2011 fia rally car classes

[morganmilan]

Reading all last posts on 2011 future cars I´ve got totally confused again, so i open this thread to beg help to other forumers to make an accurate idea of types of cars for next year and following ones. I suppose there will be:
1 - WRC cars with 1.6T engines (new)
2 - s2000 cars post 1-jan-2011 with 1.6T engines too (?) (also new)
3 - s2000 cars pre 1-jan-2011 with 2.0 atmosferic engines (old) (same cars class as previous group?)
4 - N4 cars (Sub and Mits) (old)
5 - R cars (R1, R2, R3, R3T...) all of them 2WD and various motors (old)
Am I right? If wrong, please show me what´s not right. And what with A8 WRC cars (C4, Focus, etc)? Will they still run next year in national championships or soever? :confused:
Thnx everybody

[ProRally]

Nearly correct :

R4 MAYBE comming, which is like Sub + Mitsu 4wd but more open like seq gearbox, lighter weight, 34mm restrictor etc.

[morganmilan]

Thnx ProRally, any idea of A8 cars next year? Do you know if old and new s2000 cars will compete in same class?

[Allar]

Old WRC cars are still allowed, but not in WRChampionship.

[morganmilan]

Thnx rallyfan :) . In other thread Mirek Fric talks about new s2000 cars as "downgraded wrc cars" :) . If that, I can´t see clearly if that cars could compete against old s2000 and N4 ( and perhaps R4 cars), or against proper wrc cars, but in last case situation became absurd :rolleyes:

[OldF]

To the question: “Does the Fiesta RS WRC have the same suspension as Fiesta S2000?”

Answer: similar but not identical

http://twitter.com/WRCgerardquinn/status/22267420659

As can been seen from here http://www.citizenside.com/en/photos/motor-sports/2010-08-03/27701/new-ford-fiesta-rs-wrc-2011-under-test-in-the-french-pyrenees-mountains.html (pictures 31 and 32) it looks like the top mounting points of the rear dampers are the same as in Fiesta S2000 (http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/4074/1001946s.jpg).

[Sulland]

Thnx rallyfan :) . In other thread Mirek Fric talks about new s2000 cars as "downgraded wrc cars" :) .


But at a stage that was the plan, that WRC cars should be a bit upgraded S2000 with a kit (Spoilers and engine bits) that could be removed to switch btw WRC and IRC or national spec.

Maybe R4 will be this, but with either 1,6T or 2,0T, but evenly matched (If possible)

For simplicity I would kill off the 2 ltr, and just go for a 1,6T solution for both GrN and S2000 in the R4 class and high tune 1,6T engine in WRC class.

[bt52b]

What's even more confusing is they screwed up the introduction of the new classes. The new WRC cars and S2000 cost probably twice as much as they said they would, not sure what people think about the cost effectiveness of the other classes. Some reckon S2000 1.6T engines will cost more than the 2.0l ones. Can't wait to hear how they will sort out this mess!

[Francis44]

Im just so mad at FIA, F1 regulations are choosen for 2013 and in WRC they dont even know what to do for 2011, this shows how FIA looks to the WRC.

[morganmilan]

Incredible (although coming from FIA...): four months to begin, and nobody seems to know really how rally car classes will look like :eek:

[OldF]

Maybe this clears things up a little (or if not there’s mess).

In the case of MINI the Super Production and WRC versions, the cars are identical. The difference is that the Super Production (SP) use a 32 mm restrictor and the WRC version a 33 mm restrictor + rear wing + front bumper + uprated front brakes.

http://www.motoringfile.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/Mini-rally-car-sales-package.pdf (page 3)

Probably the SP is intended for FIA regional championships.

If so, it’s going to be quite easy to switch between regional championship version and WRC version. To swap from SP to WRC, add the rear wing, front bumper and the uprated front brakes, replace the 32 mm restrictor with the 33 mm restrictor and probably the ECU needs also some re-mapping so download the WRC mapping to the ECU.

As far as I know the Super Production includes the current S2000 and N4 (there was a super production for circuit few years ago). The 2011 version of S2000 doesn’t have an own “name”, so it could be called Super 1.6T, S1.6T, S2011 or something else.

The R4 is maybe an upgraded version of N4 to make them more competitive with current S2000. If that were true, then the Super production from 2011 would include the S2000, R4 and S1.6T.

These are just my speculations but the SP with 32 mm restrictor and WRC with 33 mm restrictor is a fact.

[bt52b]

These are just my speculations but the SP with 32 mm restrictor and WRC with 33 mm restrictor is a fact.

Are these restrictor sizes published anywhere? What are likely power outputs of the 32mm and the 33mm? Is there a boost pressure limit?

[OldF]

Are these restrictor sizes published anywhere? What are likely power outputs of the 32mm and the 33mm? Is there a boost pressure limit?

I send an e-mail to Prodrive and asked: ”What is the difference between the Super Production version and the WRC version”.

I don’t know what the power would be but I’ve seen speculates between 290-300 hp for the WRC. If the WRC have 300 hp the SP maybe have about 280 hp.

The boost is 2,5 bar.

[Mirek]

Aha, that's very interesting.

[lancisti]

They say 35mm restrictor for WRC. (Motorsport Aktuell)

http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/2384/wrcw.jpg




lancisti :vader:

[OldF]

They say 35mm restrictor for WRC. (Motorsport Aktuell)

http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/2384/wrcw.jpg




lancisti :vader:

Maybe that’s a printing error.

