Red Bull ready to "cheat"

[pino]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/87739

What you say now Dave ? ;)

[CNR]

better they cheat then gift alonso another win

[ArrowsFA1]

When asked if Button would now play a supporting role for Hamilton, Whitmarsh said: "I think at the moment we will think about that. I think we have had a disappointing day with Jenson, but Lewis is still clearly very much in the hunt.
"Mathematically it is not impossible for Jenson but it looks quite tough. Very difficult for him. We will talk about that before Brazil."
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/87740

[pino]

So McLaren are ready to "cheat" as well...shame on them :p :

[ArrowsFA1]

Given that the team orders rule remains in place, and that a definition of cheating is "to violate rules or regulations", then to knowingly break this rule could certainly be described as cheating.

[Dave B]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/87739

What you say now Dave ? ;)
I say it's a shame that Ferrari have dragged other teams down to their level, but part of the blame must lie with the judicial system that sent a message that points cost as little as $14,285 each. For that price, I'm not suprised other teams are considering it.

I wanted to see the championship settled by drivers racing, but Ferrari's actions have ruined that.

[52Paddy]

This can be organised behind the scenes and used to effect without a penalty [if pulled off well]. If RBR want to win the driver's championship, then they should focus on getting Webber as far forward as they can. Both Webber and Vettel have been so close in performance this year [albeit in different areas] that the possibility of taking points of each other is a realistic expectation. Putting their weight behind Vettel doesn't make sense due to his points deficit and, perhaps, a hot head that may crack under pressure [though I have seen him mature in the latter half of this year]. I think Webber is more calm and focused in regard to this hunt, despite his schoolboy error yesterday.

[ArrowsFA1]

...part of the blame must lie with the judicial system that sent a message that points cost as little as $14,285 each. For that price, I'm not suprised other teams are considering it.
Exactly :up: Would they be considering it had the FIA taken away all the points Ferrari earned in Germany?

[wedge]

I say it's a shame that Ferrari have dragged other teams down to their level, but part of the blame must lie with the judicial system that sent a message that points cost as little as $14,285 each. For that price, I'm not suprised other teams are considering it.

I wanted to see the championship settled by drivers racing, but Ferrari's actions have ruined that.

Bullcrap

Team orders has been part of motorsport in the past (inc. post-2003) and should continue to do so.

The current judiciary has recognised how stupid Max Mosley was in trying to win back fans.

[Dave B]

Bullcrap

Team orders has been part of motorsport in the past (inc. post-2003) and should continue to do so.

The current judiciary has recognised how stupid Max Mosley was in trying to win back fans.
I'm actually not that keen on the rule myself. But if all the teams signed up to the 2010 season knowing that was indeed the rule, then they should conduct themselves according to it. I agree that the rule needs looking at but that's not the job of the stewards; they're there to enforce the rules whether they agree with them or not.

[Donney]

Incredible! the all saints, are ready to accept the rules of the game... It was about time.

[ArrowsFA1]

The current judiciary has recognised how stupid Max Mosley was in trying to win back fans.
Maybe Max was trying to pacify the fans, or maybe he was trying to deal with the issue that incensed them. Either way the team orders rule that emerged is generally considered to be a poor one.

However, I don't see how the WMSC addressed much with their recent ruling. It didn't address the team orders rule (maybe this will be done later) and it didn't penalise Ferrari in any meaningful way. It simply upheld the stewards decision (and a fine was the only penalty they could issue) and left things as they are.

[Roamy]

What a arrogant prix this guy is !!

Jenson not ready to support Lewis
Indexed from ITV-F1.com 2 hours 33 minutes ago.
Button backtracks on his declaration that title bid was dead and says he's not planning to be a number two yet

[Dave B]

What a arrogant prix this guy is !!

Jenson not ready to support Lewis
Indexed from ITV-F1.com 2 hours 33 minutes ago.
Button backtracks on his declaration that title bid was dead and says he's not planning to be a number two yet
As I said on another thread, everyone from McLaren and Red Bull are being very guarded what they say in interviews lest they leave themselves open to accusations of breaking the rules.

Behind closed doors I imagine conversations are taking place, but Jenson's hardly going to tell ITV-F1 that his team is preparing to breach 39.1, now is he?

[Big Ben]

A bunch o hypocrites... well 2 bunches of hypocrits... and of course it's ferrari's fault... really really lame.

[Dr. Krogshöj]

I wanted to see the championship settled by drivers racing, but Ferrari's actions have ruined that.

Are you referring to the 1956 Italian Grand Prix?

[Jag_Warrior]

better they cheat then gift alonso another win

:up: :bounce: :up:

[Retro Formula 1]

Bit of trolling there Pino :)

[F1boat]

Bullcrap

Team orders has been part of motorsport in the past (inc. post-2003) and should continue to do so.

The current judiciary has recognised how stupid Max Mosley was in trying to win back fans.

Well said.

[Hawkmoon]

I say it's a shame that Ferrari have dragged other teams down to their level, but part of the blame must lie with the judicial system that sent a message that points cost as little as $14,285 each. For that price, I'm not suprised other teams are considering it.

I wanted to see the championship settled by drivers racing, but Ferrari's actions have ruined that.

Let me try and unravel this little bit of Dave-logic.

The only reason that Red Bull and McLaren can use team orders now is because Ferrari did it first. Do you really believe that? Are you saying that you will have no problem with Red Bull and McLaren "cheating" simply because Ferrari did it first? Your whole argument is "but they did it too!"?

On the flip side, would you be just as outraged if McLaren move Button over for Hamilton at Interlagos if Ferrari hadn't done the same in Germany? Considering Alonso doesn't drive for McLaren I'm thinking not.

Christian Horner has no business using team orders in the last two races after the rubbish he came out with after Germany. The situation for Red Bull now is no different from the one faced by Ferrari then. Vettel is mathematically in the title hunt but realistically out of it without a huge slice of luck. That's the exact same situation that Ferrari faced in Germany.

A question to all those who believed that Alonso would win a tainted title this year because of Germany: Will Hamilton's and Webber's titles be tainted too if their team mates help them win?

[gloomyDAY]

Doesn't matter what Red Bull does from here to the end of the season.

They blew their load like a 15 year-old virgin and now Alonso is going to win the title. The only way I can see either Red Bull driver winning the championship is if Vettel slams into Alonso for the consecutive 2 races and lets Webber get away with the title.

[Bagwan]

I think they should purple monkey toaster spoon .
Can you all confirm that you got that message ?



Stupid , stupid rule .

[CNR]

the easy way to stop team orders serepate sponsors on each car

walls rossi - Lorenzo

[CNR]

Red Bull ready to "cheat"
if this was true don't you think there would have been blocking from toro rosso by now ?

[gloomyDAY]

Red Bull ready to "cheat"
if this was true don't you think there would have been blocking from toro rosso by now ?A good idea is a good idea.

