Pocono's safety ... or lack there of

[00steven]

Pocono should be ashamed of themselves. No catchfence, lack of safer walls, and that overwelmingly stupid wall that Elliot hit. What do you guys think?

[Scotty G.]

Pocono is a dump. The owners are cheap and haven't put any money back into the facility. Sadler could have been killed because of negligence to the facility.

How they have 2 Cup races is laughable. They should be lucky they even have one.

[Sparky1329]

Dr Joe obviously thinks it's more important to put stupid steeple spires on the grandstand roof than to spend the money on SAFER barriers and paving the Long Pond straightaway grass.

Steve Park and Dale Jr's wild ride in 2002 didn't get their attention. Kasey Kahne's near exit over the wall didn't either. Maybe seeing Sadler laying down on the track trying to recover from a horrific wreck might do it.

The place absolutely is a dump. I've been there enough to say that with certainty. A pit crew member I know said the garage area is the most primitive area the Cup series deals with all season.

[Easy Drifter]

I did not watch the race but one picture I saw showed a fire truck that looked like it belonged in a museum. Probably late 30's or early 40's. Maybe it was just a display but!!! :confused:

[call_me_andrew]

What do you mean "lack of safer walls?" They have SAFER barriers in all 3 turns.

And they did change that wall after after the Park/Earnhardt crash. That wall was originally a two-ribbon ARMCO barrier, after that crash it was modified into 4-ribbon ARMCO reinforced by an earth wall. I was almost throwing crap at the TV when Brad Daugherty said, "I don't know why the wall juts out like that." It's blocking the entrance to the infield road course; It's the reason why Sadler's crash didn't kill any corner workers.

Charlotte doesn't have a catchfence in turn 3 but no one ever gripes about that. Besides, I'd rather hit a row of pine trees than a catchfence because wood is softer than steel.

[Lee Roy]

What do you mean "lack of safer walls?" They have SAFER barriers in all 3 turns.

Charlotte doesn't have a catchfence in turn 3 but no one ever gripes about that. Besides, I'd rather hit a row of pine trees than a catchfence because wood is softer than steel.

Don't confuse them with facts.

[Sparky1329]

What do you mean "lack of safer walls?" They have SAFER barriers in all 3 turns.

And they did change that wall after after the Park/Earnhardt crash. That wall was originally a two-ribbon ARMCO barrier, after that crash it was modified into 4-ribbon ARMCO reinforced by an earth wall. I was almost throwing crap at the TV when Brad Daugherty said, "I don't know why the wall juts out like that." It's blocking the entrance to the infield road course; It's the reason why Sadler's crash didn't kill any corner workers.

Charlotte doesn't have a catchfence in turn 3 but no one ever gripes about that. Besides, I'd rather hit a row of pine trees than a catchfence because wood is softer than steel.

There are no SAFER barriers on any inside walls and ARMCO with a dirt berm is a thing of the past. Those aren't pine trees sitting outside the track. They're arbor vitae shrubs or some such thing. In any event I seriously doubt that they could hold back a 3500 lb race car from going down the embankment and it's a doozy.

It's obvious that some issues need addressing. Since Long Pond is a wetlands area environmental concerns are certainly a consideration. There's also the problem of ingress and egress access for team haulers and large RVs that don't fit in the turn two access tunnel. There's also a need to protect infield campers and track workers when freak accidents happen on race day.

Since racing is a dangerous sport there's only so much that can be done to protect everyone. Other tracks have stepped up their efforts and it's time for Pocono to do the same. They say these issues will be addressed during the off-season and I'm sure they will be. The negative PR just isn't worth it.

[harvick#1]

Pocono should be ashamed of themselves. No catchfence, lack of safer walls, and that overwelmingly stupid wall that Elliot hit. What do you guys think?

Steve Parks crash was by far worse in 2001 or 2002 when him and Jooyner locked bumpers and Park went flying, but even in that case, the car was in no motion to go flying into the infield.

while it is a dirt hill and a guard rail, its still a softer hit than a concrete one.

[Bob Riebe]

I did not watch the race but one picture I saw showed a fire truck that looked like it belonged in a museum. Probably late 30's or early 40's. Maybe it was just a display but!!! :confused:
If it is functional what is your point?
Does not matter if it works, it has to look pretty?