[morganmilan]

Thnx OldF. Very interesting...So, if definitely true, I guess we have WRC cars, SP cars (N4 with "old restrictor" and less power would run in this class too) and 2WD cars (R1, R2 and R3). Three "big groups", and aside GT rally cars and old A8 WRC cars at some national championships. At least some light on this matter... :)

[oreixa]

On Portugal, Prodrive is testing a Super Production Mini and has a 33 mm restrictor.

[morganmilan]

As far as I know the Super Production includes the current S2000 and N4 (there was a super production for circuit few years ago). The 2011 version of S2000 doesn’t have an own “name”, so it could be called Super 1.6T, S1.6T, S2011 or something else.

The R4 is maybe an upgraded version of N4 to make them more competitive with current S2000. If that were true, then the Super production from 2011 would include the S2000, R4 and S1.6T.

A question on OldF post to our more experienced technician forumers...Would it be expectable that all SP cars (including old s2000, new R4 and new s1.6T) could fight between them with similar possibilities, or have they different levels? :confused: Thnx in advance

[bt52b]

A question on OldF post to our more experienced technician forumers...Would it be expectable that all SP cars (including old s2000, new R4 and new s1.6T) could fight between them with similar possibilities, or have they different levels? :confused: Thnx in advance

In theory I think all Super Production cars should be of similar performance, but some will always have the edge on the others. Hence N4 had some performace breaks this year, so they would be more competitive with 2.0l S2000.

It all mainly depends on the base weights and the restrictor sizes allowed. So when the rules for 2011 appear, maybe everyone might have better idea about what's going on.

I would bet 1.6l turbo will have the edge on the 2.0l cars, whom in turn have the edge on N4's.

[RS]

So it looks like the "Production" class including basic S2000 will get even more expensive?

[morganmilan]

So it looks like the "Production" class including basic S2000 will get even more expensive?
I´m afraid that´s true, as bt52b said on a post at this thread. New s1.6T will be for sure more expensive than s2000, unless FIA change parts rules ( I don´t think so, honestly...:rolleyes :) . It´s possible we´ll see more R4 cars at the future if they are cheaper than s2000 and s1.6T, and if power gap between them isn´t very significative.

[OldF]

It will be a lot more expensive. The starting price for super production (S2000) Mini is 346.000 GBP + VAT (about 415.000 €).
http://www.rallyforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=128975&page=180

By simplifying you could say that you have pay about 120.000 € (if S2000 = 300.000 €) for a turbo and an intercooler.


I would bet 1.6l turbo will have the edge on the 2.0l cars, whom in turn have the edge on N4's.

This is the marching order I think it’s going to be. Even if S1.6T and S2000 have equal power, the S1.6T is going to have lot more torque, I would say above 500 Nm compared to about 250 Nm for a S2000. It’s difficult to say anything about the upgraded N4 (R4?) without any information but it still will be a lot heavier than a S2000 or S1.6T.

[morganmilan]

So it´s the same old story: the fastest, the most expensive. The slowest, the cheapest. What I don´t really get to understand is the continuous blah-blah from FIA about cutting costs, when the rally car classes they design and rule are more and more expensive everyday... :(

[morganmilan]

Today, it´s supposed to be known news about 2011 rally car classes regulations after FIA meeting. Let´s wait and see what they do with R4, N4, restrictors size, new s1.6T class, etc.. :rolleyes:

[Sulland]

Still nothing ?

[morganmilan]

Not yet. We expect anxiously for news. I believe it´s important for immediate rallying future

[morganmilan]

The highly expected FIA meeting finished and we have no news :confused: . Old F said in other thread that Gerard Quinn talked about something on the end of October, but does anyone know anything about that? I can´t really understand how it´s so difficult stablish new? rally car classes and specifications, unless there is a lot of manufacturers pressure... :rolleyes:

[Mirek]

It's never easy when You have a lot of people with very different wishes, moreover speaking different languages...

[AndyRAC]

]It's never easy when You have a lot of people with very different wishes, moreover speaking different languages...

While it's not easy, but how about putting the sport first for once. Yeah, I'm naive......

[navtheace]

The rules could of easily gone R1, R2, R3, R4, R GT

if it was not for the three teams in WRC who are pushing ahead with the rules that allow the wifes shopping car to be hacked into a 4wd turbo powerhouse.

Will be very difficult to cancel the wrc 1.6 turbo class now that it has been allowed to go ahead.

Looks like S2000 will naturally expire as interest in that category gets less now that it is not allowed to in world rally championship events.

[AndyRAC]

The new classes would likely have a knock on what happens in National series. Compare Italy, Spain, France to UK. We have had 1 S2000, yeah, just 1 in our Premier series.

[Sulland]

The new classes would likely have a knock on what happens in National series.

Yes it will, and all national federations and manufacturers are waiting for FIA right now.

We are now 3 months from 2011, and still nothing. Did they not agree on anything on this meeting, and dont they at least publish minutes on the status and way ahead they discussed ?

FIA could try to become more open.....

[morganmilan]

The rules could of easily gone R1, R2, R3, R4, R GT
+1 :)

Looks like S2000 will naturally expire as interest in that category gets less now that it is not allowed to in world rally championship events.
Just a shame! We have some manufacturers at high level now, some private teams, too, and some privateer drivers all around Europe scoring good results. What´s the point of changing it with no alternative at the moment? :confused:

[morganmilan]

Yes it will, and all national federations and manufacturers are waiting for FIA right now.

We are now 3 months from 2011, and still nothing. Did they not agree on anything on this meeting, and dont they at least publish minutes on the status and way ahead they discussed ?

