World Rally Ranking [Archive] - Motorsport Forums

Jarek Z

17th September 2010, 20:42

So finally the rally world has something similar as world football ranking or ATP ranking in tennis - World Rally Ranking. The results that count are taken from WRC, ERC, IRC and national championships. The most points drivers can get in WRC (coefficient 15), then IRC (coeff. 14) and ERC (12). In national championships the coefficient is only 3.

Currently the highest ranked drivers are not surprisingly Loeb and Ogier. But third is Juho Hanninen, thanks to his successes in IRC. In my opinion this whole idea is quite interesting, although Matthew Wilson in 9th place is a disgrace to all talented drivers of the world.

The best rally country is... France? Finland? No! Italy. All thanks to numerous international successes of such drivers as Rossetti, Basso, Fontana and Andreucci. Czechs are second and Finns third. Poland is currently sixth rally force in the world :)

All statistics lovers, enjoy the ranking:
http://www.worldrallyranking.com

N.O.T

17th September 2010, 20:45

the ridiculous aspect of the list is beyond commenting on it.....

OldF

17th September 2010, 20:59

Kimi is ranked 19 and PGA 21, fast Freddy 22. This list must be a joke.

N.O.T

17th September 2010, 21:07

ketomaa not even in top 40....

all this list needs is a greek driver in it to complete the stupidity of those who made that list...

Tomi

17th September 2010, 21:12

lol, amusing reading again, especially the Italy best in rallying, quite an achivement from a country that has not produced absolute top drivers since Sandro Munari.
Maybe this is Rally humor.

Josti

17th September 2010, 21:23

Mirek

17th September 2010, 21:47

Well, the idea is quite good but the result is ridiculous thanks to too much weight given to totally useless European cups (Italy and Czech republic have the biggest number of EC events and You can see the result in the ranking).

Tomi

17th September 2010, 21:59

]Well, the idea is quite good but the result is ridiculous thanks to too much weight given to totally useless European cups (Italy and Czech republic have the biggest number of EC events and You can see the result in the ranking).

Yes, but there is already a ranking, the points. Soon as they start to do a ranking between drivers that never drive against each other it looks like this.

Mirek

17th September 2010, 22:04

I believe the original idea was to substitute priority system by something more useful to help organizers in seeding starting order (something like ATP tennis ranking). Of course this is not a case of WRC events, where there is different priority system used, but in other events it's often quite a mess in starting order. But anyway if this is the result, the current system, however bad it is, is better.

jonas_mcrae

20th September 2010, 02:23

Proton Satria Neo has more points than Xsara WRC...

MartijnS

20th September 2010, 07:25

We get a lot of mails of this website..quite annoying imo ;)

Raven

20th September 2010, 09:08

lol, amusing reading again, especially the Italy best in rallying, quite an achivement from a country that has not produced absolute top drivers since Sandro Munari.
Maybe this is Rally humor.
You are probably one of those boys that think in wrc are the best drivers of the whole world. Try to have the wider view. Maybe you will be surprised, but italian championship is the best and most challenging national serie. They just don't have money or time to waste for wrc.
One of the funniest things for me is that Wilson is higher than Andreucci.

N.O.T

20th September 2010, 09:32

You are probably one of those boys that think in wrc are the best drivers of the whole world. Try to have the wider view. Maybe you will be surprised, but italian championship is the best and most challenging national serie. They just don't have money or time to waste for wrc.
One of the funniest things for me is that Wilson is higher than Andreucci.

the top wrc guys cannot be touched by village event winners....the fact that andreucci is 150 years old and still wins in italy says a lot about the level of competition....the battles are very nice indeed but they happen in slow motion.

Monte carlo this year is a good indication of the difference in driver skills between WRC and other events. Same goes for the ridicule hanninen gets from ketomaa when he challenges him in the WRC.

as for the "don't have time to waste part" i think the WRC cannot afford to spend resources on them and not the way you put it.

this ranking is plain stupid from any point of view you look at it.....the guys who invented it should get an award for their stupidity.

raybak

20th September 2010, 09:48

I think an overall seeding list would be better. I wreckon it wouldn't be too hard to do, just a lot of data entry from event results.

