Bumper cars

[Drew]

I'm almost surprised a thread like this hasn't come up yet, it's all about the contact. Yes, it's a good thing that there can be a bit of contact between cars and drivers. I'm talking about the fact that some drivers can't seem to pass without nudging somebody out of the way. In the past I remember Anthony Reid doing this too. It seems that whenever I catch a race on TV, Rob Collard punts somebody out of the way in order to get past. Then when he's questioned about it later, he simply says that Matt Neil does the same thing.

Am I being too harsh on him? Because in my head, this counts as cheating and ruins a race for me. Should they be a bit tougher on this?

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Are you referring to Collard pushing T-O-C out of the way at Silverstone? I think it was a cheating pass, but others view it as a 'touring car pass'.
The three worst offenders in my view are Collard and Neal, and to some degree, Plato.

The racing between Onslow-Cole and O'Neill in race 3 at Silverstone was very clean, great racing, without any contact.

[Drew]

Are you referring to Collard pushing T-O-C out of the way at Silverstone? I think it was a cheating pass, but others view it as a 'touring car pass'.
The three worst offenders in my view are Collard and Neal, and to some degree, Plato.

The racing between Onslow-Cole and O'Neill in race 3 at Silverstone was very clean, great racing, without any contact.

I am talking about that. The fact that makes it worse is that IIRC it was on the very last lap. It reaks of desperation and I really hate it.

[tisme]

Am I being too harsh on him? Because in my head, this counts as cheating and ruins a race for me. Should they be a bit tougher on this?

Yes you are being harsh on him... because everyone does it, just at Silverstone I saw all the top runners did a bit of pushing to get past.

Collards move was seen by the officials, and if they thought it was out of order, he would have been penalised for it!

Ironically, in the last race everyone pushed past Collard.

[Eurotech]

Matt Neil
I'm sorry but I have to correct you: Matt NEAL and Paul O'NEILL.Spelling drivers names wrong has always been a problem to me and I get a bit OCD about it. :uhoh:

Back onto the subject, I think that as long as both cars can continue after the contact and no one had been compromised too much (eg losing more than 2 or 3 positions) I think it should stand and be allowed. At the end of the day it isn't very professional to see it in the sport but the fans enjoy it and as long as its not too unfair, its what gives touring cars their reputation all over the world as a rough disipline.

When it comes to the Onslow-Cole and Collard incident, I think it was perfectly fair. Collard was clearly getting very frustrated with the Fords driving away from him out of corners and did what was a great "do or die" move in my opinion.

When it comes down to it, Rubbin's Racing :)

[wedge]

It was good racing IMO.

I find it tolerable because they're mostly FWD cars and so in most instances all the driver has to do is floor it to recover, and then you have an incident like Jackson nudging Plato off the track at Oulton Park which is blurs the boundaries even more of a Touring Car racing incident.

What I don't like and find deplorable is the NASCAR style deliberate, payback punting. I don't think I've seen such an incident this year, thank you goodness, as I've been keeping my eye on Sheddon!

Because Team Aon have an advantage on the straighaways, like it or not we will see more of this kind racing because that's the only way to beat them which is in the braking zones.

[Drew]

Yes you are being harsh on him... because everyone does it, just at Silverstone I saw all the top runners did a bit of pushing to get past.

Collards move was seen by the officials, and if they thought it was out of order, he would have been penalised for it!

Ironically, in the last race everyone pushed past Collard.

I know everybody bumps and nudges, it's a part of the sport, it's inevitable. Last ditch punts on the last lap where the other driver can't respond and has essentially lost out due to force not skill, really annoy me and I would hate it no matter who did it. If he had nudged TOC and passed him on the 5th lap, I wouldn't be bothered about it, because TOC could have at least had the opportunity to fight for it.

But, I'll keep an eye out and we'll see what happens at Knockhill!

Sorry Eurotech! I do know it's Matt NEAL and Paul O'NEILL, but I guess I overlooked it this time :)

[MrJan]

Rubbin' may be racing but punting someone on the rear 3/4 to get past ain't. I like a bit of contact but Collard just pushed his way through, he wasn't even slightly alongside. 'Getting frustrated' doesn't mean that you can barge past and, IMO, he should have got a penalty for that.

I also disagree with Wedge on the Team Aon thing. The new restrictions meant that they didn't have that much of an advantage on the straights this time round.

[wedge]

I also disagree with Wedge on the Team Aon thing. The new restrictions meant that they didn't have that much of an advantage on the straights this time round.

Team Aon were still used as target practice.

They still have an advantage, they just can't blast down the straight like they did at Snetterton like they were taking candy from a baby.

[Captain VXR]

At race 3 last weekend (the only one I managed to see on tv), it seemed that Matt Neal in particular was crashing into everyone, the whole race was carnage, and exciting
Cheats should have to put their hazards on for the whole race while limited to 200BHP

[BDunnell]

Team Aon were still used as target practice.

They still have an advantage, they just can't blast down the straight like they did at Snetterton like they were taking candy from a baby.

So what? Their car, which is not illegal, happens to be quicker. Such things do happen in motorsport.

