Tony George trying to purchase IRL

[Easy Drifter]

This according to Robin Miller on Wind Tunnel tonight.
He was turned down but apparently plans to have another try.
Just who does own the series now?
Should he ever succeed we might as well forget any chance of revival.
I just hope he doesn't go and try to start another series again, although without IMS he would probably fail very quickly.
The comment did not elict much of a reponse from DeSpain.

[Will Rogers]

I saw him talking with Kevin Kalkhoven outside of the Andretti Autosport hospitality area last night (Saturday) at the Chicagoland race...

[ICWS]

I believe that the series is still owned by Hulman and Co.

[speeddurango]

TG will act like a puppet of the team owners. This shall bring the sttus of Indycar to the CART days. The management format of CART was quite good until TG managed to elicit enough many teams to irl that ultimately leads to CART's downfall. So if the teams could have a better control of the series through TG, it wouldn't be too bad but then there may develop yet another strift between speedway and teams.

[Jag_Warrior]

Well, AOWR is about half dead now. Ol Tony Boy returning should pretty much put a final bullet in its head. And the Penguin and the Boy Wonder are talking? No! Say it ain't so, Batman!

Get Andy Evans, Jon Vannini, James Grosfeld and Joe Heitzler in the mix and we'll have a regular Rogue's Gallery of Racing running what's left of this ship of fools onto the rocks.

[Lousada]

Ah, Tony George is seeing visions again. Amazing how naive that guy is. 20 Years and 600 million on and he still doesn't realize people use him like a little puppet.

[Will Rogers]

If we could get Tony George and Paul Gentilozzi to buy Indy Car, we'd have the perfect storm, the theoretically inescapable black hole that from which nothing good would emerge...

[Marbles]

I cringed when I read that lengthy post ousting interview with George when he stated about what bothered him most about his early dismissal:

"I have unfinished business."

Hello in there, Tony.

I cringe once again.

[SarahFan]

why am I not suprised

[Scotty G.]

Would you rather have Bill France or Bruton Smith owning the Indy Car series instead? Because, that could happen down the road.

The Hulman sisters don't want to own this thing. Its a money LOSER.

If Tony keeps Randy The Savior as the CEO, then what will be the problem?

Right now, you have a group (the Hulman sisters) that know nothing about racing. You have Jeff Belskus, who knows nothing about racing. And you have Randy Bernard, who knows nothing about racing. Might not be a bad thing, to actually have one guy in charge, who does have a racing background.

[garyshell]

Might not be a bad thing, to actually have one guy in charge, who does have a racing background.


Because he did such a GREAT job demonstrating how much he REALLY knew about racing from 1996 to the present? Uh huh. Sure.

Gary

[downtowndeco]

I wouldn't mind seeing him back. It's been what, a year or more since he left? And all we've heard is bitching and moaning about how things are now being run. The current car count was something that he had a big hand in, as he set up the formula to make it affordable. The Izod sponsorship? Well into the works and the groundwork had been laid when he was shown the door. You can already see the chinks in the armor with some of the bigger teams wanting to flex their muscle (purely self serving) and starting to back track about the new chassis. Yeah. That's what we need Chip.

Like him or not (and I realize most here don't) Tony has a passion for Indycar racing & IMS that few others have. Bring him back. At the very least it would give some of you guys something new to complain about.

[EagleEye]

Well, AOWR is about half dead now. Ol Tony Boy returning should pretty much put a final bullet in its head. And the Penguin and the Boy Wonder are talking? No! Say it ain't so, Batman!

Get Andy Evans, Jon Vannini, James Grosfeld and Joe Heitzler in the mix and we'll have a regular Rogue's Gallery of Racing running what's left of this ship of fools onto the rocks.

I could not have said it any better. Look out though, a "new member" will post his support for Jargon Joe, before fading away....

[SarahFan]

I wouldn't mind seeing him back. .

why am i not suprised

[downtowndeco]

Hey, no problem I wouldn't want to dissapoint you.


why am i not suprised

[Dr. Krogshöj]

News like this make you watch a NASCAR or an F1 race (depending on your preferences).

[beachbum]

And all of you believe everything that comes out of Robin's mouth?

[Jag_Warrior]

Would you rather have Bill France or Bruton Smith owning the Indy Car series instead? Because, that could happen down the road.

You mean a choice between businessmen with successful track records or a guy who won the lucky sperm lottery and who's never even tripped over success? Guys who almost always produce profits for their investors or a guy who has burned through something like half a billion dollars and has nothing but lower ratings and empty seats to show for it? If that's my choice, I'll go with the A Team... and I'll pass on the F Team.


The Hulman sisters don't want to own this thing. Its a money LOSER.


I think you're right. But outside of IMS's annual subsidy to keep it alive, the IRL is dead as a doornail. Tony doesn't have the $15-$20 million required annually to keep it going. And unless things get better fairly soon, more may be needed.


If Tony keeps Randy The Savior as the CEO, then what will be the problem?
$, $ and more $. The same reason that most of the "good ideas" that people have here aren't going to happen. Short of sponsorships (which are not forthcoming), where is the money going to come from???



Right now, you have a group (the Hulman sisters) that know nothing about racing. You have Jeff Belskus, who knows nothing about racing. And you have Randy Bernard, who knows nothing about racing. Might not be a bad thing, to actually have one guy in charge, who does have a racing background.

Considering what his "racing background" actually is, that's damning him with faint praise. There were many daggers that delivered blows to Caesar. But the one history remembers best is that of Brutus. And Tony is our "Brutus". Other people have contributed to AOWR's demise, but Tony's dagger seemed to have the most blood on it, IMO.

[bblocker68]

Ummmmm, What? I thought I was just waking up from this nightmare...........

[anthonyvop]

There is another big player looking into buying the IRL.