FIA could try to become more open.....
Completely right ;) Why not any information? Who are deciding the future of rallying: FIA or WRC manufacturers?

[AndyRAC]

Completely right ;) Why not any information? Who are deciding the future of rallying: FIA or WRC manufacturers?

If I were a betting man, the Manufacturers......

[Brother John]

Completely right ;) Why not any information? Who are deciding the future of rallying: FIA or WRC manufacturers?

Citroën and the FIA deciding the future of rallying! They are French. :rolleyes:

[Sulland]

Is this the French Revolution MkII ? :p

[Mirek]

if it was not for the three teams in WRC who are pushing ahead with the rules that allow the wifes shopping car to be hacked into a 4wd turbo powerhouse.

Actually only two manufacturers are pushing for R4 as highest category, all others for specially built rallycars.


Looks like S2000 will naturally expire as interest in that category gets less now that it is not allowed to in world rally championship events.

How did You come to such conclusion? S2000 are still allowed in WRC events, SWRC continues. Besides that almost all championships except WRC stay with S2000 next year. New SuperProduction cars are 90% same as S2000 cars also.

I know You hate S2000 forumula but there were 11 different cars homologated in four years of existence of this formula. That speaks itself enough.

[OldF]

I read one day on the Finnish ASN’s (AKK Motorsports) web site that Mitsubishi has announced that the Evo 10 will be their last N-group homologation (can’t find the article anymore). Can someone confirm this? Maybe they’ve realized not worth to struggle against the S2000 cars with the N-group regulations of today.

[AndyRAC]

I read one day on the Finnish ASN’s (AKK Motorsports) web site that Mitsubishi has announced that the Evo 10 will be their last N-group homologation (can’t find the article anymore). Can someone confirm this? Maybe they’ve realized not worth to struggle against the S2000 cars with the N-group regulations of today.

Why on earth the s2000's were ever put in the same class as the GpN's is beyond me. An S2000 could be classed as A7.5....Somewhere between A7 and A8. Completely different cars. And anyway, a Production car should be just that - with only safety features added. They've become way too expensive. More madness.

[navtheace]

]

How did You come to such conclusion? S2000 are still allowed in WRC events, SWRC continues. Besides that almost all championships except WRC stay with S2000 next year. New SuperProduction cars are 90% same as S2000 cars also.

I know You hate S2000 forumula but there were 11 different cars homologated in four years of existence of this formula. That speaks itself enough.


I think I have got it wrong then. I am confused as to what SWRC is? S2000 or Super Production.

What is Super Production? The Prodrive MINI is available as Super Production but it follows the production 4wd and engine of the MINI Countryman and not S2000? So it cannot be 90% of S2000 as Super Production is non bodywork modification?

I think?

[Mirek]

Aha, yes, You're a bit confused.

Super Production is almost same car as 1.6T WRC. The difference is smaller restrictor (32 instead of 33 mm), small kit car wing, less powerful brakes and some other small changes. But otherwise the cars will be same with same bodywork. Super Production (as called by Prodrive) is basically S2000 car with new engine and gearbox while new WRC is just further tuning of same design.

What Prodrive calls Super Production is not meant to be R4 car (I personally haven't seen any FIA official name for these 1.6T cars). Some people in FIA want to join S2000, Super Production 1.6T and R4 into one class later. We have to wait to see what it brings.

In 2011 SWRC is set only for pure S2000 cars (2.0 naturally aspirated engines). 1.6T cars can be classified only in general WRC classification.

[OldF]

I read one day on the Finnish ASN’s (AKK Motorsports) web site that Mitsubishi has announced that the Evo 10 will be their last N-group homologation (can’t find the article anymore). Can someone confirm this? Maybe they’ve realized not worth to struggle against the S2000 cars with the N-group regulations of today.

Know I found it again.

http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=fi&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=fi&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.autourheilu.fi%2Flajit%2Fralli% 2Ftiedotteet%2F26952.aspx

“Group N4 cars are manufactured in two car manufacturers: Mitsubishi, and Subaru. Mitsubishi has already announced earlier this year that the Evo X will be the last for classification of the Group N Lancer Evolution - indeed the world can always change. Subaru in turn, has recently been heavily flagged R4's motion. Therefore, pure N-group members really are vanishing folklore, which so far we have been uncertain, as some have suggested.”

But even if Mitsubishi wont homologate any new models the existing ones will be around for a while.

Evo 8: Homologations ends 2010
Evo 8 MR: 2011
Evo 9: 2014
Evo 10: 2016

[GigiGalliNo1]

Ok I'm not sure if this is the right place to ask but here I go regarding classes of rally cars in the current year 2010 and for next year in 2011's new class.

I heard that the current era of WRCars will be banned from use in the 2011 season. In France I noticed a 307WRCar and the old 206WRCar. Does that mean from next year even privateers won't be able to use these cars? I know I've seen other privateer drivers enter Grp A Mitsubishi Lancer Evos in some rallies but don't think they were banned? Same with the Impreza WRCars Ostberg (sorry re spelling).

Would this be right to say from 2011 all current 2010 and previous WRCars won't be allowed to be entered in any WRC event?

[navtheace]

The way I look at the world rally championship is that manufacturers will only be interested in their cars being in the top category.

Subaru and Mitsubishi are in a category where they are not in the top category. If R4 did become the top category, you would probably see M Sport push ford to make the Focus as a 4wd Turbo road car. Then other companies could follow.

Anyway, S1.6T is here now and how long it will be kept alive no one knows.

