Recce in WRC rally

[garais22]

Can some one tell me, how many times WRC drivers can do recce?
Two or three times?

Thanks

[rallyfiend]

It's a 2 pass recce system.

[AP-Racing]

Can some one tell me, how many times WRC drivers can do recce?
Two or three times?

Thanks

three times

[garais22]

Then 2 or 3 times? :D

[Juha_Koo]

It's two times, no doubt about it.

[Pinto]

yes two pass

[Steve Boyd]

2010 FIA World Rally Championship Sporting Regulations
Article 25.4.3 Number of passages
Each crew is limited to two passages on each special stage (special stages run twice are considered to be one special stage). . . .

[garais22]

Thank`s a lot :)

[bowler]

It is two now.

It has gone from unlimited recce over any period, to three passes on scheduled days, to the current system of two passes in a day and a half.

This is the factor which dictates the layout of rallies, as the only way to achieve non competitive coverage (twice) of the whole 3 day rally in a day and a half is repeated use of stages.

This is a cost control and damage control measure and has been effective in that respect.

[Barreis]

80km/h max. speed..

[MJW]

80km/h max. speed..sometimes worth watchhing though,especially if its snowy / icy in Wales, ask Loeb

[Juha_Koo]

80km/h max. speed..

Not always, organizers can limit the speed by putting their own speed limit signs to the stages for the recce. These places are ofcourse also marked in the road book.

For example in Finland while I was driving recce (spectator one, though :p ) I saw both 30 and 60 kph limit signs, mostly in places where there's lot's of houses etc. near the stage.

[N.O.T]

nice subject....

Do local organisers sometimes allow local crews to "bend" this limit ?? For example here in Greece almost all local crews who know the stages of WRC and ERC events do illegal recce...is the situation the same in Other countries ??

I am aware of the Campos, panizzi, delecour, puras, paasonen incidents but here in greece there is a tradition since there is no inspection of the special stages and some of our local boys even recce them in rally cars....is it the same in your countries as well ?

[muratgunarslan]

already, there is no enough time to pass a stage for third time. recce time is only for two times pass.

[bowler]

the average speed can be adjusted by the organiser in some circumstances, generally relating to local limits.

N.O.T.
Any competitor entered in a WRC event is not allowed to do recce of the stages and must not drive on them for a period of time prior to the rally. I think it is 6 months, but am not 100% sure. If they are caught they are fined and excluded. I am sorry to hear that your organisers cannot control this , and that your competitors think it is OK to do it.

[bluuford]

Well, there is one exception. If you live close to the road used as a special stage, then you are allowed to drive there (to get home or visit your neighbors, go shopping or whatever reason you need to use those roads to live your normal life).

Illegal recce is actually very hard to control. If the driver sits on the back seat in random car with just a "normal tourist" behind the steering wheel? After all it comes to trust and the fact that the one you cheat is you.

[igi]

Does anybody know if crews record stages on video to memorize them? I guess this is even harder to control as anybody can record them.

[DonJippo]

Does anybody know if crews record stages on video to memorize them?

Yes they do, don't know if all but many do.

[cali]

Yes they do, don't know if all but many do.

Ok, that brings the question if this video is legal or not? Is it allowed to record your recce or not?

In my mind recording the stages during recce gives you huge advantage.

[MJW]

Ok, that brings the question if this video is legal or not? Is it allowed to record your recce or not?

In my mind recording the stages during recce gives you huge advantage.
From what I have seen on recce all top crews record the stage on video. In car systems are not that expensive these days, and lets face it if you have the budget to enter a WRC rally, or even recce only budget, video recording is a small additional cost. Cutting down on a video camera is giving you as much a disadvantage as running 3 tyres. Having said that I only have seen P1 and P2 drivers recce, normally they recce at a different time to the other drivers.

[Iskald]

nice subject....

Do local organisers sometimes allow local crews to "bend" this limit ?? For example here in Greece almost all local crews who know the stages of WRC and ERC events do illegal recce...is the situation the same in Other countries ??

I am aware of the Campos, panizzi, delecour, puras, paasonen incidents but here in greece there is a tradition since there is no inspection of the special stages and some of our local boys even recce them in rally cars....is it the same in your countries as well ?

A very stupid and bad "tradition", in my opinion. In my 30 years as a competitor (codriver) I have never once been asked by a driver to take part in illegal recce. If I had gotten that question I just would have dropped the guy and found another driver.

The "risk" of actually doing illegal recce is of course bigger in WRC events than in national rallies. Entering a WRC event is in itself a rather costly business, and then end up being excluded from an event before the start is a great waste of money - as well as being extremely difficult to explain and shameful towards sponsors and anyone else supporting you.