And I really hope it happens.

[IowaBoyinIndy]

There is another big player looking into buying the IRL.


And I really hope it happens.

Ok Anthony I will bite. Is it...

1) Mr. Menard
2) Mr. E
3) France family
4) other?

[Chris R]

The McMahon's? (WWE family)
Bruton Smith?
Dieter Man... (Red bull Dude)??
Hugo Chavez?
:D

[Hoop-98]

Are you implying that there are two parties besides TG who might be looking at it? :D

gee, seems like the IRL is a lot more worthy than I would have guessed Anthony...

[Scotty G.]

gee, seems like the IRL is a lot more worthy than I would have guessed Anthony...

Buy low and sell high.

The sport now is as good as dead.

Do anything positive at this point, and you end up looking good (no matter who ends up buying it).

[NickFalzone]

Next thing you know, Tony George will be kicking IndyCar out of IMS and starting the DeltaWing Racing League. All ovals (including the biggest race in the world) and only American drivers. Chip Ganassi will be the first owner to shift allegiances, many others will be soon to follow. It is sure to be the biggest thing ever in American racing, NASCAR look out.

[nigelred5]

:eek:

[SarahFan]

:eek:


Because at the end of the day you still respect the teams and drivers that are willing to hang it out at 220+ on Sundays.....


It's the folks in power (and a few posters) that seriously F'ed up!

[SarahFan]

:eek:


Because at the end of the day you still respect the teams and drivers that are willing to hang it out at 220+ on Sundays.....


It's the folks in power (and a few posters) that Are seriously F'ed up!

[SoCalPVguy]

Re. Tony George trying to purchase IRL


Quote Seinfeld: "Nothing good can come of this "

[maxmach]

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo............

[call_me_andrew]

Would you rather have Bill France or Bruton Smith owning the Indy Car series instead? Because, that could happen down the road.

Bill France is dead so that would actually be kinda cool.

[Chris R]

Bill France is dead so that would actually be kinda cool. it would certainly make headlines...

back to Scotty's question - sad to say, but I thin I would prefer Bruton Smith or the France family to own it. But realistically that is like asking your preferred method of your own execution.....

[Mark in Oshawa]

Ah yes...all those who support Tony, stick your hands up. Nice and high now...so we can identify you all and send the mental health authorities to put you away where you cannot hurt yourself....

Tony was a dismal failure of running a race league. Just like all the idiots than ran CART were dismal failures in the end. All of them blew through money like it was water, forgot the guy in the stands and watching on TV wasn't impressed, and didn't notice that NASCAR was paying attention to what they want.

No...If someone is going to either kill off the IRL, or supplement it, they would be village idiots to let Tony any where NEAR it.

They need 4 things: Lots of capital, because they will lose a TON of money, a big TV contract and firm and intelligent leadership. The fourth, the Indy 500.

so...for the IRL to either Die or be sold off requires all of the above.

A unnamed 5th requirement should be a leader who knows business and marketing....

Now..which organization left in the racing world ticks off all those boxes save the 500? NASCAR. Which organization owns the 500? IMS and the Hulmans....

They have smart people (despite Brian France's missteps, he is a rocket scientest compared to anyone in OW before Bernard..on him the jury is still out).god knows they have the capital, and they have the clout to make a TV deal better than that crap deal we see with VS.

If NASCAR wants to risk Anti Trust, they could make a play for the IRL, and I think the Hulman's would give them promotional rights at the Speedway and let them run the 500.

IT is doable if NASCAR ownership wants it to happen. There is not a doubt in my mind it is doable. Tony George however, would be be the last thing you need.....

Like Gloria what's her face said about women needing a man like a fish needs a bicycle, a racing series needs Tony George about AS much.

The only guy who thinks Tony is capable of actually running anything more complex than a lemonade stand is Tony....

[Jag_Warrior]

I'd much rather see Bubbles buy and run the series instead of Boy George. He's the smart one of the bunch.

http://www.wallpaperbase.com/wallpapers/movie/trailerparkboys/trailer_park_boys_1.jpg

For that matter, I'd rather see Mr. Lahey buy the series and run it. When he's not on the liquor, he's twice as smart as Tony George. Heck, even when he is, he's still smarter than TG.

Have another one, boy! Have another one!
http://www.showcase.ca/blog/photos/tv/images/55752/300x327.aspx

[methanolHuffer]

I gotta hand it to TG. He really doesn't care a how bad he looks. He doesn't care about how many people laugh at him.

I always thought that he had no shame but now I understand him.

[nanders]

Right now, you have a group (the Hulman sisters) that know nothing about racing.

I guarantee you, the sisters and their children all know everything about Indy Car racing. These people are not living in a vacuum. Indy Car racing is their identity. The kind of decisions they have to make are difficult in this economic climate.

[garyshell]

I guarantee you, the sisters and their children all know everything about Indy Car racing. These people are not living in a vacuum. Indy Car racing is their identity. The kind of decisions they have to make are difficult in this economic climate.

Uh huh, the silver spoons in their mouth sisters and their spawn are total students of all things racing. And I have a couple of bridges for sale too, are you interested?

Gary

[SarahFan]

Gary...are you suggesting that the sisters and the extended george/hulman family dont understand racing, the biz of racing.... and how the two relate to the speedway and the 500?

[Lousada]

Gary...are you suggesting that the sisters and the extended george/hulman family dont understand racing, the biz of racing.... and how the two relate to the speedway and the 500?

Well, 15 years of IRL can hardly be called a succes...

[Easy Drifter]

In my opinion, if the Sisterhood had really understood racing TG would have never been allowed to do what he did, or even if allowed, stopped long before he was.
They may have a better grasp now but my feeling is they realize they are not the ones to run things. I do think and hope they are smart enough to find people who can do the job and leave them to it.
They certainly seem to have done a pretty good job in getting Randy Bernard who so far has improved the situation. It will be a long time job to restore major league open wheel racing in NA and sorting out previous mistakes like the TV deal and Brian Barnhart.