It the teams and drivers think it is unsafe, no one is forcing them to race there.

[Easy Drifter]

A regular pumper is relatively slow, especially on acceleration. It is also a large vehicle and rather unhandy. A normal pumper, even a modern one, is not best suited for vehicle fires and it is unlikely an old one would carry anything but water, although probably portable dry chem. extinguishers. Many modern rigs have some foam but that is very unlikely on an old one.
Again regular pumpers require trained firemen to operate. Maybe the track has them or local firemen who know that truck.
Most tracks use specially equipped pick ups that also carry modern extracation equipment.
It could also have been a display but with Pocono's reputation I wonder.
The Taxi Cab drivers do not have any choice but to drive if they want to keep their rides.
Dr Steve Olvey's book, Rapid Response, slams Pocono for safety issues, although it was admittedly written a few years ago.

[00steven]

It's beyond me what some of you are thinking. Am I the only one who saw an engine lying on the track? They need to have SAFER barriers on the inside walls, simple as that. And I don't know about you but there's huge drop outside of the track and I sure as hell wouldn't want to flip down there.

[ms0362]

They'll just need to pump some cash into it. NASCAR makes them pay big bucks just to have the race there, so NASCAR should set the standard safety designs for each track. They need to put up a catch fench on the straights that don't have them and make the inside fences parallel to the track. I don't really know why the section with dirt behind it where Sadler hit is there, but that's got to go. They probably can't remove all the grass as JJ was saying needs to be done, but they can get rid of a good a amount of it and poor asphalt. They could always put in sand pits like FI if they really want to slow someone down, but I don't see that happening. Once you get in that, you're day is done.

[Jonesi]

On Monday's NascarNow they mentioned that the track said "due to EPA regulations if we paved the grass, we would have to turn half the infield into a lake."

[patnicholls]

They desperately need catchfences on the outside of the straights, the big wreck in the race earlier in the season nearly had Kasey Kahne taking off towards the outside which could've been a complete mess.

Obviously, Elliott Sadler's car being deprived of its complete front end would strongly suggest the inside needs some work too.

[nigelred5]

As long as Pocono is the primary track serving the New York City and Philadelphia markets for NASCAR, Pocono's in no danger of loosing a race. There's a WHOLE lot of people within 125 miles of Pocono

[call_me_andrew]

It's beyond me what some of you are thinking. Am I the only one who saw an engine lying on the track? They need to have SAFER barriers on the inside walls, simple as that. And I don't know about you but there's huge drop outside of the track and I sure as hell wouldn't want to flip down there.

There isn't a huge drop. There's about a 3-4 foot drop, then a 50 foot wide path, then a chain link fence that keeps deer out. I call that a safe amount of runoff.

And please do tell me how a SAFER barrier is going to keep the engine in the car.

Here is a list of every track that has SAFER barriers on inside walls:
Dover
Las Vegas
Daytona
Talladega

That's all of them!


On Monday's NascarNow they mentioned that the track said "due to EPA regulations if we paved the grass, we would have to turn half the infield into a lake."

Perhaps we could discuss replacing the grass with a gravel trap.

[00steven]

There isn't a huge drop. There's about a 3-4 foot drop, then a 50 foot wide path, then a chain link fence that keeps deer out. I call that a safe amount of runoff.

And please do tell me how a SAFER barrier is going to keep the engine in the car.

Here is a list of every track that has SAFER barriers on inside walls:
Dover
Las Vegas
Daytona
Talladega

That's all of them!



Perhaps we could discuss replacing the grass with a gravel trap.

Yeah, who needs safety? :rolleyes:

There is no reason for that portion of wall to be sticking out like that. And that is why the engine was ripped out.

In my opinion you can never be to safe, so I say there should be SAFER walls and catch fence wherever possible, you just never know what could happen.

[call_me_andrew]

I didn't say we don't need safety. I'm saying that everything behind the wall is safe.

Yes there is a reason why the wall sticks out! It's blocking the enterance to the road course!

You are so dense I actually have to draw you a picture.

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m315/mustang6172/jutt.png

You can see the angle, you can see the road course, you can see how the angle blocks the road course from a runaway car, and you can even see a motorcycle on the track.