I forgot all about Toro Rosso. Red Bull can have up to 3 drivers trying to punt Alonso off the track.
That's not in breach of the rules if it was an "accidental" occurrence. :vader:

[Ari]

Exactly :up: Would they be considering it had the FIA taken away all the points Ferrari earned in Germany?

I'm a Ferrari fan and was disappointed they got away so lightly in Germany. The minimum fee should have been a loss of all points for that round. And, had the FIA done that, then the championship would look a lot different right now.

This whole season may end up coming down to the words "Fernando is faster than you".

VERY disappointing way to end it.

[Ari]

Bullcrap

Team orders has been part of motorsport in the past (inc. post-2003) and should continue to do so.

The current judiciary has recognised how stupid Max Mosley was in trying to win back fans.

YES, but having a car pull over and be overtaken by its #1 driver is not part of that package. The FIA know it exists, but they expect teams to do so in a discreet manner where its not seen by the public in light of day.

The teams have THAT responsibility. It's one of those unwritten laws. Ferrari, instead, decided to spit on that and just orchestrate it the way they liked anyway.... almost as if holding a finger up to the FIA. Well, it seems 100k later that Ferrari won that little battle.

[Ari]

As I said on another thread, everyone from McLaren and Red Bull are being very guarded what they say in interviews lest they leave themselves open to accusations of breaking the rules.

Behind closed doors I imagine conversations are taking place, but Jenson's hardly going to tell ITV-F1 that his team is preparing to breach 39.1, now is he?

Precisely correct.

[Ari]

And, finally, if RBR does end up backing Webber in the last 2 races it will be disappointing for Vettel as Webber made an error in the last race which cost him points whereas Vettel had a mechanical DNF.

I think were it the other way around RBR would have EVERY reason to drop Vettel and pickup Webber. Makes it difficult now as RBR would be effectively stopping Vettels WDC charge due to their own engine going boom while he was leading a race and ready to tie WDC points.

What an incredible punishment for Vettel.

[truefan72]

With two races to go and all three top teams with one driver with a chance of winning, I think teams would be wise to consider their priorities. Its approaching round 18, not 10 or 11, and teams have allowed their drivers to compete against each other all season with ample chance to make their mark.
except ferrari who decided to put a black eye on the sport in Germany.
Listen there is nothing wrong with a driver helping a teammate out or supporting their teammate if they themselves are pretty much out of it. This is normal and this is expected. It is not frowned upon and many fans understand and accept that. What they don't accept is what happened in Germany 2010.

@Pino
Please don't hide behind legal absolutes. That situation is completely different than what's going on now with 2 races to go. you are smarter than that Pino :|

[Duchess]

And, finally, if RBR does end up backing Webber in the last 2 races it will be disappointing for Vettel as Webber made an error in the last race which cost him points whereas Vettel had a mechanical DNF.


Have you honestly forgotten the rest of the crazy things Seb Vettel has pulled this season?? Not to mention 9 poles in 17 races and how many races has he actually won? 3.

If anything this should be punishment deserved. He has many years to actually mature and claw his way up to a win; he should take this season to heart as the lessons should be valuable for him in his racing career.

[RJL25]

RBR management are nuts

They say its "too early" to favour one driver over the other, guys, THERES ONLY TWO RACES LEFT!

Ferrari decided to favour Alonso way back in Germany, and it could well be that those extra 7 points he got there by swapping positions with Massa is what wins Fernando the championship. We've said all along that the only team that can beat RBR for the championship is RBR, and it seems thats exactly what they are going to do!

Then Horner says there is only one race win between Seb and Alonso, but geez thats a bit simplistic because it would not only require Seb getting a race win, but also both Alonso and Webber to finnish out of the points, I mean its so obvious to everyone else that Webber is the only realistic chance of catching Alonso with only two races to go, but RBR are so desperate to not upset Vettel's precious feelings that they are basically prepared to throw away the championship for Webber, and thats exactly what they are doing!

At the end of the day Webber has won more races and scored more points the Vettel so far, for all intents and purposes he has beaten him, the guy has earned the right to have the team behind him for the final push for the championship!

[RJL25]

And, finally, if RBR does end up backing Webber in the last 2 races it will be disappointing for Vettel as Webber made an error in the last race which cost him points whereas Vettel had a mechanical DNF.

I think were it the other way around RBR would have EVERY reason to drop Vettel and pickup Webber. Makes it difficult now as RBR would be effectively stopping Vettels WDC charge due to their own engine going boom while he was leading a race and ready to tie WDC points.

What an incredible punishment for Vettel.

So what so as to not upset Vettel because it was their own engine failure, RBR should also dramatically compromise Webbers chances of winning the WDC? Come on, he's 25 points behind with two races to go, he's not going to win! Webber still can, the only sensible thing to do is to rally behind the driver that is still able to realistically win it.

Michel is great and ranker in racer competitions. so no one can cheat. i like the racing competitions to see.

[DexDexter]

So McLaren are ready to "cheat" as well...shame on them :p :

It's bit different to cheat with two races to go than halfway through the season. ;)

[pino]

@Pino

Please don't hide behind legal absolutes. That situation is completely different than what's going on now with 2 races to go. you are smarter than that Pino :|



It's bit different to cheat with two races to go than halfway through the season. ;)

If you do break a rule, it doesn't matter whether it's at the beginning, halfway or the end of the season...or does it ? :confused: Please do explain me ;)

[Big Ben]

It's bit different to cheat with two races to go than halfway through the season. ;)

Once upon a time the speeches were focusing on the mathematical chances... of course back then Massa had mathematical chances but didn't have... how should I call them... common sense chances? and right now both button and vettel are in the same situation.... so lets forget about that and talk about the length of the season.... it's simple, it suits our views and who can argue that there are only 2 races left. I can't. I would go as far as to say RBR were really the dumbest team of them all. They had this title in their bag and yet they insist on backing the wrong driver. Had they given full support to the other driver things would have been more boring today. I hope they stay stupid for the rest of the season too.... All this resembles a lot the McLaren 2007 situation. They too backed the wrong driver and ended up losing everything. While those dumb ferrari guys were in no man's land at the middle of the season and look how bad they are doing now...

[CNR]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/formulaone/article-1323683/Why-wrong-Fernando-Alonso-ended-F1-world-champion.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

[fandango]

Ferrari broke the rules, they got punished. If you don't agree with the punishment, blame the punishers, not Ferrari.

In Valencia Hamilton got a drive-through penalty for the way he drove under the safety car. Alonso had one of his famous radio moans about it, and he did arguably have a point, because by the time Hamilton got his penalty it didn't really affect his race at all. However, the reason we are not still arguing about that particular incident is that a drive-through penalty is the previously agreed punishment for that offense, so there's not much more to say.

The problem with Ferrari's tactics in Germany was that the punishment was not automatic, so the debate continues. But I don't see how you can blame Ferrari.

Another example is Hamilton's pole lap in Canada, when they broke the rules by not having enough fuel in the car. What's the correct penalty for that?