[garyshell]

Gary...are you suggesting that the sisters and the extended george/hulman family dont understand racing, the biz of racing.... and how the two relate to the speedway and the 500?


Pretty much, yes. Outside of Mary and Tony, I don't think the rest of them have shown much interest outside of collecting their monthly checks. As much as I abhor him, Tony was the only one of the kids who seemed to have ANY interest whatsoever.

Gary

[SarahFan]

Pretty much, yes. Outside of Mary and Tony, I don't think the rest of them have shown much interest outside of collecting their monthly checks. As much as I abhor him, Tony was the only one of the kids who seemed to have ANY interest whatsoever.

Gary

did he really ever have a heartfelt interest...or was he just groomed to be the heir apparant?

and i wouldnt discount Josie

[nigelred5]

They don't know squat about running a racing series, but I suppose they bake a pretty good cake. I have to say I support them a little. Can't make my cornbread without some good baking powder.

[garyshell]

did he really ever have a heartfelt interest...or was he just groomed to be the heir apparant?

and i wouldnt discount Josie


Both I think. I never doubted King George's passion for the place, only his "vision".

Is Josie his daughter? If so, yes you are right, I would not discount her either. I'd forgotten about her.

Gary

[SarahFan]

Both I think. I never doubted King George's passion for the place, only his "vision".

Is Josie his daughter? If so, yes you are right, I would not discount her either. I'd forgotten about her.

Gary

josie is the sister and lauren is the daughter.....I think

[nanders]

Gary...are you suggesting that the sisters and the extended george/hulman family dont understand racing, the biz of racing.... and how the two relate to the speedway and the 500?

Hulman/George/Krisiloff

The "spawn" know well the inner workings of the Speedway and the Indy Car and Lights series and are very serious about their future. Tony Sr. will never own the series and this little skirmish over the Delta Wing, which I'm all for, will subside and a compromise will be reached. We are now in an era where the spawn are being actively prepped to run things.

They know that the basic concept of lowering the maximum weight and keeping the power to weight is strong ... but expensive. Before they can make that move they need to have willing commercial and technical allies in the fold. Remember the Delta Wing concept is not just about one cars design but about competitive car designs overall.

The 2012 car is an interim design that they hope gets them to a lighter car once the allies come in to the series. The Delta Wing concept would be a interim package that eventually gets them to alternative propulsion.

They are working hard to get to a place where they can open up the rules because they really want technical competition.

[Mark in Oshawa]

This argument that the Hulman/George/Krisoloff's understand racing is a good one.

I just came back from Indy. Went to the museum, saw the history on film of how Tony Hulman saved the place. Now of course, one can argue a lot of things, but I think Tony Hulman understood the trust he had undertaken with that old track at 16th and Georgetown, but I know from what I have read and discerned I don't really think he understood racing. He created basically the USAC to run OW racing after the Triple A people gave up the rights to be the governing body. He filled a vacuum that needed to be filled with that decision, but let no one be fooled, there was a reason CART was founded to eventually supplant USAC.

It all comes back to are people who run the IRL and IMS competant to do both jobs. No...history has proven they cannot. Tony Hulman attempted it and to an extent did, but I think the seeds of dissent were there in the 70's when he was still alive. Once he was gone, maybe the owners took liberties? Maybe so....but if you are going to look at when and where this sport was at its zenith in the American consciousness, not to mention the world's notice, CART in the 80's and early 90's was a more successful series than the USAC loop in the 50's to 70's where the Indy 500 so overshadowed the other events that it wasn't even funny.

The reality is Hulman preserved the Speedway, The family preserved the Speedway, and I would argue Tony made it better. The physical racing plant of IMS is a greater asset as a venue now than it was 30 years ago. That said, when it comes to running a race series, and using the 500 as the hammer to beat the owners into submission, he damn near killed this sport. I don't think for a second anyone else in the family is smart enough to understand the sport either, because if they did, Tony wouldn't have gotten the dough in the first place. 15 years later, they know better now, and hired someone to run it for them.

When a guy who took bull riding to a national sport on ESPN is your saviour, you really know you have screwed up a great thing.....and the really sad reality? Randy Bernard is proving that smart decisions made a long time ago by people besides Tony might have averted a lot of this. It isn't rocket science...a guy with little background in racing is managing to slowly turn this ship from colliding with a reef.

[Blancvino]

...a guy with little background in racing is managing to slowly turn this ship from colliding with a reef.

I agree with everything you wrote but this. I'm believe this iteration of the AOWR is doomed. The next iteration is any one's guess.

[SarahFan]

I agree with everything you wrote but this. I'm believe this iteration of the AOWR is doomed. The next iteration is any one's guess.

do you feel its doomed becuase the damage is just too great for anyone to overcome.....or do you feel that Randy Bernard is just not capable of righting the ship.... or is your opinion based on the thought process that as long as the braintrust at 16th and Gtown is in charge there is a fundemental conflict of interest to properly grow the sport.... or other

[nanders]

I agree with everything you wrote but this. I'm believe this iteration of the AOWR is doomed. The next iteration is any one's guess.

I'm curious to know what you consider "this iteration?" Is it the present Dallara era / spec car era? Or is it related to management? Please explain more.

[nigelred5]

Regardless of who is at the helm, it's the Clabber Girl from Terre Haute writing the checks. Maybe some of us have to simply face reality, Our form of open wheel racing just isn't as interesting or exciting as it was in the past. Once they began the constant dumbing down of the package and slowing down the cars, I"ll admit, even my interest has waned, regardless of what series im watching. The only way to hear those words " a new track Record" is to constantly move to new tracks, even in F1.

