Honda bringing Twin Turbo V6 to 2012

[Hoop-98]

40% off too! if it happens as announced, 180 pounds lighter and 700 HP we should see some Road/Street "New Track records"....

Honda Press release:

LEXINGTON, Ohio -- Honda Performance Development is the first engine manufacturer to commit to the next generation of IZOD IndyCar Series car.

HPD president Erik Berkman announced before qualifications at Mid-Ohio Sports Car Course that the racing arm of American Honda Motor Company is extending participation beyond expiration of its current supply agreement at the conclusion of the 2011 season.

HPD will continue to provide the Honda Indy V-8 engine to all competitors during the 2011 season, after which a 2.4-liter, twin-turbocharged V-6 power plant, designed by HPD, will debut when new engine specifications take effect in the series in 2012.

The cost of a season-long lease for the 2012 Honda IndyCar engine will be reduced by up to 40 percent from current pricing. This follows a number of other significant cost reductions, which Honda has implemented since taking on the challenge of supplying the entire field of entrants in 2006. HPD has provided engines to the series since 2003.

“Through both robust and trying times, our commitment to open-wheel racing in America has never wavered,” Berkman said. “With today’s announcement, we are pleased to reaffirm that commitment, and extend it deep into the current decade.

“With a passionate and energetic new title sponsor in IZOD, dynamic new management at its helm, and plans to significantly reshape its on-track product in the near future, the IZOD IndyCar Series is poised for significant growth. We are delighted to take a role in that promising future.”

On June 2, IZOD IndyCar Series officials announced that its 2012 engine platform will allow manufacturers to produce engines with a maximum of six cylinders as well as maximum displacement of 2.4 cubic liters. The ethanol-fueled engines will produce between 550 and 700 horsepower to suit the diverse set of tracks on which the IZOD IndyCar Series competes and will be turbocharged to allow for flexibility in power.

[SarahFan]

at 700 hp what speeds could we see at the speedway hoop?

[Hoop-98]

at 700 hp what speeds could we see at the speedway hoop?

Speedway will be the same speeds, they will adjust the drag/hp to 225-230 max so likely 625 HP or so there.
The more interesting challlenge will be taking the drag/downforce off at Texas, Vegas (if they return) by dropping power down to 500 or so. I "think/guess" it will be a better solution at Supers than the Handford/Min Wing Angle approaches, but that's to be determined.

rh

[Jag_Warrior]

Would you say that the V6 twin turbo will be the weapon of choice should other manufacturers come on board? Would there be any reason (technically) for someone to go for a 4 cylinder power plant? Another question, are flat/boxer engines allowed under these new rules? Apart from additional width, wouldn't the lower center of gravity of a flat 6 turbo provide a net positive???

[Hoop-98]

Would you say that the V6 twin turbo will be the weapon of choice should other manufacturers come on board? Would there be any reason (technically) for someone to go for a 4 cylinder power plant? Another question, are flat/boxer engines allowed under these new rules? Apart from additional width, wouldn't the lower center of gravity of a flat 6 turbo provide a net positive???

I think a flat 6 could be problematical with the undercarriage Jag. A lot depends on the unknowns, like a minimum engine weight, minimum engine VCG height and aero fitting around the engine.

If they use sonic orifices and weight/packaging equalization then my guess is that they will be pretty open to use either.

Too many unknowns to say now...

[NickFalzone]

I appreciate the fact that the IRL is going with a fairly powerful engine package for the new car. The rumors of a more fuel-efficient vehicle just doesn't really interest me as a fan of OW racing. Going from the current V8 to a Twin-Turbo 6 seems like a reasonable change to me without much or any power-loss. They will also be going to E-85 ethanol as opposed to the E-100 they have now. The turbos in particular will allow the kind of adjustments needed to tune the cars differently on streets and ovals.

[Civic]

What was Honda's proposal a few years ago when Pook announced MG as a manufacturer? I seem to remember Honda lobbying for a small engine, maybe under 2.0 liters but turbocharged with either 4 or 6 cylinders.

[anthonyvop]

Would you say that the V6 twin turbo will be the weapon of choice should other manufacturers come on board? Would there be any reason (technically) for someone to go for a 4 cylinder power plant? Another question, are flat/boxer engines allowed under these new rules? Apart from additional width, wouldn't the lower center of gravity of a flat 6 turbo provide a net positive???