But people love to demonise...

[Retro Formula 1]

Most people will agree that they don't like seeing a driver pull over for a team mate unless:

a: They are on different strategies and it would be detrimental to the team and drivers if they don't co-operate.

b: There is no realistic or mathematical chance that the 2nd driver will win the championship.

We are getting to the point in the championship that there are 3 drivers from 3 teams that have a realistic chance and most of us would accept that in this situation, tactics can be employed. Indeed, 'most' drivers would do it off their own back.

What people don't like Pino, and it's no good spitting your dummy out when we get to the last noggins of the season and the above examples come into play, is when teams manufacture a #1 / #2 driver when the #2 is duped. I guess Massa gradually realised he was a #2 as the season went on and is pretty demotivated.

I am not some fresh faced fan and know the inner machinations of F1 politics better than most. I appreciate strategy and tactics are part and parcel of racing which leads to team orders. We all know it goes on so why the problem.

Well, the problem is that Ferrari are too f%$king stupid when they use it and end up making F1 look a laughing stock. Still, they know they can do so as they will only ever get a slap on the wrist eh ;)

[Hawkmoon]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/formulaone/article-1323683/Why-wrong-Fernando-Alonso-ended-F1-world-champion.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

What a hypocritical load of rubbish! It's OK for Kovalainen to move over for Hamilton in 2008 or for Button to be ordered not to challenge Hamilton in Turkey this year but it's not OK for Ferrari to use team orders. Hamilton's was a "clean" title but Alonso's would be oh so dirty!

This clown even suggests that team orders are perfectly OK as long as they done on the sly where nobody can see. What ****ing difference does it make?

[ArrowsFA1]

Ferrari broke the rules, they got punished. If you don't agree with the punishment, blame the punishers, not Ferrari.
While the FIA carry considerable responsibility for the mess that is the team orders rule I'm not sure we should entirely absolve any team of blame for breaking the rules.

[555-04Q2]

I say it's a shame that Ferrari have dragged other teams down to their level, but part of the blame must lie with the judicial system that sent a message that points cost as little as $14,285 each. For that price, I'm not suprised other teams are considering it.

I wanted to see the championship settled by drivers racing, but Ferrari's actions have ruined that.

Thats bullsh!t Dave. Read my siggy. All teams cheat, all the time, whenever they can. Its a case of whether you get caught or not. The world of sport has changed. People believing otherwise are just plain old stupid.

[Retro Formula 1]

Thats bullsh!t Dave. Read my siggy. All teams cheat, all the time, whenever they can. Its a case of whether you get caught or not. The world of sport has changed. People believing otherwise are just plain old stupid.

You are both in a way correct. If we remove emotion from this argument then we have the basic premise of why F1 is known as the Piranha Club.

All teams cheat in the same way that all adult* members of the public have broken the law. These are the types of arguments that people on here use to justify just about anything. You cannot show me a member of the public who has never sped, nicked a sweet as a child, dropped a piece of litter etc.

*(As I was writing that sentence, I had to add the word Adult because you know some ignoramus would argue a 1 second old baby was innocent :rolleyes: )

So, all teams cheat in some way, shape or form and therefore we can categorise them all together as we do a Murderer and someone that finds £5 in the street and doesn't hand it in to the Police.

Lets go back to the dawn of Ferrari. Enzo always insisted his drivers do not challenge each other and whoever was in first remained there to avoid taking each other off. In the so called days of Gentlemen, we saw the tragic consequences when this unwritten rule was broken with the death of GV being widely accepted as associated with the previous race and the breaking of this Gentleman's agreement.

The truth can also be said about Red Bull this year. I have no doubt, no doubt whatsoever, that RB tried to engineer a Vettel championship this year and listened to the public backlash when they began implementing it. Had they been ruthless, both championships would have been in the bag by now.

So, whatever you call it. bending the rules, exploiting the regulations, not adhering to the spirit of the rules or blatantly cheating, it all goes on and has always been a part of F1.

It is true that Alonso will almost certainly win this year because Ferrari ordered Massa to let him pass (and please don't argue that it wasn't an order. If you think that then go and answer some Hotmails from Nigerian Millionaires). That being the case, the cost of the championship this year will be $100k.

In the same situation, would other teams have done the same. I dare say some may have and others wouldn't. That's not to say they are paragons of virtue (did you like what I did there ;) ) but they operate their team ethos in a different way. They will still exploit team orders when one driver has a chance and the other has none but not to the extent, and in the manner that Ferrari did.

The rule is wrong, but it is a rule and it was fundamentally broken and Ferrari win a championship as a consequence. You can sit at home and feel sorry for yourselves or get the first strike in next year as it's a Piranha eat Piranha world out there. Just pray that your team has more subtlety than that of a rampaging, prancing horse.

[Bagwan]

You are both in a way correct. If we remove emotion from this argument then we have the basic premise of why F1 is known as the Piranha Club.

All teams cheat in the same way that all adult* members of the public have broken the law. These are the types of arguments that people on here use to justify just about anything. You cannot show me a member of the public who has never sped, nicked a sweet as a child, dropped a piece of litter etc.

*(As I was writing that sentence, I had to add the word Adult because you know some ignoramus would argue a 1 second old baby was innocent :rolleyes: )

So, all teams cheat in some way, shape or form and therefore we can categorise them all together as we do a Murderer and someone that finds £5 in the street and doesn't hand it in to the Police.

Lets go back to the dawn of Ferrari. Enzo always insisted his drivers do not challenge each other and whoever was in first remained there to avoid taking each other off. In the so called days of Gentlemen, we saw the tragic consequences when this unwritten rule was broken with the death of GV being widely accepted as associated with the previous race and the breaking of this Gentleman's agreement.

The truth can also be said about Red Bull this year. I have no doubt, no doubt whatsoever, that RB tried to engineer a Vettel championship this year and listened to the public backlash when they began implementing it. Had they been ruthless, both championships would have been in the bag by now.

So, whatever you call it. bending the rules, exploiting the regulations, not adhering to the spirit of the rules or blatantly cheating, it all goes on and has always been a part of F1.

It is true that Alonso will almost certainly win this year because Ferrari ordered Massa to let him pass (and please don't argue that it wasn't an order. If you think that then go and answer some Hotmails from Nigerian Millionaires). That being the case, the cost of the championship this year will be $100k.

In the same situation, would other teams have done the same. I dare say some may have and others wouldn't. That's not to say they are paragons of virtue (did you like what I did there ;) ) but they operate their team ethos in a different way. They will still exploit team orders when one driver has a chance and the other has none but not to the extent, and in the manner that Ferrari did.

The rule is wrong, but it is a rule and it was fundamentally broken and Ferrari win a championship as a consequence. You can sit at home and feel sorry for yourselves or get the first strike in next year as it's a Piranha eat Piranha world out there. Just pray that your team has more subtlety than that of a rampaging, prancing horse.