[RICARDO75]

Know I found it again.

http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=fi&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=fi&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.autourheilu.fi%2Flajit%2Fralli% 2Ftiedotteet%2F26952.aspx

“Group N4 cars are manufactured in two car manufacturers: Mitsubishi, and Subaru. Mitsubishi has already announced earlier this year that the Evo X will be the last for classification of the Group N Lancer Evolution - indeed the world can always change. Subaru in turn, has recently been heavily flagged R4's motion. Therefore, pure N-group members really are vanishing folklore, which so far we have been uncertain, as some have suggested.”

But even if Mitsubishi wont homologate any new models the existing ones will be around for a while.

Evo 8: Homologations ends 2010
Evo 8 MR: 2011
Evo 9: 2014
Evo 10: 2016

Are you shure about this homologations?
Evo 7 ends in 2010 but, I don´t know about Evo 8.
I know a guy that bought an Evo 8 for next season.

[OldF]

Are you shure about this homologations?
Evo 7 ends in 2010 but, I don´t know about Evo 8.
I know a guy that bought an Evo 8 for next season.

At least if you look at this list:
http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/1184C1738555C5AEC12577600038666D/$FILE/VoituresPays_Juillet2010.pdf (page 6)

or this:
http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/2B9ADB068E6862C1C125776000388DD5/$FILE/ToutesVoitures_Juillet2010.pdf (pages 34-36)

[RICARDO75]

You'r right.
But this list is for International events.
I think the Evo 8 can race on nationals and regionals

[OldF]

You'r right.
But this list is for International events.
I think the Evo 8 can race on nationals and regionals

That’s right. Every country’s ASN can decide which cars their championships uses.

[OldF]

I heard that the current era of WRCars will be banned from use in the 2011 season.

As far as I know, yes. No previous WRC cars in international FIA events.


In France I noticed a 307WRCar and the old 206WRCar. Does that mean from next year even privateers won't be able to use these cars?

Would this be right to say from 2011 all current 2010 and previous WRCars won't be allowed to be entered in any WRC event?

Same answer.

The Peugeot WRC homologation has expired but Peugeot 307 WRC homologation ends 2013.

http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/162C67556C78E81DC125767F004AF668/$FILE/03_Homologation-Fin-WRC-9-11-2009.pdf

What I think the case was in France was that there where two different rallies (WRC and a national rally) using the same roads. The same was it at NORF this year when there were historic cars and few previous years when national F-Cup cars were running part of the stages.


I know I've seen other privateer drivers enter Grp A Mitsubishi Lancer Evos in some rallies but don't think they were banned?

Must have been national rallies running parallel with WRC. The last Mitsubishi valid in group A was the Evo 8. Evo 8 MR, Evo 9 and Evo 10 are only valid in group N.

[GigiGalliNo1]

Thanks OldF

Funny to see that was your 555th post! :p

Thanks for the answer!

[OldF]

Thanks OldF

Funny to see that was your 555th post! :p

Thanks for the answer!

You’re welcome.

And I was talking about Mitsubishi and not Subaru 555. BTW, the homologation of the 555 Subaru ends this year.

[Mirek]

Homologation can be always prolonged. It's quite common.

[Mirek]

If R4 did become the top category, you would probably see M Sport push ford to make the Focus as a 4wd Turbo road car. Then other companies could follow.

Sorry, but that's too simplified. For building road car close to Evo/STI performance You don't need just 4WD but very sophisticated and expensive 4WD system. Subaru and Mitsubishi spent billions through those twenty years. Most of the manufacturers simply don't have necessary know how. Used systems are guarded by patent law etc. That all makes price sky high. Development and especially establishing production and post-sale services of such road car cost much more than to develop WRC car. Such process also takes 3-5 years for team of hundreds or thousands of people. Moreover such cars hardly make some profit because of high production cost and small market. Profit is the first thing which managers are interested in.

There's no way that Wilson comes to Ford leadership and tells them he needs stock 4WD semi-racing car and they just say ok, next year You have it. I'm working in automotive industry and know how pre-production activities usually run.

To make most common 4WD systems doesn't cost much and is easy task, that's true, but such simple systems with viscous clutch or something similar are pretty useless for competition.

[OldF]

Maybe there are some exceptions from this, I don’t know.

2.1.7
“Homologation of a series-produced car will become null and void 7 years after the date on which the series-production of the said model has been stopped (series-production under 10 % of the minimum production of the group considered).”

http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/018A1FDC760D10B1C1257690003DA7D6/$FILE/251%20(2010)-111209.pdf (http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/018A1FDC760D10B1C1257690003DA7D6/$FILE/251%20%282010%29-111209.pdf)

[Mirek]

I know about many cases when homologation was prolonged, sometimes repeatedly (Corolla WRC, Felicia Kit Car, Civic VTi etc.) ;)

[OldF]

Yes it’s true that it’s prolonged, probably automatically, as long as the production is going on. I’ve this http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/1184C1738555C5AEC12577600038666D/$FILE/VoituresPays_Juillet2010.pdf
list from last year and the end year for Evo 10 was 2015 but this year 2016. The Evo 10 was homologated 1.8.2008, so last year it was 2008 + 7 years = 2015 and this year (with required production 2009) 2009 + 7 = 2016.

[urabus-denoS2000]

This is true . Zastava Yugo had a valid FIA homologation until last year I believe when the production finally stopped . By then it was a 25 year old car , with a valid homologation

[GigiGalliNo1]

You’re welcome.

And I was talking about Mitsubishi and not Subaru 555. BTW, the homologation of the 555 Subaru ends this year.