I believe it was implied that the IRL will use an equivalency formula when it comes to engines.
That way if one manufacturer wants to run a 4 banger they will be competitive with a 6.

[ezhop7]

I believe it was implied that the IRL will use an equivalency formula when it comes to engines.
That way if one manufacturer wants to run a 4 banger they will be competitive with a 6.

It's great to see Honda announce that they will continue their relationship as a engine provider, but it will be even better if two more engine manufactors join the Indycar series starting in 2012.

[Chamoo]

It's great to see Honda announce that they will continue their relationship as a engine provider, but it will be even better if two more engine manufactors join the Indycar series starting in 2012.

I still cannot see Cosworth not joining the series as an engine supplier, either as the entrant, or by providing a badged engine for a manufacturer.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Interesting stuff. I am glad they didn't buy into this notion of less power such as was proposed with the Delta Wing project...

[anthonyvop]

VW/Audi is still in the mix but talks have stalled. It does look good as long as interim President Mark Barnes is made permanent

Fiat sPa. is interested one day then not on another.

Porsche is still hanging around but forget it if VW/Audi is involved(Same company)

Ferrari rumor is just a media bargaining chip.

Nissan/Renault was interested but have been silent as of late.

Cosworth is studying it and working on a preliminary design.

GM isn't returning calls(thank god).

Chrysler is Fiat

Ford is putting their money in a new series that is about to launch.

Forget Toyota

[SarahFan]

Ford is putting their money in a new series that is about to launch.



really?

[anthonyvop]

really?


Yep! Not a Formula series though.

[ezhop7]

Yep! Not a Formula series though.

Why not BMW or Mazda!

[anthonyvop]

Why not BMW or Mazda!

For?
The IRL? Asked them.

[Jag_Warrior]

Neither Daimler-Benz nor BMW sent a rep to the initial manufacturer's meeting, did they? As for Mazda, I don't think I've heard their name come up before either. I have heard a rumor that Roger Penske (Ilmor?) is working on a badging deal with an OEM - and it's not Honda. But I don't know who it is. It sounded rather odd when I heard that, but I don't know what Ilmor's current relationship with Honda is.

As for Ferrari, that name tends to be brought up by people who don't understand the relationship between FIAT and Ferrari. To them, they hear "FIAT", read that FIAT owns Ferrari and then they put 2 & 2 together and get 7. Maybe Maserati was a possibility at one time. But I thought that both FIAT and Porsche had dismissed the idea of producing an engine for the series. Maybe something has changed? :confused:

As of right now, all I really expect is Honda and some cobbled together vapor deal from Kalkhoven/Cosworth.

[nigelred5]

ILMOR is contracted to do some of hte rebuilds for HOnda currently aren't they? I would assume they will likely continue a similar arrangement if they need that capacity. If another manufacturer comes in and splits the field, they may not need that capacity.

Fiat could be Dodge, Chrysler, Fiat, Maserati, Ferrari....

Mazda woudn't suprize me given their participation in all the lower formulae. Another deal with Cosworth could work, but is the $$ there? Cosworth got a guaranteed number of contracts for hte current F1 deal and they didn't exactly start from scratch on the current F1 engine package. I don't know of another series that run a V6TT. I like the open engine formula, hower I will be suprized to see anyone choose something other than what Honda has already announced they will compete with. That's not to say a 4 cylinder can't make the power of the V6, but there's definitely a difference. VW does seem to like the odd 5/10 cylinder configurations

[Hoop-98]

No matter how many participate they will not be the battles of yesteryear. The future will be about reducing rotating inertia, crank case pumping losses, driveability and fuel economy, not peak HP (IMHO).

The V6 and the 4 are different in the rotating mass, crankcase construction areas and their may be pluses and minuses for each.

I think the big plus, if it comes true (it didn't for the DP01) is a lighter , more nimble, more powerful (P/W) road and street car for the future.

The trailing car interference situation will be interesting to watch. Of course many put everything on lap times, but a return to 1992 corner speeds and braking could lead to better racing than we have now but not necessarily quicker lap times.

