helio gets slammed!!

[penske15]

i am at a loss as most of you must be too. h.c.n. was black flagged and had a win stripped from him by none other than brian barnhardt for ...OF ALL THINGS...racing his teammate. today...it was hard to be a fan of a series where things like this happen. of course...it wasn't much different in formula 1 either....the leader(massa) was ordered to pull over and let his teammate win because he has a better position in the championship.
i guess it will wear off but it makes me feel really friggin stupid to cheer for open wheel ANYWHERE when it's run like nascar. just my opinion.

[00steven]

I thought it surprising Helio would do that to A team-mate but it shouldn't have resulted in a loss of a win. The only thing that makes it good for me is that Scott Dixon won!

[Hoss Ghoul]

Why insult NASCAR? It's run far more reasonably!

[anthonyvop]

i am at a loss as most of you must be too. h.c.n. was black flagged and had a win stripped from him by none other than brian barnhardt for ...OF ALL THINGS...racing his teammate. today...it was hard to be a fan of a series where things like this happen. of course...it wasn't much different in formula 1 either....the leader(massa) was ordered to pull over and let his teammate win because he has a better position in the championship.
i guess it will wear off but it makes me feel really friggin stupid to cheer for open wheel ANYWHERE when it's run like nascar. just my opinion.

What happened in F-1 is nothing out of the ordinary. Team orders have always been a part of F-1 as any fan should know.

What happened today with the IRL was just another step in their quest to be more NASCAR like.

[Lousada]

What happened in F-1 is nothing out of the ordinary. Team orders have always been a part of F-1 as any fan should know.

Except that team-orders were banned a few years ago. Even though I don't see the logic in the ban, it's still cheating to use team-orders.



What happened today with the IRL was just another step in their quest to be more NASCAR like.

I'm afraid of that yes :(

[SUBARUTEAM]

having seen the tape and report on indycar.com, it is very clear to me that according to the rules - it was a block. Will Power also admitted that it was a block.

good call by the IRL - fair win by dixon

[beachgirl]

And what would everyone be saying if it had been Will throwing that block on Helio, or say Dario throwing that block on Helio, or Scott throwing that block on Will? Or Will throwing that block on Dario? Just wondering.

Helio's gotten away with that stuff for years and years. Karma can really bite.

His temper tamtrum was magnificent, though, and that should cost him in the pocketbook. Want to stomp away from everyone across the grass? Fine - looks like a prima donna, but he was really enraged, so it's ok. Go after officials? Push them around, literally? Grab collars? Definitely not ok. It would be interesting to see how much it will cost him within the Penske organization, too, although I doubt we would ever find out. Roger doesn't tolerate that kind of behavior.

[Spiderman]

After today, i really understand Ferraris Teamorder. Comparing to Dario Will Power lost 17 points today because of Helio.
He could have fnished first with Dario fourth and now finished second with Dario third. That's ridiculous (quoting Alonso...)

[Mark in Oshawa]

I keep trying to figure out how this makes the IRL more NASCAR like. NASCAR has never taken a win away save for one bad call they made at Sonoma years ago to Ricky Rudd and it was a blantant dump and run. Carl Edwards kept his win last week in the NW race and he damn near wrecked the entire field with his spinning Kez out so I fail to see how making this call makes the IRL more NASCAR like.

This is an F1 style call..pure and simple. The stage management of the f1 guys of climbing in the cockpit post race and judging actions....not NASCAR.

[Dr. Krogshöj]

Brian Barnhart applied the rules correctly. According to the rules, it was a block, according to the rules, it was a drive through penalty and according to standard FIA procedure, it was converted into a 20 second time penalty.

There are two problems. First, we can only assume these are the rules, because the Rule Book is not public. That's just ridiculous in this day and age.

Second, the blocking rule is idiotic as it is. A driver should be able to chose between the inside and the outside lane. If he changes that, yes, that's blocking. But to prescribe that he has to take the outside lane? It's outrageous. If that is really the case, then it is not racing anymore, it is a parade because you don't give a fair chance to the defending driver to race his opponent.

How F1 or NASCAR comes into this, is beyond me.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Brian Barnhart applied the rules correctly. According to the rules, it was a block, according to the rules, it was a drive through penalty and according to standard FIA procedure, it was converted into a 20 second time penalty.

There are two problems. First, we can only assume these are the rules, because the Rule Book is not public. That's just ridiculour in this day and ange.

