Ralf's gone crazy!! Or has he..?

[Osella]

Well, just read an apparent quote from Ralf Schumacher stating that he thinks that apart from Alonso and Raikkonen, he has 'no reason to hide behind anybody' (else).

Well, when I read the hyperbolic title (Ralf think's he's one of F1's top three) I thought he'd lost the plot, but his comments provoke a bit more thought...

Who the hell else is there!?! Fisichella? Ralf and he were pretty equal and he's never really going to go anywhere nowadays!
But then again, neither is Ralf (and I like, yes, like the guy!), by the same token (sorry Pino!), neither is Trulli, and personally I'd say Ralf and Jarno are pretty even on balance over a season.
Virtually everyone else in in the same boat(worryingly heading towards has-beens), or a rookie!

I think Ralf is completely delusional when he says Toyota's F1 title is only a matter of time (except when F1 becomes too expensive and all the manufacturers leave and Toyota wins like they did in IMSA by being the only people with a half-decent budget!).

However, Fisi is fast, no doubt, but not champion material. Wurz is no better than him, as team-mates neither were Ralf, Heidfeld, Massa or Sato. Button was slower, Barrichello's slower than Button, Kubica's no quicker than Heidfeld, Kovaleinen no quicker than Fisichella!

So, by a convoluted, and completely subjective(!) approach, the only drivers better than Ralf are, indeed, Alonso and Raikkonen.

There is a vague point to this thread, perhaps just to say two things;
Drivers change over time, and so it will be interesting in particular to see how the rookies, and Kubica and Massa perform and develop over the course of the season.
It will in all probability be a great season, hopefully very open for the drivers title and race wins.

But also, it's quite regrettable that apart from McLaren and Ferrari (excluding Hamilton, as a rookie), isn't it a shame that F1 seems a little lacking in depth this season, just as it seemed to in 1994, when the only top drivers were Michael Schumacher and Ayrton Senna?

Only time will tell whether we have a new Hakkinen in amongst the unproven drivers, and who will match their potential, and who will be the Lehto's and Alesi's of the grid.
Either way, I'm not placing any money on Ralf to be 2007 champion! ;)

[F1boat]

In my opinion David Coulthard and Rubens Barrichello have achieved more than RS and are better drivers.

[Osella]

In my opinion David Coulthard and Rubens Barrichello have achieved more than RS and are better drivers.

Achieved more, no question!
But I would rather have Ralf on a good day than Coulthard on a good day, and Barrichello's pretty anonymous most of the time, just like the other two!
Which kind of makes the point, who, exactly is coming along to push these guys?

Frentzen and probably Alesi were in F1 longer than they should have been allowed to be, I think DC, Ralf and Rubens all have another season in them, but beyond that, what is there to gain, and who exactly are drivers like Ralf going to be worried about beating?!

[Ian McC]

Bless him, I am sure he will be great in DTM :D

He isn't winning anything, apart from Employee Of The Month at Burger King ;)

[Narr]

Well Button is certainly better than Ralf now and got the better of him on some of the driver's circuits.
I agree that Fisi isn't doing much and is not WDC material but he's still better than Ralf and DC maybe a windbag (and maybe that helps in the Red Bull :) )but the Red Bull has developed better than the Toyota due to his help.

Ralf is an overpaid has been and hasn't got the skills to help Toyota forward (who has?).

[Osella]

Ralf is an overpaid has been and hasn't got the skills to help Toyota forward (who has?).

I'm not sure there's anyone at Toyota who's not an overpaid has-been ;)

[F1boat]

Achieved more, no question!
But I would rather have Ralf on a good day than Coulthard on a good day, and Barrichello's pretty anonymous most of the time, just like the other two!


Really? IMO RS was never too impressive, even while winning - good solid driver and that's all. DC had some memorable wins, like Monaco 02 or France 00. About Rubens, for me he is on par with RS - not weaker, maybe slightly better in qualifying.

[wmcot]

I would have to rate Massa as far above RS now that he is at Ferrari and has matured as a driver.

If Ralf thinks he's third, then let's see where he ends up in the WDC at the end of the year. I don't think Toyota can carry him to 3rd, but let's see how close he comes.

[raikk]

He says this to boost his confidence.. and for some reason he feels the whole world needs to hear it..Every driver that is on that grid thinks that they are the best but few actually say it..Ralf on the other hand...

[BeansBeansBeans]

Achieved more, no question!
But I would rather have Ralf on a good day than Coulthard on a good day, and Barrichello's pretty anonymous most of the time, just like the other two!

On a good day, such as Silverstone 2003, Barrichello is as good as anybody. I'm not sure I could say the same about Ralf Schumacher.

[Dave B]

Ralf is a steady enough driver, but you could count on one hand the amount of times he's ever looked like a proper racer.

His low point came at Monaco 2005 when his brother tried to pass him on the last lap, almost waking him up in the process. His comment "as far as I'm concerned the race was over" sums up his attitude to competition.