We have a good system here in NSW that give's co efficients to events based on who is in them.

How it works is like this:-

Starting from scratch

Say Loeb is in an event, he wins it so he gets a 100% for the event. Petter is say 3rd with a co efficient of 99.79 as he's only a few seconds off the pace. If Solberg enters a local event in the same car and wins it, the results from that event get worked out to a co efficient of 99.79.

It could work for WRC and national events, just need to get someone to do the data entry.

Here's the one we have for NSW Rallying.

http://www.nswrally.com/dmdocuments/seeding_list_after_Mini_Corsa.xls

Ray

Tomi

20th September 2010, 11:53

You are probably one of those boys that think in wrc are the best drivers of the whole world.

You are right, im sure the best rally drivers are in WRC.

PLuto

20th September 2010, 14:04

You are right, im sure the best rally drivers are in WRC.

I am sure you are wrong. Yes, the best rally driver is in WRC, but others...

DonJippo

20th September 2010, 14:17

I am sure you are wrong. Yes, the best rally driver is in WRC, but others...

Being so sure about this you surely have names of those better drivers?

Mihai

20th September 2010, 15:33

All statistics lovers, enjoy the ranking:
http://www.worldrallyranking.com

I think it's a decent effort to replicate http://www.castroldriverrankings.com/index.html which is restricting rally drivers to just WRC and IRC, while circuit drivers can score points in 50 championships or so.

The rankings on worldrallyranking.com produces more humour than a very accurate situation, particularly when it comes to local/national rallying. It may be pleasing to see Marco Tempestini (midfielder in Romanian national rally championship) ranked 4th among Italian drivers - ahead of Basso, Travaglia and Fontana - but I don't think anybody believes it's how things stand.

Langdale Forest

20th September 2010, 17:55

Proton Satria Neo has more points than Xsara WRC...

You mean the Proton 'Septic Nappy'?

Mirek

20th September 2010, 17:58

Proton Satria Neo has more points than Xsara WRC...

That's one of few things I don't find strange. It's not history ranking but current one, so it's normal that car which doesn't start regularly in any international competition, doesn't have points.

Jarek Z

20th September 2010, 20:10

In my opinion this ranking is not so bad. Maybe these are just difficult beginnings? I agree that in some places it's ridiculous, but also rallying is today a ridiculous sport.

Football and tennis have had their own rankings for years. And they work. Because in those sports the best competitors compete in the most important championships. If you are good at playing football you qualify and compete in European Championship and World Cup. The same with tennis. The best players compete in the best tournaments - Ralland Garros, Wimbledon, Australian Open etc. The problem with rallying is that it's full of Wilsons, Villagras, Al Qasimis, Rautenbachs and Munchis. They would never achieve World Championship level in tennis or football. In rallying is just a matter of money to reach international level. It's hard to reflect it in such a ranking.

PLuto

20th September 2010, 21:51

Completely agree with Jarek

Raven

21st September 2010, 14:26

I will never understand how it is possible that so many people think that in WRC are only the best drivers. Maybe is an effect of FIA politics, i.e. pulling the wool over peoples eyes?
It was like that years ago, when competing in wrc was less expensive, competition was better and the whole serie was not so much concentrated on factory teams. Oh... and FIA wasn't so stupid.

N.O.T

21st September 2010, 14:37

I will never understand how it is possible that so many people think that in WRC are only the best drivers.

could you name some drivers that could compete with them and are outside the WRC ?

and by the WRC i don't mean wilson and co. i mean the best...Latvala,loeb ogier,sordo,hirvonen ects...

all the IRC guys (apart from hanninen) had their chances and did absolutely nothing with it...

Raven

22nd September 2010, 06:50

and by the WRC i don't mean wilson and co. i mean the best...Latvala,loeb ogier,sordo,hirvonen ects...
Strange thinking, Wilson and co. are not in WRC?

