Loebs record 7.....beatable?

[alexlake]

So what do you guys think? Do you think that this record will be beaten?.

For me I think that wrc is on the up again, and there are more drivers now that could win the title than 4-5 years ago. Mikko, JML, Ogier, are all drivers that could very realistically win next years title, and go onto win more in the future. And Loeb himself could make it 8.

what you reckon?

(personally, although I am a Loeb fan, wouldnt mind seeing JML or Ogier win next year, both so talented and fast)

[N.O.T]

everything is possible....i do not see a driver that could be so dominant from the current ones though. No matter how many Ogier achieved in so little time i think he can be challenged easier than Loeb...

[tmx]

The numbers in his record doesn't mean anything to me.

Walter Röhrl won Monte for four different manufacturers. Kankkunen won driver titles in 3 different cars racing against multiple other world champions.

Do you think Loeb is going to make his own private team and go on to win a WRC round? Answer: no.
Will he retired before there is real competition that is capable of beating him to keep his records shiny? Probably yes.

[Mintexmemory]

Congratulations to SL. No I don't think anyone will equal this as I don't think a single dominance of car / driver combination for so long a time is likely to arise again. For the same reason I can't see Schumacher's F1 record being beaten

[ridder]

I think Loeb will take 1-2 titles more.
Over time (40+ years if some "WRC" runs that long), it's surely beatable. But in next 10 years, I don't think it is. Now hopefully some more factories join which will also prevent these kinds of records.

Loeb is a great driver, as he himself says he's "as quick as the others on gravel but faster on tarmac". This tarmac dominance has helped him when it was close (vs Hirvonen last year, Gronholm in 2007 and 2006). In 2003 the off in Corsica from first place lost him the title.

I believe that if everyone was in same car on tarmac he would be the fastest driver, that said everyone is not in the same car and if over time there were other car/driver combinations which were a bit faster on tarmac he would have had problems with this triumph card of his. As late as 2002 we had Pannizi/206WRC combo which was unbeatable on tarmac but bad on gravel so it took points off title contenders. Loeb was beaten on tarmac only 2 times since 2003, in 2004 Corsica and Spain. In Corsica he finished 2 minutes! behind Martin and in Spain he damaged his oil sump when cutting the corner too much when fighting within seconds with Martin for first place. On gravel that year he was not the fastest and mostly retirements of others made him win the title.
Even as late as 2006, Gronholm (not exactly a tarmac specialist) was leading over Loeb in Spain when his new Focus broke down.


So in my opinion if there were more manufacturers/drivers combinations between years 2005-2010 competitive on tarmac, Loeb would not have claimed all of the 5 titles in that period.

[alexlake]

In a way its good if it does not get beaten, that would probably mean the competition has been tougher.

Loeb is 'as good on gravel, better on tarmac', but he has more than that. He basically built the C4 himself (you know what I mean) he is good with tyres, he does have the whole rally package. As Julian porter says on wrc podcasts, 'he thinks his way through a rally better than anyone'. Yes he has been helped by team orders, sordo etc, but ford have done tactics, and its always gone on, and always will.

Looking at the results this year, loeb, mikko, ogier, jml have all won rallies, and 2 still to go (sordo and petter?!!). Its on its way up, the futures bright :D

[N.O.T]

The numbers in his record doesn't mean anything to me.

Walter Röhrl won Monte for four different manufacturers. Kankkunen won driver titles in 3 different cars racing against multiple other world champions.

Do you think Loeb is going to make his own private team and go on to win a WRC round? Answer: no.
Will he retired before there is real competition that is capable of beating him to keep his records shiny? Probably yes.

Mcare
Sainz
Makinen
Gronholm
Burns
Latvala
Hirvonen

were not real competition ?

Kankunnen was useless on Tarmac
Rohrl was a scared boy and never did finland because his pants would get dirty.....

[alexlake]

[quote="tmx"]
Do you think Loeb is going to make his own private team and go on to win a WRC round? Answer: no.
[quote]

why would he want to set up his own team, at his age, with what he has won. It could ruin all he has built up, and what would he really gain from it?