[garyshell]

Regardless of who is at the helm, it's the Clabber Girl from Terre Haute writing the checks. Maybe some of us have to simply face reality, Our form of open wheel racing just isn't as interesting or exciting as it was in the past. Once they began the constant dumbing down of the package and slowing down the cars, I"ll admit, even my interest has waned, regardless of what series im watching. The only way to hear those words " a new track Record" is to constantly move to new tracks, even in F1.

Sorry, but I refuse to believe that there is anything to this supposed need for those words "a new track Record" to be heard for the series to be successful.

If you REALLY need that, go to Bonneville.

Gary

[chuck34]

Sorry, but I refuse to believe that there is anything to this supposed need for those words "a new track Record" to be heard for the series to be successful.

If you REALLY need that, go to Bonneville.

Gary

I don't think that the words are really that necessary, it would be nice though. However, I do think that he has a bit of a point. I feel it too. There just isn't any technical interest anymore. That's what I like, and I think a lot of others do too. I believe that in the past what has made open wheel racing (or formula car racing whatever you like) popular was a nice mix of interesting personalities in the drivers/owners/crews, a good mix of tracks to go to (not all ovals, nor all road/street courses), and technical interest with different chassis, and engines.

What we have now is an ok mix of tracks, boring personalities, and ZERO technical interest. Until we get back to letting drivers speak their minds, owners that hate each other or cheat or something like that, and cars that aren't all the same, we will just continue to see the decline of the sport.

[SarahFan]

Sorry, but I refuse to believe that there is anything to this supposed need for those words "a new track Record" to be heard for the series to be successful.

If you REALLY need that, go to Bonneville.

Gary



history disagrees with you

[Jag_Warrior]

I don't think that the words are really that necessary, it would be nice though. However, I do think that he has a bit of a point. I feel it too. There just isn't any technical interest anymore. That's what I like, and I think a lot of others do too. I believe that in the past what has made open wheel racing (or formula car racing whatever you like) popular was a nice mix of interesting personalities in the drivers/owners/crews, a good mix of tracks to go to (not all ovals, nor all road/street courses), and technical interest with different chassis, and engines.

What we have now is an ok mix of tracks, boring personalities, and ZERO technical interest. Until we get back to letting drivers speak their minds, owners that hate each other or cheat or something like that, and cars that aren't all the same, we will just continue to see the decline of the sport.

IMO, you nailed it right there. There's more than one (major) thing wrong and it's going to take several (major) fixes to make it right again. There's no such thing as a magic bullet. Good post!

[garyshell]

I don't think that the words are really that necessary, it would be nice though. However, I do think that he has a bit of a point. I feel it too. There just isn't any technical interest anymore. That's what I like, and I think a lot of others do too. I believe that in the past what has made open wheel racing (or formula car racing whatever you like) popular was a nice mix of interesting personalities in the drivers/owners/crews, a good mix of tracks to go to (not all ovals, nor all road/street courses), and technical interest with different chassis, and engines.

What we have now is an ok mix of tracks, boring personalities, and ZERO technical interest. Until we get back to letting drivers speak their minds, owners that hate each other or cheat or something like that, and cars that aren't all the same, we will just continue to see the decline of the sport.

I fully agree with you. I do think the technical side needs a shot in the arm. But the goal of a new record each year is a fool's errand. There is a certain, you should pardon the pun, terminal velocity to this. Where do we stop chasing that dragon? 250? 275? 300? Physics, safety and insurance actuaries say there IS a limit. And honestly I think we saw it with the current record.

Gary

[garyshell]

history disagrees with you

Maybe so. But as I said above: physics, safety and insurance actuaries say otherwise. If history IS right the whole thing is doomed period. Because at SOME POINT the chase for a record will HAVE to end. That is inevitable.

Gary

[nigelred5]

There is virtually NOTHING intersting about Indycar at the moment. The players are boring or their story is last week's news, the cars are boring and quite a few of the tracks were boring. The cars aren't on the edge, the drivers aren't on the edge, and the personalities aren't on the edge. As much as I love AWOR, it's just DULL at the moment.

19 second laps mile laps, 240+ mph qualifying laps, More real road courses, more super speedways, cars and drivers that were on the limit every lap. That's what I want and that's what I miss. The drivers simply don't look the least bit challenged driving these cars.

[SarahFan]

But as I said above: physics, safety and insurance actuaries say otherwise.

yet 2 decades ago they went faster, had no SAFER, HANS tethers etc, and Id bet they paid insurance premiums them also.......

[call_me_andrew]

yet 2 decades ago they went faster, had no SAFER, HANS tethers etc, and Id bet they paid insurance premiums them also.......

And I bet those insurance premiums cost only a fraction of their current price.

[garyshell]

yet 2 decades ago they went faster, had no SAFER, HANS tethers etc, and Id bet they paid insurance premiums them also.......


That was two decades ago and this is now. There is a limit as to how fast these cars can safely go at any given track, like it or not. And as I said before I think at most tracks we have seen that limit. We most assuredly will not go back to a day when "a new track record" is heard year after year. Anyone embracing that idea is just living in the past.

Gary

[Rex Monaco]

We most assuredly will not go back to a day when "a new track record" is heard year after year.

That's not true. We have Record low TV ratings and Record low attendance right now!

But seriously, there could be new track records if they opened up the technoloy. There are no Deisel track records, no Hybrid track records, no Electric Track Records, etc...

[nigelred5]

... and seemingly plenty of new tracks every year

[Mark in Oshawa]

There is virtually NOTHING intersting about Indycar at the moment. The players are boring or their story is last week's news, the cars are boring and quite a few of the tracks were boring. The cars aren't on the edge, the drivers aren't on the edge, and the personalities aren't on the edge. As much as I love AWOR, it's just DULL at the moment.

