Jean Todt's no win senario

[Sonic]

Talk about being caught between a rock and a hard place.

If the WMSC does nothing the phrase Ferrari international assistance will return with even more venom than before, with claims (rightly or wrongly) that Todt favours his old team.

If Ferrari are punished further for an action we all accept is commonplace in F1 then it will appear that Todt has felt forced into the action to avoid the perception of favouring the prancing horse.

I do not envy him.

[Somebody]

The only thing he can do is recuse himself from the whole affair. There are plenty of reasons why he should - Austria 2002 and his public statements of the time, his relationship with Massa (who his son continues to manage), his long association with Ferrari, etc.

[Saint Devote]

There is no such thing as a "conflict of interest" - there is only honesty or dishonesty.

His position as FIA chief has nothing to with Ferrari - unless you consider him a "bad actor" and view him as someone bereft of integrity, honesty, independence and so on. And in that case he should not be FIA chief.

Emotionalism is not something Todt was known for not how Ferrari won championships. He will act properly - which is to recognize that Ferrari has the sole right to decide what it does and is innocent.

Naturally this flies in the face of the shrieking and screaming from those without any stake in this and probably in many cases in the English media, an underlying resentment of Ferrari dating back to the Schumacher days.

[ArrowsFA1]

...Ferrari has the sole right to decide what it does...
If their actions contravene the rules governing the sport then they, like all other participants, should pay the penalty.

That said, it's certainly an interesting one for this FIA President to judge :crazy:

[Mark]

I think the stewards made a mistake handing out the cash penalty. They should have kicked it upstairs for the FIA to sort out.

[ArrowsFA1]

Naturally this flies in the face of the shrieking and screaming from those without any stake in this and probably in many cases in the English media, an underlying resentment of Ferrari dating back to the Schumacher days.
Here's a selection of views - http://www.motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=379436&FS=F1

Or from Twitter - http://twitter.com/#search?q=Ferrari

[jas123f1]

The only thing he can do is recuse himself from the whole affair. There are plenty of reasons why he should - Austria 2002 and his public statements of the time, his relationship with Massa (who his son continues to manage), his long association with Ferrari, etc.

Todt has a job to do and he must do it according to rules.

It's a question of credibility.. and if he doesn't manage it, then he should leave his position to some other who can do it.. But, I think Todt is a man for his shoes..

[Hawkmoon]

If their actions contravene the rules governing the sport then they, like all other participants, should pay the penalty.

That said, it's certainly an interesting one for this FIA President to judge :crazy:

That's the problem right there. What, exactly, is the penalty?

McLaren brought the sport into disrepute in 2007. Penalty: $100 million fine and DQ from the constructors championship.

Renault brought the sport into disrepute in 2007 and again in 2008. Penalty: not much at all.

There is no hard and fast rule to say what breaching the rules will be punishable by. It's not like a speeding fine where you go X over the limit you get fined $Y. The FIA can attribute pretty much any penalty they like from chucking the team out of the sport down to nothing.

Who's to say that $100,000 is or isn't a sufficient penalty?

[ArrowsFA1]

That's the problem right there. What, exactly, is the penalty?
Who knows :crazy:

This has come up numerous times before in connection with many different types of incident, and it's one of the areas Jean Todt has not yet addressed. Instead we have a hangover from the Mosley era where rules were vague and the penalties even more so.

The rule in question here says "Team orders which interfere with a race result are prohibited." Define "interfere".

Why can the FIA not have a written penalty to go with every rule. That way everyone knows where they stand in advance. Want to try to break a rule? Well this is what happens if you're caught.

[donKey jote]

Oh dear its not all condemnation from the 'English Media' then Arrows?
Spanish media too. Shock Horror.
http://www.elpais.com/articulo/deportes/Fernando/necesitaba/nada/elpepidep/20100726elpepidep_10/Tes
rough translation:
"Fernando didn't need it. Ferrari are donkeys. Someone tell Ferrari to get their act together. Someone tell Fernando to stop the "ridiculous" whining"

[SGWilko]

Spanish media too. Shock Horror.
http://www.elpais.com/articulo/deportes/Fernando/necesitaba/nada/elpepidep/20100726elpepidep_10/Tes
rough translation:
"Fernando didn't need it. Ferrari are donkeys. Someone tell Ferrari to get their act together. Someone tell Fernando to stop the "ridiculous" whining"

....and maybe shave the eyebrow a bit in the middle.....

[rublazar2]

....and maybe shave the eyebrow a bit in the middle.....

You are really funny :rolleyes:

[SGWilko]

You are really funny :rolleyes:

eye sure am.......

[Valve Bounce]

There is no such thing as a "conflict of interest" - there is only honesty or dishonesty.



The Grate Man has spoken.

[SGWilko]

The Grate Man has spoken.

Ooooohhhhh, he does fireplaces as well..... ;)

[Valve Bounce]

That's why his dad calls him Alexander. :D

[SGWilko]

That's why his dad calls him Alexander. :D

Ba dum, tish. :p

Man who stick *ick up chimney think he *ucking grate......