Haha I know that but I noticed when I wrote a reply you had written you 555th post and funny we spoke of rally cars from the past :)

[uranium]

Is it true that in 2011 centrall diff is banned on WRC cars?
The same about gear shifting - it must be only standard gearstick. Is it correct?

[modri dirkac]

Correct.

[OldF]

That seems to bee the case. When I watched this video I start to wonder if that’s the case. He’s saying it in a way you could interpret that the eliminating is obligatory.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vB5YFONFJEY&feature=player_embedded

At about 3:30
“Concerning the transmissions, there are major evolutions, as we’ve had to eliminate the central differential.”

[Sulland]

What a good and descriptive film - impressed by Citroen Sport !

But shows that the new breed of WRCars will be expensive, and complicated.

[AndyRAC]

What a good and descriptive film - impressed by Citroen Sport !

But shows that the new breed of WRCars will be expensive, and complicated.

Which is the exact opposite of what was needed. But we all expected to happen.... :rolleyes:

[OldF]

What a good and descriptive film - impressed by Citroen Sport !

But shows that the new breed of WRCars will be expensive, and complicated.

Complicated? The new WRC cars haven’t even a central differential, all have a control turbo, the same dampers all around, no paddle shift (yet). Tommi Mäkinen also told in an interview that the regulations are very strict, even the angles are defined. I don’t know what he meant with the angles but probably the lower arms in the suspension. I also read in a magazine that the camshaft timings would be defined in the regulations.

The engine has to last for six rallies so it must be quite robust. BTW, the maintenance interval for the Mini’s engine, gearbox, turbo and rear differential is 1.500 stage km. What will happen if the three first rallies have 500 stage km?

At the bottom: http://www.motoringfile.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/Mini-rally-car-sales-package.pdf

But they’re still not cheap and maybe not that simple as I tried convince. :)

[serial jeff]

So what takes the place of the center differential? Viscous coupling?

[OldF]

Nothing. The front and rear axles have permanent coupling which means that one front wheel and one rear wheel always are spinning with the same speed. Here in Finland it’s called a kemp lock. And why? Look at this link and picture.

http://www.kemppi.com/inet/kemppi/en/akp.nsf/frameset/Frameset?OpenDocument&content=/inet/kemppi/frontpage.nsf/0/36CE80204C82A01DC225777B0042D7E9?opendocument&showtop=0

Application:

http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w121/Hel-racing/DSC02531.jpg

[uranium]

even the angles are defined. I don’t know what he meant with the angles

probably ignition angles, no?

[uranium]

Nothing. The front and rear axles have permanent coupling which means that one front wheel and one rear wheel always are spinning with the same speed.

Take a look
http://www.autoblog.com/photos/paris-2010-mini-countryman-wrc/med/#3422698

There is button DIFF LOCK. What is the purpose, if no central diff and both rear and front are mechanical?

[OldF]

Take a look
http://www.autoblog.com/photos/paris-2010-mini-countryman-wrc/med/#3422698

There is button DIFF LOCK. What is the purpose, if no central diff and both rear and front are mechanical?

I don’t have the slightest idea. Even the WRC cars today are not allowed front and rear differentials that can be adjusted when the car is motion.

"None of the parameters of the front and rear differentials can be modified except with the help of tools when the car is stopped."

[Rally Power]

Complicated? The new WRC cars haven’t even a central differential, all have a control turbo, the same dampers all around, no paddle shift (yet). Tommi Mäkinen also told in an interview that the regulations are very strict, even the angles are defined. I don’t know what he meant with the angles but probably the lower arms in the suspension. I also read in a magazine that the camshaft timings would be defined in the regulations.

The engine has to last for six rallies so it must be quite robust. BTW, the maintenance interval for the Mini’s engine, gearbox, turbo and rear differential is 1.500 stage km. What will happen if the three first rallies have 500 stage km?



Good news OldF.
At least in a couple of years WRC cars will be less expensive, but shouldn't SP (S1.6T) versions be more afordable, in order to keep actual S2000 costs?
Why doesn't FIA oblige SP cars to use a detuned version of the 1.6T engine?

[OldF]

Good news OldF.
At least in a couple of years WRC cars will be less expensive, but shouldn't SP (S1.6T) versions be more afordable, in order to keep actual S2000 costs?
Why doesn't FIA oblige SP cars to use a detuned version of the 1.6T engine?

The WRC cars will be less expensive but the S2000 (Super Production) more expensive. The starting price for a SP Mini is 346.000 £ (~415.000 €). The WRC version can’t be much more because the only difference is bigger rear wing, front bumper, front brakes and 33 mm restrictor. The SP version has 32 mm restrictor.

Although the price of WRC cars have gone down recent years (after ban of active front and rear diffs and titanium parts), the price of a WRC car today is higher compared to a 2011 WRC.

[OldF]

Take a look
http://www.autoblog.com/photos/paris-2010-mini-countryman-wrc/med/#3422698

There is button DIFF LOCK. What is the purpose, if no central diff and both rear and front are mechanical?

Now I figured out an explanation for the ”diff lock” button. Prodrive was in such hurry to prepare the Mini for the Paris show that they took the panel from a Subaru WRC. :)

[navtheace]

Now I figured out an explanation for the ”diff lock” button. Prodrive was in such hurry to prepare the Mini for the Paris show that they took the panel from a Subaru WRC. :)

They also took the wing from a Blob Eye Impreza to put on the back of the MINI. LOL

seehere

http://uk.cars.yahoo.com/30092010/36/t3/paris-2010-mini-countryman-wrc-0.html

[Sulland]

They also took the wing from a Blob Eye Impreza to put on the back of the MINI. LOL

seehere

http://uk.cars.yahoo.com/30092010/36/t3/paris-2010-mini-countryman-wrc-0.html

Hopefully the final wing won't be as ugly as this one !