He's a safe pair of hands most of the time, but certainly not worth Toyota's millions.

[ioan]

One thing Ralf is for sure is a very very fast driver, than he has the ability and the know how to setup an F1 car as not too many of them can do it.
He isn't very consistent tough, but neither are the others but for MS and FA, and maybe FM (he is becoming more and more consistent) and KR.

So with MS out of it Ralf might be the 3rd best driver if you take everything into account.

PS: Button will need another few hundreds of races, and a some contract buy outs, till he gets Ralf's number of F1 wins!

[Garry Walker]

Ralf was only equal to Montoya, so clearly his claim is ridicolous LOL

[K-Pu]

I think Ralf is a good driver, but as someone said in this forum some time ago, he´s the personification of mediocrity.

He won some races, he can have a good weekend and achieve good results but... how many times do we see Ralf doing great things? I mean, great good things. He can score a lot of points with the proper car, he can drive a solid race but in my opinion he can´t win a WDC, no matter the team he´s driving for.

[ioan]

I think Ralf is a good driver, but as someone said in this forum some time ago, he´s the personification of mediocrity.

He won some races, he can have a good weekend and achieve good results but... how many times do we see Ralf doing great things? I mean, great good things. He can score a lot of points with the proper car, he can drive a solid race but in my opinion he can´t win a WDC, no matter the team he´s driving for.

The question is how many of them have what it takes to be WDC on the current grid? 2 maybe 3 of the known quantities!

[BeansBeansBeans]

The question is how many of them have what it takes to be WDC on the current grid?

It's difficult to say, as there are many variables. For instance, I think Fisichella could win the title, if given a car with a massive performance advantage (such as F2002, F2004 or the 1992 Williams), and an inferior team-mate. But he obviously didn't win either of the last two championships, despite being in the championship winning (though not necessarily the best) car.

It's difficult to judge.

[Bezza]

Ralf has DC-syndrome I think...although I rate DC above Ralf comfortably.

Alonso and Raikkonen and the stand-out pair, followed by a group headed by Button and comprising Barrichello, Coulthard, Fisichella and Ralfie.

[K-Pu]

It's difficult to say, as there are many variables. For instance, I think Fisichella could win the title, if given a car with a massive performance advantage (such as F2002, F2004 or the 1992 Williams), and an inferior team-mate. But he obviously didn't win either of the last two championships, despite being in the championship winning (though not necessarily the best) car.

It's difficult to judge.

With such an advantage things change... but:

Those cars were lightyears away from the rest of the grid, and with one of these, and some weaker team-mates... And not many opposition. So if you need an all-conquering car, a bad team-mate and the rest of the teams leaving you alone and you´re not a really good driver... well, I think you can´t be WDC. Too many things have to happen out there to put you at the top if you´re Ralf Schumacher.

It´s like Titanic winning 11 oscars... absolutely awful! But there were no serious competitors out there, and that is a big issue. My conclussion is: Ralf could win only if they give him the WDC, because having the best car, the worst teammate and no opposition is like giving you the title as a present.

[stevie_gerrard]

If Ralf Schumacher finishes in the Top 3 of the World Championship, i will bungee-jump off the severn bridge :p : thats how unlikely it is. Ive got more chance of racing in f1 than he has of finishing in the Top 3 :p :

[Hawkmoon]

I remember the Canadian GP of 2001. Ralf had a race long battle with Michael and came out on top. What happened to that driver?

I think Ralf has the ability to be as good as anyone out there with the possible exception of Alonso. His problem is his head. He can't seem to ever find the right mindset to carry him through a full season.

That's why he's so inconsistent. He has shown flashes of brilliance such as the purple patch he went through in mid 2003 and parts of 2001 but on the whole has been very average.

One of the biggest differences between Ralf and Michael is that Michael had the head of a world champion. Ralf? His heads someplace else.

[andreag]

I remember the Canadian GP of 2001. Ralf had a race long battle with Michael and came out on top.
I remember the Canadian GP of 2006. Ralf was absolutely lost (as usual).

After this season, when a couple of rookies and another couple of almost-rookies finish the season on top of him, he'll be totally lost (maybe he can be his brother's assistant in "Scuderia Schumi Rosso").

[ioan]

I remember the Canadian GP of 2006. Ralf was absolutely lost (as usual).

After this season, when a couple of rookies and another couple of almost-rookies finish the season on top of him, he'll be totally lost (maybe he can be his brother's assistant in "Scuderia Schumi Rosso").

I see that a thread about how RS may rank in todays F1 grid turned into a bashing party, like always!

BTW, how many drivers were that extraordinary in Montreal 2006 with a fast degrading track? (I give you a hint: MS and FA maybe).

As for the moment RS is one of the drivers with most F1 wins on the grid, yet people will rate Fisichella,under achiever in the championship winning car, and Button the one time lucky man better than Ralf.

