shaker rig. You need race cars in race trim running near each other and if you want to test your kit in race trim you need a race team to do it. Those teams have to come from somewhere, and when you're paying the bill for the test I think you should be able to choose who you hire.

[Enjun Pullr]

And I expect that when the Series regulations are presented they will exclude the ability of teams to conduct private testing beyond an equal and specific number of miles, as it is presently being done.

Any other method initiates an arms race and defeats the cost control initiatives deemed essential by the team owners and the Series.

[nigelred5]

Without testing, the first races will likely be carnage. It's no wonder so many drivers new to the series go through so much euipment. What other profession in the world are you expected to step into the job with essentially zero experience, virtually no practice and required to perform as such a high level? Change how and when teams are able to practice and conduct a few more league sponsored practice/testing days before and during the season at tracks that want an event but can't sanction a race and purse.

[MDS]

They're starting to back away from the no exclusive contracts language.

And just to clarify, teams won't be allowed to run a two-car team with one using Honda, one running a Chevy?
Correct. If you're a Chevrolet team, you're a Chevrolet team. Also, let's clarify, Roger Penske was instrumental in bringing Chevrolet back to the series and so it's only natural that he will run Chevy engines. If somebody else brings an engine manufacturer to the series, then they will be assigned with that manufacturer. So it's good for all – good for the teams, good for the series, good for the fans. And if that's something that works between the fans and manufacturers, then good, let's go ahead.
The only caveat to that is that the same specification engine must be available to all other teams at all times. We cannot afford to go to the Speedway and see Penske or somebody else use the same engine to go 3mph faster than another Chevy runner. We need to learn from the mistakes of the past. We've all been through this stuff and we don't revisit the political problems that were caused, because what caused issues in the past would cause issues again, we can be sure of that.
Chevy has said it might be interested in building an aero kit. That, too, would have to be made available to other teams, right?
Yeah, absolutely. The rules we've laid down already will apply. Having said that, although I haven't finalized this yet in writing, I don't think Chevy would be happy to see its aero kit on a Honda-engined car. So I think the process will have to include that, yes, you must be able to supply 30-40 percent of the field with your aero kit, but engine manufacturers must be allowed to retain veto power over their aero kits to a certain extent. Chevy couldn't stop a team from having a GE kit or a Boeing kit, but they need to be able to prevent teams from having a competing engine manufacturer's aero kit. That wouldn't do anyone – including the public – any good, because you can't have a Chevrolet-Honda. http://www.racer.com/exclusive-tony-cotman-on-the-new-chevrolet-indycar-engine/article/190737/#

I think what's been said publicly and what has been said to the teams and manufactures are different things. Chevy and Lotus will have veto power over who can use their aero kit. Also it doesn't sound like you'll be able to switch back and forth between engine suppliers so there is going to be some level of exclusivity going on.

[nigelred5]

If there are two suppliers, each must support the field with IDENTICAL engines and aero. my chevy must be exactly the same as your Chevy. IIRC in hte competetive days, there was always a minimum and maximum number of teams any supplier had to/ could supply.

Choose wisely young grasshopper.....

[Enjun Pullr]

Here you go MDS, this carries a little more substance than my viewpoint: sorry, I didn't realize it had already been published on Friday.

http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/indycar-2012-rules-to-limit-factory-teams/

[MDS]

And I expect that when the Series regulations are presented they will exclude the ability of teams to conduct private testing beyond an equal and specific number of miles, as it is presently being done.

Penske and Ganassi were testing for Firestone Tuesday at Las Vegas Motor Speedway. Those miles were above and beyond their testing allotment for 2011.

Also, and this is kind of off topic a bit, but Penske, Ganassi and Andretti all have not-so-secret straight line testing facilities and KV Racing is supposedly looking to establish their own straight line run as the Lotus deal gets bigger.

There's also been rumors for years that the well funded teams will occasionally rent out general aviation airports in remote areas to do road course tests. Shuttered military bases have reportedly also been used for off the book tests.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Assuming that Lotus/Cosworth will appear is a big leap of faith. KK isn't footing the bill, and there is no indication that Lotus' current investment will be increasing exponentially.

You say that...but here is what National Speed Sport news is reporting:http://www.nationalspeedsportnews.com/uncategorized/lotus-to-supply-indycar-engines/

[Enjun Pullr]

Such fine gentlemen to correct my posts, I thank you both.

MDS, in this time zone it's still 2010. And both Penske Racing and Ganassi Racing were denied the opportunity to complete their test mileage allotment when they arrived at Miami-Homestead before the finale, only to find that the facility could not be used.

And Mark, kudos to you for seeing through the public statements made by Jimmy Vassar and Kevin Kalkhoven. That makes me a fool for closely examining their claims, and for putting much stock in them.