[markabilly]

todt does have a problem.......some have suggested there is some unofficial rule that permits such passes under orders when the car in front is too slow.....

and then there have been many other instances i suspicion of team orders, but none so blantant as this....

reminds me of the army, don't ask and don't tell situation....team order are oknay as long as we do not have clear evidence of same.....then they are a no-no

I am split. On one hand, i think it is a dumb rule......and unless somebody gets real stupid, a difficult one to enforce

OTOH, I want racing, with real passes, and when it starts happenning, do not want mac telling the drivers, all in a panic, conserve fuel, anymore than I want Ferrari telling massa move over.........

[markabilly]

Who knows :crazy:

This has come up numerous times before in connection with many different types of incident, and it's one of the areas Jean Todt has not yet addressed. Instead we have a hangover from the Mosley era where rules were vague and the penalties even more so.

The rule in question here says "Team orders which interfere with a race result are prohibited." Define "interfere".

Why can the FIA not have a written penalty to go with every rule. That way everyone knows where they stand in advance. Want to try to break a rule? Well this is what happens if you're caught.

rule needs to say, "Team orders which interfere with a race result are prohibited when issued in such a manner as to be obvious"

cause that is what is going on.....don't ask, don't tell

[SGWilko]

todt does have a problem

Vertically challenged I believe.

[SGWilko]

rule needs to say, "Team orders which interfere with a race result are prohibited when issued in such a manner as to be obvious"

cause that is what is going on.....don't ask, don't tell

So, if Smedley came on the radio and said - 'the snowflake at dawn sings duets with UlanBator', you'd be ok with that?

It's the syncronised swapping of cars that is obvious.

[markabilly]

So, if Smedley came on the radio and said - 'the snowflake at dawn sings duets with UlanBator', you'd be ok with that?

.
No, but i think such things are going on, we just do not see it in such clarity as in this case, so no one gets so excited.... :dozey:

[Easy Drifter]

Any further action is going to the World Motorsport Council meeting. Jean can have someone else chair it and leave it up to them. In fact even if he does chair it it it would not be his decision anyway. We all are just used to Mad Max getting his way.
If any are interested my full take on the situation and also on the IC/Helio situation can be read on------- see my signature line below.

[ArrowsFA1]

Jean can have someone else chair it and leave it up to them...
Max is still a member of the WMSC isn't he :confused: :eek: :p :

[SGWilko]

Max is still a member of the WMSC isn't he :confused: :eek: :p :

Yes, he's chief whip.

[Rodster]

Who's to say this wasn't orchestrated by Ferrari with the hopes nothing too serious would come out of it ecause former Ferrari boss is in charge of the FIA? Hence the desire not to appeal the fine because they expect the FIA to be lenient.

http://en.espnf1.com/ferrari/motorsport/story/24408.html

[Retro Formula 1]

Jean has shown nothing but integrity and fairness since taking the reins.

I expect him to address this issue in the same manner.

[ioan]

Spanish media too. Shock Horror.
http://www.elpais.com/articulo/deportes/Fernando/necesitaba/nada/elpepidep/20100726elpepidep_10/Tes
rough translation:
"Fernando didn't need it. Ferrari are donkeys. Someone tell Ferrari to get their act together. Someone tell Fernando to stop the "ridiculous" whining"

I am pleasantly surprised! :)

[donKey jote]

Yes, he's chief whip.
that was actually funny :laugh: :up:
... for a change :p

[markabilly]

Todt's job just got tougher, since Luca appears to have flung the guantlet in everyone's face with his website posting....

[woody2goody]

Jean has shown nothing but integrity and fairness since taking the reins.

I expect him to address this issue in the same manner.

For his sake, I hope he can get out of appearing at the hearing. After all, he was famous for condoning very similar acts which were arguably much worse. Not his fault, but he is in a bad position nevertheless.

$100,000 is absoutely nothing in the grand scheme of things, so I hope they get the book launched in their direction.

[Valve Bounce]

Todt's job just got tougher, since Luca appears to have flung the guantlet in everyone's face with his website posting....

And he is right. It is better to have both cars finishing one-two, with the faster car winning, than have the Red Bull situation where Vettel steered his car into Mark Webber, putting himself out and relegating Mark to third place.

I think Red Bull, under those circumstances brought more disrepute to the sport than Ferrari did.

[Tazio]

And he is right. It is better to have both cars finishing one-two, with the faster car winning, than have the Red Bull situation where Vettel steered his car into Mark Webber, putting himself out and relegating Mark to third place.

I think Red Bull, under those circumstances brought more disrepute to the sport than Ferrari did. :s ailor: I agree when your team leader's best "move" is "Road Rage" :s mokin:

[Dave B]

And he is right. It is better to have both cars finishing one-two, with the faster car winning, than have the Red Bull situation where Vettel steered his car into Mark Webber, putting himself out and relegating Mark to third place.

I think Red Bull, under those circumstances brought more disrepute to the sport than Ferrari did.

Red Bull, and Vettel in particular, didn't exactly cover themselves in glory with that whole episode. However they did leave the world in no doubt that their two drivers were racing. For that alone they don't deserve to be tarred with the same brush as Ferrari.

[Jag_Warrior]

I do not envy him.

I second that. Quite a tough position he's in.

[ioan]

And he is right. It is better to have both cars finishing one-two, with the faster car winning, than have the Red Bull situation where Vettel steered his car into Mark Webber, putting himself out and relegating Mark to third place.

I think Red Bull, under those circumstances brought more disrepute to the sport than Ferrari did.

Looks like you had at least a red bull with vodka.