Your Ultimate Touring Car Championship

[UltimateDanGTR]

Leading on from the BTCC vs WTCC vs DTM vs V8SC thread, lets get some ideas going for our ultimate touring car championships. here are my thoughts:

First off, for me the ultimate TCC would be a much improved WTCC. There is nothing in motorsport outsdie of F1 like the idea of a global championship for touring cars that can capture the imagination. If done right.

so that also means no diesels and no hatchbacks.

First off: The Cars. S2000 is perfect for BTCC, don't get me wrong. NGTC will be great for it as well. But for a World Championship? Not good enough. WTCC cars should be some of the most powerful and fastest TCs around. Ie, V8 engines. as for bodywork, I love looking at a DTM car. but not too close, otherwise I see all the annoying flappy bits. for me the ultimate touring car has V8 engine, the epic low and wide profile of a DTM car, but without such aero bits and instead something simpler, but just as aggresive. I think TC2000 is the perfect inspiration for this. so, fans of V8SC, DTM, TC2000 and as later explained NASCAR could all fall in love with such cars. plus ofcourse, us brits ad the scandinavians arent going to say no are we.

For the record I think a global V8 TC engine would be excellent because of cost effectiveness for manufacturers. obviously used by V8SC and why not TC2000 and DTM as well? maybe even NASCAR could make an adaption.

Where to race: Zolder. Valencia. Curitiba. These places are boring. For me, Interlagos, Potrero de los Funes, Macau, Brands Hatch, Pau, Oschersleben or another german track, Monza, Portimao, Mexico City, Suzuka, Motorland Aragon are the type of places I think touring cars work (or hopefully would work). These sorts of places all in the same championship would be spectacular. For me there are two other countries to go to and markets to explore: the USA and Australia. S2000 cars would never appeal in these countries. Not when you look at NASCAR and V8SC cars respecitvely. but a DTMprofiled-TC2000bodyworked-V8powered-AwesomeSounding-Fast-Spectacular-UltimateTouringCar would appeal to such people I think. They'd see this kind of car as like that of NASCAR and V8SC, that just go round corners quicker. And as such, drivers in both series would more likely be interested in having a go in such a car. and having a few nascar and V8SC drivers in an Ultimate-WTCC race in such countries would certainly draw the fans in IMO. Laguna Seca and Phillip Island then, anyone?

Appeal:This is the most important aspect. an ultimate-TCC should appeal to fans, manufacturers, teams, sponsors, and drivers alike. so it needs:

*MAJOR MEDIA EXPOSURE
*quality tv coverage worldwide
*good branding and promoting
*epic cars and tracks to race at (as mentioned above) that bring appeal to fans AND drivers
*good fan relations
*good rules (no reverse grids and success ballast)
*good stewards (a rareity nowadays it seems)
*good organisation
*fun image
*star drivers, teams and variety of manufacturers
*good racing-and if there is variety and spectacular cars at great tracks, this should follow. which in turn attracts more people and the spiral continues......

oh, and just an idea:
say if you had 16 race meetings per year. 2 races per weekend. (longer than WTCC races shorter than DTM) 32 cars per race. what if in race one of every meeting, there is a random grid. it would work like this:

*the grid has 16 rows
*in 16 races (the first of the 2 at each meeting), each driver gets to start on each row over the course of the season.
*a draw is held on the thrusday/friday before the race weekend for each row of the grid with a drawing system involving some balls and some pretty women. this system keeps track of where evryone has started over the season.
*a secondary draw is held to establish on which side of each row everyone starts
*this race has a rolling start to keep things as fair as possible between which side of the grid a driver starts on, with no official pole sitter, rather 2 front row men

the second race features a normal qualifying format for its grid.




So there's my ideas, lets here yours:

[MrMetro]

for the wtcc, the cars should be in their orginal design, but they should be powerfull, and exciting to watch.

ditch 'success ballast', this is a world championship, with the best drivers.

instead of having two sprint races, there should just be one feature race, with pit-stops.

the media coverage should not be produced by KSO/Eurosport, as I find it un professional.