[Francis44]

First off all Congrats to Loeb and Elena.

For me Loeb is the prototype of a real rally driver, he does not act like a star and he isn't afraid to talk to fans whenever asked to, plus he is super quick on all surfaces.

I guess some people wont miss him when he retires, but I sure will, and I think I will have to wait many years to see someone drive like him, and I dont care about what others say, true is that all Finns thought they were the only ones capable of driving well on World Championship level, and this gentleman from France out of nowhere with few experience on a Saxo made them crumble.

[ste898]

The numbers in his record doesn't mean anything to me.

Walter Röhrl won Monte for four different manufacturers. Kankkunen won driver titles in 3 different cars racing against multiple other world champions.

Do you think Loeb is going to make his own private team and go on to win a WRC round? Answer: no.
Will he retired before there is real competition that is capable of beating him to keep his records shiny? Probably yes.

Here here someone that speaks some sense

At last it is great too see a post that says the truth

[Francis44]

I think some of you just dont want to admit it.

If Loeb had been running in Kankunnen time he would have beat him and whoever driver standarts nowadays are much higher.

[Barreis]

Kankkunen in these ages with full season should do better then Raikonen, Wilson, Villagra, Block.. :)

[ste898]

Mcare
Sainz
Makinen
Gronholm
Burns
Latvala
Hirvonen

were not real competition ?

Kankunnen was useless on Tarmac
Rohrl was a scared boy and never did finland because his pants would get dirty.....

Calling a true legend useless and a driver of Rohrl's talent a scared boy how dare you......you relly do not have a clue!!!!

[N.O.T]

Calling a true legend useless and a driver of Rohrl's talent a scared boy how dare you......you relly do not have a clue!!!!

well

Kannkunen was useless on tarmac

and ROrhl said himself that was scared of finland....

so...

[Macd]

Scared of Finland in an Audi Quattro though. Loeb would sh*t himself in that car.

[Josti]

well

Kannkunen was useless on tarmac

and ROrhl said himself that was scared of finland....

so...

Indeed, Röhrl was very selective in his rounds, but they didn't need to drive every round in those times anyway. NOT, Look at the Portugal '85 onboard and say he's a "scared boy" again.

I remember Kankkunen clinched his '93 world title on asphalt and lead Catalunya in '95, although with an illegal car. Not great on tarmac, but decent (not useless however, that's just nonsense).

On topic: No, I don't think, or more so I don't hope, anyone will beat his record.

[N.O.T]

Scared of Finland in an Audi Quattro though. Loeb would sh*t himself in that car.

given the fact that the citroen is around 2 seconds/km faster than the audi i guess he had worse....

[Macd]

given the fact that the citroen is around 2 seconds/km faster than the audi i guess he had worse....

But that's down to suspension and tyres. Listen to Kankkunen's interview during rally Finland this year, he compares the power of WRC to Group B as "nothing special" Audi had 600 + bhp and could do 0-100km/h in 2 seconds. far quicker in a straight line than WRC.

[N.O.T]

Indeed, Röhrl was very selective in his rounds, but they didn't need to drive every round in those times anyway. NOT, Look at the Portugal '85 onboard and say he's a "scared boy" again.

I remember Kankkunen clinched his '93 world title on asphalt and lead Catalunya in '95, although with an illegal car. Not great on tarmac, but decent (not useless however, that's just nonsense).

On topic: No, I don't think, or more so I don't hope, anyone will beat his record.

things evolve thats my point....

the cars get better and the drivers get better...

all those romantic people who like the Group B and rant all day about them and their overweight undertrained drivers should lock themselves in a basement and let the rest of the world evolve....

YES Loeb is the greatest of them all
NO the drivers of the past have nothing on any driver of today let alone Loeb.

all you 40-50-60 year olds who "lived" the golden era of Group B should focus to solve your middle age crisis in another way than dishing the new era.