As for the rookies better wait and see.

[andreag]

As for the rookies better wait and see.
For both, rookies and non-rookies, let's wait and see.

[ArrowsFA1]

I have never seen any hunger or desire from Ralf. He never seems sure of why he's in F1. Of course he's talented, and he has shown flashes of a winning mentality, but it's as if he doesn't know where that comes from or how to apply it consistently.

I said, when Toyota announced Jarno & Ralf as their drivers, that they were not a combination to drive the team forward, and while they're not the only factor in a comparative lack of success, they are a factor. Both can produce superb performances when everything is in their favour, but when it's not they disappear.

With a fresh batch of rookies coming into F1 Ralf seriously needs to up his performances and show that he's up there with the best, but I don't think he can or will.

[Dzeidzei]

Well, just read an apparent quote from Ralf Schumacher stating that he thinks that apart from Alonso and Raikkonen, he has 'no reason to hide behind anybody' (else).

Well, when I read the hyperbolic title (Ralf think's he's one of F1's top three) I thought he'd lost the plot, but his comments provoke a bit more thought...



A simple answer to the question raised at the topic: No. Yes would imply that he has been not-crazy before and now turned somehow different. I cannot see such a change.

:)

[jens]

Nothing is wrong with Ralf's comment. If you don't believe in yourself, then why on earth are you racing? If you ask a similar question to anyone among the F1 drivers, most of them would put themselves quite close to the top, if not to the very top. So answer to the title of the thread: if Ralf has gone crazy, then probably everyone on the grid is crazy of rating himself highly!

I think it's quite obvious that Ralf is underrated. He has been well-tested against strong team-mates and has always been at least very close. Well, no-one insists that he is among the brightest stars, but for some reason he is one of the most-criticized drivers on the grid. Maybe there is something to do with the famous name and people somehow find it weird that he is not on the same level as Michael? Sometimes it seems that people are jealous to Ralf that he earns so much (more than their favourite driver!) and therefore are trying to express their frustration. What concerns salary, then there is nothing in Ralf's fault, so I can't get, why do you criticize him that he is paid so highly - actually thickness of wallet shouldn't be your worry at all. It's team's care, how much they think a driver is worth to be paid.

People's memory is short. In seasons like 1999 and 2001 probably many people thought that Ralf is if not a Top3 driver, then surely a Top6 driver. Like Murray Walker said during 1999 Nürburgring race: "Ralf is making his elder brother proud." Or something like that. And on those days it looked that it's just a matter of time, when he will become a serious title contender. It seems that Ralf was rated higher in Williams than in Toyota as Toyota has such a low reputation. When Ralf was driving for Williams, then before every season (02-04) he was nominated as one of the title candidates and there wasn't so much speculation whether he can do it - he was driving in a competitive team and it looked obvious that he couldn't be ignored when talking about top contenders.

Interesting that you rate DC higher than RS - DC never looked that convincing at a top team than RS and he didn't look so close to his team-mate than Ralf tended to be (although Montoya probably can't be put on the same level as the Finns). It means - Ralf always looked more convincing and more "on the picture" than DC when they were driving in Williams and McLaren respectively. And if you say that Rubens can be as good as anyone "on his day", then the same can be said about Ralf, although his best races haven't been so shining and convincing than maybe Rubens's.

And finally a remark about Toyota's drivers, who are put responsible for their team's competitiveness. It looks as though as Honda and RBR are also not going to be great this season, but I haven't noticed anyone criticizing their drivers for team's mediocre car! So if Toyota drivers are responsbile for their team's form, then how come that other drivers are not responsible for their team's form? :eek:

[Garry Walker]

I have never seen any hunger or desire from Ralf. He never seems sure of why he's in F1.

Despite that, he still managed to very often beat the so-called Super Montoya in equal cars. Imagine if he had been hungry - he would have killed Montoya :D

[jens]

I think Ralf is completely delusional when he says Toyota's F1 title is only a matter of time (except when F1 becomes too expensive and all the manufacturers leave and Toyota wins like they did in IMSA by being the only people with a half-decent budget!).

Title only a matter of time? Well, I know one acquaintance, who said golden words: "It would be a miracle if Toyota won't win a title in the next 20 years!" :D So his logic is - takes what it takes, but one day they will be "there"... if they of course want to wait and participate so long. Toyota reminds me a bit of Chinese ski-team that is tried to be built up from blankness, but has a lot of potential. I'm also eager to see, what the Chinese can do in the next 10-20 years. :)

[ShiftingGears]

Yes, COMPLETELY insane :p :

[ArrowsFA1]

Imagine if he had been hungry...
But he wasn't, and he isn't (or at least doesn't appear to be).