Tomi

22nd September 2010, 07:06

Strange thinking, Wilson and co. are not in WRC?

how about the examples?, would be interesting to know who and where the best drivers are.

N.O.T

22nd September 2010, 07:41

Strange thinking, Wilson and co. are not in WRC?

its not strange....its unfair to compare the top local/irc drivers with the second class ones from the wrc....

you compare the top of the locals/irc/erc with the top of the wrc and the second class locals/irc with the second class WRC ones which again the difference is chaotic...

its like in womens sport football... the top players/girls play for the first division teams and the second class in the second/third division.

Raven

22nd September 2010, 09:02

Tom, N.O.T. you don't understand. I mean that in WRC there are maybe 15-20% of good drivers, the rest has more money than talent. In the past it was much bigger percentage.
The WRC is no longer a place where most of the top drivers are. Currently big number of them drive in cheaper series (including national).

Tomi

22nd September 2010, 09:06

Tom, N.O.T. you don't understand. I mean that in WRC there are maybe 15-20% of good drivers, the rest has more money than talent. In the past it was much bigger percentage.
The WRC is no longer a place where most of the top drivers are. Currently they drive in cheaper series (including national).

Is it so difficult for you to tell, lets say in what series does the top 5 drivers drive?

Raven

22nd September 2010, 09:25

Why only five? I can tell you that top drivers are for example in WRC, IRC, CIR. And that's not all.
You can't measure the serie by taking only five of them, bcause in wrc after those five are only average.

N.O.T

22nd September 2010, 09:25

The WRC is no longer a place where most of the top drivers are. Currently big number of them drive in cheaper series (including national).

i can partially agree with that....but again it involves not the absolute top of drivers.....i cannot see any driver from any other series to compete with the top 4-5 of the WRC.

in the past we had bigger numbers of drivers but again the field was as narrow as it is now on the top...in the past we had many to compete with wilsons, villagras, rautenbachs and warmbolds...but the names at the top were 3-5 as they are now.

my objection lies in the word "TOP" you are using.....the top is in the WRC...

and again name a few that could be in the top of the WRC and they are driving in other series...most IRC guys are washed up WRC "failures"....and those that drive in national series when irc visits their countries don't do much.

Tomi

22nd September 2010, 09:56

Why only five?

Because there cant be very many best drivers, the rest are already not so good.

Raven

22nd September 2010, 10:02

i can partially agree with that....but again it involves not the absolute top of drivers.....i cannot see any driver from any other series to compete with the top 4-5 of the WRC.
And that's the problem. There are 4-5 top drivers. The rest is a background.
Top drivers from national series (of course not every) are aloso slower because they don't have so many tests and their season is half as long as those from wrc.

in the past we had bigger numbers of drivers but again the field was as narrow as it is now on the top...in the past we had many to compete with wilsons, villagras, rautenbachs and warmbolds...but the names at the top were 3-5 as they are now.
I don't agree. There were more winners (of course not many more), but there were much more drivers capable of fighting for the 2nd or 3rd place. Currently you have the same names all the time on the podium.

my objection lies in the word "TOP" you are using.....the top is in the WRC...
TOP in rallying is not the same as in football as JarekZ said. It also depends from the observer. Maybe I just have other definition?

most IRC guys are washed up WRC "failures"....and those that drive in national series when irc visits their countries don't do much.
I'm following wrc only to know what's happening and why Loeb didn't win, so maybe I'm under informed, but rather at least half of them didn't have a chance because of the budget and (in last years) small number of free seats? Some of them had failures indeed.

N.O.T

22nd September 2010, 11:03

ok...so can i have some names please?

who are the drivers that would be ahead of Loeb, Ogier, Hirvonen, latvala,sordo and Solberg in the WRC and they are driving in local or IRC/ERC/APRC ?

raybak

22nd September 2010, 14:07

Tomi

22nd September 2010, 14:17

You have to look at some of these WRC drivers who we say are slow. Put them in a national series and they are the quick ones. Look at Villagra, back in Argentina he is a national champion. Wilson may be slow compared to the top 5 guys, but put him in a national series round and he will go extremely well. It amounts to time in the seat as well. I know how much quicker I go when I've got a lot of rallies under my belt.