[Lousada]

But that's down to suspension and tyres. Listen to Kankkunen's interview during rally Finland this year, he compares the power of WRC to Group B as "nothing special" Audi had 600 + bhp and could do 0-100km/h in 2 seconds. far quicker in a straight line than WRC.

Straight lines are not scary, it's the corners that do it. Present day WRC-cars corner much faster than Group B cars.
If power was all important than dragracers would be the best drivers in the world.

[Macd]

Straight lines are not scary, it's the corners that do it. Present day WRC-cars corner much faster than Group B cars.
If power was all important than dragracers would be the best drivers in the world.

Trying to put down 600+ hp mid corner I would bet is rather scary.

[Josti]

things evolve thats my point....

Ok, shame your points always have to come across so disrespectful though. I think it also shows a lack of knowledge and consideration.

[GigiGalliNo1]

I think Loeb will take 1-2 titles more.
Over time (40+ years if some "WRC" runs that long), it's surely beatable. But in next 10 years, I don't think it is. Now hopefully some more factories join which will also prevent these kinds of records.

---

So in my opinion if there were more manufacturers/drivers combinations between years 2005-2010 competitive on tarmac, Loeb would not have claimed all of the 5 titles in that period.

Did anyone think back then that someone would beat Tommi Makinen's four world titles? I don't think so.

Five years after Makinen's consecutive 4 crowns, Loeb began to win. So what difference will it make if it's 10 years or 5 years - so Ogier or Sordo or Hirvonen to begin being World Champion.

Nothing is predictable until it starts to happen.

[WRCfan]

The man is talented there is no doubt about it. It does not matter how many people here try and tell others 'you can't pit the drivers of old with the drivers of today'. Everyone is entitled to an opinion and no one on this board has any influence on my opinion no matter how many stats and figures you present.

I will always hold Sainz in higher regard than Loeb. It is my thinking and I know that the next person is more than likely to think totally different.

Only time will tell although we are lucky to have witnessed it live (many of us) as the dominance of Loeb will be talked about for some time to come.

[bowler]

Without any doubt Loeb is the best of the current drivers, and he has set a record that will be very hard to better.

Is he the best of all time? It is something that can never be measured as the circumstances in the past are different to the circumstances today.

I do not believe that anyone can adequately compare champions of different times with champions of another time.

Does that detract from Loeb? Absolutely not, and he is a true Champion of this day who is so much better than any other entrant in this years championship. And it is he who is better, not the others who are poor. He is head and shoulders above the rest, and only Ogier is approaching his level.

Congratulations to him and Daniel for a Champion season.

[Tumbo]

Did anyone think back then that someone would beat Tommi Makinen's four world titles? I don't think so.


Must agree here - there were so many discussions in the rallying press back then about just how strong the domination of Makinen and Mitsubishi was during that period that it would be yrs before we saw anyone come even close to emmulating that feat.

What I find most interesting however, is the lack of discussion about Loeb being a true 'one make man' who has, like Makinen w/ Mitsubishi, built a team around him, with a strong no.2 (Sordo for all his faults can still knock out the podiums and maintain consistency) and a car specifically designed for his driving style. makinen coped flak for yrs over his loyalty to Mitsu and then managed to successfully move over to Subaru where even though he only achieved 1 win pulled of podiums and showed that even toward the end of his career he still had speed..........just interesting to see the lack of comment in this regard when considering Loeb

[olschl]

One make or not, WRC will likely never see a 7+ times world champion, much less 7 years in a row, any time soon. So many factors came together to provide Seb with the domination he has exhibited over most of the last decade, the worldwide economic downturn playing the biggest part. That being said, he is a man without equal when it comes to car control and has made the most of the opportunities put in front of him. Watching him in France this weekend, I can only feel pity for the other drivers of his era as they literally have no chance whatsoever. I am not a Citroen or Loeb fan myself but I do appreciate and respect what he has done. Given the rules changes coming next year, I feel we are in for very exciting times over the next 5 years and look forward to much more parity in the racing.