[ioan]

Nothing is wrong with Ralf's comment. If you don't believe in yourself, then why on earth are you racing? If you ask a similar question to anyone among the F1 drivers, most of them would put themselves quite close to the top, if not to the very top. So answer to the title of the thread: if Ralf has gone crazy, then probably everyone on the grid is crazy of rating himself highly!

I think it's quite obvious that Ralf is underrated. He has been well-tested against strong team-mates and has always been at least very close. Well, no-one insists that he is among the brightest stars, but for some reason he is one of the most-criticized drivers on the grid. Maybe there is something to do with the famous name and people somehow find it weird that he is not on the same level as Michael? Sometimes it seems that people are jealous to Ralf that he earns so much (more than their favourite driver!) and therefore are trying to express their frustration. What concerns salary, then there is nothing in Ralf's fault, so I can't get, why do you criticize him that he is paid so highly - actually thickness of wallet shouldn't be your worry at all. It's team's care, how much they think a driver is worth to be paid.

People's memory is short. In seasons like 1999 and 2001 probably many people thought that Ralf is if not a Top3 driver, then surely a Top6 driver. Like Murray Walker said during 1999 Nürburgring race: "Ralf is making his elder brother proud." Or something like that. And on those days it looked that it's just a matter of time, when he will become a serious title contender. It seems that Ralf was rated higher in Williams than in Toyota as Toyota has such a low reputation. When Ralf was driving for Williams, then before every season (02-04) he was nominated as one of the title candidates and there wasn't so much speculation whether he can do it - he was driving in a competitive team and it looked obvious that he couldn't be ignored when talking about top contenders.

Interesting that you rate DC higher than RS - DC never looked that convincing at a top team than RS and he didn't look so close to his team-mate than Ralf tended to be (although Montoya probably can't be put on the same level as the Finns). It means - Ralf always looked more convincing and more "on the picture" than DC when they were driving in Williams and McLaren respectively. And if you say that Rubens can be as good as anyone "on his day", then the same can be said about Ralf, although his best races haven't been so shining and convincing than maybe Rubens's.

And finally a remark about Toyota's drivers, who are put responsible for their team's competitiveness. It looks as though as Honda and RBR are also not going to be great this season, but I haven't noticed anyone criticizing their drivers for team's mediocre car! So if Toyota drivers are responsbile for their team's form, then how come that other drivers are not responsible for their team's form? :eek:

Good points jens, you know not too many around here can judge drivers objectively. :up:

[ArrowsFA1]

And finally a remark about Toyota's drivers, who are put responsible for their team's competitiveness. It looks as though as Honda and RBR are also not going to be great this season, but I haven't noticed anyone criticizing their drivers for team's mediocre car! So if Toyota drivers are responsbile for their team's form, then how come that other drivers are not responsible for their team's form? :eek:
Of course they are all a part -just one of many - of making their own team competitive, but we're discussing Ralf.

I do agree with you that every driver needs self belief, but regardless of what has happened in the past, what makes anyone think Ralf will be able to back up his claim of being a top three driver in 2007, or in the future?

[ioan]

Of course they are all a part -just one of many - of making their own team competitive, but we're discussing Ralf.

Well I doubt that a driver can make chassis or aero improvements on his own, so let's not exaggerate.
A driver can only give feedback on setups and try to find the right setup, they do not design the cars, and we should all agree that the Toyota F1 car is less than good in chassis and aero department.
As for setup and technical feedback Ralf is one of the best out there.

[ArrowsFA1]

Well I doubt that a driver can make chassis or aero improvements on his own, so let's not exaggerate.
Exaggerate? What exactly?

As for setup and technical feedback Ralf is one of the best out there.
I'd be interested to know what this is based on. If true then it rather supports Ralf's view of himself as one of F1's top three, but then it also begs the question of why Toyota are sliding backwards.

[ioan]

I'd be interested to know what this is based on.

Quotes that I won't dig up from the years when he was at Williams. You should know as much as this.


If true then it rather supports Ralf's view of himself as one of F1's top three, but then it also begs the question of why Toyota are sliding backwards.

Maybe because Toyota changed their technical direction almost every year, changing the design philosophy every time maybe? Because no matter how we look at it if the car's basis is not good than a driver can do squat, no matter how good a driver is (i.e. MS and the 2005 Ferrari, R. Brawn said the car was simply a flawed design).

[ArrowsFA1]

Quotes that I won't dig up from the years when he was at Williams. You should know as much as this.
I genuinely have not seen that said. I do recall that Sam Michael has been a big supporter of Ralf since their days at Jordan and Williams, which may explain it. It would be good if you could back up your comment with those quotes though ;)

I agree that a change of technical director doesn't help any team, which is exactly why I said that a driver is "just one of many" parts going towards making a competitive team.

[ioan]

I genuinely have not seen that said. I do recall that Sam Michael has been a big supporter of Ralf since their days at Jordan and Williams, which may explain it. It would be good if you could back up your comment with those quotes though ;)

I have to earn a living first and than I might have time to dig up very old quotes. ;) :p :

[Geecee27]

Well the Toyota will be so far back he wont need to hide.....