In my country (Norway) illegal recce with actual rally cars would surely not only lead to exclusion from an event, but also result in loss of driver/codrivers licence for a substantial time period. With this risk in mind, I can`t recall any drivers who has "dared" to do that during the years I have been active.

[cali]

From what I have seen on recce all top crews record the stage on video. In car systems are not that expensive these days, and lets face it if you have the budget to enter a WRC rally, or even recce only budget, video recording is a small additional cost. Cutting down on a video camera is giving you as much a disadvantage as running 3 tyres. Having said that I only have seen P1 and P2 drivers recce, normally they recce at a different time to the other drivers.
Yes, I know this myself as well.
Just wanted to know if this is legal by rules or not. Problably it is. Then illegal recce does not make any sense, because you can study stages in front of TV.

[Viking]

With this risk in mind, I can`t recall any drivers who has "dared" to do that during the years I have been active.

Ehh, this years Numedalsrally.. Ok the circumstances were rather spesial :)

[StevoEvo]

Are Ford still using the S60 Volvo's for Recce? Seen about 10 parked outside their hotel last year
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i281/welshwille/volvorecce.jpg

They also used one as the 0 car.. Did Ford supply this one?
Rather hear the wail of the Bowler they used in 04 :D
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i281/welshwille/volvosafetycar.jpg

Citroen used Mitsubishi Evo's, is this still the case?
A pic of the one Loeb ditched a few years ago lol
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i281/welshwille/EVOreccecarloeb08.jpg

Any ideas what Mini will use? BMW X3's maybe or a clubman AWD!!

[MartijnS]

Yes & yes about the Volvo's and Evo's.

[macksrallye]

Here in Australia we generally use a 2 pass system. On local events with 3 or 4 stages used several times we recce in the morning & start the event at about 1pm. This means getting your notes spot on is really important & many people (in perth at least) don't use camera's. I personally wouldn't use as there is a very fine balance between have great notes & committing to them & relying on memory (which isn't always correct).

NOT, to answer your question, yes there are isolated case of people doing illegal recce but they are dealt with severly. We have a ban for the two months prior to the event on illegal recce.

[jonas_mcrae]

Ive seen non-factory drivers using all kinds of different cars for recce, of course those with budget tend to use evos and imprezas, but I remember Prokop trashing a rental Mitsubishi Outlander in rally mexico... its always cool to see what happens behind the scenes

[N.O.T]

NOT, to answer your question, yes there are isolated case of people doing illegal recce but they are dealt with severly. We have a ban for the two months prior to the event on illegal recce.

we have also severe punishments...some of them we even name them greek champions and best greek drivers at the end...we can be very harsh when we are pushed....

[N.O.T]

and to clarify things...for the greek championship we don't have a limit in recce they can do as many passes as they want (as long as they don't drive the stage backwards...but again even some do that also) but for the WRC and ERC rounds we do, but again in Greece none cares...

[Iskald]

Ehh, this years Numedalsrally.. Ok the circumstances were rather spesial :)
That had nothing to do with recce.

[Ctdprep]

reviving an old thread here, but can anyone explain what that light on the top center of the dash is for?

http://www.monsterworldrallyteam.com/sites/default/files/styles/large_scale/public/RECCE3.jpg

[noel157]

reviving an old thread here, but can anyone explain what that light on the top center of the dash is for?

http://www.monsterworldrallyteam.com/sites/default/files/styles/large_scale/public/RECCE3.jpg

Don't see a light Colin, the little box above the two vents?

[Coach 2]

I'm pretty sure it is the reading of the distance on the trippmeter (or whatever it's called in English).

[Ctdprep]

Don't see a light Colin, the little box above the two vents?

ya thats the one, its an LED cluster.. just wondering what it's for..

[bubbaontour]

[quote=" Any ideas what Mini will use? BMW X3's maybe or a clubman AWD!! [/QUOTE"]

I run MINIs recces and we unsuprisingly use mini countryman all4's.. why would we use a massive X3 when the road car that the rally car is built from is a 1.6 turbo 4wd???

[bubbaontour]

reviving an old thread here, but can anyone explain what that light on the top center of the dash is for?

http://www.monsterworldrallyteam.com/sites/default/files/styles/large_scale/public/RECCE3.jpg

Priority drivers have to carry a very acurate gps that logs and tells them there exact speed. it self activates when it knows its on a stage. The light is a warning that there getting close to the recce speed limit for that particular rally (its different from rally to rally)

After the recce the data is downloaded and hopefully your not in trouble

[WRCS14]

It is sad to think the probem of illegal recce is still widespread in some country. I think it is the sign of a poor driver who trys to make advantage underhanded. I hope with modern technology this will become more and more difficult for them. I would think making notes for WRC speed with just two passes is a skill in itself, so for the driver who cheat it will take much more than sneaking onto a stage late at night or early morning to take on Latvala or Loeb.