[UltimateDanGTR]

the media coverage should not be produced by KSO/Eurosport, as I find it un professional.

totally 100% agree.

[veeten]

try the Superstars Series. V8 engines (3001 to 7000 cc), main production sedans from all manufacturers, rules and regs that are not 'bank-breaking'.

A good deal altogether. :)

http://www.superstars.it/eng/

[BDunnell]

The only way I can see touring car racing in domestic championships, with the exception of Australia and Germany, thriving is for their technical regulations to mirror those of the WTCC. Sad, but true.

As for my preference, I don't like overtly 'silhouette'-style series. This is why the current BTCC and WTCC cars don't bother me too much. V8 Supercars machines are absolutely right for an Australian series, but somehow wouldn't be in Britain or many other countries. Less powerful family saloons seem to fit better.

[wedge]

I wish DTM would adopt a similar car V8SC and get Toyota to join in with their Lexus IS-F.

Bring the Aussies over for Spa 1000 and vice versa for Bathurst.

[Eurotech]

DTM cars are NOT Touring Cars.

They are GT cars in drag. My definition of a touring car is a car you can watch racing on sunday then drive to work on monday. This is where S2000 fits in, the wings etc. make them look like proper racing cars but not like stupid fiddly F1/GT rubbish like the DTM.

Also, I think there should be on sprint race an one feature race, with pitstops and then maybe a flagship race over 500km once a year or something for double points.

My championship would also adopt the old FIA GT3 system of limiting how many of each car are allowed to just 6 per model. These may be run in 2 teams of 3 cars or 3 teams of 2 cars, but no more.

TV coveage will have BTCC style "whole day" coverage inc. support races on like ITV4 but also have a highlight show on Sunday afternoon showing just the touring car races (in full) on a mainstream channel like ITV1 (the channels will change depending on what country it is shown it). It will also be streamed live on the internet FIA GT1 World Championship style to boost coverage all over the world.

Tracks will consist of places like Imola, Brands Hatch, Monaco (F1 support race?), Spa, Algarve, Donington, Oscherschleben etc to add some glamour.

The grid for both races will be decided in two qualifying sessions (one for the first race, one for the second).

This is the gospel according to Eurotech :)

[MrMetro]

DTM cars are NOT Touring Cars.

They are GT cars in drag. My definition of a touring car is a car you can watch racing on sunday then drive to work on monday. This is where S2000 fits in, the wings etc. make them look like proper racing cars but not like stupid fiddly F1/GT rubbish like the DTM.

you could say that rich bankers may watch DTM on sunday, then drive to work in their nice new Audi or Merc, the next day, with all the money they got from their bonus.

[Allyc85]

My ultimate Touring Car championship would be the current V8 Supercar championship with a few more manufacturers!

The cars look great, sound great, move around alot and create some great close racing. Also the coverage is spot on with very informative commentary and pit lane reporting.

Must get to Oz one day and see it for myself :D

[Eurotech]

Yeah but V8's aren't very relevant to the kind of manufacturers that you want in your series.

[Allyc85]

How do you know ;)

As long as a manufacturer has a saloon and v8 in their range then they would be in :)

[wedge]

How do you know ;)

As long as a manufacturer has a saloon and v8 in their range then they would be in :)

Just like NASCAR!


Must get to Oz one day and see it for myself :D

Would love to do Bathurst. Surfer's Paradise is the easier option

[UltimateDanGTR]

Just like NASCAR!



not necessarily. but as far as I see it, the big non-european motorsport markets that the WTCC should go to: USA, Australia, Argentina and Brazil, all have national premier saloon car series with spectacular cars, and so I think great interest in the WTCC would only be achieved in these places with cars that are just as spectacular.

good manouvairbility, large engines, aggresive but not fiddly aero packages and affordability is the dream for me. It would end up like a more awesome Superstars series.

and they use V8s. and there is plenty of european cars in that series.

I am not try any tour completions. i am not interested to do practically. but i like the tour stories and experiences from others

[NaBUru38]

V8 Supercars, DTM and V8 Superstars are interesting shows, but are far proper touring car racing. Their cars aren't popular enough to get that tag.