Second, the blocking rule is idiotic as it is. A driver should be able to chose between the inside and the outside lane. If he changes that, yes, that's blocking. But to prescribe that he has to take the outside lane? It's outrageous. If that is really the case, then it is not racing anymore, it is a parade because you don't give a fair chance to the defending driver to race his opponent.

The blocking rule is there to nail the more obvious cases of blocking, especially in places like Toronto or Long Beach. In a place like Edmonton, where the track is wide, to use the rule is silly.

Just as in other sports where the ref's don't call the little infractions, this is one case where the "Ref" would have been better to have turned a blind eye. Had he done so, we likely would not be talking about rules or the missed call on the "block". It was THAT subtle...

[Jag_Warrior]

And what would everyone be saying if it had been Will throwing that block on Helio, or say Dario throwing that block on Helio, or Scott throwing that block on Will? Or Will throwing that block on Dario? Just wondering.

Helio's gotten away with that stuff for years and years. Karma can really bite.

His temper tamtrum was magnificent, though, and that should cost him in the pocketbook. Want to stomp away from everyone across the grass? Fine - looks like a prima donna, but he was really enraged, so it's ok. Go after officials? Push them around, literally? Grab collars? Definitely not ok. It would be interesting to see how much it will cost him within the Penske organization, too, although I doubt we would ever find out. Roger doesn't tolerate that kind of behavior.


I agree. It may be a dumb rule (and I think it is), but breaking a dumb rule is still breaking a rule. And it appears that Helio broke a rule.

As for putting his hands on people, like he was about to get all bad azz... :rolleyes: Even the great John Force had to suffer the consequences when he went nutso last season at an NHRA event. It should be no different for Helio. Bottomline, being upset doesn't give you the right to put your hands on people. And grabbing a guy's collar who makes Mr. T. look like a wimp is REALLY stupid. He's just lucky that guy remained calm and didn't put him in an arm bar and drop him to his knees. I've seen some drama queen displays over the years, but that one pretty much took the cake.


So Barnhart gave Helio an Indy 500 win, but took away an Edmonton win. IMO, he's still coming out ahead. :dozey:

[Civic]

Imagine if they took that Indy 500 win away from him!

[anthonyvop]

Imagine if they took that Indy 500 win away from him!

He He He....

[SUBARUTEAM]

helio is worth millions of dollars so he shouldn't be fined by the IRL for his post race rant. I suggest that taking his points off him for the race would be better, or give him the first worst pit box for the rest of the season might be more of a punishment then a financial one.

[drewdawg727]

I don't understand. I have heard for so many years announcers say that you are allowed to make one move to defend your position (choosing a line). I have never heard it uttered that you must take the outside line into a turn, complete lunacy. The penalty for taking the inside line into a turn is the fact that you will wash up high in the next corner unless you proceed at a slower speed through the corner, giving the person on the outside line an opportunity to get underneath. It happens all the time, and pretty sure I saw it happening a few times in midpack at the Edmonton race itself.

Castroneves was about to lose the spot from the outside anyway, but he pushed Power high exiting turn 1 allowing Scott Dixon to get past. That's all that should have happened to Helio. Power had the move pretty much done, but couldn't complete it because he was washed up high. Helio had to come into the middle of the turn because if he didn't, he would have not made the turn.

Castroneves definitely had a win taken from him unfairly. Barnhardt makes stuff up to like to think he's doing good...it's all just drama. I don't think how Castroneves conducted himself after the cars were parked was very professional either, and I probably would have docked him a few spots for throwing a Danica-esque tantrum.

[SUBARUTEAM]

the only person in the field that dosn't block is power and that is because no one can keep up with him!!! LOL

[Nem14]

I don't understand. I have heard for so many years announcers say that you are allowed to make one move to defend your position (choosing a line).....That's true for all racing series EXCEPT in the IRL where they have the utterly, ludicrous, Rule 9.3 (B) A driver must not alter his/her racing line based on the actions of pursuing Drivers or use an abnormal racing line to inhibit or prevent passing. Blocking will result in a minimum of a black flag "drive through" penalty, which means the IRL is not "racing".

A driver ultimately has only 2 tasks to attend to during a race, to attack the position in front of them and to defend from the position behind them.

Eliminate the defend task and I don't know what you then call the event.

[SUBARUTEAM]

i guess if they allowe blocking, we'd all be complaining about the lack of overtaking.

if they don't allow blocking, we all complain about 'our favorite driver' getting a penalty.

the only constant here is us complaining

its happened - lets move on.