May I insert here that Ferrari were set to do the change in position of thier drivers in that controversial decision in an accepted way , within the regs(purple monkey toaster cow) , but the efforts to remain covert were scuttled by a disgruntled employee and his equally disgruntled engineer ?

Can we all confirm that we all understand this ?

Purple monkey toaster cow is pretty clear isn't it ?
Unless , of course , you say sorry afterwards .

Box , box , is a team order , and effects the outcome of the race , every time .

Stupid , stupid rule .

[DexDexter]

If you do break a rule, it doesn't matter whether it's at the beginning, halfway or the end of the season...or does it ? :confused: Please do explain me ;)

True, but we are not talking about rules, we are talking about racing and the spirit of racing. If everybody does what Ferrari did in Germany (implement team orders in the middle of the season) racing will die. For Ferrari it was the right strategy, for everyone else it was horrible.

[donKey jote]

It's bit different to cheat with two races to go than halfway through the season. ;)

if at all, I would say it's worse to "cheat" with two races to go, as then you can have an immediate effect on the end result ;) :dozey:

[Big Ben]

True, but we are not talking about rules, we are talking about racing and the spirit of racing. If everybody does what Ferrari did in Germany (implement team orders in the middle of the season) racing will die. For Ferrari it was the right strategy, for everyone else it was horrible.

I enjoyed the 1998, 1999, 2000 season a lot and it was pretty clear that both ferrari and mclaren put their weight behind one of their drivers and they were right to do so... and I rember some great races from that period. I didn´t understand Austria 2002 however. That was odd because Ferrari was so far ahead the moved seemed totaly unnecessary. But in normal conditions when a team is in a close fight with another I believe it's quite normal to use whatever strategy they need to maximize their result. I don´t understand why they have shoot themselves in the leg. It's like in football one shoots on his won goal and the goalkeeper should let it in just because it would be wonderful goal.

[mstillhere]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/87739

What you say now Dave ? ;)

My point exactely. The thing is that RB and McALren CANNOT CHEAT!!. After what they said about Ferrari it would be way, way hypocritical if they were to establish "officially" team orders (we all know that have had unoficial team orders going on for a while). Of course after showing so much outrage (this is so funny) at Alonso and Ferrari they canniot lose their face and apply team orders. In support to what I am saying, I loved to see how JB retractred his early statement. First he said it was all over for him and then the next day took everything back. He forgot the rule concerning team orders "a la McLaren". :) . And then RB owne saying it was "too early" for team orders at RB. Hysterical liar. :)
For the hypocrits in this place, I would like to shatre with you that F1 teams are not racing to simply amuse you. There is a lot of money in this.oney that comes out their pockets by the millions. And if you think that they should operate based on some romantic sense of chivalry then you are a little naive. If in all this you are also having fun well....THAT"S GREAT!!!

Ferrari, RB and McLaren to name a few are not in the business to make their drivers famous, as mentioned in a previous post. There is only one rule in F1 that any professional knows: Only ONE driver/team can be first. End of the story. Now I got to go..where is my Macchiavelli book????????? :)

PS As for all of you who spoke against team orders I truly hope are going to be consistent with what you have been saying about it and you are going to flip flopping and inconsistent.

[Tazio]

Webber tried to take out rivals - Berger
There are several reasons I could think of why Mark didn't hit the brakes, not the least of which he was the one in the car and had a good idea where he would come to rest which was off the track. Plus that is considering he even had any brakes :confused:
Mark is my second pick of drivers I'd like to see win it all.
Are Berger and Rosberg just being tools, and making false accustions against Chopper? :p :
Plus are any of these guys actually nuts enough to willfully take a T-bone at 150mph
http://www.espn.co.uk/formula1/sport/story/52669.html?CMP=OTC-RSS


"I don't understand why Webber didn't hit the brakes," said Rosberg on Twitter. "It was crazy to roll back across the track like that."

Former grand prix winner Berger told Austrian Servus TV: "He could have hit the brakes and stopped the car at the wall. He took out Rosberg, but it was the wrong one. I think in his mind he would have preferred Alonso or Hamilton."

Asked to clarify whether he thinks Webber's move was deliberate, Berger a former co-owner of the second Red Bull team Toro Rosso - added
:s ailor: "Yes, I think that's very clear.
Personally I don't think he had enough time to hatch that plot ;)

:s ailor: At leat that is what I prefer to believe

[Duchess]

HA Gerhard Berger was on crack in that article, honestly. As if sacrificing his own race in the off chance that he crashes to take out Alonso would have been a benefit to him. If anything, Vettel most likely would have gone on to win and taken points off of himself (disregarding the possibility of an engine blowing up).

Not the least the fact that Mark Webber hardly seems the vindictive type. Gerhard, we all know you're a rabid Seb Vettel fan but methinks you should step away from the media for a second and take a deep breath. :laugh:

[mstillhere]

I enjoyed the 1998, 1999, 2000 season a lot and it was pretty clear that both ferrari and mclaren put their weight behind one of their drivers and they were right to do so... and I rember some great races from that period. I didn´t understand Austria 2002 however. That was odd because Ferrari was so far ahead the moved seemed totaly unnecessary. But in normal conditions when a team is in a close fight with another I believe it's quite normal to use whatever strategy they need to maximize their result. I don´t understand why they have shoot themselves in the leg. It's like in football one shoots on his won goal and the goalkeeper should let it in just because it would be wonderful goal.

I think it was just pure arrogance. It was the golden days. Everything and everyone were subject to Ferrari power. The chance to fall in temptations and sin was ever great and they.........did.

I think now is a little diferent but boy they had to try reallly hard to become a little more humble (maeby too much). That's I guess why Domenicali followed Todt. I like them better now.

[mstillhere]

Webber tried to take out rivals - Berger
There are several reasons I could think of why Mark didn't hit the brakes, not the least of which he was the one in the car and had a good idea where he would come to rest which was off the track. Plus that is considering he even had any brakes :confused:
Mark is my second pick of drivers I'd like to see win it all.
Are Berger and Rosberg just being tools, and making false accustions against Chopper? :p :
Plus are any of these guys actually nuts enough to willfully take a T-bone at 150mph
http://www.espn.co.uk/formula1/sport/story/52669.html?CMP=OTC-RSS


Personally I don't think he had enough time to hatch that plot ;)

:s ailor: At leat that is what I prefer to believe

I will never beleive that.

[airshifter]

Webber tried to take out rivals - Berger
There are several reasons I could think of why Mark didn't hit the brakes, not the least of which he was the one in the car and had a good idea where he would come to rest which was off the track. Plus that is considering he even had any brakes :confused:
Mark is my second pick of drivers I'd like to see win it all.
Are Berger and Rosberg just being tools, and making false accustions against Chopper? :p :
Plus are any of these guys actually nuts enough to willfully take a T-bone at 150mph
http://www.espn.co.uk/formula1/sport/story/52669.html?CMP=OTC-RSS


Personally I don't think he had enough time to hatch that plot ;)

:s ailor: At leat that is what I prefer to believe


You haven't seen the Red Bull "taking out an opponent while rolling backwards after an off" simulator? :laugh:

And here I thought the members of this forum came up with the best conspiracy theories.