[cali]

One make or not, WRC will likely never see a 7+ times world champion, much less 7 years in a row, any time soon. So many factors came together to provide Seb with the domination he has exhibited over most of the last decade, the worldwide economic downturn playing the biggest part. That being said, he is a man without equal when it comes to car control and has made the most of the opportunities put in front of him. Watching him in France this weekend, I can only feel pity for the other drivers of his era as they literally have no chance whatsoever. I am not a Citroen or Loeb fan myself but I do appreciate and respect what he has done. Given the rules changes coming next year, I feel we are in for very exciting times over the next 5 years and look forward to much more parity in the racing.

Well said :)

[GigiGalliNo1]

Well said :)

amen.

[ridder]

.......

I do not believe that anyone can adequately compare champions of different times with champions of another time.
.....

... He is head and shoulders above the rest, and only Ogier is approaching his level.
.....

The first part imo denies the second part. The second part is flawed in the same way as NOTs argument of Loeb beating "older" champions:


Mcare
Sainz
Makinen
....
Burns
....
....

were not real competition ?


If say next year Ogier wins title over Loeb, you can't say he's better. You can't even say that if he wins 7 titles in a row and one of them is over Loeb.

One is 10 years older than the other, you can say what you want but a rally driver doesn't have same speed/form during his whole career.

So you can't say Loeb has beaten McRae, Sainz and Makinen who were all nearing the end of their careers.
I hope mentioning Burns was just a mistake..... Burns was ahead of Loeb in WRC2003 until October. In start of november the brain tumor made him loose consciousness, so it's quite certain that he was not 100% fit in October either.

[bowler]

The first part imo denies the second part. The second part is flawed in the same way as NOTs argument of Loeb beating "older" champions:


to clarify:

He is head and shoulders above the current drivers in the championship.
No reference intended to previous drivers.

[Brother John]

The numbers in his record doesn't mean anything to me.

Walter Röhrl won Monte for four different manufacturers. Kankkunen won driver titles in 3 different cars racing against multiple other world champions.

Do you think Loeb is going to make his own private team and go on to win a WRC round? Answer: no.
Will he retired before there is real competition that is capable of beating him to keep his records shiny? Probably yes.

This was the post on the forum this year. :up: I don´t want to see someone who will be a 7+ times world champion in the future just like Loeb.
The last 7 WRC years we saw,were nevertheless for me (in 30 years). The most of annoying years I have ever seen.
I will continue with going to wrc rallys but don´t want to see always the same winner. :s mokin:

[pino]

This was the post on the forum this year. :up: I don´t want to see someone who will be a 7+ times world champion in the future just like Loeb.
The last 7 WRC years we saw,were nevertheless for me (in 30 years). The most of annoying years I have ever seen.
I will continue with going to wrc rallys but don´t want to see always the same winner. :s mokin:

Yours is the post of the year ;)

[Koz]

Mcare
Sainz
Makinen
Gronholm
Burns
Latvala
Hirvonen

were not real competition ?

Kankunnen was useless on Tarmac
Rohrl was a scared boy and never did finland because his pants would get dirty.....

I don't recall Seb winning the c'ship when Makinen, Burns or Mcrae were around.
Sainz was at the end of his career.

Seb's real opponents have been Solberg and Gronholm (both were ruined by VERY bad cars, the 307 and the silly subaroooooo) and in the same cars both have proven better than the great Hirvonen who is nothing but a glorified no.2 and never will be and Latvala... He has done well this year, last year but really was he troubling Loeb last year?

[bluuford]

I admire his talent and his consistency and sometimes it is really annoying indeed. There is however one thing.
He is 7 times world champion and has competed against quite good opposition (if you do not count the last couple of years) but this year, there is another Seb, who just came and won many rallies against Loeb. He does not have much experience but still.. he was able to better Loeb. There is high possibility that next year we have another Seb winning the title and Loeb cannot leave the sport unbeaten. There are only 3 tarmac rallies in next season and one of them is on mixed surface. Ogier, like we know is not very good in tarmac and such a low number of tarmac rallies is good for him. Also Latvala has improved a lot and his rating for next year championship in my eyes has increased significantly.