[morganmilan]

I´ve read in other thread from Prorally that next 3th of November will be held FIA meeting. Must we expect final rules about rally car classes then, especially R classes? :confused:

[OldF]

Let’s hope so.

I read on the Finnish ASN’s web page that’s Subaru that wants the R4.

[ToughMac]

The FIA are really taking their eye off the ball here. Just imagine if you just started following rallying would you continue following the sport and try and figure out all these new class systems. Think they should select a few classes without any crossover of models from different classes just to make things clearer. There should also be a homologation limit on the class itself rather than on a manufactured model. This should indicate how long a life a class will have before a manufacturer commits to development.

[navtheace]

Let’s hope so.

I read on the Finnish ASN’s web page that’s Subaru that wants the R4.

Mit and Subaru have been pushing hard for R4 which is basically GpN as it is now with some extras like bigger hole turbo restrictor and few other mods to make the class as good as any top end world rally car.

[Mirek]

No R4 is not meant to be a counterpart to WRC cars but to S2000 and Super Production cars (S2000 with 1.6T engine with smaller restrictor). All of them are supposed to run in one class since 2012.

[OldF]

That’s how I also see it. R4 would be in the same class as S2000 and super production. R4 couldn’t even be a WRC because from 2011 a WRC car has to have a 1.6 turbo engine and Mitsubishi and Subaru are 2.0 litre.

[morganmilan]

No R4 is not meant to be a counterpart to WRC cars but to S2000 and Super Production cars (S2000 with 1.6T engine with smaller restrictor). All of them are supposed to run in one class since 2012.
Things seem to be clear reading this, since 2012, but what on earth with 2011? R4 cars are supposed to be homologated along next year, and we´ll have s2000 and super production cars. Engines are different, power is different, parts are different...Are all of them supposed to compete in same class?

[Sulland]

This all seems like a mess right now, but will be crystal clear once FIA have decided something ! :rolleyes: Yeah right !!

[uranium]

I am sorry if I missed something. Can you please explain difference between Super production and current PWRC? What cars as example belongs to super production? Will it be separate cup in WRC like SWRC this year or what? Thanks!

[morganmilan]

This all seems like a mess right now, but will be crystal clear once FIA have decided something ! :rolleyes: Yeah right !!
You´re right Sulland ;) Repeat with me: FIA will do it right this time, FIA will do it right this time... :D

[Mirek]

Things seem to be clear reading this, since 2012, but what on earth with 2011? R4 cars are supposed to be homologated along next year, and we´ll have s2000 and super production cars. Engines are different, power is different, parts are different...Are all of them supposed to compete in same class?

In the moment there is still no existing class R4, so this is a bit precocious problem :)

Any 1.6T 4x4 car including Super production cars will be allowed only in WRC in 2011 (speaking about FIA championships and IRC, otherwise it's up to ASN).


I am sorry if I missed something. Can you please explain difference between Super production and current PWRC? What cars as example belongs to super production? Will it be separate cup in WRC like SWRC this year or what? Thanks!

Super production has nothing to do with production cars. It's just misleading name which is unofficially used for S2000 cars with 1.6T engine. Such cars are basically same as new WRC but have smaller restrictor, less powerful brakes and small wing. They are meant to be used outside WRC as main competition class along with classic S2000 (which new homologations are stopped at the end of this year) and production cars maybe transformed into R4 (whole complex class will be called R4 probably).

[Sulland]

FIA will do it right this time, FIA will do it right this time...







:beer:





:arrows:

[OldF]

I am sorry if I missed something. Can you please explain difference between Super production and current PWRC? What cars as example belongs to super production? Will it be separate cup in WRC like SWRC this year or what? Thanks!

Go to the first page of this thread.

[morganmilan]

[quote="Sulland"]FIA will do it right this time, FIA will do it right this time...
Well done Sulland!! Sure FIA pay attention to us!! :D

[navtheace]

Things to be clearer on classes this Weds as FIA meeting for rallying.

Hopefully?

[OldF]

I was looking if there’s any changes in the Finnish championship for 2011 and found this.

“Four-wheel drive Category

Four-wheel drive class i.e. SM1 in competition for more than 2000 cm3 of N-group, the FIA Super 2000 and R4 Rally rules. FIA R4 is new in season 2011, the classification rules are valid early 2011, so let’s see if they make it for the season.”

http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=fi&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=fi&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rallism.fi%2Fsarja%2F

[morganmilan]

I was looking if there’s any changes in the Finnish championship for 2011 and found this.

“Four-wheel drive Category

Four-wheel drive class i.e. SM1 in competition for more than 2000 cm3 of N-group, the FIA Super 2000 and R4 Rally rules. FIA R4 is new in season 2011, the classification rules are valid early 2011, so let’s see if they make it for the season.”

http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=fi&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=fi&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rallism.fi%2Fsarja%2F
So, I assume that in finnish championship would fight in same category N4 cars (Sub and Mits), s2000 cars and R4 cars as Renault Megane (I don´t think none of them will really run in Finland but...)? And new super production 1.6 T too?

[Mirek]

Megane won't run in Finland because it won't be made in gravel spec.

[morganmilan]

Megane won't run in Finland because it won't be made in gravel spec.
And has any manufacturer plans to develop another new R4 car for gravel or is it absurd because of 2wd matter as we talked on another thread? By the way, thnx a lot to Mirek and Old F. They´re clearing me a lot that confusing map of rally car classes ;)

[Mirek]

Subaru for sure wants to make Impreza R4 to make it more competitive but that will stay 4WD.