As for the possible "cheating", the precedent has been set. Rather than make an attempt at hiding it like Ferrari did, they should just state it as a team order. "Seb let Mark pass so we take both titles. We will pay all fines. Do you understand this instruction?"

[Tazio]

I will never beleive that.

Believe what?
By quoting me it kinda seems like you are saying that I believe Mark was trying to pick someone off which I wasn't!
:s ailor: Or am I just paranoid :uhoh:

[Hawkmoon]

You haven't seen the Red Bull "taking out an opponent while rolling backwards after an off" simulator? :laugh:

And here I thought the members of this forum came up with the best conspiracy theories.



As for the possible "cheating", the precedent has been set. Rather than make an attempt at hiding it like Ferrari did, they should just state it as a team order. "Seb let Mark pass so we take both titles. We will pay all fines. Do you understand this instruction?"

They can't do that. The problem they FIA had is that they believed Ferrari used team orders but couldn't prove it, which is why they then went on to question the validity of the rule.

If Red Bull or McLaren come out and explicitly use team orders then the FIA won't have any problems with proof and the penalty will probably be much greater than what Ferrari received. Another example of why the rule has to go.

[555-04Q2]

PS As for all of you who spoke against team orders I truly hope are going to be consistent with what you have been saying about it and you are going to flip flopping and inconsistent.

You are expecting holy people on this forum who have never broken a rule in their life, never cheated during an exam, never broken the speed limit, never tried to dodge the tax man, in fact never done anything wrong in their lives to do what ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????

:laugh: Honestly, I p!ssed myselfwhen I read this. Thank you for making my morning :up:

[DexDexter]

I enjoyed the 1998, 1999, 2000 season a lot and it was pretty clear that both ferrari and mclaren put their weight behind one of their drivers and they were right to do so... and I rember some great races from that period. I didn´t understand Austria 2002 however. That was odd because Ferrari was so far ahead the moved seemed totaly unnecessary. But in normal conditions when a team is in a close fight with another I believe it's quite normal to use whatever strategy they need to maximize their result. I don´t understand why they have shoot themselves in the leg. It's like in football one shoots on his won goal and the goalkeeper should let it in just because it would be wonderful goal.

Yep, at the end of the season when one driver has a clear advantage. Alonso didn't in Germany.

[ShiftingGears]

I think Ferrari's use of team orders was justified, as would be RBR's use of team orders.

At that stage of the championship, an Alonso WDC looked about as unlikely as a Webber WDC does now. And like Massa, Vettel is still mathematically in contention for the championship. Same situation, as far as I am concerned.


Anotheer thing - if Massa wasn't unwilling to move over for Alonso, and the message didn't have to be repeated enough for the F1 broadcast to pick up on it, I doubt as many people would've been in an uproar about it.


As for teams complaining about other teams breaking rules that they themselves would break - that's always been the case.

[mike.flynn]

Personally, i think that the driver's should be given the scenario's of what could happen if they come ahead of a team mate that was above them in the championship i.e vettel being told that if he comes first both races and alonso comes third both races and webber 2nd, alonso would then win the championship, so then the driver could make his own decision on whether to be a 'team' player or not. At the end of the day F1 is a team sport, and all drivers should be team players in my opinion,

[Bagwan]

Personally, i think that the driver's should be given the scenario's of what could happen if they come ahead of a team mate that was above them in the championship i.e vettel being told that if he comes first both races and alonso comes third both races and webber 2nd, alonso would then win the championship, so then the driver could make his own decision on whether to be a 'team' player or not. At the end of the day F1 is a team sport, and all drivers should be team players in my opinion,

That's a perfect world you're talking about , though , Mike .
And , welcome aboard , by the way .

We have a cast of players that are fiercely competitive , and the thought of playing the role of the dignified , dutiful number two is gone .
You are vilified , along with your team , for denying the great unwashed of a real race .

This flies directly in the face of the corporate financiers , who have no personal interest in the driver , other than to see his face advertising products . They want the best chance to win .

The teams can't afford to let the drivers make the decisions .

It would be a rare moment that they would not think only of themselves .

Mind you , if he's fast , and does think as a team-mate and good employee should , perhaps he is the perfect driver .
In that perfect world , each driver would freely give any tips he can offer , to his co-driver , hoping the team as a whole would progress .
The team in that world should also hope to pair drivers who are closely matched in style , to aid the improvement in the chassis .

But , this here world aint perfect , and team orders are required , but illegal .

[mike.flynn]

That's a perfect world you're talking about , though , Mike .
And , welcome aboard , by the way .

We have a cast of players that are fiercely competitive , and the thought of playing the role of the dignified , dutiful number two is gone .
You are vilified , along with your team , for denying the great unwashed of a real race .

This flies directly in the face of the corporate financiers , who have no personal interest in the driver , other than to see his face advertising products . They want the best chance to win .

The teams can't afford to let the drivers make the decisions .

It would be a rare moment that they would not think only of themselves .

Mind you , if he's fast , and does think as a team-mate and good employee should , perhaps he is the perfect driver .
In that perfect world , each driver would freely give any tips he can offer , to his co-driver , hoping the team as a whole would progress .
The team in that world should also hope to pair drivers who are closely matched in style , to aid the improvement in the chassis .

But , this here world aint perfect , and team orders are required , but illegal .

Cheers for the welcome. You are correct, this ain't a perfect world, but at this point of the season its something they should think about.

[wedge]

but they expect teams to do so in a discreet manner where its not seen by the public in light of day.

"Discreet manner"

:rotflmao:

Team orders are team orders regardless if they're blatant or not. We should not have and put up with silly excuses just to legitimise them.

[Bagwan]

Cheers for the welcome. You are correct, this ain't a perfect world, but at this point of the season its something they should think about.

It's something they need to be thinking about at whatever time in the season they see fit to do so .
It's when it becomes OK that seems to be the biggest difference in opinion here .

It's when "illegal" becomes "OK" .

Now that Fernando is far ahead , would Ferrari be fined $100,000.00 for switching the two red cars around ?

Criticizing a team for the choice is fine and dandy , but with it presently illegal to employ team orders , and the public equating specific numbers in terms of cash per point , would it cost less , now that the public might be able to understand the decision better ?

It's simply a part of the game .
It's a stupid rule .

[Big Ben]

Yep, at the end of the season when one driver has a clear advantage. Alonso didn't in Germany.

here we see things differently. I think that both Mika and Alonso have a clear advantage. They are clearly better than their team mates :laugh:

[ioan]

Exactly :up: Would they be considering it had the FIA taken away all the points Ferrari earned in Germany?

No they wouldn't, but then again can you trust the FIA?