So it now appears that Lotus will make a much greater investment in their IndyCar program than there was any evidence to suggest. Kudos to you both for the insight you demonstrated in predicting these developments.

[V12]

They're starting to back away from the no exclusive contracts language.
http://www.racer.com/exclusive-tony-cotman-on-the-new-chevrolet-indycar-engine/article/190737/#

I think what's been said publicly and what has been said to the teams and manufactures are different things. Chevy and Lotus will have veto power over who can use their aero kit. Also it doesn't sound like you'll be able to switch back and forth between engine suppliers so there is going to be some level of exclusivity going on.

I missed this announcement and it was brought to my attention on another thread. As someone who was annoyed by for example the "BMW Sauber-Ferrari" mess in F1 this year, removing the possibility of a Chevy-Honda or Honda-Chevy can only be a good thing.

I guess the real motivation for this rule is for marketing reasons (e.g. if Chevy and Honda run ads saying "We won the Indy 500" it might get a bit messy), but the fact it makes it neater for the fans too is a nice bonus.

[anthonyvop]

It can open up a big can of worms.

Is there a rule in place to prevent a team from using the Lotus aero-package but run a Chevy or Honda?

Can a team combine aero-packages? Say a Lotus nose with another constructor's diffuser?

If it is up to me allow all the mix and matching.

[Enjun Pullr]

The second and third questions were answered by Cotman in July, so I'd assume the answers are still "No". And the nose will be spec Dallara, with selective front wings. The undertray will also be spec Dallara, so presumably there will be no permissable diffuser alterations.

I don't know much about licensing agreements, but isn't that the answer to your first question? KVR began the 2010 season with Cosworth branding on their Lotus Dallara. Until Honda said "No".

Now, if Honda wants to take a check to permit the rebranding, fine. But you would assume that they hold the rights to make the choice, and chose to protect their brand licensing. That's not a socialist corruption of the free enterprise system, that's trade regulation.

So IndyCar establishes the rules based on input from the engine manufacturers, and the game is on. Engine builder can preserve his branding, or if the provision is in place, negotiate a shared licensing agreement.

If Tanner Foust was wearing a fat Rolex while standing on the podium to accept a contingency award from another watch company, you'd say "No" too.

[MDS]

Cavin had this to say

IndyCar rules are likely to prohibit direct funding of the teams by the manufacturers, but incentives figure to be plentiful, including free aero kits, more prominence in the promotional activity required of the manufacturer, perhaps even help landing sponsors.

I didn't think of that. Although the rules aren't set yet they've only established a maximum price the aero kit could go for, and one wonders if the IICS is going to establish a minimum as well.

[Enjun Pullr]

IF that's the way it works, nobody loses. The manufacturer would need to be regulated so that Coyne isn't forced to pay for the kit that Penske gets for free though, right?

The satellite sponsor deal was explained by a guy who had skin in the game. Honda had AGR. Honda did business with XM for their consumer cars.

So Honda tells XM they have to sponsor AGR. Done.

The scope of b2b deals is beyond my comprehension, but that one seemed pretty clear.

As Cavin suggested, similar side deals could be hatching as a result of the increased participation. Penske confirmed that Briscoe will run the third car on the same day the GM deal was announced.

Maybe an Onstar car appears next to a Verizon car and the service contract between them gets renewed?

[Hoop-98]

If someone perceives it is worth to invest in a racing series there is no way to totally limit participation by suppliers.

In 1998 we received for my son about 50,000 dollars in chassis, wheels, engines, bodies, clutches, seats, bearings, titanium axles, for his dirt oval kart.

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v2072/93/90/518294719/n518294719_1119416_8014.jpg

That's a 12 year old racing a go-kart.

It is part of racing and always people will support winners.

rh

[Enjun Pullr]

Now you've gone and outed yourself...

You are the evil Roger Penske of Texas go-kart racing!

[Hoop-98]

Now you've gone and outed yourself...

You are the evil Roger Penske of Texas go-kart racing!

My Dad started off as the "Nothing Special" at Playland Park in the late 40s, I started Roundy-Round after years of drags in 79.

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v2072/93/90/518294719/n518294719_1119188_671.jpg

Nothing Special5 winning the WKA Pennsylvania Dirt Karting Association State race in 99

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v2072/93/90/518294719/n518294719_1119417_8253.jpg

James got his Eng. Degree form UT in 2007, in his final year of Law at NYU. He will be able to afford to keep the Hooper racing tradition alive I hope.

rh

[Enjun Pullr]

Pretty cool...I hope it didn't have a hood tach :eek:

Looks better than the new Camaro, too. But keeping on topic, it's "not so factory"!

Karts I could never get into, but I know a few lawyers.....