[morganmilan]

Trying to clear myself on this thread issue, and with other forumers´settings and opinions I´ve made this:


CLASS


GROUP


WD


CC


ALIMT


MODF


COMB


MAKE


MOD


WRC


WRC


4


1.6


turbo


max


gas


Ford


Citroen


MiniBMW


Fiesta WRC


DS3WRC


WRC


SP


P


4


1.6


turbo


high


gas








S2


4


2.0


atm


nigh


gas


Skod


Peugeot


Fiat


Proton


Ford


VW


Fabia S2000


207 S2000


Punto S2000


Satria S2000


Fiesta S2000


Polo S2000


N4


4


2.0


turbo


low


gas


Mitsub


Subaru


Lancer


Impreza


R4C


F2


2


2.0


turbo


low


gas


Renault


Megane


R3C


2


2.0


atm


med


gas


Renault


Honda


Clio


Civic


R3TB


2


1.6


turbo


med


gas


Citroen


Peugeot


Fiat


DS3 RT


207 RC


500 R3T


R3DC


2


2.0


atm


med


diesel


Fiat


Punto


R2C


2


2.0


atm


low


gas








R2B


2


1.6


atm


low


gas


Citroen


Ford


Renault


Skoda


C2 R2


Fiesta R2


Twingo R2


Fabia R2


R1B


2


1.6


atm


min


gas


Renault


Twingo R1


R1A


2


1.4


atm


min


gas






Is it right? I suppose some homologated cars aren´t there...

[morganmilan]

Subaru for sure wants to make Impreza R4 to make it more competitive but that will stay 4WD.
Thnx Mirek :) . So we must wait until next Wednesday to see if N4 remains the same or we have R4 or... :rolleyes:

[morganmilan]

FIA has decided today to create R4 class with 2.0 turbocharged cars. By now we have Mitsub Lancer, Subaru Impreza and Megane N4 at N4 but all of them become already R4, or must the makes develop the kit mentioned by FIA?

[morganmilan]

[quote="Mirek"]In the moment there is still no existing class R4, so this is a bit precocious problem :)
But now Mirek, do you think all exN4, s2000 and new superproduction 1.6T cars are going to run in same class?

[morganmilan]

Subaru for sure wants to make Impreza R4 to make it more competitive but that will stay 4WD.
I suppose then Mitsubishi have no plans about that, do they?

[Mirek]

But now Mirek, do you think all exN4, s2000 and new superproduction 1.6T cars are going to run in same class?

Yes, should be that way since 2012.

[OldF]

FIA has decided today to create R4 class with 2.0 turbocharged cars. By now we have Mitsub Lancer, Subaru Impreza and Megane N4 at N4 but all of them become already R4, or must the makes develop the kit mentioned by FIA?

N4 stays N4. They have to homologate the kit before they are R4 (and also install it).

[morganmilan]

Thnx to both of you again ;)

[navtheace]

Is it true that no new S2000 (as in 2 litre no turbo) cars will be homologated?

Is this the FIA phasing them out?

[Sulland]

Is it true that no new S2000 (as in 2 litre no turbo) cars will be homologated?

Is this the FIA phasing them out?

They will in the future become 1,6T instead of 2,0 NA.

[morganmilan]

With the information collected in the forum I´ve made this table (attachment) with some information of current homologated and rather usual rally cars and their adscription to existing classes. I hope to be right, otherwise any advertising would be welcome. Thnx in advance! ;)

[navtheace]

Yep, as in 2 litre cars (no turbo) are no longer being homologated. As in they will 'dissapear' over time.

So it is just R4 and WRC (1.6 turbo)

[Mirek]

No, You understand that wrong.

Current S2000 formula stays as it is, it only changes engine from 2.0 N/A to 1.6T (31 mm restrictor) and it's name.

New WRC cars are further tunned S2000 cars with 1.6T (33 mm restrictor), large wing, better brakes etc.

Since 2012 they want to have WRC cars as top class for World Rally Championship and below that a joint class for new R4 cars (further tunned N4), old N4, new 1.6T superproduction (S2000 with 1.6T engine) and old S2000.

[navtheace]

Ok, let me make it clearer

If a manufacturer was to today bring out a NEW rally car to S2000 spec 2 LITRE ENGINE with 4WD.

Will the FIA give it homologation? YES or NO?

[OldF]

Ok, let me make it clearer

If a manufacturer was to today bring out a NEW rally car to S2000 spec 2 LITRE ENGINE with 4WD.

Will the FIA give it homologation? YES or NO?

YES.

The last day for homologation with a 2000 cm3 NA engine will be 31.12.2010 or most probably the date when FIA has it last homologation meeting 2010.

[navtheace]

Thanks :)

That is what I was asking about. As in the S2000 cars will now fade away over time as no more willl be homologated after next month.

[OldF]

Thanks :)

That is what I was asking about. As in the S2000 cars will now fade away over time as no more willl be homologated after next month.

S2000 cars with 2000 cm3 NA engine will fade away but they will be around for a while. The homologation will be valid for seven years after the production has stopped for the model which the S2000 is based on. For the homologation to continue, I think it needs some action from the manufacturer that sufficient amount of the model in question has been manufactured.

But as I understand it, it will be possible to replace the 2000 cm3 NA with a 1600 cm3 turbo engine in S2000 car homologated before 2011.