[mstillhere]

If anything I think some of the postings on the previous page are rather hypocritical. You are aware that teams in F1 complain about one another (in a hypocritical way of course) to put the opposition off their stride, and distract them at a crucial point in the championship don't you?

Anyone would think Ferrari have never publically complained, which of course they have along with all the other big teams at some point. Williams used to have public spats with Ferrari on a regular basis, and Ferrari were often reporting what they believed to be illegal configurations on opponents cars. Its the nature of the game, so lets not start pulling the innocent or hollier than holly card. I am a Mclaren fan and I can admit that dirty tricks have been used in the past, and Whitmarsh complaining about the Red Bull this season is a fine example, but its rather embarrassing to see our fellow Ferrari fans complaining about tactics that their own beloved team has also implimented for many years. Welcome to the world of Formula One. :eek:

Who is complaning? I am only asking you guys to stick to your guns. McLaren and McLAren fans cried bloody murder about the "horrendus" crime commited by Ferrari. Applauded the stewards for fining the red team and then the BIG trial to finally show Ferrari how terribly had Massa been treated.

Well, not I am simply asking to stick to your noble ethics and don't start trying to justify team orders that could come from both McLaren (although they have already started, ask Button) or RB. (That would be flip flopping on the issue).

As a Ferrari team I never ONCE said that Ferrrari did not use team orders and actually defended them. It's only now that McLaren fans are realizing that the "both pilots can race each other" strategy is a luxury that nobody can afford and now that the championship is slipping away I see a certain tendency from McLAren and RB to retract what has beed said about team orders by McLaren and RB fans. (although we all know that they have been using team orders any way 0ask Webber you know teh "second driver")

If anything I welcome you to MY F1 the real one where team orders should be legal, (avoiding abviously spectacles such as we saw in Austria between Ruby and Schumi.)

[mstillhere]

Yep, at the end of the season when one driver has a clear advantage. Alonso didn't in Germany.

Nor did Hamilton. And the champioship is not at the end of the season. What you do at the end of the season is putting together all those points you scored throught the season

[mstillhere]

I think Ferrari's use of team orders was justified, as would be RBR's use of team orders.

At that stage of the championship, an Alonso WDC looked about as unlikely as a Webber WDC does now. And like Massa, Vettel is still mathematically in contention for the championship. Same situation, as far as I am concerned.


Anotheer thing - if Massa wasn't unwilling to move over for Alonso, and the message didn't have to be repeated enough for the F1 broadcast to pick up on it, I doubt as many people would've been in an uproar about it.


As for teams complaining about other teams breaking rules that they themselves would break - that's always been the case.

Amen

[mstillhere]

Personally, i think that the driver's should be given the scenario's of what could happen if they come ahead of a team mate that was above them in the championship i.e vettel being told that if he comes first both races and alonso comes third both races and webber 2nd, alonso would then win the championship, so then the driver could make his own decision on whether to be a 'team' player or not. At the end of the day F1 is a team sport, and all drivers should be team players in my opinion,

I disagree. ANd that's my opinion. F1 is an individual sport. It should be a team sport but it is not.

[mstillhere]

Cheers for the welcome. You are correct, this ain't a perfect world, but at this point of the season its something they should think about.

Team orders cannot be illegal at the beginning of the season and legal later on. If they are illegal, their illegality does not change.
PS Welcome btw :)

[mstillhere]

It's something they need to be thinking about at whatever time in the season they see fit to do so .
It's when it becomes OK that seems to be the biggest difference in opinion here .

It's when "illegal" becomes "OK" .

Now that Fernando is far ahead , would Ferrari be fined $100,000.00 for switching the two red cars around ?

Criticizing a team for the choice is fine and dandy , but with it presently illegal to employ team orders , and the public equating specific numbers in terms of cash per point , would it cost less , now that the public might be able to understand the decision better ?

It's simply a part of the game .
It's a stupid rule .

Nicely put

[mstillhere]

Holy cow. I did it again. Sorry :)

[Mia 01]

I think "cheat" is a bad choice of wording in this case, even if what ferrari does is against the rules.

When I think of the 800 paper of information at MacLaren 2007 I´m inklined to use the word cheat.

[Arjuna]

What makes team in procrastination deciding the tactic, they can't control external factors as anything still can happen in the next two races. In case Vettel is to race in his capacity supporting Webber, we never know that Webber can finish and win over Alonso. The concrete tactic perhaps will be decided after Brazil.

At the moment they may see their two drivers still have the same opportunity. Last year Vettel outplayed Webber significantly, while before being teammated with Vettel except 2007 Webber was also a teammate killer. It doesn't sem easy to signify any of them have to support another one.

In Brazil both of them will race to the utmost to score as much points as possible. Team will take the risk of it, evaluating it, and may play a backing-up role in the last round.

[DexDexter]

here we see things differently. I think that both Mika and Alonso have a clear advantage. They are clearly better than their team mates :laugh:

I don't disagree with that. Massa simply isn't the driver he was before Hungary last year. Maybe it's the injury, maybe it's confidence. You can see that the speed is somewhere there at times, but usually he is just struggling.

[Valve Bounce]

So McLaren are ready to "cheat" as well...shame on them :p :

Yep!! Ferrari is the only honest team fighting for the championship.

[N4D13]

Anyway, if Red Bull wants to win the WDC, I think that they should tell Vettel to let Webber in front. If Vettel leads a RBR 1-2 with Alonso in third in Interlagos, Alonso will only need another third place to win the championship in Abu Dhabi.

That said, I think that a RBR 1-2 is the most likely scenario in Interlagos, because the pecking order at the time seems to be RBR > Ferrari > McLaren.

[steveaki13]

Anyway, if Red Bull wants to win the WDC, I think that they should tell Vettel to let Webber in front. If Vettel leads a RBR 1-2 with Alonso in third in Interlagos, Alonso will only need another third place to win the championship in Abu Dhabi.
.


Agree.

It would be hard for Red Bull to see a title potentially slipping away and not choosing to employ team orders.

Red Bull need to win this title and should do what ever they need to to win it. As Ferrari have.

If they (Webber & Red Bull) finish 1 point behind Alonso Ferrari how many people in years to come will remember that Red Bull were fair to their drivers and Ferrari weren't. All people will remember is Alonso being World Champion.

Team orders at this stage are a no brainer.

For me rule should be altered as to pre 2002.

[steveaki13]

:)

Just for the heck of it my 500th post Yee ha at time of writing.

[fandango]

If Vettel leads a RBR 1-2 with Alonso in third in Interlagos, Alonso will only need another third place to win the championship in Abu Dhabi.

Mathematics has never been my strong point, but I don't think you're right. If Alonso gets two third places he'll have 261 points. Webber could come second in Brazil and then go on to win the championship, but only if he wins in Abu Dhabi and Alonso is third.