Two weeks ago I spectated a rally and two old former drivers were talking about one pilot that just passed us: "He is getting old, I can tell it from my own experience that as the age came, I am more and more thinking about the risks I take and etc..." And it is clearly visible in case of Loeb. In case of very difficult roadconditions he is much, much slower than he was a couple of years ago.
So, it is highly likely that title nr 7 will be his last.

[bluuford]

Mcare
Sainz
Makinen
Gronholm
Burns
Latvala
Hirvonen

were not real competition ?

Kankunnen was useless on Tarmac
Rohrl was a scared boy and never did finland because his pants would get dirty.....

A few clarifications:
Mäkinen left the sport in 2003, when Loeb was not yet a champion;
Burns also left the sport before the end of 2003. RIP
Sainz left in 2004 when he was already 42 years old!
I am agree that Grönholm was true champion and they had really dense fights, but Hirvonen and Latvala does not deserve to be on that list.. yet :-)

[N.O.T]

even before he became champion Loeb managed to beat all of these guys in a very inferior and inexperienced team. i am refering to rally wins and positions not championships.

[bluuford]

even before he became champion Loeb managed to beat all of these guys in a very inferior and inexperienced team. i am refering to rally wins and positions not championships.

True

[ridder]

even before he became champion Loeb managed to beat all of these guys in a very inferior and inexperienced team. i am refering to rally wins and positions not championships.

You mean like 2002 (and partly 2003) when he won a few tarmac rallies, while he was miles behind on others? First time Loeb won a non-tarmac rally was 2004 Sweden. Oh yes and half of the guys listed had retired by then. (Note how NOT writes "beat all of these guys").

Let's turn that logic around, Latvala has not become a champion yet, but he has already beaten Loeb while in an inferior team. Only on gravel and only on a few rallies, but hey he has beaten him just like Loeb beat "all" in 2002/2003.

[cali]

You mean like 2002 (and partly 2003) when he won a few tarmac rallies, while he was miles behind on others? First time Loeb won a non-tarmac rally was 2004 Sweden. Oh yes and half of the guys listed had retired by then. (Note how NOT writes "beat all of these guys").

Let's turn that logic around, Latvala has not become a champion yet, but he has already beaten Loeb while in an inferior team. Only on gravel and only on a few rallies, but hey he has beaten him just like Loeb beat "all" in 2002/2003.
You cannot deny the fact that JML is problably one of the fastest in his generation, so beating Loeb is a good arquement and beating The King is a very-very good achievement. Not so many drivers have achieved that, especially in the last 7 years. Our children will problably speak about current drivers as the "golden generation" - times change, but numbers will remain the same :) You can come up with so many excuses, but you can never rule out Seb's record. Everything else is irrelevant.

And NO, I'm not a Loeb fan! He is not my favourite driver, problably never will be, but I'll respect him and his achievements very highly.
No matter what I think about Loeb (irrelevant), he is the best driver of all times (look at his record)!

Now you guys can come up with another excuses of him driving inferior car, lack of talent during his era, driving only in one team, got beaten few times by Bosse, Ogier, Mikko and JML etc. Even if he would have won all of his rallys, someone can find excuses of Loeb NOT being the best driver .... :D

[navtheace]

Loeb is comparable to Michael Schumacher being dominant in F1.

[Fide]

Loeb is comparable to Michael Schumacher being dominant in F1.

FULLY agree with you............... BORING !!

[Mihai]

Rohrl was a scared boy and never did finland because his pants would get dirty.....

Just for the record: Rohrl had sun-sized b@lls and still has. He probably chose not to do Rally Finland because of his respect for the Flying Finns, not to mention his team's commercial interest in lining up in Finland. Besides that, RF in the 1980s was a locals' event, very few non-Scandinavian reaching the overall podium these days. It was a shock when Sainz won it in 1990, but the GT-Four was supreme that year.