As to the point of the thread, I do think the levels of accepted contact have been pushed further and further to the limits in recent years, to say the least. I don't mind a bit of pushing, and it's inevitable that sometimes things will go beyond that, but I feel a harder stance needs to be taken.

[Wasted Talent]

At race 3 last weekend (the only one I managed to see on tv), it seemed that Matt Neal in particular was crashing into everyone, the whole race was carnage, and exciting
Cheats should have to put their hazards on for the whole race while limited to 200BHP

Just watch Neal at the Brands Indy circuit - every pass is a late dive into the inside of the last corner, relying on pushing the car in front offline to make a pass.....pathetic

WT

[wedge]

So what? Their car, which is not illegal, happens to be quicker. Such things do happen in motorsport.

You've mis-interpreted my post

I've got nothing against Team Aon. The point I'm making is that the only way you'll beat them in fight is a shoving match in the braking zone which is what happened in Silverstone.

[wedge]

If you want cleaner racing then I'd suggest V8 Supercars. At the recent Townsville 400 Shane Van Gisbergen bumped a rival offline and then immediately gave the position back since such moves are clamped down on.

[BDunnell]

You've mis-interpreted my post

I've got nothing against Team Aon. The point I'm making is that the only way you'll beat them in fight is a shoving match in the braking zone which is what happened in Silverstone.

My apologies.

[Bezza]

If you watch the BTCC in the 90's, it is thrilling, there is great side-by-side action, including bumping, but all pure racing. The moves like the "punt up the back" were not allowed, such as Reid on Rydell at Brands in 98. He got penalized.

Nowadays, this seems to be fine, and therefore less talented drivers from that era - such as Matt Neal, use this to their advantage.

There is always going to be banging going on, but a lot of it now is pre-meditated, cynical and very frustratingly, completely unpunished.

I am not interested in the BTCC any more, partly because of this, partly because of the ITV overkill, and partly because of the stupid 3-race reverse grid race weekend.

Get back to basics, you'll attract more drivers and manufacturers, and get the racing CLEANER. Bumping is fine, as long as it is regulated.

[Les]

door rubbing is fine by me.... getting alongside and squeezing through is great to watch....
what I detest is that very small cynical nudge on the rear corner
early braking and get the bloke behind in trouble when he hits the car in front
tap tap push when going round a corner
the side by side racing and one just pushes the other one off

and all those were in evidence yesterday in various races.

[Eurotech]

Plato's move on Onslow-Cole was very good though, well judged and I don't think there was any big contact made (if any) ...both had great slides down towards Scotsman though :D

[Spyder]

If you watch the BTCC in the 90's, it is thrilling, there is great side-by-side action, including bumping, but all pure racing. The moves like the "punt up the back" were not allowed, such as Reid on Rydell at Brands in 98. He got penalized.

Nowadays, this seems to be fine, and therefore less talented drivers from that era - such as Matt Neal, use this to their advantage.

There is always going to be banging going on, but a lot of it now is pre-meditated, cynical and very frustratingly, completely unpunished......




They seem to be doing something about it. This after Knockhill:

"Elsewhere, four drivers were punished for on-track incidents at Knockhill. These included: Race 1: Mat Jackson – fined £250 & 3 penalty points (for an incident with James Nash); Race 2: Tom Chilton & Jason Plato – each officially reprimanded & 3 penalty points (both for incidents with Steven Kane); Race 3: Jeff Smith – officially reprimanded, fined £250 & 3 penalty points (for an incident with David Pinkney)."

Unfortunately when Chilton put Kane into a spin it also took out Paul O'Neal who was driving a superb race.

[Allyc85]

Plato's move on Onslow-Cole was very good though, well judged and I don't think there was any big contact made (if any) ...both had great slides down towards Scotsman though :D

Agreed, I thought that was one of the best bits of racing ive seen in the BTCC for ages. Barely an inch between them with the cars right on the limit, great stuff :D

[longob]

Many people also argue about this issue. Some says it just part of the game, some says it is cheating. But what is important is the rule in the race as long it is not stated as violation I think there is no problem with that.

[christophulus]

I dislike it too. Matt Neal has always stood out as the driver most likely to shove others out of the way, and I'm amazed he gets away with it. I like the side by side, banging door mirrors sort of racing, but the sly taps on the back as you go through a corner are just not on.

[AndyRAC]

The thing is a lot of them do it. It's poor driving, if you can't overtake them, bump/drive/punt them out the way.
I very rarely bother with the BTCC now - there are other better Touring cars series out there.

[Allyc85]

one of Matt Neals Moves in race 1 annoyed me. not even half a cars gap going into Mcleans and he still goes for it and dosnt get any trouble for it!

[Wasted Talent]

I dislike it too. Matt Neal has always stood out as the driver most likely to shove others out of the way, and I'm amazed he gets away with it. I like the side by side, banging door mirrors sort of racing, but the sly taps on the back as you go through a corner are just not on.

Not even sly - apparently if the front of the Honda is level with the back wheel of anyone else then it is clearly his corner.