The only way to rank rallying is by a seeding list with coefficients for each event.

Ray

It depends in what national series you put them, the national series differs quite a bit, the better drivers from some national series can drive right away on par or even beat the fastest of the S2000 drivers, champion of some national series does not tell much, if it is not a respected series, that produces good international level drivers.

raybak

22nd September 2010, 14:48

It depends in what national series you put them, the national series differs quite a bit, the better drivers from some national series can drive right away on par or even beat the fastest of the S2000 drivers, champion of some national series does not tell much, if it is not a respected series, that produces good international level drivers.

That's also right, different national series show different strengths. Here in Australia we probably have 3 or 4 drivers who would do well in IRC, especially Simon Evans who has proven how fast he is in a S2000. But as he has no performance against European competitors to gauge his speed he will get a crap seeing when he does European events.

I think in my spare time over the next couple of weeks I will put together a seeding from as many events I can get data from. See what it looks like compared to the world rally rankings.

Ray

Jarek Z

22nd September 2010, 19:21

ok...so can i have some names please?

NOT, don't you think that such drivers from the past such as Henrik Lundgaard, Pasi Hagstrom, Stephane Sarrazin, Luca Rossetti, Cedric Robert, Nicolas Vouilloz, Jussi Valimaki, Janne Tuohino, Kris Meeke would do much better work in WRC than let's say Matt Wilson or Hennig Solberg?

I admit Loeb is an exceptional talent, that's beyound any doubt.
But, if you remember, both Solbergs, Hirvonen and Latvala were not very fast in their beginnings in WRC. They needed several years of competition and testing until they reached their current level. Wouldn't Tuohino do exactly as good or better if he was given a chance?

OldF

22nd September 2010, 21:35

What coefficients would you give to the different championships if WRC have a coefficient of 100?

This is how I see it (there could still be some adjustments necessary):

Rallies valid for the FIA World Rally Championship (WRC) = 100 (coeff. 15)
Rallies valid for the Intercontinental Rally Challenge (IRC) = 67 (coeff. 14)
Rallies valid for the European Rally Championship (ERC) = 51 (coeff. 12)
Rallies valid for the Asia-Pacific Championship (APRC) = 34 (coeff 8)
Rallies valid for the Middle-East Championship (MERC) = 34 (coeff 8)
Rallies vallid for the African Rally Championship (ARC) = 34 (coeff 8)
Rallies valid for the Central America Championship (NACAM) = 34 (coeff 8)
Rallies valid for the Southern America Championship (CODASUR) = 34 (coeff 8)
Rallies valid for the European Cups Championship (ERCUP) = 30 (coeff. 7)
Non Championship Events (NCE) = 24 (coeff. 4)
Zone Events (ZE) = 20 (coeff. 3)
Reserved Events (RE) = 20 (coeff. 2)
National championships (NS) = 20

In parentheses IRDA coefficients. This is how it would look when using the same points for 1, 2, 3 etc. as IRDA.

1st (40*67 = 2680 points) in IRC -> 6th in WRC (2700 points)

1st (40*51 = 2040 points) in ERC -> 4th in IRC (2077 points) -> 10h in WRC (2100 points)

1st (1360 points) in APRC, MERC, ARC, NACAM, CODASUR -> 6th in ERC (1377 points) -> 17th in WRC (1400 points)

1st (1200 points) in ERCUP -> 2nd in APRC, MERC, ARC, NACAM, CODASUR (1224 points) -> 19th in WRC (1200 points)

1st (960 points) in NCE -> 3rd in ERCUP (990 points) -> 21st in WRC (1000 points)

1st (800 points) in ZE, RE and NS -> 3rd in NCE (792 points) -> 23rd in WRC (800 points)

The problem with this system is that a driver could gather points from two different championships if for example an IRC rally is also a national championship rally. To solve this problem the driver would score the points from that championship that gives the driver more points. And it would be even more fair if the drivers points would be the average of points divided by number of rallies participated.