[ste898]

given the fact that the citroen is around 2 seconds/km faster than the audi i guess he had worse....

What utter bull****!!!!!!

[ste898]

things evolve thats my point....

the cars get better and the drivers get better...

all those romantic people who like the Group B and rant all day about them and their overweight undertrained drivers should lock themselves in a basement and let the rest of the world evolve....

YES Loeb is the greatest of them all
NO the drivers of the past have nothing on any driver of today let alone Loeb.

all you 40-50-60 year olds who "lived" the golden era of Group B should focus to solve your middle age crisis in another way than dishing the new era.

My god that is the biggest pile of ****e I have ever read on any forum

What planet are you living on

Group B was the most amazing cars witrh the most amazing drivers that drove days and nights not like the pussies of today 6 stages and they are tired pure wimps they are

The cars drive thamselves just about now!!!!

Get a grip on real life and admit tou are talking crap

[jens]

Beatable? Well, 7 titles as an amount is quite a lot, sooo... nothing can of course be totally ruled out, but achieving something like that is a really rare case and it may take quite some time before we see something like that again. And as mentioned in this thread, winning that much also needs a few coincidences to come together, like the depth of the rest of the competition and also consistent performance of your own team. By that I mean that Loeb has never been forced to leave Citroen, although they almost pulled out of WRC in 2006. Had Citroen decisively pulled out at one point and Loeb had been forced to join Subaru for instance in their years of struggle, results could be a bit different.

But in any case the achievement itself - 7 titles and 60 wins - is quite incredible. Congrats! :up:

[N.O.T]

My god that is the biggest pile of ****e I have ever read on any forum

What planet are you living on

Group B was the most amazing cars witrh the most amazing drivers that drove days and nights not like the pussies of today 6 stages and they are tired pure wimps they are

The cars drive thamselves just about now!!!!

Get a grip on real life and admit tou are talking crap

ok back to your cave now...

[MrJan]

I can't believe that there are 'rally fans' who belittle Loeb's acheivements. He may not have always had the strongest competition but that doesn't alter the fact that he rarely crashes and clearly has amazing car control. I guarantee that any past driver would happily give Seb a huge amount of credit.

Would he have had a tougher time against some of the greats? No doubt about it. Does that make him a lesser driver? Does it bollocks. Loeb bashers are idiots IMO, people that obviously don't understand how good a rally driver he is.

[MrJan]

Loeb is comparable to Michael Schumacher being dominant in F1.

And Rossi in MotoGP? I agree, all three are obviously at the absolute pinnacle of their sport and will always be up for consideration in the top 5 of their respective sports.

[OldF]

JBesides that, RF in the 1980s was a locals' event, very few non-Scandinavian reaching the overall podium these days. It was a shock when Sainz won it in 1990, but the GT-Four was supreme that year.

I remember Sainz in NORF back in 1988 when he was 6th with the RWD Ford Sierra Cosworth. That was considered an amazing result from a driver from southern Europe. He was also very popular among the Finnish spectators from there on. In 1989 he was third and finally won NORF in 1990. So there have been also some others fast learners except Seb.

[m.lowe]

I don't think it will be beaten and even if it was possible who could acheive what Sebastien has done with and for Citroen.
While watching thelast Colin McRae dvd from Duke the other day Colin said even though he found it difficult to settle there they where by far the best team that where around.

Whether its Group 4, Group B, Group A, WRC there is a driver in each that where the best in their time and Sebastien is the best in WRC and that cannot be argued.
Rallying is like life it evolves and if the car are less aggressive to drive like the old school stuff then so what? they still provide spectacle to us fans along the side of the stages.

Its a shame that the championship was down to two manufactures plus the satelite teams thats life, but with Mini and The Fiesta and the DS3 and hopefully the VW and possibly more for the future then it will be good again

[OldF]

My god that is the biggest pile of ****e I have ever read on any forum

What planet are you living on

Group B was the most amazing cars witrh the most amazing drivers that drove days and nights not like the pussies of today 6 stages and they are tired pure wimps they are

The cars drive thamselves just about now!!!!