[TeamTracy26]

I think BB call was a joke. Look at the replay and consider the following. #1 the width of the track, Power was first to move left and even Power himself wasn't on the ideal racing line, why would HCN not be allowed to do the same? #2 The ideal racing Line, if you look at all the rubber on the track in Turn 1 it's clear neither driver was on the ideal racing line, to say there is a lane based on a straight line dictated by the asphalt paving line is a joke. There is a lane, but it's not straight, it runs diagonal to the ideal racing line, ie watch Dixon as he enters the turn. #3 Dixon he did the exact same thing, do you consider that he's blocking Franchitti? If HCN did not move left he would have had 2 options, enter the corner late and cut off the outer lane, or enter the corner early and wash up high opening the inside. From what I saw HCN did nothing wrong to warrant blocking!!!

[Bob Riebe]

What happened in F-1 is nothing out of the ordinary. Team orders have always been a part of F-1 as any fan should know.

What happened today with the IRL was just another step in their quest to be more NASCAR like.
Good lord, you contradict yourself and you are too biased to see it; by your dogma they are imitating Formula one's boredom only they actually took the win away.
Gee maybe F-1 will copy them.

[call_me_andrew]

As near as I can tell, we're using the same "white line" rule that CCWS had, and by that rule, it was not a block.

[anthonyvop]

After looking at the whole scene again I have these thought.

BB: Total bush league. Even if what Helio did was blocking(I don't believe it was) it was such a slight he should have just been giving a warning and let them race.
The IRL is in no shape to alienate fans.

Helio: I can understand the tirade afterward and it made great TV....But his grabbing of an official was wrong and I would suspend him for the next race and probation for the year.

Power: I use to like Bambi until his after the race comments. Displaying sour grapes by throwing your teammate under the bus is reprehensible.

[SUBARUTEAM]

should be a good race in two weeks time!!

[garyshell]

My $.02, (your mileage may vary and frankly Scarlett I don't give a...) when Helio "grabbed" the security guard, he knew he was not "grabbing" anyone in any sort of control over the situation. Helio KNOWS this guy. He KNOWS his role is security, no more, no less. He knows this guy, they see each other very often. Helio knows he had nothing to do with the decision or any possible appeal. He is being overly demonstrative of his anguish, in classic Helio fashion. But I saw no intent for anything that would in any way constitute the "grabbing an official" charges. I saw someone venting to an acquaintance/co-worker. The smile on the guys face showed no signs of feeling put upon. On balance, the emotion shown is a good thing in my book. I am sick and tired of the "well first I want to thank all the.." politically correct cookie cutter interviews after each race. Its like a freakin' script. I am happy to see him pissed off. I am glad to see there is fire in the belly.

If the security guard feels he was being "grabbed", then fine. It's HIS call. Not mine. Not yours. If he makes the call, then Helio should get his comeuppance.

Gary

[beachbum]

My $.02 Classic "red mist". You don't get to see that often in today's sanitized marketing driven sports.

But in almost all sports, you don't touch an official regardless of their title. Charles operates in an official capacity for the IRL. Helio is a professional and should know the limits of behavior, just as he should know the rules. Charles seemed bemused by the whole thing, but that doesn't change what happened. More than a few racers have paid various penalties for stepping over a line. The reasons why don't matter.

[chuck34]

My $.02, (your mileage may vary and frankly Scarlett I don't give a...) when Helio "grabbed" the security guard, he knew he was not "grabbing" anyone in any sort of control over the situation. Helio KNOWS this guy. He KNOWS his role is security, no more, no less. He knows this guy, they see each other very often. Helio knows he had nothing to do with the decision or any possible appeal. He is being overly demonstrative of his anguish, in classic Helio fashion. But I saw no intent for anything that would in any way constitute the "grabbing an official" charges. I saw someone venting to an acquaintance/co-worker. The smile on the guys face showed no signs of feeling put upon. On balance, the emotion shown is a good thing in my book. I am sick and tired of the "well first I want to thank all the.." politically correct cookie cutter interviews after each race. Its like a freakin' script. I am happy to see him pissed off. I am glad to see there is fire in the belly.

If the security guard feels he was being "grabbed", then fine. It's HIS call. Not mine. Not yours. If he makes the call, then Helio should get his comeuppance.

Gary

What about Kevin Blanch (Rocket)? Helio also put his hand on him. Not a grab, more of a push on the chest. Rocket kept moving backwards so that Helio couldn't ever really do anything. But Rocket's in a position where he could make a decision.