My guess is they will keep similar aero/weight ratios and we will see the quickest road/street lap times ever because so many are focused on that and it is relatively easy to achieve.

jm2c
rh

[garyshell]

The trailing car interference situation will be interesting to watch. Of course many put everything on lap times, but a return to 1992 corner speeds and braking could lead to better racing than we have now but not necessarily quicker lap times.

And I, for one, would love to see that. As someone pointed out (Starter I think) the tracks like Mid Ohio were more competitive when the cornering speeds were lower in that era. This would put the drivers as a more important part of the equation again.

Gary

[Marbles]

I hope and pray they regulate HP with an estimation of all available data from the builders and use this as a base point to achieve a reasonably even playing field without actually benching the engines and matching them HP to HP. Everyones allowed the same boost but each builder isn't dealt with separately. Not all manufacturers are created equally and that is racing.

The dominating Ganassi Grand Am team was recently penalised after their BMW engine was benched. Although their engine was built to specifications set out by Grand Am it was found to be illegal in one aspect. It produced too much horsepower as written in the rules.

That is really disturbing to me as a race fan.

[garyshell]

I hope and pray they regulate HP with an estimation of all available data from the builders and use this as a base point to achieve a reasonably even playing field without actually benching the engines and matching them HP to HP. Everyones allowed the same boost but each builder isn't dealt with separately. Not all manufacturers are created equally and that is racing.

The dominating Ganassi Grand Am team was recently penalised after their BMW engine was benched. Although their engine was built to specifications set out by Grand Am it was found to be illegal in one aspect. It produced too much horsepower as written in the rules.

That is really disturbing to me as a race fan.

This begs a question, and I ask this without any sort of malice. Should the last line read:

That is really disturbing to me as a race fan.

or

That is really disturbing to me as a race engineering fan.

Gary

[Marbles]

This begs a question, and I ask this without any sort of malice. Should the last line read:

That is really disturbing to me as a race fan.

or

That is really disturbing to me as a race engineering fan.

Gary

I hear you Gary. I guess I should have labeled myself as a "motorsport" fan.

I can enjoy everything from spec, showroom stock to even a series that uses competition ballast or the constant tinkering that goes on in sports cars to keep the field even. I'd prefer to not think of myself as a tech snob.

What I'd like to see in Indy, though, is a certain amount of competition between engine builders. Mandating HP is a place I'd prefer to not see them go.

To manage power, CART dropped the boost continually to the point that the free wheeling 8 cylinder engines were still producing too much HP. With the new specs for engines with rev limitation, cylinder count, displacement, etc. (I don't know about fuel), I would think that power could be managed reasonably without putting an absolute limit on it.

I guess I would still like to see horsepower as the ultimate goal and not the sweetest torque curve.

I hope and pray. :)

[Marbles]

I think we're in agreement Starter. I want some flexibility for the engine manufacturers.

Regarding Honda's commitment to not only Indy but also the Petite Le mans, I have to give two big thumbs up! This investment has to be paying dividends in some respect to get past the number crunchers in these trying times.

I'm surprised Mazda has never taken a shot at something bigger than they have. Their only big league effort I can recall was Le Mans a couple of decades back when they ran the rotary. They must spend a decent amount of money at the lower levels -- "more cars raced each weekend than any other brand" -- Star Mazda, the defunct Atlantics, Grand Am and all sorts of weekend warriors so why not take a shot at the big leagues.

[nigelred5]

...because Ford didn't/wouldn't let them.(?)

[V12]

I hope and pray they regulate HP with an estimation of all available data from the builders and use this as a base point to achieve a reasonably even playing field without actually benching the engines and matching them HP to HP. Everyones allowed the same boost but each builder isn't dealt with separately. Not all manufacturers are created equally and that is racing.

The dominating Ganassi Grand Am team was recently penalised after their BMW engine was benched. Although their engine was built to specifications set out by Grand Am it was found to be illegal in one aspect. It produced too much horsepower as written in the rules.

That is really disturbing to me as a race fan.

Reading through the thread from the start I was going to write something similar to this - well not including the Grand Am bit - I didn't know about that, like you say very, very, worrying. Even F1 are verging that way too.

As you say, if they want to vary HP from road to oval and so on - nothing wrong with that - I hope it's done by an across-the-board boost adjustment or whatever else they want, provided it is applied equally to all.

Standardise the rules, not the equipment.