Get a grip on real life and admit tou are talking crap

I don’t like this kind of discussions but I agree with you. The B group cars had lot of power but the suspension wasn’t even near the suspension of today’s “joy-stick” cars.

One guy that I think could have beat Sebastan Loeb on tarmac if they’re would have drive in the same era was Henri Toivonen.

[m.lowe]

Here's one for the Loeb haters and the Group B lovers
Markku Alen, Lancia built a team around him with the amount of years he was with them
Never won a championship, but won a lot of rallies.
He was / is a legend but I bet people don't slag him off for not achieving on what he was capable of with all the years in the WRC

[Josti]

I don't get why this thread got as far as Loeb vs Group B? That doesn't make any sense. But it's always the same with Loeb threads, someone says something about the glorious past, NOT (most of the time) reacts in an inconsiderate way about it and there you go... yadayadayada.

I love rallying, I love the history, I love the present (generally), but most important I just love the sport. Loeb is the present king, but not over 37 years of precious WRC history. imo.

[Frozzy]

i dont think loebs Records will be beaten any time soon Sure he may not be the most informative interviewee like solberg or gromholm but he does seem like a very genuine gentleman and never seems to "blow his own trumpet" about the fact he has broken so many records. Yes you can argue he has never experienced any other rally car but that is a moot point when you consider that trying to compare the C4 is pointless since the cars have changed so much in the years.

[m.lowe]

Totally agree with you Josti and Frozzy
He may of not experienced any other WR car but whats the point when he has the best car

[Tumbo]

even before he became champion Loeb managed to beat all of these guys in a very inferior and inexperienced team. i am refering to rally wins and positions not championships.

discounting the whole Loeb factor for a second here to say that Citroen were an inexperienced team and were inferior is to do a disservice to the team and the development that went into the Xsara - this was a car which began as a formula 2 car; became the only formula 2 car to win a WRC rally outright (Bugalski twice in 99) and had a very long development phase through the French tarmac championship.

Citroen were incredibly well prepared for their wrc season debut and were the only team in recent time who were honestly tipped for rallying wins straight out of the bag (remember the partial entry 2002 season) and clearly chose a solid, dependable and talented driver to take them forward.

[Woodeye]

I don't get why this thread got as far as Loeb vs Group B? That doesn't make any sense. But it's always the same with Loeb threads, someone says something about the glorious past, NOT (most of the time) reacts in an inconsiderate way about it and there you go... yadayadayada.

I love rallying, I love the history, I love the present (generally), but most important I just love the sport. Loeb is the present king, but not over 37 years of precious WRC history. imo.

:up:

[m.lowe]

Plus the Xsara T4 was originally one of the first "regional rally cars" that where to come out for their domestic series that the FIA where allowing at the time.

[janvanvurpa]

But that's down to suspension and tyres. Listen to Kankkunen's interview during rally Finland this year, he compares the power of WRC to Group B as "nothing special" Audi had 600 + bhp and could do 0-100km/h in 2 seconds. far quicker in a straight line than WRC.



Wow after all these years the Audis rally spec power has crawled up to 600+ and dropped to 2 seconds 0-100km..

Amazing! I didn't know that..

I wonder how the hp figures and the performance just keeps increasing but all these extra hundreds of bhp as the years go by...

It couldn't be that people are just talk crap and making up things, nooooo couldn't be that...

I wonder if HP and zero to whatever times...is kind of like hair and fingernails which are claimed to keep growing once a person is dead......

[OldF]

OK, let’s go off topic for a while.

Hannu Mikkola once told in a TV interview that the Audi had at its best 580 hp.

Markku Alén drove Juha Kankkunen’s Audi S1 at Jussi Tiippana’s client event and told “Vauhdin Maailma” (Finnish motorsport magazine) that he had 620-640 hp in Olympus rally 1986. He said also that he usually asked for more power, but then he just said: “Let’s see”.