[Sleeper]

However, Fisi is fast, no doubt, but not champion material. Wurz is no better than him, as team-mates neither were Ralf, Heidfeld, Massa or Sato. Button was slower, Barrichello's slower than Button, Kubica's no quicker than Heidfeld, Kovaleinen no quicker than Fisichella!



You did point out that this is all subjective but this I dont agree with in the slightest. You say Button is slower than Fisi but they were only partnered together for 1 year, in 01, when the Benetton was a pile of junk for most of the year and JB was only in his second year of F1 and having never driven a bad race car before in his carrer. I agree with what you say about Wurz (about equal to Fisi in ability), Massa seemas to be making some big improvments recently, the rookies (and I'll include Kubica in this as he's only done 6 GP) cant be compared with the established drivers and the same goes for those that have only done 1 or 2 years. Barichello definitely seems to be past it to me though.

Overall I would say that Button is the third fastest driver in F1 at the moment as he doesnt make many mistakes, and whe the car is balanced he can get everything out of it. I do have some questionmarkes over Raikkonens overall ability but his speed isnt in question, and Alonso is quite clearly the best driver out their.

[jens]

I suspect that if his name was Ralf Schwarz, he earned 2 million $ per year and he was driving for Williams (generally liked team), then people would like him a lot more.

[ioan]

I suspect that if his name was Ralf Schwarz, he earned 2 million $ per year and he was driving for Williams (generally liked team), then people would like him a lot more.

Bingo! ;)

[Sleeper]

^ :laugh:

I wouldnt be too sure of that.

[Osella]

Actually, Ralf was not disliked when he drove for Jordan, and indeed he seems popular with the engineers who have worked with him. I have read several comments over the years that he is shy-which comes across as arrogance, same could be said for Kimi...but isn't! -and that actually he is a very good guy to work with professionally and personally.

But driving for Williams, with the name Schumacher, after 1997 (when there were a few certain disagreements between Williams and the Schumacher family) didn't help his cause. Okay he could have been all 'PR offensive' but why!? He's there to race, and I don't think he cares for all the press/publicity side of F1.

As the point of the thread, all I was saying was that perhaps Ralf isn't the 3rd best driver in F1 (he himself did not claim this!), but there's really not much competition driver-wise except for the two Ferrari drivers and Alonso with regard to those who look like champion material.

I think Ralf's time (championship-wise) has long passed, but I don't think there's many drivers who he would get beaten by in equal equipment over the course of a race. Kind of like Gerhard Berger in many respects.

[100%hondafan]

ralf is good i remember a certain spa race ina jordan ;)


and him being told not to pass his teammate. when he was in 2nd place

[Sleeper]

I dont think Ralf had too good a relationship with Williams after the first couple of years because of Montoya coming in, and he really was Franks golden boy at the time, and it must of affected him because in the last couple of years there he was rather an up and down driver, had some really good races that showed why he is in F1 and some really half hearted races. At Toyota I think he's in a bad situation were the car always has some aspect of its performance that isnt too good and it makes it hard for him to make an impression on a race, so its hard to tell how well he's doing. Plus, Trulli is a qualy specialist an always puts the car well ahead of were it belongs, so it appears that he's out racing Ralf at times.

[harsha]

Ralf Schumacher is too inconsistent. His statement that they are only two drivers ahead of him is ludicrous

Whichever way you look at it,i feel IMO Button,Massa,Heidfeld,Webber are all better than Ralf Schumacher along with KR and FA....

(not counting the rookies like Kubica,Hamilton,Heikki

[tsarcasm]

remember one year ago when Ralfy went off the track 4x times in Austrailia (in the same spot.....)

yup, top shelf talent

not

[Ranger]

remember one year ago when Ralfy went off the track 4x times in Austrailia (in the same spot.....)

yup, top shelf talent

not

Credit where credit's due, Australia was one of his better drives last year (3rd place... not too shabby).

[Ian McC]

Whatever is said about him he really isn't ever going to be good enough to be worth all that money

[ioan]

Whatever is said about him he really isn't ever going to be good enough to be worth all that money

Everyone is worth what it gets paid.
He might not be worth it for you but for sure he is worth it for Toyota.

[ArrowsFA1]

Everyone is worth what it gets paid.
He might not be worth it for you but for sure he is worth it for Toyota.
How is he worth it? What has he done to justify his salary (which is reportedly higher than Alonso's and only second to Kimi's) in comparison with this team-mate who is being paid considerably less?

[Shalafi]

How is he worth it? What has he done to justify his salary (which is reportedly higher than Alonso's and only second to Kimi's) in comparison with this team-mate who is being paid considerably less?