The best in my opinion is the Argentine TC2000: six brands running works teams (Ford, Chevrolet, Honda, Toyota, Fiat and Peugeot) totalling over 20 cars with top drivers in nearly all of them; amazing looking cars with four-cylinder engines and nice performance; and perfect weekend formats (one or two sprint races plus a 110km or 50min feature race most of the dates; a few special 200km or 300km pseudo endurance races).

To turn it into ultimate, it obviously needs the world's best drivers. Circuits can't be just good, FIA Grande 2: they must be special: Monza, Silverstone, Spa, Potrero de los Funes, Suzuka, Bathurst, Road Atlanta, Road America, nice street courses. Not a European championship with a couple of overseas rounds like most world championships: neither Europe or Asia should get over 40% of the races.

[Captain VXR]

Same classes and technical regs as:
http://www.timeattack.co.uk/index.php/what-is-time-attack/classing-categories/
http://www.timeattack.co.uk/index.php/2009-events/rules-and-regulations/
This series has everything from Skylines to a 6R4 Metro and a carbon bodied Sierra Cosworth, with a healthy dose of Imprevos, Lotuses and hot hatches
2x30 min races, 1x1 hour race per race weekend
Calendar:
Mondello Park
Knockhill
Mallory Park
Llandow
Spa
Nurburgring Nordschleife
Tor Samochodowy Poznan
Monza
Mantorp Park
The Mantorp and Mallory rounds would coincide with the Gatebil and new Awesomefest events
Support races:
Formula BMW - anyone remember how awesome they sounded?
Clio Cup
both Ginetta BTCC support series
Carrera Cup
Camaro Cup
JDM Allstars drift series
JRM Motorsport EVO X race series

[UltimateDanGTR]

V8 Supercars, DTM and V8 Superstars are interesting shows, but are far proper touring car racing. Their cars aren't popular enough to get that tag.

The best in my opinion is the Argentine TC2000: six brands running works teams (Ford, Chevrolet, Honda, Toyota, Fiat and Peugeot) totalling over 20 cars with top drivers in nearly all of them; amazing looking cars with four-cylinder engines and nice performance; and perfect weekend formats (one or two sprint races plus a 110km or 50min feature race most of the dates; a few special 200km or 300km pseudo endurance races).

To turn it into ultimate, it obviously needs the world's best drivers. Circuits can't be just good, FIA Grande 2: they must be special: Monza, Silverstone, Spa, Potrero de los Funes, Suzuka, Bathurst, Road Atlanta, Road America, nice street courses. Not a European championship with a couple of overseas rounds like most world championships: neither Europe or Asia should get over 40% of the races.

I agree with much of this. I wouldn't have any sprint races though like they have in TC2000; longer races at least about 35-40% of a normal GP distance for the shorter races. I quite like the idea of 1 or 2 endurance races per year as well.

I know people don't see V8SC and DTM cars as proper touring cars. rightly so. though I like several aspects of both. production based touring cars with big modifications to make the cars go fast is a good way to go in this respect instead of basically being purpose built race cars.

as a side note, I'm not too keen on FIAT being involved in motor racing like in TC2000; I would rather see their subsidiries; Alfa, Ferrari and Maserati out on track, all of which have the greater motor racing heritage. but I am just picky.

[wedge]

V8 Supercars, DTM and V8 Superstars are interesting shows, but are far proper touring car racing. Their cars aren't popular enough to get that tag.

That's because national based series serve their own markets and interests eg. 1990s Trans Am and V8SC.

[wbcobrar]

Came over here from the NASCAR side and I am very interested in what I hear. Big news over there is VW is involved in an effort to bring DTM style cars to run a twelve race stand alone series at NASCAR events (for 6 races, presumably the road courses;Watkins Glen, Road America, Sanoma, Montreal, etc. and 6 races with the NASCAR owned Grand-Am series). I have watched both DTM and V8Supercars on Speed, and I love the Idea of one size fits all regs that all the worlds manufacturers can compete in. Call it the Holy Grail of motorsport. This is what LeMans should be, and the GT2 portion is doing a descent job of it. Here in the States Speed Challenge puts on a great show with many different makes, including regulating cars so Vipers can have V10's and Porsche can have boxer6 and even turbo cars all fairly equalized. Forgive my ignorance, but how much standardization is in a "touring car". Are the chassis and engines all fairly spec like NASCAR?