[Scotty G.]

NASCAR may have been YEARS behind the times and may lost some drivers because of it, but the safety measures they have taken with their cars and with the head-and-neck restraints certainly have worked.

The crash that Sadler had would have probably killed him 10 years ago. He walks away and will race again this week.

Give them credit for that.

Pocono has so many issues with their facility, that its a crime they still have 2 Cup races.

You want to get some more interest in NASCAR? Take 2nd races away from places like Pocono, Loudon, Michigan, Dover, Fontana and Phoenix. Places like Kentucky, Nashville, Iowa and Elkhart Lake deserve a race. Fans in those locations deserve a Cup event.

If Rockingham was suitable again, I'd go back there too. That was always a great race track for stock cars.

I am sure there are great race fans in the Pocono's and Michigan and Southern California. But 2 Cup races, while other viable facilities have none? That has to change.

[Bob Riebe]

Yeah, who needs safety? :rolleyes:

There is no reason for that portion of wall to be sticking out like that. And that is why the engine was ripped out.

In my opinion you can never be to safe, so I say there should be SAFER walls and catch fence wherever possible, you just never know what could happen.
In your world racing should simply be banned; in your world racing would never have have started, along with many other risky sports; racing does not need your Chicken-Little version of safety.
No one forces anyone to be there, if they do not like it, get a different job.

[call_me_andrew]

NASCAR may have been YEARS behind the times and may lost some drivers because of it, but the safety measures they have taken with their cars and with the head-and-neck restraints certainly have worked.

The crash that Sadler had would have probably killed him 10 years ago. He walks away and will race again this week.

Give them credit for that.

Pocono has so many issues with their facility, that its a crime they still have 2 Cup races.

You want to get some more interest in NASCAR? Take 2nd races away from places like Pocono, Loudon, Michigan, Dover, Fontana and Phoenix. Places like Kentucky, Nashville, Iowa and Elkhart Lake deserve a race. Fans in those locations deserve a Cup event.

If Rockingham was suitable again, I'd go back there too. That was always a great race track for stock cars.

I am sure there are great race fans in the Pocono's and Michigan and Southern California. But 2 Cup races, while other viable facilities have none? That has to change.

People in Kentucky, Nashville, Iowa, and Wisconson already have races. They're held at Michigan, Indianapolis, and Chicago.

[00steven]

It's not a NASCAR issue it's a Pocono issue. Pocono's the only track I have a problem with. When you don't have a catch fence and have a wall jotting out your just asking for trouble. And if this is to much for Pocono to handle, then they don't need any Cup dates.

[00steven]

Just read online that CART left the track do to a lack of safety none of which has changed aside from SAFER walls on the outside wall in the three corners.

[Lee Roy]

Just read online that CART left the track do to a lack of safety none of which has changed aside from SAFER walls on the outside wall in the three corners.

CART always had some kind of an excuse for failure.

[ms0362]

Probably just lose that angle going into the road course section so there isn't a pocket for them to run into like Sadler did.



I didn't say we don't need safety. I'm saying that everything behind the wall is safe.

Yes there is a reason why the wall sticks out! It's blocking the enterance to the road course!

You are so dense I actually have to draw you a picture.

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m315/mustang6172/jutt.png

You can see the angle, you can see the road course, you can see how the angle blocks the road course from a runaway car, and you can even see a motorcycle on the track.

[Shifter]

It'll be OK guys...

They'll put something nice 'n' soft along the wall that Sadler hit and this will become a nonissue.

As for the catchfencing, I'll just cut and paste what I wrote after the June race:

"as a driver I actually wouldn't mind winding up outside the wall instead of sideways on the track with my driver side facing oncoming racecars. Just depends on what's actually out there, the (small) trees snap off and yeild whereas most things on the racetrack dont. My biggest concern of all would be a fire hazard, and hopefully Pocono has first responders waiting who can instantly arrive at a wrecked car in the trees."

Basically, there's advantages and drawbacks to any edge-of-track wall.

[71Fan]

uhhhh.....Pocono has two dates because Big Bill begged them in order to fill his schedule and allow the teams the chance to get of the sweltering heat and humidity of the south during the summer.