He is Michaels brother, for Gods sake!!! ;)

[Dave B]

Which probably makes Willi Weber the most talented person in the pitlane :crazy:

[ArrowsFA1]

I'm sure Willi sold Toyota a Schumacher, but conveniently forgot to tell them which one :crazy: :p

[ioan]

How is he worth it? What has he done to justify his salary (which is reportedly higher than Alonso's and only second to Kimi's) in comparison with this team-mate who is being paid considerably less?

Having a Schumacher to do all the PR work for you and so on from the most populated, and I would say biggest automotive consumer too, European country is worth every penny, rest assured. You might also want to name those other F1 drivers that would do a better job with racing AND developing their F1 car.

Taking everything into account only MS would have been a better fit for Toyota's needs, but we all know he wasn't available to anyone but Ferrari.

I really fail to see some people's problem with Ralf's salary. Are you people jealous or what?

[Ian McC]

Having a Schumacher to do all the PR work for you and so on from the most populated, and I would say biggest automotive consumer too, European country is worth every penny, rest assured. You might also want to name those other F1 drivers that would do a better job with racing AND developing their F1 car.

Taking everything into account only MS would have been a better fit for Toyota's needs, but we all know he wasn't available to anyone but Ferrari.

I really fail to see some people's problem with Ralf's salary. Are you people jealous or what?

Well I would say that the name made a difference, the expression 'you're paying for the name' seems to apply here. Toyota's performance has been poor and the drivers erratic, other than the name I think there are a few drivers that could of cost them less and given them better value for money.

[ioan]

Well I would say that the name made a difference, the expression 'you're paying for the name' seems to apply here. Toyota's performance has been poor and the drivers erratic, other than the name I think there are a few drivers that could of cost them less and given them better value for money.

There was only Heidfeld as other German driver available and his name is not Schumacher, and even if I rate him highly he isn't faster than Ralf.
As a driver Ralf is worth 10 millions a season, the rest is for the publicity

[ArrowsFA1]

I really fail to see some people's problem with Ralf's salary. Are you people jealous or what?
No. It's just that, like Ian, I think there are drivers that could of cost them a lot less and give Toyota far better value for money. Olivier Panis would have been one.

As Nigel Roebuck as said:
Weber negotiated a massive contract with Toyota, and to this day no one outside the Japanese company can fathom that, for other teams were hardly clamouring for Ralf's services at the time...if he's in anything less than the best car, only freak circumstances would net him a seventh victory.

Ralf has proved to be singularly poor value, having so far scored 65 points for Toyota, compared with the 58 of Jarno Trulli, whose retainer is not on the same planet. As well as that, you'd have to say that overall Trulli has been far the more competitive of the two: six years into its F1 programme, Toyota have still to win a race, but the team's best results - a pair of second places - were both scored by Jarno.


As a driver Ralf is worth 10 millions a season, the rest is for the publicity
Ralf is most certainly not Michael and his PR value is limited, but whatever value there is seems to be what WW somehow sold to Toyota. Regardless of how may Toyotas Ralf can sell, it's his on-track performances that are in question, and they haven't impressed, apart from the odd occasion.

[ioan]

it's his on-track performances that are in question, and they haven't impressed, apart from the odd occasion.

I say he's been the best point scorer for Toyota so far, can you prove otherwise?

[Ian McC]

So Ralf has scored 7 points more than Jarno, so that's about 1.4 million dollars a point I think.

[ioan]

So Ralf has scored 7 points more than Jarno, so that's about 1.4 million dollars a point I think.

Well Massa might have a better value/point ration than MS for last season as far as I'm concerned!

[jens]

No. It's just that, like Ian, I think there are drivers that could of cost them a lot less and give Toyota far better value for money. Olivier Panis would have been one.


Panis? He is 40 years old already.

Anyway, I don't usually care much, how much anyone is paid, but what I think we should take into account in Toyota's case, are previous years and how they hired their current drivers. It means - offering a lot of money is their method to get a driver. In 2004 they were slow and how could you say to a top team driver (who was Ralf then) that hey we are going to pay you 2 million $ per year and you should be content with driving among backmarkers.

Toyota has offered a lot of money to others as well.
In 2002 they offered 10 million $ to Barrichello.
In 2004 they asked Webber to drive for them. Not sure about the salary amount, but definetely bigger than the offer from Renault or Williams.
They offered "the riches of the world" to Räikkönen and Alonso, but also failed to get them.

Trulli has been another rare guy, who had belief in Toyota and refused from the offer of BAR in 2004 (how enticing it could have been THEN!) and preferred Toyota.

There is never such thing that someone is paying a lot of money just with a good will. "Pay as little as possible, but enough that the employee is satisfied and motivated to work," is the principle for an employer. And also Toyota has its own reasons, not just "oh we have nothing to do with our money, so let's give them so much".

Well. As Willi Weber is not Ralf's manager any more, then it would be interesting to see, how successful Ralf will be in his further negotiations.