[speedhog]

Recording the reece is not a bad idea. as you will be able to play the stage back and check your notes are accurate, and pick up something you may have missed on the stage.
Its another aspect that can help you at full speed.

[TyPat107]

Recording the reece is not a bad idea. as you will be able to play the stage back and check your notes are accurate, and pick up something you may have missed on the stage.
Its another aspect that can help you at full speed.

A handful of events here in the US recce isn't allowed at all, but you are able to purchase a DVD of the stages driven at recce speed.

[speedhog]

Your lucky in that respect. Regional/club (not national) rallys here in nz, are not allowed reece, but you can buy prepared notes. no dvd's of the stages. you see them first, when your going flat out.

[atsiotras79]

I have to agree with N.O.T. about the situation in Greece with recce. And for me the problem is not the unlimited passes if they are done according to speed limits. It is allowed. The problem is that for the last month or so before the rally it is very dangerous for somebody to go and see the stages, or go to work if he lives in the area, because they are doing recce in full rally pace. And that is the reason that people do not want rallies in their area!!!

Incidents are uncountable during the last years in Greece. I have seen with my own eyes, competitor doing recce 10 mins before the ss closes for a local rallysprint at full rally speed and major accident being avoided by pure luck!!!!

Ok back to WRC recce, yes again N.O.T. is correct. Most of the Greeks are doing illegal recce the last months before the rallies Acropolis and ELPA, but at least now there is one problem less, there is no ELPA rally anymore... :)

[WRCS14]

I am surprised this is still happening at WRC level, I remember I think 4 or 5 years ago I read on maybe this site Irish rally champion was caught by some sort of hi tech cameras before the rally carrying out illegal practice to try gain an advantage, surely WRC could maybe do similar. I think it is still a poor sign of the driver as I said it will take a lot more than sneaking around special stages in advance to beat Ogier etc.

Although the sad fact is maybe these cheaters will continue as to get people to observe stages in times before the rally is probably near impossible as people have work/family etc.

[mousti]

In Belgium it's also a big problem, u can't almost avoid it..

[sollitt]

A few years ago a friend was caught marginally exceeding the speed limit in a service park in RNZ. The fines on WRC events are dished out by FIA and his was US$5000 from memory. I wonder what the fine for illegal recce on WRC events would be. Get a few of these dished out and the problem might stop.

[Carlo]

A few years ago a friend was caught marginally exceeding the speed limit in a service park in RNZ. The fines on WRC events are dished out by FIA and his was US$5000 from memory. I wonder what the fine for illegal recce on WRC events would be. Get a few of these dished out and the problem might stop.
Many years ago a well known NZ competitor was caught in the Motu going, according to him, fishing for trout. The fine was US$ 10,000. He has never paid it and accordingly his competition licence is still suspended

[janvanvurpa]

Many years ago a well known NZ competitor was caught in the Motu going, according to him, fishing for trout. The fine was US$ 10,000. He has never paid it and accordingly his competition licence is still suspended

If he's so well known, then why don't I know him? 8)
Or, if you know his name why wouldn't you just say it, so we'd know the well known guy well, too.
Well?

[janvanvurpa]

A few years ago a friend was caught marginally exceeding the speed limit in a service park in RNZ. The fines on WRC events are dished out by FIA and his was US$5000 from memory. I wonder what the fine for illegal recce on WRC events would be. Get a few of these dished out and the problem might stop.


A few years ago a friend of mine was nearly run over by Lovell, gawd rest his soul, and had to literally jump aside. Speed limit in the control area was 5 mph or 9 km/hr. and the car was going at least 45-50 km/hr, revving good. Exclusion was in the rules book and the supplemental regs. Inquiry filed. 6 weeks later, on a Friday night, result of the Stewards was given "as it is impossible to say exactly how fast the car was going , it is impossible to say with certainty Lovell was in fact exceeding the speed limit".


Helps to have one greedy and corrupt gang of "officials" bought and paid for by Subaru Rally Team USA...

[Carlo]

If he's so well known, then why don't I know him? 8)
Or, if you know his name why wouldn't you just say it, so we'd know the well known guy well, too.
Well?
If you had been following the sport 25 years or so a go you would have read all about it for it was reported by the the NZ & overseas media as he was refused a start in the event, of course it was print media and in those days and you may not have received NZ, UK or European based rallysport based magazines in the good old USA

[sollitt]

Not a particularly prominent competitor outside of NZ though Carl so few would know of the incident or in fact of the person himself - only old farts like you & me with long memories.
Point is, if the same penalties were applied to the competitors our Greek friends are complaining about they may very well learn to modify their behaviour.