19 second laps mile laps, 240+ mph qualifying laps, More real road courses, more super speedways, cars and drivers that were on the limit every lap. That's what I want and that's what I miss. The drivers simply don't look the least bit challenged driving these cars.

If that is what you want, then good luck with that. Notice it hasn't hurt F1 that their cars are basically doing the same speeds they have always done in the last 10 years. NASCAR, f1 and the IRL have all basically stopped the speeds going any higher. The teams make things faster, then the governing bodies make the tires smaller or take wing out or something to slow things down.

Short of burying a lot of people, it has to be done.....because there is a limit on race tracks where you have the paying public sitting....and drivers the last time I looked don't mind the threat of crashing, but they do mind going to funerals 2 or 3 times a year...we have moved out of THAT era.

[Blancvino]

do you feel its doomed becuase the damage is just too great for anyone to overcome.....or do you feel that Randy Bernard is just not capable of righting the ship.... or is your opinion based on the thought process that as long as the braintrust at 16th and Gtown is in charge there is a fundemental conflict of interest to properly grow the sport.... or other

Yes, yes, and yes.

In my view, the grandson screwed up the whole thing by starting the IRL.

I don't think there is a fix, just a slow painful end to a very sad time in auto racing. Something will come out of the ashes, but it's not going to be anything glorious. At least not for a very long time.

[downtowndeco]

And you say this when there are close to 30 cars starting each race, they have a long term paying TV contract, a series sponsor & the Indy 500 is still the largest single day sporting event in the US.

I guess some guys just gotta look at the down side of things. And always, always, it comes back to "...grandson screwed up the whole thing by starting the IRL...", as if there weren't any other circumstances that might have had something to do with where OW racing is today.

I swear, sometimes I wish TG hadn't formed the IRL just so we wouldn't have to hear about it any more. Who some would have to blame then I have no idea though...




Yes, yes, and yes.

In my view, the grandson screwed up the whole thing by starting the IRL.

I don't think there is a fix, just a slow painful end to a very sad time in auto racing. Something will come out of the ashes, but it's not going to be anything glorious. At least not for a very long time.

[px400r]

And you say this when there are close to 30 cars starting each race, they have a long term paying TV contract, a series sponsor & the Indy 500 is still the largest single day sporting event in the US.

I guess some guys just gotta look at the down side of things. And always, always, it comes back to "...grandson screwed up the whole thing by starting the IRL...", as if there weren't any other circumstances that might have had something to do with where OW racing is today.

I swear, sometimes I wish TG hadn't formed the IRL just so we wouldn't have to hear about it any more. Who some would have to blame then I have no idea though...

And yet no one is watching- on tv or in at the track. No manufacturers are interested. That's success for you.

And where the heck do you get this "close to 30 cars starting each race" BS?

[beachgirl]

If that is what you want, then good luck with that. Notice it hasn't hurt F1 that their cars are basically doing the same speeds they have always done in the last 10 years. NASCAR, f1 and the IRL have all basically stopped the speeds going any higher. The teams make things faster, then the governing bodies make the tires smaller or take wing out or something to slow things down.

Short of burying a lot of people, it has to be done.....because there is a limit on race tracks where you have the paying public sitting....and drivers the last time I looked don't mind the threat of crashing, but they do mind going to funerals 2 or 3 times a year...we have moved out of THAT era.

Very good points. Anyone who doesn't believe this, and still believes racing was better off with "the way it was before" should read Jackie Stewart's book about that era.

[nigelred5]

We're not talking about F1 circa 1970, we're talking about Indycar racing circa 1995-2000 or so. BIG difference. My kart is about as safe as a 70's F1 machine, and the track I run at occasionally is probably safer. I never said anything of the sort that the cars should be or even were unsafe. The current Dallara package and many, but not all of the 1.5 mile oval tracks are BORING, plain and simple. There is no "EDGINESS" or excitement in the current formula. F1 has changed their formula, repeatedly, but guess what, changing the formula, allowing development and looking forward to the changes is what works.

At this point, I could really give a rats behind about Anton the great, He totally EFFED this sport, he's not part of the picture, and I personally don't want to see him back in any way if it means he is in control of the SERIES. He can run IMS until he's old and crusty, but keep him out of the series leadership.

[chuck34]

If that is what you want, then good luck with that. Notice it hasn't hurt F1 that their cars are basically doing the same speeds they have always done in the last 10 years. NASCAR, f1 and the IRL have all basically stopped the speeds going any higher. The teams make things faster, then the governing bodies make the tires smaller or take wing out or something to slow things down.

Short of burying a lot of people, it has to be done.....because there is a limit on race tracks where you have the paying public sitting....and drivers the last time I looked don't mind the threat of crashing, but they do mind going to funerals 2 or 3 times a year...we have moved out of THAT era.

A new track record is not necessary, it would be nice. At least flirting with it would be really cool too. I don't think that 230 at Indy is that much more unsafe than 220. If they're going 230 then there may be an illusion that, hey maybe they'll break the record this year, and that might bring in a few fans. What's the harm in that?

But as you say not having track records in F1 doesn't really hurt them. And I agree with that. But what does F1 have that the IRL doesn't? TECHNOLOGY! We don't have to have a spec series in order for the speeds to remain in check, so that we don't kill half the field every year. Do something like severely limit the engine size or something, then let them do pretty much whatever else they want to claw back the speed. Not that I'm exactly advocating that, but something along those lines would be cool.

[garyshell]

A new track record is not necessary, it would be nice. At least flirting with it would be really cool too. I don't think that 230 at Indy is that much more unsafe than 220. If they're going 230 then there may be an illusion that, hey maybe they'll break the record this year, and that might bring in a few fans. What's the harm in that?