[driveace]

I think that Loeb has done really well,and Congratulations to him on his 7 wrc wins.The competition has not been as well prepared as Citroen have,and well done to them for being fast straight out of the box with each model that they have had.But Citroen and Total must have spent more money than any other team,and money rules.Maybe with less drivers to run,and more of a factory push Ford could have been a bigger challenger.But i still believe that Loeb learnt his trade in a Saxo,and beat Duval easily in that championship,by pedalling an underpowered car fast,where you have to make up time on corners and downhill sections.I believe that most of the WRC drivers,should come up through the smaller championships,than be gifted with a WRC car ,like Wilson Jnr

[WRCfan]

Do we really want Loeb's record to be beaten? That means at least 8 years of pure dominance from one driver. I think it would almost kill the sport.

Let's hope it ends up being a chance for a range of drivers to get some wins. Make it exciting again.

WRCfan

[bowler]

OK, let’s go off topic for a while.

Hannu Mikkola once told in a TV interview that the Audi had at its best 580 hp.

Markku Alén drove Juha Kankkunen’s Audi S1 at Jussi Tiippana’s client event and told “Vauhdin Maailma” (Finnish motorsport magazine) that he had 620-640 hp in Olympus rally 1986. He said also that he usually asked for more power, but then he just said: “Let’s see”.

Off Topic

It was possible to get 600 bhp out of the Lancia Group B, but not as a regular thing. Everything was dialed up to the max. The reliable figure was much lower, between 300-400.

The Audi was the same.

[janvanvurpa]

Still Off Topic--yes the confusion is I remember reading British, French, Italian, German and Swedish press all thru the GpB days and I still have a magazine when Quattro was under Gp4 rules---265bhp. But all the figures seemed to be in the high 300s....

And I seem to recall that when Audi and later Peugeot came to Pike's Peak and ran essentially rally cross spec motors---to quote Madame Mouton "It is only one stage" then in the US press---which is very typically full of s**t in all things rally---they said "for THIS event its tuned to 550 bhp"


Not so important, the old 40mm GroupA cars were soon--what 88? or 89 beating stage times with LESS bhp---more of whatever HP they had was getting to the ground.

In the end as crazy as they were some of you Older Finns ought to look up the average km/hr from 1980 to say this year to watch the little small increase when they used GpB cars, then a dip for the early GpA, then a slow incremental climb to about 5 km/hr average faster by late 90s, and I don't know if its any quicker since then.

[I am evil Homer]

CAn it be beaten? Of course. Will it...i'm not too sure. It's an extraordinary feat...and with the drivers around now (once Loeb retires) I can see Ogier, JM-L, Mikko and maybe someone else who comes through fighting and winning titles - I don't think any one of them will be as utterly dominant as the master that is Seb Loeb.

[A.F.F.]

First of all, congrats to Sebastien and Daniel.... again!!!

I'd like to say Seb's record so far will be unbeatable but I tought the same after when Tommi had won his fourth title in a row. And then came Loeb :mark:

I agree that Loeb's era has been one element of WRC's poor condition. Think about it, howunfair that is!! To be the best of your kind in a sport and folks think it's bad for the sport :mark: But when you add just a couple of manufacturers, only few real competitors, recession world wide and whoops, WRC started to feel lame and nearly dead.

All that still shouldn't steal Loeb's thunder!! He has broken almost every record there is and is among the greatest rally drivers.

However, I wouldn't mind for little change ;)

[Mihai]

I believe that as a rally fan, you cannot hate Loeb, as much as you may find his dominance annoying for the show in the WRC. I mean Loeb achieved a lot more success in this sport than anyone before him, he got married as a World Rally Champion and drove away from the church in his Xsara WRC, his daughter was born a day after his superb and title-decider win in Ireland three years ago and this year he mathematically secured his 7th title in great style on home turf in France, close to his hometown. He is still on top of his game after seven years and that is a performance by itself in any sport.

And more than that, he's a nice guy. But boy how much I hate to see him winning all the time! http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g202/gr8link/orn/00.gif