This from the track's history page

Dear Race Fans,

Some of you have been our fans since 1968 but a lot of you have joined us along the way these past 32 years. We would just like to take this opportunity to inform you of where we have been and to thank you for making it possible for us to survive all these past difficult years.

•Dark Days at Pocono - Due to many construction mistakes, the CART-USAC fight and a lot of inexperience, we suffered severe financial problems. We were almost bankrupt two or three times but were too dumb to realize it. We were on the verge of selling the track when we received a telephone call from Bill France Sr., who asked us to meet with him in New York. At the meeting he tried to convince me not to sell the track, to stick it out and stay the course. When I resisted his argument, he pulled out his card and wrote the following message: On the plains of hesitation lie the bleached bones of millions who when within the grasp of victory sat and waited. And waiting died.

Needless to say, I took his advice and I didn't wait. He gave us moral support and a lot of good advice. He and his wife, Annie B., came to the race the next two years to show their support for Pocono Raceway. Shortly thereafter he and his son, Bill Jr., gave us our second NASCAR race and as they say, the rest is history. Had it not been for Bill France Sr., Annie B. and Bill Jr., Pocono Raceway would not be here today.

•The Resurrection of Pocono Raceway - As I stated at the outset, we made a lot of mistakes in building Pocono Raceway and the only way we could achieve what we wanted was to tear down everything and rebuild it from the ground up. We started with a blank piece of paper and drew and designed what we felt, after 25 years of mistakes and trial and errors, were what the participants and the fans would like. So in 1990, very quietly and very slowly, we began to build Pocono Raceway all over again. Over a ten-year period we spent approximately $3 million every year. New crash walls, completely new paving, removed all the old garages and ¾ mile track, completely re-graded and cut and filled the old Garage Area. Built a one of a kind new Garage Area completely different and second to none. Built a 150-site motor home park for the participants, 124 of which have water, sewer and electricity, the only Sprint Cup track to have all this except for Talladega. Built the biggest and most fan friendly Paddock Area so that fans are only 56 feet away from the cars. Built the most beautiful of all Press Rooms on the circuit. Removed all of the old 375 toilets and replaced them all with Long John, the biggest toilet facility in the world, with 1000 stalls, so that we would be assured we would have no lines. Built the largest and most beautiful Midway with fourteen 40' Blue Spruce, 200 picnic tables and gazebos all over. Today we feel that we have achieved our goal. Pocono PFC - Pocono Pretty, Friendly, Clean. We have no illusion of becoming the biggest or the richest or the most famous racetrack in the world. All we want to be is the Prettiest, Friendliest, and Cleanest and to have fun along the way with all of our loyal fans these past 32 years.

•Ahead to the Future - Most people don't realize all of the unusual facets that Pocono has concerning its location and its structure. Pocono is in the Magic Triangle - New York, Philadelphia and Pocono Raceway are all 90 miles away from each other - with New York as the #1 TV market and Philadelphia as the #4 TV market. Pocono is within 200 miles of 60 million people and when you consider that the average NASCAR Sprint Cup fan travels 300 miles, we are in the highest population density of any other Sprint Cup track. Our unusual triangular configuration is conducive to many lead changes especially with the longest straightaway and the widest main straight with the longest and widest Pit Road. All of these features give Pocono uniqueness - a very enjoyable difference.

•Back to the Good Old Days - In the early 1900's auto racing began by racing automobiles around horse racing tracks at fairgrounds, along with all the ambiance of the state fairs, all kinds of food, picnics, clowns, jugglers, acrobats, bands with lots of different music - that's what you'll see at Pocono with our Back to the Good Old Days motto. We thank all of you who have helped us to arrive at this point, especially Bill France Sr. and Annie B., who convinced us to stay the course.
The Mattioli Family
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Anyways, other than the oh my gosh they ought to be ashamed of that wall, just what is it about Pocono that so many who are seemingly quite happy with the 1.5 mile parades dislike about what is obviously one of the hardest tracks to master on the circuit?

The races at Pocono are imo fantastic. It takes power, handling, and a driver skill level beyond measure to win at Pocono. And it sure as heck ain't the tracks fault that "Clean Air Is King" when it comes to NASCAR racing. No, it's not a short track where every lap has side by side. But it IS a track unlike any other. And that alone qualifies it as one of the best in the world.