The harm is in letting that genie out of the bottle again. Where do you stop? If we push that 230 limit now and they do break the record, aren't we setting the expectation that they might do it next year? And what happens when that expectation isn't met? We get folks whining about it again and the cycle repeats.

Gary

[champcarray]

Gary, I'm not entirely sure sure it's a problem when track records aren't broken. I may not be a big fan of F1, but I like the way they pit the teams against the sanctioning body / rule book. The sanctioning body keeps changing specs to slow the cars down and the teams work like the dickens to keep the speeds up. It's a fascinating balance that creates constant tension and interest from fans. Passionate fans probably care because their favorite team or driver or supplier is fighting to remain competitive. Casual fans just watch because their family and friends are watching/attending. All in all, it has been a recipe that attracts butts and eyeballs.

[Blancvino]

And you say this when there are close to 30 cars starting each race, they have a long term paying TV contract, a series sponsor & the Indy 500 is still the largest single day sporting event in the US.

I guess some guys just gotta look at the down side of things. And always, always, it comes back to "...grandson screwed up the whole thing by starting the IRL...", as if there weren't any other circumstances that might have had something to do with where OW racing is today.

I swear, sometimes I wish TG hadn't formed the IRL just so we wouldn't have to hear about it any more. Who some would have to blame then I have no idea though...

Is it the down side or the realistic side?

Denial is not just a river in Egypt.

Tip, when the manure spreader starts to move, be towards the front ... less messy!

[SarahFan]

IMO flirting with speed records (gils at fontana, and aerie's at Indy) are part of the recipe for AOWR to regaining some footing with the general public.....a reason for mainstream media to pay attention again...

would it be a cure all or a silver bullet....No

but piece of the puzzle....IMO without a doubt

[Lousada]

It wouldn't be so bad if the cars were visibly on the edge. But watching the current Dallara's you get the impression they could easily do 260 if they'd let them. Make it an achievement to reach 225, then it's still "safe" and also more exciting.

[chuck34]

The harm is in letting that genie out of the bottle again. Where do you stop? If we push that 230 limit now and they do break the record, aren't we setting the expectation that they might do it next year? And what happens when that expectation isn't met? We get folks whining about it again and the cycle repeats.

Gary

Was there a huge up-roar in 1993? Arie qualified on pole that year with a 223, but the year before Roberto Guerrero was on pole with a 232. Or how about 1979 when the speeds were down over 7 mph from '78? Or any other of the countless times that they've limited speed in the past?

I just don't see it as a big deal. They could set the specs for a 220mph lap, and leave them alone for a year or two until they hit 230ish, then dial them back again. I really don't think the absolute speed is that big a deal, as long as it's sufficiently fast, and people are actually allowed to try new things to go faster.

[rabf1]

AOWR will NEVER regain the popularity it had in the late 80s and early 90s until at least 70% of the drivers are Americans. The reality is that very few Americans have any interest in watching a bunch of foreigners race. That is why F1 has never gained any real popularity in the US. At this point, it doens't seem like there are more than a couple Americans who actually have the skill to drive an OW car very well so the situation seems bleek to me.

I think TG is a complete fool, but even if there had been no split, I think AOWR's popularity would still be in the toilet today due to the fact that it would still have been overrun by foreign drivers.

[SarahFan]

Is that you chris paff?

[downtowndeco]

I agree Gary. And then two drivers get killed within the month of May because they're flirting w/disaster chasing a speed record and the same exact guys that are here crying for faster speeds now will be the first to throw Indy Car management under the bus because "the cars are unsafe".



The harm is in letting that genie out of the bottle again. Where do you stop? If we push that 230 limit now and they do break the record, aren't we setting the expectation that they might do it next year? And what happens when that expectation isn't met? We get folks whining about it again and the cycle repeats.

Gary

[Jag_Warrior]

I swear, sometimes I wish TG hadn't formed the IRL...

I knew you'd come around sooner or later. See, who says we've never agreed with each other?

[Chris R]

AOWR will NEVER regain the popularity it had in the late 80s and early 90s until at least 70% of the drivers are Americans. The reality is that very few Americans have any interest in watching a bunch of foreigners race. That is why F1 has never gained any real popularity in the US. At this point, it doens't seem like there are more than a couple Americans who actually have the skill to drive an OW car very well so the situation seems bleek to me.

I think TG is a complete fool, but even if there had been no split, I think AOWR's popularity would still be in the toilet today due to the fact that it would still have been overrun by foreign drivers.

I agree that AOWR needs SOME Americans - but the era you are talking about was already dominated by foreign born drivers.... Americans do not care about nationality nearly as much as personality. We like winners with can-do" attitude who have a bit of an attitude and don't take all that much crap from anyone.... We are not big fans of the modern PC sports figure and unfortunately big money has made race drivers the biggest sports puppets out there because they depend more directly on advertising $$ than most athletes. Nike can distance themselves from Michael Vick because they sponsor the NFL not the player (at least not in the way that Lowes has Jimmie Johnson EVERYWHERE) so when a player mis-behaves they are happy for the free publicity - but when the Lowes driver does something bad it is a direct reflection on the sponsor - so they tell the drivers to tone it down if they want the big $$... The net result being a sport of relatively boring drivers - regardless of their nationality.....

[Jag_Warrior]

Sure, it would be nice to have some more American drivers. But if they're unknowns, who would care and why would they care?