[Hawkmoon]

Mathematics has never been my strong point, but I don't think you're right. If Alonso gets two third places he'll have 261 points. Webber could come second in Brazil and then go on to win the championship, but only if he wins in Abu Dhabi and Alonso is third.

Alonso can win the title with 2 third places as long as Webber doesn't win either of the remaining races. As Vettel has been clearly quicker than Webber in the last few races Red Bull are going to have little choice but the use team orders. I can imagine Vettel running with a slightly de-tuned engine. Christian "we will NEVER use team orders" Horner has already hinted as much.

[CNR]

Alonso can win the title with 2 third places as long as Webber doesn't win either of the remaining races. As Vettel has been clearly quicker than Webber in the last few races Red Bull are going to have little choice but the use team orders. I can imagine Vettel running with a slightly de-tuned engine. Christian "we will NEVER use team orders" Horner has already hinted as much.

if they did that they would run the risk of the car being to slow
and extra 1 to 2 seconds in the pitstop

[mstillhere]

I think "cheat" is a bad choice of wording in this case, even if what ferrari does is against the rules.

When I think of the 800 paper of information at MacLaren 2007 I´m inklined to use the word cheat.

You are right. Cheating is done in secret. Alonso "passed" Massa's spot in front of the whole world. As far as the other "incident" you mentioned, that was not done in public

[mstillhere]

You are complaining. The last page of this thread is full of anti Mclaren and Red Bull tripe.If Mclaren order Button to pull over for Hamilton I will be equally annoyed.

Button has publically stated that he will not support Hamilton yet, so your accusation of team orders already being used is the product of your wild imagination. You could always provide proof, or is that a silly recommendation?
http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?id=49538

I don't remember accusing you of not admitting Ferrari used team orders???
I remember asking you to stop whinging about other teams complaining about certain aspects of Ferrari at the height of a title fight. Ferrari have used the same tactics for as long as I can remember, so its double standards to complain now isn't it? :rolleyes:

1. I am sorry but I fail to see the double standards you are accusing me of.

2. I praise your stand if McLaren were to cheat, although the use of the word "annoyed" hardly compares with the outburst directed at Ferrrari.

3. Button is does not know what to say nor what he is saying. Here for your pleasure:
a. http://www.itv-f1.com/news_article.aspx?id=49524
b. http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/87785

As far as my wild imagination there are plenty of people talking about how Button is being used as the lab mouse for Hamilton to use. I posted a newspaper article about this. This is for your pleasue as well:
http://formula-one.speedtv.com/article/f1-mclaren-used-jenson-button-as-sacrificial-lamb-says-christian-horner/

So, it looks like, at least for some people, McLaren is not really given a fair shot at Button to win the championship. Maybe this would explain Button flip flopping in his statements? :)

[mstillhere]

Yep!! Ferrari is the only honest team fighting for the championship.

No one has claimed that. The claim is that everybody is doing "it" instead.

[mstillhere]

What makes team in procrastination deciding the tactic, they can't control external factors as anything still can happen in the next two races. In case Vettel is to race in his capacity supporting Webber, we never know that Webber can finish and win over Alonso. The concrete tactic perhaps will be decided after Brazil.

At the moment they may see their two drivers still have the same opportunity. Last year Vettel outplayed Webber significantly, while before being teammated with Vettel except 2007 Webber was also a teammate killer. It doesn't sem easy to signify any of them have to support another one.

In Brazil both of them will race to the utmost to score as much points as possible. Team will take the risk of it, evaluating it, and may play a backing-up role in the last round.

RB is in trouble. Especially with the engines left available. Vettel's engine, the that blew up (do we know why btw?) was his 8th and we all know Webber used his 8th engine as well. So, it looks like Vettel might suffer a penalty for using a 9th engine. As far Webber's engine? Did it survive the crash undamaged? I guess some kind of "funny stuff" might have to be put in place.

[mstillhere]

Anyway, if Red Bull wants to win the WDC, I think that they should tell Vettel to let Webber in front. If Vettel leads a RBR 1-2 with Alonso in third in Interlagos, Alonso will only need another third place to win the championship in Abu Dhabi.

That said, I think that a RBR 1-2 is the most likely scenario in Interlagos, because the pecking order at the time seems to be RBR > Ferrari > McLaren.

As long as Professor Alonso would be 3rd, I don't see anything wrong with that. :)

[mstillhere]

Agree.

It would be hard for Red Bull to see a title potentially slipping away and not choosing to employ team orders.

Red Bull need to win this title and should do what ever they need to to win it. As Ferrari have.

If they (Webber & Red Bull) finish 1 point behind Alonso Ferrari how many people in years to come will remember that Red Bull were fair to their drivers and Ferrari weren't. All people will remember is Alonso being World Champion.

Team orders at this stage are a no brainer.

For me rule should be altered as to pre 2002.

What am I hearing??? The "T" word?? Oh my, my. I am shocked.

BTW Horner has spoken about this possinbility, and said no to team orders: http://www.itv-f1.com/news_article.aspx?id=49528. We are not suggesting he is not telling the truth in this article, are we?

[mstillhere]

I knew all along. The whole team order "outrage" was only anger directed atb Ferraria and Alonso for winning in Germany. Now that RB and MC might do it, everybody seems sooooooooooooooo cool with. Some of you guys sound like it's the most natural thing to do.....as long as it's your team benefiting from it. But guess what? It might be just a hair too late.

[555-04Q2]

I knew all along. The whole team order "outrage" was only anger directed atb Ferraria and Alonso for winning in Germany. Now that RB and MC might do it, everybody seems sooooooooooooooo cool with. Some of you guys sound like it's the most natural thing to do.....as long as it's your team benefiting from it. But guess what? It might be just a hair too late.

Ain't it fun being a Ferrari supporter :?: I love being one as it exposes all the poopalls around us :D

[Valve Bounce]

No one has claimed that. The claim is that everybody is doing "it" instead.

You are quite wrong - Valve Bounce has claimed it!!

[ArrowsFA1]

I knew all along. The whole team order "outrage" was only anger directed atb Ferraria and Alonso for winning in Germany. Now that RB and MC might do it, everybody seems sooooooooooooooo cool with. Some of you guys sound like it's the most natural thing to do.....as long as it's your team benefiting from it. But guess what? It might be just a hair too late.
Timing is the issue, not the team involved.

Sorry to drag it up again but the whole 'team orders' thing came about because a team employed them at the sixth race of the season back in 2002 after one of their drivers had won four of the first five races. They were perfectly entitled to do as they pleased, but it was felt by many that the decision taken was 1) far too early in the season and 2) totally unnecessary.

Since then all teams have been treading on egg-shells when it comes to managing their drivers but the FIA have rarely used their own poorly conceived rule.

The reason they did in Germany this year, IMHO, was the timing and the fact that (like Austria) the order was made so publicly obvious. Although Germany was the 11th race of the season, and one Ferrari driver was effectively out of the title race already, there were still eight races to go and a lot could still change.