Can't decide whetehr to watch the Brands Indy race or go and watch proper stock car racing......................

WT

[MrJan]

Just watched this on Youtube (footage is 17 years old, which scares me slightly and makes me feel old). Some of the racing in it is fantastic, especially between Rouse and Winkelhock, I wonder whether todays drivers are actually capable of racing like this. I also wonder why overtaking isn't as common, perhaps the advances in brake and tyre technology aren't conducive to providing exciting action in the way that we used to see.

Anyway, video (only part 2 but part 1 is probably linked in the related videos bit):
2vzjPGYW_fI

[VkmSpouge]

Great racing, the team mates in that race seemed magnetically attracted to one another. If you watch part 1 you see John Cleland tag Jeff Allam into a spin and Julian Bailey succeed in rolling Will Hoy. Then Tiff Needel seemed to be attracted to the Renaults, he spun Tim Harvey and Alain Menu. Harvey then rolling his Renault by tagging Alex Portman's BMW. Ah good racing, the kind of stuff that got me into touring cars. I wonder how many drivers got penalties for all this?
Glad to see so little has changed :)

[BDunnell]

Some of the racing in it is fantastic, especially between Rouse and Winkelhock, I wonder whether todays drivers are actually capable of racing like this.

I can see exactly where you're coming from. However, let's not kid ourselves that many a motorsport enthusiast used to bemoan the amount of contact in the BTCC in the mid-1990s; nor that it was the decidedly ungentlemanly 1992 finalé, every bit as bad as anything we see nowadays, that attracted a lot of extra attention to the BTCC.


I also wonder why overtaking isn't as common, perhaps the advances in brake and tyre technology aren't conducive to providing exciting action in the way that we used to see.

I think there's far more passing now. Whether all of it is legitimate is another matter. Remember, too, that the TV coverage was quite heavily edited in those days. Quite a lot of races were far less interesting as live spectacles than they appeared in a 20-minute highlights package.

[BDunnell]

Ah good racing, the kind of stuff that got me into touring cars.

And it reminds us that the Silverstone GP circuit used to always produce great racing with cars that weren't a whole lot quicker than today's S2000 cars, yet the view is often heard that they would look too slow on that track.

[MrJan]

I think there's far more passing now. Whether all of it is legitimate is another matter. Remember, too, that the TV coverage was quite heavily edited in those days. Quite a lot of races were far less interesting as live spectacles than they appeared in a 20-minute highlights package.

I can't agree with that. I went to Thruxton at the beginning of this season and saw a handful of passes across all three races. Compared to what I used to see at Thruxton in the mid-90s there was very limited overtaking. It's certainly been a long time since I've watched a race with as much going on as there is in that video.

I didn't say that there wasn't contact either(Tiff Needell in the video I posted is proof), just that drivers seemed capable of driving alongside eachother without having to bash door handles. There have always been instances of drivers going too far but it seems so rare for drivers these days to race side by side without feeling the need to nudge into each other.

[AndyRAC]

I think it's fair to say that the drivers back then were far better. Look at the calibre of some of the drivers; Winklehock, Biela, Ravaglia, etc
Saying that, the Silverstone 1992 Title decider was , and still is a disgrace.

[Mark]

Rubbin' may be racing but punting someone on the rear 3/4 to get past ain't..

Exactly my view. Punting someone into a spin is not on. "Leaning" on them when you're side by side 'doorhandle to doorhandle stuff' as Charlie Cox would no doubt say, is all part of touring car racing.

[wedge]

I think it's fair to say that the drivers back then were far better. Look at the calibre of some of the drivers; Winklehock, Biela, Ravaglia, etc
Saying that, the Silverstone 1992 Title decider was , and still is a disgrace.

Ravaglia?! Great driver but who can forget Radisich looking like a poor puppy trying to confront a pitbull:

PbQSvY9KcP4

[wedge]

I can't agree with that. I went to Thruxton at the beginning of this season and saw a handful of passes across all three races. Compared to what I used to see at Thruxton in the mid-90s there was very limited overtaking. It's certainly been a long time since I've watched a race with as much going on as there is in that video.

I didn't say that there wasn't contact either(Tiff Needell in the video I posted is proof), just that drivers seemed capable of driving alongside eachother without having to bash door handles. There have always been instances of drivers going too far but it seems so rare for drivers these days to race side by side without feeling the need to nudge into each other.

At the height of Super Touring in the mid-late 90s people seem to forget that passing was diminishing. There was a lot of calls during that time to revise the cars, especially aero side. David Leslie/Cleland/Harvey/Reid can't remember which but he was complaining/remarked that the cars were so easy to drive that it was boring point and squirt.

Shorter races have something to do with it but I think blame lays on Alan Gow since his return as he's been a firm advocate of hard racing.

[Bezza]

That Silverstone 1993 race is great.

There is no reason why we can't have that now.

However, we have loads of privateers, short races, reverse grids - it is not about racing now just entertainment for the casual fan.

I would advocate setting up something like the Aussie V8 series over here, it is more about pure racing than the BTCC nowadays is.

Such a shame, but something must be done.