Jarek Z

22nd September 2010, 22:23

In my opinion your proposition looks reasonable. Although I don't understand why a non championship event should have higher coefficient than a national championship rally?

Mirek

22nd September 2010, 23:42

It would still work unreal. Because to win a round of for example Danish champ (no offense) is probably easier than to be in top ten in Italian championship. It's still "same level" of ranking. The same goes to zone events and European cups. Almost all events of our championship are something like that but entry would be same if they are not. No-one is interested in these useless series except some our national drivers who get money from ASN for representation (although they drive only one event outside Czech championship to be classified - in reality ASN sponsors them our national champ).

I wanted to point out that useless basis of any ranking system will give always only useless results. This ranking system can be balanced for WRC, IRC, ERC, MERC, APRC, CODASUR but never for national series etc. They have too different level.

23rd September 2010, 09:53

the top wrc guys cannot be touched by village event winners....the fact that andreucci is 150 years old and still wins in italy says a lot about the level of competition....the battles are very nice indeed but they happen in slow motion.

Monte carlo this year is a good indication of the difference in driver skills between WRC and other events. Same goes for the ridicule hanninen gets from ketomaa when he challenges him in the WRC.

Francois Duval drove Sanremo last year in the same car that finished second and from memory most of his times were outside of the top 10. He also drove on Deutschland this year and did somewhat better than that.

As for Hanninen/Ketomaa, it is true that those two seem to be far and away faster than anyone else in sWRC on gravel, but remember Hanninen won in Finland. I would think right now Hanninen is a more complete driver than Ketomaa.

I hope that there will be some more manufacturers in WRC in the future and not just the three we have next year and then some of these drivers you call "failures" might get a decent chance. IMO, after the top 6 guys from WRC (Loeb, Ogier, Mikko, Petter, JML, Sordo) there is a group from outside who are better than the guys in the "M2" teams which would include Meeke, Hanninen, Ketomaa + maybe PG and possibly some others.

Mirek

23rd September 2010, 13:25

As for Hanninen/Ketomaa, it is true that those two seem to be far and away faster than anyone else in sWRC on gravel, but remember Hanninen won in Finland. I would think right now Hanninen is a more complete driver than Ketomaa.

They had two battles this year. In the first one in Portugal Juho crashed while being some 1-2 seconds behind Ketomaa, so it's not that easy ;)

OldF

23rd September 2010, 18:18

]It would still work unreal. Because to win a round of for example Danish champ (no offense) is probably easier than to be in top ten in Italian championship. It's still "same level" of ranking. The same goes to zone events and European cups. Almost all events of our championship are something like that but entry would be same if they are not. No-one is interested in these useless series except some our national drivers who get money from ASN for representation (although they drive only one event outside Czech championship to be classified - in reality ASN sponsors them our national champ).

I wanted to point out that useless basis of any ranking system will give always only useless results. This ranking system can be balanced for WRC, IRC, ERC, MERC, APRC, CODASUR but never for national series etc. They have too different level.

I focused more on giving WRC, IRC etc. a coefficient and national championships in general some kind of coefficient. That’s true that there are huge different in levels in the national championships and they should have different coefficients (1 – 20) but I think that would be a challenging job. In fact the IRDA list doesn’t have any coefficient for national championships.

Also the drivers in continental championships rarely compete in same rally so it’s a little bit guessing what coefficients they should have. For ERC it’s little bit easier but for the rest….

There are the “Non Championship Events” which contains rallies from British, Irish, Italian, Swiss and Czech national rally championships and there are quite many from Italian I.R.C Trony, few international rallies etc. Would be nice to on what basis these rallies have choosed.

The other is the “Zone Events” that contains rallies from different countries. I didn’t bother to look up if they are included in a national championship.

In these both list there is one French rally but not a single Spanish, Portuguese, German, Swedish, Norwegian, Finnish etc, rally.