And why does it matter that Charles isn't in a position to change the call? He's still an official isn't he? Why does it matter what official you grab?

And putting "grabbed" in quotes doesn't change the fact that it was a grab. Helio had a hold of Charles' collar. Cindric had to pull him off.

It shouldn't be Charles' call one way or another. I can't find the rule book for the IRL (apparently they don't publish it online?), but I've seen many other books that say something along the lines of "laying of hands on officials is grounds for suspension/fines/penalties/etc." No room for interpretation by anyone especially the official there. Again, this has been brought up before, what if it had been PT doing the grabbing? Since PT is such a bigger guy wouldn't that have been more "menacing"? Wouldn't the "menacing" be grounds for a penalty? Why should it matter if it is PT or Helio doing the grabbing? It should always be a clear cut case of you put your hands on an official, you get a penalty. I'm sorry, but that type of behaviour is inexcusable and should be met with consequences.

But yeah, you're right I do like to see the fire in the belly. A condridiction I suppose. But Helio could have done like baseball managers and kicked some dirt on Rocket and Charles. I'd pay to see that. :)

[anthonyvop]

Good lord, you contradict yourself and you are too biased to see it; by your dogma they are imitating Formula one's boredom only they actually took the win away.
Gee maybe F-1 will copy them.

How am I contradicting myself?

BTW F1 practice is more exciting than anything that the IRL is putting on the track of late.

[Dr. Krogshöj]

As near as I can tell, we're using the same "white line" rule that CCWS had, and by that rule, it was not a block.

No we are not. The IRL uses a different, moronic blocking rule. In CCWS, the defending driver could chose either side of the white line. In the IRL, he or she must chose the outside line, that is, open the door for the attacker. To be honest, I was not aware of this before the Edmonton "race".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1e-J6LWropo

[garyshell]

And putting "grabbed" in quotes doesn't change the fact that it was a grab. Helio had a hold of Charles' collar. Cindric had to pull him off.

Oh it was a collar grab for sure. I only put it in quotes to set it apart from the intent that is being implied here when he grabbed Charles (thanks for providing a name to this guy). Without context we have no clue what the grab conveyed. Remember other cultures, even "sub cultures" here in the us accept close personal contact like that as every day stuff. That is totally Charles call. If he thinks it was ok, I am fine with that. If he thinks it as something actionable then I am fine with that too.

Gary

[Jag_Warrior]

IMO, the Detroit Free Press has a good overall take on this incident.


Helio Castroneves is a likable driver. But he absolutely has no business manhandling people when he feels betrayed after a race.

Castroneves has apologized for his postrace behavior, and the incident is under review by the Indy Racing League. An announcement on penalties — such as suspensions, fines or point deductions — is expected today.

“Obviously, I disagree with the decision made by race officials on the last restart of the race, but there is no excuse for my actions after the checkered flag,” Castroneves said in the release. “I apologize to my team, our sponsors, the fans and the entire Izod IndyCar Series community for my behavior. My actions were totally wrong, and I acted inappropriately to some people who are my friends and people I respect very much. Obviously, I am a very emotional person, and today I let my emotions get the better of me and I’m very sorry for that.”

Castroneves loves to win and hates to lose, and that’s what makes him one of the greats of open-wheel racing. But he must keep his hands on the steering wheel and off others if he wants to remain a fan favorite.

Regarding the block, I watched replays and saw Castroneves do nothing more than maintain his position.

Helio’s twist and shout doesn’t cut it at the track (http://www.freep.com/article/20100727/BLOG32/100727010/Helio-s-twist-and-shout-doesn-t-cut-it-at-the-track)

I read Barnhart's account of how he communicated the rule during the drivers' meeting. IMO, that sort of rule is appropriate for ladder series, not upper tier series. But it is what it is. I don't know if Helio broke the rule. Some say he did. Some say he didn't. But even Helio now sees that his drama queen display at the end of the race was wrong and he's issued an apology to all involved. According to the Free Press, a decision should be issued by the IRL today on what sanctions he may face for his behavior.

[stephenw_us]

I've read the various died-in-the-wool IndyCar fan's support for what happened at various fan forums the last day and a half and I have to say that I am completely disgusted...