Ed Carpenter might be a very nice guy... I have no idea (I couldn't pick him out of a lineup if I had to). But you could clone this "young American" 20 times over and put them all in next year's Indy 500 and it wouldn't move the ratings needle one iota. On the other hand, if Lewis Hamilton, Juan Pablo Montoya, Jacques Villeneuve and Michael Schumacher entered next year's Indy 500, if ratings didn't shoot up 50%, I'd kiss Jack Arute square on the lips - and I think we all know that I'd (much) rather eat a plate of steaming poo than do that. They're all foreigners. But more importantly, they're "somebodys". IMO, it's more important to have a field that has "somebodys" than a field that would just rely on what country is listed on most of the passports. No matter what their country of origin, when AOWR had former (and current) World Driving Champions in the field, we had "somebodys". And if one of the hometown heroes happened to beat them, that made him a somebody. As the old saying goes, "to be a somebody, you have to beat a somebody." As we now know ( ;) ), you can't build a successful series on Greg "the Tiger Woods of Racing" Ray (Arute, your picture is in Websters under "dumber than dirt"), Eddie Cheever, Sam Hornish and Danica Patrick. I don't care how American they are, they're "nobodys". And until they start posting some solid/dominating wins (more than just getting lucky and tripping over the finish line), you can't build one on Graham Rahal and Marco Andretti either.

The ratings and popularity of Indy and AOWR were still very high when we had Emerson Fittipaldi, Nigel Mansell, Jacques Villeneuve, Alex Zanardi and Juan Montoya at the top of the grid. Now we've got (*sigh*)... Danica as the most popular driver (an American) - and the lowest TV ratings on record. :dozey:

[SarahFan]

I agree Gary. And then two drivers get killed within the month of May because they're flirting w/disaster chasing a speed record and the same exact guys that are here crying for faster speeds now will be the first to throw Indy Car management under the bus because "the cars are unsafe".



That is nothing but projection

[SarahFan]

For those of you who do t think a new track record is relevant...

What will or could be a lightning rod that will attract mainstream media increase eyeballs?

[Mark in Oshawa]

I agree Gary. And then two drivers get killed within the month of May because they're flirting w/disaster chasing a speed record and the same exact guys that are here crying for faster speeds now will be the first to throw Indy Car management under the bus because "the cars are unsafe".

good point Deco, I knew on some level we would find common ground!

I am all for dialing back the speed through rules and taking away aero or tires or something and letting the evolution of the cars as f1 does, but it may mean no "new track record" annoucements. I think the cars should be way harder to drive too.

As for the assertions people are making towards the American driver and his scarcity, I am in agreement in that Americans need to see their guys competitive to really follow and love this series. I don't have an issue with that either, BUT, and here is the BUT you cannot legislate who people can hire, and you cannot legislate Americans with skill and ability to come to the IRL over where the money is in NASCAR. It is a problem that is solved by making this series an attractive place for American racing talent to turn to and to do that, you have to fix a lot of other issues in the process. Top American talent isn't looking to the IRL first the way a young AJ Foyt never thought about going to NASCAR full time.....

The competition for drivers isn't with Europe, it is with NASCAR....and that is where your American's are going....

[garyshell]

For those of you who do t think a new track record is relevant...

What will or could be a lightning rod that will attract mainstream media increase eyeballs?


Higher horsepower, lower downforce, harder tire compounds, over-steering cars with drivers visibly sawing at the wheel. You know, drivers actually DRIVING the cars. The sort of thing that made Jim Clarks's car so exciting to the fans and made Dario drive it around on egg shells this week.

Gary

[Easy Drifter]

Actually Starter 4 races outside US. Brazil, Japan and 2 Cdn.
One thing I feel IC could do to promote there people is more coordination with the charity work quite a few do.
Now the teams put out their own PR and there is nothing wrong with that. See Sarah Fisher pushing her team's work with charities. But coordinated Press Releases coming from IC themselves would probably have more chance of making the mainstream news outlets.

[beachbum]

Higher horsepower, lower downforce, harder tire compounds, over-steering cars with drivers visibly sawing at the wheel. You know, drivers actually DRIVING the cars. The sort of thing that made Jim Clarks's car so exciting to the fans and made Dario drive it around on egg shells this week.

GaryYou mean, like the current NASCAR cars without fenders?

[garyshell]

Higher horsepower, lower downforce, harder tire compounds, over-steering cars with drivers visibly sawing at the wheel. You know, drivers actually DRIVING the cars. The sort of thing that made Jim Clarks's car so exciting to the fans and made Dario drive it around on egg shells this week.

Gary


You mean, like the current NASCAR cars without fenders?

If that's what the current NASCAR cars are, then yes. I was thinking of the Lotus and other cars of that day because they were exciting to watch and the fans could readily see that the drivers were working on that ragged edge. If that comparison holds true with the NASCAR cars and drivers today, then so be it. That might explain part of their obvious success with attracting fans.

Gary

[Mark in Oshawa]

Higher horsepower, lower downforce, harder tire compounds, over-steering cars with drivers visibly sawing at the wheel. You know, drivers actually DRIVING the cars. The sort of thing that made Jim Clarks's car so exciting to the fans and made Dario drive it around on egg shells this week.

Gary

No argument from me.

It is that sort of thing was why I was always big on advocating the "Vision" that TG had would have been better served and believable if he asked for a modern era roadster with just that sort of driving dynamic. Big power, slippery hard tires, and less aero if at all. It isn't going to happen, but in the all oval series that Tony was pushing; THAT sort of car would have made some sense....

For a modern mid engine car to have those dynamics, the wings would have to go....or any of the ground effects anyhow.

This dynamic of seeing the drivers fight their cars is why NASCAR keeps the fans. Anyone who watches those guys wrestle those cars around a road course, or fights the looseness of a bad car at Daytona and still finds a way to hang on at 180mph can appreciate what they are doing. Driving around Texas with a foot flat to the floor waiting for the fuel to run down doesn't cut it...