“The World Council adopted new cost-controlling technical regulations for the Regional Rally Championships to permit the adaptation of the current Super 2000 cars to the new 1.6L turbo engine.”

http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre/pressreleases/wmsc/2010/Pages/wmsc_230610.aspx

“From 2011, S2000 cars (1.6L turbo and 2.0L normally aspirated) and Group N cars will be eligible for the WRC and all FIA Regional Rally Championships. In addition, from 2011, all new homologations of S2000 cars must be fitted with a 1.6L turbo engine.”

http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre/pressreleases/wmsc/2009/Pages/wmsc_111209.aspx

[Mirek]

Thanks :)

That is what I was asking about. As in the S2000 cars will now fade away over time as no more willl be homologated after next month.

Yes and no. It doesn't matter how the new cars will be called. Regulations are same except engine and both old 2000 ccm S2000 and new 1600T ccm "S2000" will be in same class. So yes, S2000 will disappear with the time but also no, since they are going to be replaced by exactly same formula with just different engine.

[navtheace]

Who will buy the ex WRC 2 litre cars now the last rally of the season has been completed?

[Sulland]

National series that still allow them, Collectors, RallyCross, drifting and maybe people that want them on the street. The price will go down for a while, and then go up again I guess.

[navtheace]

Guess they will become a bit like GpB cars in that people will enjoy seeing them at events and motorsport exhibitions doing demo runs etc.

I am happy that this era of rallying is over. Bodykitted Focus in my opinion looked very untidy, they cant even match the rear bumper up with the arches. C4 I hate as the road car from the start.

Many people said that the interest is coming back big time with the new rules for 2011. Reality is that it is so far looking like Citroen Vs M Sport battling for Gold with the looser taking Silver, with Prodrive guaranteed a bronze medal on each event.

[DonJippo]

Who will buy the ex WRC 2 litre cars now the last rally of the season has been completed?

The one Wilson Jr was driving in WRGB was sold to Estonia, was shipped there straight after the event.

[Mirek]

Armindo Araujo with R4 Evo X in Monza Rally Show (at least with sequential gearbox).

[morganmilan]

Armindo Araujo with R4 Evo X in Monza Rally Show (at least with sequential gearbox).
Has Mitsubishi homologated the kit to convert N4 to R4 so soon? :eek:

[Mirek]

It doesn't need to be homologated for Monza Show.

[morganmilan]

It doesn't need to be homologated for Monza Show.
Indeed. Sorry, my fault. Thnx

[Mirek]

No problem :)

[navtheace]

Any news on the full list of classes for 2011? Or still waiting for official FIA news?

R1
R2
R3
R3T - 1.6 or 2 litre FWD - Restrictor size?
R3D - diesel 2 litre FWD or myth?
R4 - Confirmed but nothing mentioned on restrictor size yet?
Super Production - 1.6 turbo and restrictor size?
GT - coming during 2011 as things still being evaluated.
WRC - 1.6 turbo - restrictor size is confirmed as?

[OldF]

Any news on the full list of classes for 2011? Or still waiting for official FIA news?

R1
R2
R3
R3T - 1.6 or 2 litre FWD - Restrictor size?
R3D - diesel 2 litre FWD or myth?
R4 - Confirmed but nothing mentioned on restrictor size yet?
Super Production - 1.6 turbo and restrictor size?
GT - coming during 2011 as things still being evaluated.
WRC - 1.6 turbo - restrictor size is confirmed as?

R1 – R3, R3T and R3D has been clear for a while already.

R3T = 29 mm (20,5 mm if two turbos)
R3D = 32 mm (22,6 mm if two turbos)

Super production = 32 mm / 2,5 bar boost (not yet confirmed anywhere)
WRC = 33 mm / 2,5 bar boost (not yet confirmed anywhere)

The only open issue is R4 but it’s only two weeks ago FIA decided to create R4. Maybe we have more information after the WMSC meeting in December.

[Barreis]

R3D, does it must have sequential gearbox?

[OldF]

R3D, does it must have sequential gearbox?

It can have but doesn’t to have. It’s up to the manufacturer what they’ve decided to homologate.

About half way starts the English section.

R1-R3:

http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/11E1E76537B2F946C12576E30050CFEE/$FILE/260_10-11.pdf

R3T & R3D:

"Article 260 (for Type R3 cars) applies to cars in Groups R3D and R3T with the exception of the Articles mentioned below:"

http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/531A86F145B26593C12576900040C811/$FILE/260D%20%282010%29-031209.pdf

[OldF]

I hadn’t been reading the GP Week for I while but today I catch up.

In issue 105 (page 46) there’s a story about the 2011 WRC cars rules. By the story it’s decided that the WRC cars restrictor is 33 mm (and 2,5 bar) but the restrictor size for the S2000 1.6 turbo engine has not yet been decided “as experience is being gained as to equivalence between old 2-litre atmospheric and the 1.6-litre turbo units”.

Mirek said (post #107) that the restrictor size would be 31 mm for the S2000. First I considered it as a spelling error but I’m not so sure anymore. How is it Mirek. Was it a spelling mistake or do you know something? ;)

The min weight for both WRC and S2000 will be 1200 kg.

http://mag.gpweek.com/?iid=41840

In the short news they say that M-Sport will continue to use a 2-litre NA engine in the S2000 and doesn’t have any current plan to update the car with the 1.6-litre turbo engine.

[Mirek]

I don't know anything for sure. Just heard 31 mm from more sources than 32 mm :)

[OldF]

Ok, thanks.

If the aim for the S2000 1.6T is somewhere between 280-300 PS with a 31 mm restrictor, the WRC version could have about 315-335 PS with the about 13% (area) bigger restrictor.