[Garry Walker]

I say he's been the best point scorer for Toyota so far, can you prove otherwise?

Added to that, its not Ralf who is failing toyota. Its toyota. I really cant understand this hatred for Ralf, its amazing how he gets bashed no matter what he does, yet a certain former teammate of him can whine for 365 days and still get praise. He has outperformed Trulli, who was easily the equal of Alonso in 2004. I am not saying he is the best driver, but he is a good driver for sure. Someone suggested that Toyota should have hired panis? hahahahahahahaha. Panis is nowhere the driver Ralf is, and Toyota doesnt have problems with lack of money. They have loads of it, the problem is the management. Ralf and Trulli have driven well, any other driver in that car wouldnt have produced better results, with the exception of Michael Schumacher. But then again, you only have one Michael, a big big difference and then come other drivers.

[jso1985]

when Ralf was on his day he could as fast as his brother, remember San Marino 01 or France 03?
problem is that in the last years Ralf has been way too erratic. he's usually faster than Trulli yet when he's slower he's as slow as a Toro Rosso...
surely not the 3rd best driver on the grid but still a decent one(he has won more races than Button and Trulli together), but I don't he's worth what he's paid

[Ian McC]

Added to that, its not Ralf who is failing toyota. Its toyota. I really cant understand this hatred for Ralf, its amazing how he gets bashed no matter what he does, yet a certain former teammate of him can whine for 365 days and still get praise. He has outperformed Trulli, who was easily the equal of Alonso in 2004. I am not saying he is the best driver, but he is a good driver for sure. Someone suggested that Toyota should have hired panis? hahahahahahahaha. Panis is nowhere the driver Ralf is, and Toyota doesnt have problems with lack of money. They have loads of it, the problem is the management. Ralf and Trulli have driven well, any other driver in that car wouldnt have produced better results

True enough, Toyota have failed but the point being made is Ralf is not worth the money, there is no hatred for him.

[ArrowsFA1]

Added to that, its not Ralf who is failing toyota. Its toyota.
True to a degree. The team have consistently failed to deliver, but neither Ralf (nor Jarno) appear capable of pushing & motivating the team to improve. They appear comfortatble where they are, and where they are (and probably will stay at this rate) is midfield.

I really cant understand this hatred for Ralf, its amazing how he gets bashed no matter what he does...
Disagreeing with the criticism does not mean the criticism is hatred. You clearly have a higher regard for Ralf's abilities than many others. Fair enough.

Someone suggested that Toyota should have hired panis? hahahahahahahaha. Panis is nowhere the driver Ralf is, and Toyota doesnt have problems with lack of money. They have loads of it, the problem is the management.
I suggested Panis simply because he was available and would have provided what Toyota needed at the time. You say that "any other driver in that car wouldnt have produced better results" but that's unprovable. Even if true it raises questions about the amount spent by the management on drivers. Throwing money in the wrong direction achieves little, as Toyota have shown in the last two years.

[jens]

Even da Matta, Panis and Zonta didn't get so much criticism during the years of 2003-2004 as Trulli and Ralf get now... :dozey:

[100%hondafan]

da matta was good toyota should have kept him! but then i like trulli and ralf aswell so 3 into 2 doesnt go i guess

[wmcot]

Whatever is said about him he really isn't ever going to be good enough to be worth all that money

True, but I wouldn't turn Toyota down if they offered me the same amount! As always, there are two sides to the story.

[Osella]

Well, looks like it's all pretty much even at the moment Ralf/Trulli-wise. Interesting Toyota race tomorrow ;) Let's see how many points-per-dollar these two wasters bring home eh :p

[jens]

The only thing that I'm worried about Ralf is that he hopefully wouldn't run into the back of his team-mate's car like last year in Spain. :p :

[Garry Walker]

True to a degree. The team have consistently failed to deliver, but neither Ralf (nor Jarno) appear capable of pushing & motivating the team to improve. They appear comfortatble where they are, and where they are (and probably will stay at this rate) is midfield.
Its not about being comfortable being in the midfield, the problem is that the technical personal and especially the management are incompetent. No matter what the drivers do, they cant sort that out. its not about motivation or not being pushed enough, its about lack of talent, especially in the management side.



Disagreeing with the criticism does not mean the criticism is hatred. You clearly have a higher regard for Ralf's abilities than many others. Fair enough.
I dont like the way Ralf gets bashed so often - jpm fans make up ludicrous stories about JPM beating him, other bashers claim he only got to f1 because of the name and that he is only in it for the money and that he is slow - If all that is so, then why is he beating Trulli, why has he beaten most of his teammates? Ralf gets bashed incredibly much and most of it is totally undeserved.



I suggested Panis simply because he was available and would have provided what Toyota needed at the time. You say that "any other driver in that car wouldnt have produced better results" but that's unprovable. Even if true it raises questions about the amount spent by the management on drivers. Throwing money in the wrong direction achieves little, as Toyota have shown in the last two years.
What exactly could Panis have provided that Ralf cant/couldnt? Money isnt the problem for Toyota. With Ralf, they got a technically better driver, who is also by far more talented.