Now, with just two races to go, the general feeling seems to be that all teams would be justified in employing team orders. The irony is that, of the teams involved, only one has just one driver in contention for the WDC :crazy:

[Tazio]

http://www.formula1.com/wi/597x478/sutton/2010/d10kor1742.jpg

http://www.formula1.com/wi/597x478/sutton/2010/d10kor1741.jpg

http://www.formula1.com/wi/597x478/sutton/2010/d10kor1746.jpg

http://www.formula1.com/wi/597x478/sutton/2010/d10kor1747.jpg

http://www.formula1.com/wi/597x478/sutton/2010/d10kor1749.jpg

[fandango]

Domenicalli's response to Horner's opinion that Alonso winning the title by less than seven points would make him an unworthy champion, or words to that effect.

Domenicalli: “When you consider the car Red Bull have had this year, in my eyes it’s a miracle that we are fighting for this title at all. If we had that advantage, the championship would be decided already.”

Class.

From http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2010/11/whitmarsh-careful-not-to-detract-from-f1-title-prestige/

[Ent]

It's interesting to see how different news services twist stories to make news.

Sydney Morning Herald (http://www.smh.com.au/sport/motorsport/mark-webber-says-red-bull-favour-teammate-sebastian-vettel-20101105-17gd8.html) story:


Red Bull have denied all season that they favour Vettel, but, when asked if his team was behind his younger teammate, Webber told The Guardian: "F---ing obvious, isn't it? Of course.

"When young, new charges come on to the block that's where the emotion is. That's the way it is.

"That is absolutely fine because I have had a great opportunity with a great car to do some great things this year. I've got favourites in life. Favourite people I like to be with. That is human nature."

And how it's reported in the F1 media (http://www.motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=393364&FS=F1):


But no less dramatic were the goings on at Red Bull, with Mark Webber admitting it is "f***ing obvious" that team bosses are more emotionally supportive of his teammate Sebastian Vettel.

...

Team boss Christian Horner responded by saying Webber's comments about inequality will not have gone down well among the team ranks.

"I think the members of the team would be greatly hurt to see what Mark has said, if he has said that."

Vettel was reluctant to comment specifically on the developing affair, but made clear the fact that the goings-on at Red Bull this year mean he and Webber will never be friends.

"Do I think there is any conspiracy in the air? No, it's the last thing I think about," said the German.

"Developing affair" my foot. A pretty reasonable comment about having one driver at the start of his career being favoured over one at the end of his becomes an attack on the team... No wonder most F1 drivers have learned the art of speaking without really saying anything at all.

[Big Ben]

Domenicalli's response to Horner's opinion that Alonso winning the title by less than seven points would make him an unworthy champion, or words to that effect.

Domenicalli: “When you consider the car Red Bull have had this year, in my eyes it’s a miracle that we are fighting for this title at all. If we had that advantage, the championship would be decided already.”

Class.

From http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2010/11/whitmarsh-careful-not-to-detract-from-f1-title-prestige/

Indeed. A classy punch in the face of that incompetent.

[Daika]

Red Bull is the worst team in 2010. Really with that car they should have the title somewhere in july. I think their drivers aren't that good. I'm sure Hamilton, Alonso and Schumacher (before 2006) would have it in their bag.

[ioan]

Indeed. A classy punch in the face of that incompetent.

Because Domenicali is more competent?! Maybe at issuing team orders! No wait that was another crappy showing by him. :rotflmao:

[Big Ben]

Because Domenicali is more competent?! Maybe at issuing team orders! No wait that was another crappy showing by him. :rotflmao:

the move that put ferrari's driver 11 points ahead instead of 4 is a sign of incompetency to you? it´s not nice to see feelings clouding one´s judgement in such a severe way. RBR are still lucky they don't have you at the helm :rotflmao:

[ioan]

the move that put ferrari's driver 11 points ahead instead of 4 is a sign of incompetency to you?

I guess it depends on one's bias if lying to the fans is a competent move or not! :\

How about the whole 2008 season debacle with endless strategy errors? Did it look competent to you?!

[Big Ben]

I guess it depends on one's bias if lying to the fans is a competent move or not! :\

How about the whole 2008 season debacle with endless strategy errors? Did it look competent to you?!

yeah... today's Ferrari is way below the moral level of Papa Jean's Ferrari :rolleyes:

[ioan]

yeah... today's Ferrari is way below the moral level of Papa Jean's Ferrari :rolleyes:

Exactly.

[ShiftingGears]

There were team orders in Ferrari even during the ban - no big deal. Will be interesting to see if RBR use team orders in Brazil + Abu Dhabi.

[wattoroos]

when it happened in germany, a lot of teams were upset but now RB and Mclaren dont seem to be hammering it as much now as both these teams might be considering team orders but for that to happen button needs to find the form he had earlier in the year

[fandango]

If I were Vettel I'd agree to move over for Webber on condition that Webber does the same if it's Webber first, Vettel second, and Alonso goes out of the race.

So I imagine that Red Bull are expecting to be in same situation next week as in Brazil: Out in front, with the decision as to who wins the WDC depending on Alonso's position. Apart from the risk of banking on such a scenario, and apart from charging them with hypocrisy as some would, what will the FIA do if it happens that Vettel moves over for Webber? They can't just fine them, but they can't really just take the WDC off them either, for the sake of the sport.

[steveaki13]

Wow that would be amazing.

Surely though Webber would agree then just say I will let him through on the last lap.

Then win the race be world champion, stick two fingers up at Red Bull say " Not bad for a number Two driver" and walk off into the sunset and retire.

[Duchess]

I think at this point it all comes down to how badly Red Bull want to beat Fernando Alonso and how badly they want to get the Drivers' Championship. If they want it bad, then they need to inform Vettel and Webber that they should be ready to make some sacrifices if necessary.

[mstillhere]

Because Domenicali is more competent?! Maybe at issuing team orders! No wait that was another crappy showing by him. :rotflmao:

I know you are very much against team orders. but.....would you make "a little" exeption for the last race?

[Big Ben]

Exactly.

Is this the first record of Ioan admitting JT's a crook?

[Big Ben]

I got the impression he was agreeing with your statement that todays "Ferrari is way below the moral level" of the period under Jean Todt. Don't shoot the messenger here, as I don't really have an opinion on this.. :p

no... the quote shows he agrees with all my message, including the sarcastic tone that I was so kind to emphasize with the 'rolling eyes' face and which he didn´t leave out... deep down he knows I'm right... that's the explanation

[schmenke]

...


:D

file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/peter.vesivalo/My%20Documents/d10kor1741LG.JPG

[schmenke]

...

:D

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1431/5158556493_84294170c5.jpg

[ioan]

I got the impression he was agreeing with your statement that todays "Ferrari is way below the moral level" of the period under Jean Todt. Don't shoot the messenger here, as I don't really have an opinion on this.. :p

You're completely right, eu missed the point, again. ;)


Who knows what ioan thinks...

Me. :p