But hey.....if the cookie cutters or plate racing are more your style....enjoy. But leave Pocono alone. No other track even compares.

[Mark in Oshawa]

It is hilarious the excuses people will take to rip races out of Pocono, but the fact is NASCAR is loyal to the Mattoli's for personal reasons that go back to Bill France Sr. and that is that.

Furthermore, it is a unique track, it is close to the two largest markets on the Eastern Seaboard and that is enough to keep it on the sched.

Now we can argue about the safety of the Long Pond straight, that is reasonable, but we cannot say with any good business reason why Pocono shouldn't be on the sched. It is there for the above reasons.

A car going over the wall hasn't happened and as it was pointed out, cant bet any worse than staying on the track and getting tattooed by the other cars. I think a catch fence and its cost would be better spent in smoothing out the inside wall, and I do think they have to find a way to maybe pave that area leading up to the road course. It seems THAT is where most of the bad crashes happen at Pocono, not coming out of one. The wall was a little funky where Elliot hit, but they will smooth that out. The design of the boiler plate over earth is archaic, but it gives more than a solid concrete wall. I think the safer barrier is one thing, but something as simple as levelling out that grass smoother and then putting a safer in on the inside will work. The cars hop and nearly flip when they hit that grass, and a tumbling Elliot Sadler hitting that wall might have been a worse incident than what we saw....

[00steven]

It is hilarious the excuses people will take to rip races out of Pocono, but the fact is NASCAR is loyal to the Mattoli's for personal reasons that go back to Bill France Sr. and that is that.

Furthermore, it is a unique track, it is close to the two largest markets on the Eastern Seaboard and that is enough to keep it on the sched.

Now we can argue about the safety of the Long Pond straight, that is reasonable, but we cannot say with any good business reason why Pocono shouldn't be on the sched. It is there for the above reasons.

A car going over the wall hasn't happened and as it was pointed out, cant bet any worse than staying on the track and getting tattooed by the other cars. I think a catch fence and its cost would be better spent in smoothing out the inside wall, and I do think they have to find a way to maybe pave that area leading up to the road course. It seems THAT is where most of the bad crashes happen at Pocono, not coming out of one. The wall was a little funky where Elliot hit, but they will smooth that out. The design of the boiler plate over earth is archaic, but it gives more than a solid concrete wall. I think the safer barrier is one thing, but something as simple as levelling out that grass smoother and then putting a safer in on the inside will work. The cars hop and nearly flip when they hit that grass, and a tumbling Elliot Sadler hitting that wall might have been a worse incident than what we saw....


I think Pocono has great racing. It's just the lack of safety features I'm not a fan of.

[Sparky1329]

Pocono will never lose a race. For starters, the track is like no other on the circuit in configuration. The main reason no races will be scratched is it's unparallelled location as explained in the track's history.

While it needs improvement in driver safety provisions, it's a fan's track. A pit/paddock pass will buy you an up-close-and-personal racing experience in the garage area and on pit road. Handicapped fans are afforded unbelievable accomodation for parking, viewing and pit/paddock access. My pit/paddock pass includes a special sticker that allows me to park in the media parking lot which is right next to the garage area. I even got to meet Jeff Hammond in this parking lot. Track staff members are friendly and helpful. It's a good place to go.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I think Pocono has great racing. It's just the lack of safety features I'm not a fan of.

It has enough safety for NASCAR, since if the track didn't meet NASCAR's standards, they would have been all over the Mattioli's to fix it. This the track that spent millions for a solar array off the back of the property. The Mattioli's have the money to make the changes, but NASCAR never asked for the changes to be made on the Long Pond inner walls....

AT some point, I do think they will have to pave over some of that grass, but I do know there is more politics involved than just spending the money.

As for the wall Elliott Sadler clobbered, it actually gave way quite a bit in a sense. The earth compacts and you can see the wall moving....so even if there was a "soft" wall there, I don't think the impact would have been less. It always comes back to guys going that fast hitting things solid are going to feel it. Paving that area back there I think would work better than changing the wall radically but cars going 160 to 180 mph when they hit things are going to be in a bad way. It is in the end, the whole problem...