[jens]

About that Panis vs Ralf comparison.

The goal of F1 is not to save as much money as possible, but to take the maximum from all the resources. Of course Ralf costs more than Panis, but as Ralf is better than Panis and Toyota can afford Ralf, then no problem. I'd imagine that any of the backmarker teams would hire an expensive top driver if they only had money...

[BrentJackson]

I'm not sure there's anyone at Toyota who's not an overpaid has-been ;)

Ouch. :D

But then again, it is kinda true......

[ArrowsFA1]

The goal of F1 is not to save as much money as possible, but to take the maximum from all the resources. Of course Ralf costs more than Panis, but as Ralf is better than Panis and Toyota can afford Ralf, then no problem...
Toyota don't need expensive drivers, they just need good ones.

[pino]

Toyota don't need expensive drivers, they just need good ones.

Wrong ! Toyota needs a good car, nothing is wrong with the drivers :p :

[ioan]

Toyota don't need expensive drivers, they just need good ones.

It seems that the good ones are expensive, or do you think that KR and FA come for less than RS and JT? :p :

[Ian McC]

It seems that the good ones are expensive, or do you think that KR and FA come for less than RS and JT? :p :

But which ones of those are worth their salary?

[ioan]

But which ones of those are worth their salary?

All of them, I think that they all earn what the teams believe they are worth of.

[100%hondafan]

jarno and ralf both done a good job on sunday same with kimi and fernando so all of have earnt this months pay check in my eyes ;)

[ArrowsFA1]

Wrong ! Toyota needs a good car, nothing is wrong with the drivers :p :
Well, ok, they have one good driver and one expensive one ;) :s mokin:

[Heidfeldrulez]

Well, ok, they have one good driver and one expensive one ;) :s mokin:

You mean Trulli costs too much? :P I tend to agree, he has a 3 years deal with Toyota (I mean even world champions dont have that long a deal in F1) ,his ass is safe for 3 years he will make 20mil euro during that period of time and he got beaten by Ralf in 2005 in 2006 and so far in 2007.

Of course you're always going to find people claiming that Trulli is the better of the two just unlucky, but thats complete non-sense. You can not be better and still got beaten for two consecutive season. full stop. If you want to beat your team-mate you need more than luck, you need to perform very close to him and you need a certain amount of race-intelligence that Trulli lacks.

[Heidfeldrulez]

also, dont forget that Ralf has beaten Trulli againts all odds. Toyota particulary hate his ex-manager Weber and isnt a great fan of Ralf's attitude either. They want someone nice and polite and politicaly correct, the sort of corporate guy that Trulli is. the team clearly favorised him from the start, let him climb the Barcelona podium in 2005 instead of Ralf who deserved it better and needed all the confident-boost he could get at that time, pretty much the same happend last year in Suzuka, and yet Trulli singed the 3 year deal which is ridiculous in the modern era of F1 unless you are MS or Nando. I like the way Ralf keeps proving them wrong on the track, he earns a ridiculous amount of money? true, but he delivers and thats the only reason why Toyota dont sack him. Even Toyota cant be stupid enough to sack their better pointscorer.

[aryan]

Well, ok, they have one good driver and one expensive one ;) :s mokin:

You are combining Truli's first-half of the season's performance with RS's occassional magical races to get that one good driver, right?

[ArrowsFA1]

Toyota particulary hate his ex-manager Weber and isnt a great fan of Ralf's attitude either.
IF that's true...it says a great deal, and does anyone wonder why? A certain multi-year, multi-million dollar contract, and little to show for it perhaps :crazy:

If anyone needs a performance-based points=$s contract it's Ralf. Then we might see more of this ability he has shown from time to time.

[Heidfeldrulez]

IF that's true...it says a great deal, and does anyone wonder why? A certain multi-year, multi-million dollar contract, and little to show for it perhaps :crazy:

If anyone needs a performance-based points=$s contract it's Ralf. Then we might see more of this ability he has shown from time to time.


fact remains, its not him who has the 3yrs deal.

if you read German press you'd know Weber openly talked about the same issue I did (Toyota favouring Trulli) and criticized the team for not improving the package. His relationship with Toyota went so bad he didnt visit the their box for nearly half a season, to top it up, he criticized Cora for making decisions instead of Ralf. Then Ralf dumped him ... a week later he was smiling on RTL with the new contract singed.. go figure :D

if it wasnt for the Ralf/Weber split, Ralf would be without a contract now.

[Ian McC]

IF If anyone needs a performance-based points=$s contract it's Ralf. Then we might see more of this ability he has shown from time to time.


So you think he is, how shall we put it? Motivationally challenged rather than an average driver? :D