[NaBUru38]

I'm not too keen on FIAT being involved in motor racing like in TC2000; I would rather see their subsidiries; Alfa, Ferrari and Maserati out on track, all of which have the greater motor racing heritage. but I am just picky.
Well, Fiat is a big seller in Argentina, and the group's other brands don't.

[UltimateDanGTR]

Well, Fiat is a big seller in Argentina, and the group's other brands don't.

this I can appreciate. It's fine for Argentina, but I just might take time to get used to the idea if such a thing happened in europe.

[veeten]

Forgive my ignorance, but how much standardization is in a "touring car". Are the chassis and engines all fairly spec like NASCAR?

That, basically depends on the series in question, be it BTCC, WTCC, STCC, DTM, etc. One has to check the Techinical Regulations in order to acertain the basis and differences between them. :)

[jens]

A DTM/V8esque World Championship is an interesting thought.

But when it comes to WTCC (or UTCC :D ) my personal thought and addition to all of that would be longer races. A thought of a short 10-lap race doesn't remind me a World Championship, but more likely a local hobby kart racing. Also they should have one race per weekend like they have in major series (F1, IndyCar, NASCAR), which lasts at least for an hour or 1,5 hours. Also in the interest of marketing it would be good if the races were in alternative weekends compared to F1. Then FIA could promote it: "One weekend you watch world class open-wheel racing, the other one world-class closed-wheel racing."

This would personally attract me to watch the races. Multiple races with 10-15 lap sprints with little time to happen much doesn't excite. But a proper Touring Car Grands Prix concept would. A nice proper build-up for the whole weekend: FP's on Friday, qualifying on Saturday, the long race on Sunday. Lots of races per weekend just devalues the importance of a race - such method may be conceivable for a support series for a bigger one or even local series, but not for something that aims to be a World Championship.

[UltimateDanGTR]

A DTM/V8esque World Championship is an interesting thought.

But when it comes to WTCC (or UTCC :D ) my personal thought and addition to all of that would be longer races. A thought of a short 10-lap race doesn't remind me a World Championship, but more likely a local hobby kart racing. Also they should have one race per weekend like they have in major series (F1, IndyCar, NASCAR), which lasts at least for an hour or 1,5 hours. Also in the interest of marketing it would be good if the races were in alternative weekends compared to F1. Then FIA could promote it: "One weekend you watch world class open-wheel racing, the other one world-class closed-wheel racing."

This would personally attract me to watch the races. Multiple races with 10-15 lap sprints with little time to happen much doesn't excite. But a proper Touring Car Grands Prix concept would. A nice proper build-up for the whole weekend: FP's on Friday, qualifying on Saturday, the long race on Sunday. Lots of races per weekend just devalues the importance of a race - such method may be conceivable for a support series for a bigger one or even local series, but not for something that aims to be a World Championship.

I agree. current WTCC races just aren't world championship enough.

I like the alternate weekends with F1 thing, and I personally think the 'TC Grands Prix' idea is good; an earlier and similar thought of mine was that you could have the 'Touring Car Grand National' for U/WTCC events.

Saying this, I would have a range of race lengths and race formats. some events with proper endurance races, others with races about 200-250km long maybe with maybe 2 races per weekend and one or two 300km races in the season. for some reason, I was quite keen on the one off 4-race format in V8SC Surfers '09. maybe a one off 4 race event would work, if it were dubbed the ______ 600, with each race 150km long. I am quite fond of how the V8SC name some of their races based on the entire km race lengths over the weekend, that or the 'Grand National/Prix' concept could work.

following on from this race wins should be presented and celebrated like GP wins (yeah, that means full length national anthems on a proper podium like F1, currently unlike WTCC) and proper F1-scale pre race presentation. A U/WTCC race should be a massive thing.