[SarahFan]

Higher horsepower, lower downforce, harder tire compounds, over-steering cars with drivers visibly sawing at the wheel. You know, drivers actually DRIVING the cars. The sort of thing that made Jim Clarks's car so exciting to the fans and made Dario drive it around on egg shells this week.

Gary

is that what the new dallara in 2012 is going to be?

[SarahFan]

honest question...

why would a tire company be interested in developing a slippery tire?

[chuck34]

honest question...

why would a tire company be interested in developing a slippery tire?

I can tell you they are NOT INTERESTED in such a scheme. The only way to decrease the traction available from the tire (for a short time anyway) is to mandate smaller tread widths. And at that the tire company will develop the tire with the maximum grip they can.

[SarahFan]

Higher horsepower, lower downforce, harder tire compounds, over-steering cars with drivers visibly sawing at the wheel. You know, drivers actually DRIVING the cars.

if you were the insurance company which would you rather insure...

the above described car(s) at 226 or the current dallara at 240?

[Chris R]

honest question...

why would a tire company be interested in developing a slippery tire?

I would think mandating only emergency tire changes or 1 person changing tires or something to penalize new tires might change the equation - i would imagine a tire company would be just as happy to promote that the Indy 500 was won on one set of tires as they would be to promote that they are so sticky you need to wear teflon gloves to handle them..... one set of tires would also be very "green"

[Chris R]

if you were the insurance company which would you rather insure...

the above described car(s) at 226 or the current dallara at 240?

depends on what I was insuring... but overall, I think to go retro you have to drop to the 200mph ball park.....

[SarahFan]

I would think mandating only emergency tire changes or 1 person changing tires or something to penalize new tires might change the equation - i would imagine a tire company would be just as happy to promote that the Indy 500 was won on one set of tires as they would be to promote that they are so sticky you need to wear teflon gloves to handle them..... one set of tires would also be very "green"


solid response...

along a similar lines.....Ive advocated making it take longer to change tires than refuel the car....you would see more fuel only stops and tire wear would become more of a factor...

watching a car change handling characteristics throughout a fuel run was always compelling to me.....seems we dont get that so much any more

[SarahFan]

depends on what I was insuring... but overall, I think to go retro you have to drop to the 200mph ball park.....

if you were IMS insureing the 500 (the event)


if the cars drop to 200 I think attendance at the 500 would take a very serios hit

[Jag_Warrior]

Getting back to the OP, a couple of unanswered questions remain: where would Tony George (or anyone else) get the money to purchase the IRL and what would he do that would be any different from what he's already done (that's proven to be a massive failure)???

Also, Tony wouldn't just need the money to buy the IRL, he would also need upwards of $20 million a year to cover the operating losses... at current levels. If he wanted to expand the TEAM program or introduce some other scheme to boost the series' popularity, he would need even more. Where would this money come from???

[Blancvino]

Getting back to the OP, a couple of unanswered questions remain: where would Tony George (or anyone else) get the money to purchase the IRL and what would he do that would be any different from what he's already done (that's proven to be a massive failure)???

Also, Tony wouldn't just need the money to buy the IRL, he would also need upwards of $20 million a year to cover the operating losses... at current levels. If he wanted to expand the TEAM program or introduce some other scheme to boost the series' popularity, he would need even more. Where would this money come from???

I would recommend the grandson not call John DeLorean for advice on raising the needed funds!

[call_me_andrew]

I would recommend the grandson not call John DeLorean for advice on raising the needed funds!

Well John DeLorean is dead so that too is headline worthy.

[Blancvino]

Well John DeLorean is dead so that too is headline worthy.

I feel a little foolish. I keep up on events, but missed his death.

OK, don't use his model for raising funds (even though he beat the rap, an entrapment defence is a risky strategy).

[Jag_Warrior]

Maybe Tony should think about a trip south of the border. I hear there's a "hedge fund" down there, known as Los Zetas, that is looking for businesses this side of the border that can move lots of cash around. The $20 million or so that the IRL loses annually might bother investors this side of the border. But I bet those guys wouldn't blink... as long as a few clean bills would float back their way.

I think TG should make that trip. And if things don't work out, his wife will get a lampshade that will always remind her of him... cause it will BE HIM.

I think this is B.S. because #1, Tony doesn't have the money to buy the whole series if he didn't have enough money to fund a single team effort. And #2, even if he could buy it, he doesn't have the money/corporate backing to fund it operationally. And speaking of funding, we'll see how much of a "friend" some here think Bruton Smith is depending on how his new NASCAR race in Kentucky affects the BY400 profits/IRL subsidy bank.

Tony, head south, young man! And remember to tell them that you're a close friend of the governor of Arizona. You'll serve more of a purpose as a lampshade than you ever did as a racing series owner.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Maybe Tony should think about a trip south of the border. I hear there's a "hedge fund" down there, known as Los Zetas, that is looking for businesses this side of the border that can move lots of cash around. The $20 million or so that the IRL loses annually might bother investors this side of the border. But I bet those guys wouldn't blink... as long as a few clean bills would float back their way.

I think TG should make that trip. And if things don't work out, his wife will get a lampshade that will always remind her of him... cause it will BE HIM.

I think this is B.S. because #1, Tony doesn't have the money to buy the whole series if he didn't have enough money to fund a single team effort. And #2, even if he could buy it, he doesn't have the money/corporate backing to fund it operationally. And speaking of funding, we'll see how much of a "friend" some here think Bruton Smith is depending on how his new NASCAR race in Kentucky affects the BY400 profits/IRL subsidy bank.

Tony, head south, young man! And remember to tell them that you're a close friend of the governor of Arizona. You'll serve more of a purpose as a lampshade than you ever did as a racing series owner.

Tony doesn't have the money unless someone gives it to him as an investment, you are correct....and I can tell you that no one SANE would finance this guy....unless they LIKE losing money...