People should just stop and think and actually realize what an absolute pathetic sham IndyCar has become - and to hear IndyCar fans be critical of F1 (and NASCAR for that matter) is totally freakin hilarious...what has F1 done better than IndyCar? (everything):

1. Avoided a split - check
2. Addressed rules to make the racing better - check
3. Got rid of draconian FIA head - check
4. Kept the sport's DNA in tact - check
5. Grew the sport in a bad economy - check
6. Built new race tracks all over the world - check

What has the IRL done? Not a damn thing - the so called "safety cell" Dallara contract is a joke - the 500 is a joke - and now the officiating is a joke.

It's been one bad joke after another since 1996 - a 14 year legacy of failure.

[bravefish]

Cant see an issue with this scenario to be honest. The pre-race meeting is on the IRL website and Barnhardt clearly states going into Turn 1, if you are the car in front on the inside half of the track off the normal line, and the car behind has a run on you, then its blocking. I thought it was well explained - the after race interview with Dixon and then Power was clear as well - they both thought it was blocking also. If its a local rule for that particlar corner, then so be it - the point is it was spelled out and everybody knew the deal. Helio made a conscious decision by choosing to block - live with the consequences.

Power was put in a difficult spot post race - you could feel he didnt want to comment or attack Helio on the matter really - he didnt throw Helio down the road, he tried to answer the question in a diplomatic way that deflected the issue but in the end there is no way to nicely say Helio blocked him. That said I'm pleased he told the story as it was instead of some sulky response like Massa gave earlier on the Sunday. No surprise another Brazilian sulking - pathetic - more emotions than a chick every 28th day of the month.

Im no fan of Will Power but he lost that race win by the fact that Helio blocked him - so he is the one that should feel most agrieved - and even then he could still see Helio's disappointment, meanwhile Castroneves is throwing his toys out of the cot on the other side of the track, running around carrying on like an idiot. Poor form.

Good day for Ganassi - Roger Penske will be laying down the law no doubt.

[GoAwayMilka]

Helio got hosed. He was doing nothing except setting up for the turn.

GoAwayBarnhart > :(

[SUBARUTEAM]

I think we all agree that the rule needs to be changed, and we all agree that BB was correct in is judgement of applying the rule.

our gripe should be with the rule, not with BB

lets move on - this discussion is getting boring.

[Phoenixent]

Helio got hosed. He was doing nothing except setting up for the turn.

GoAwayBarnhart > :(

Not that I like the way it turned out. But Helio now knows a little bit of how Tracy felt.

Helio and Danica have gotten away with blocking for years.

What would Helio say if he took out Will in Turn 1?

[usgrandprix]

Watch the first 20 seconds of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CT9Fha2mkY

It looks like almost half the field is on the inside half of the track. Many of them are not passing, which by Barnhart's rule means they should be black flagged.

Heck, even Will Power is on the inside track half of the track and he's in front.

Barnhart might have communicated his stupid rule clearly, but then he was very inconsistent in its enforcement. And he also never said it was a black flag. He didn't black flag Kanaan when he took the inside half when Tags was passing him and then Kanaan even changed his line at the turn.

And then after the race he said blocking is always a black flag but I've seen him make a guy go back a place or just give a warning.

There's plenty to blame Barnhart for here and the biggest problem is he doesn't believe it.

PS They ALL block, as they should:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MEG88C3Mp0

[Jag_Warrior]

our gripe should be with the rule, not with BB.

OK, but who made the rule?

Since I just began watching IRL races on a regular basis this year, I'd never heard of this rule before. Where/who did it come from? Barnhart isn't the culprit?

IMO, F1's "one move" rule makes the most sense and isn't that hard to enforce. This thing that the IRL has, where unseen/make believe lines are drawn on the track, is past silly. And saying that a leading driver has to leave an open passing lane to the car following is REALLY bizarre. That sounds like a rule that you'd have for a track day event or at a beginner's driving school.

My gripe with Barnhart is rather long standing. I've never had a very high opinion of him. And from what I've seen this year, he hasn't done anything to gain the confidence of drivers, teams, sponsors or fans. I honestly believe that the Three Blind Mice could do at least as good a job as Brian Barnhart. OK, let's say that he correctly applied this amateur and ambiguous rule in regard to Castroneves. How did he miss the even more blatant chop block that Danica threw on Tony Kanaan at Texas??? Easy answer: that was the one race where Danica has run up front (with a threat to win) this year. There was no way in hell that he was going to black flag the IRL's "most popular driver" when she MIGHT win a race (without help or strange circumstances), even though she CLEARLY broke the rule. I would call that favoritism, others might just call it inconsistency. But either way, it suggests that Brian Barnhart's expiration date is long past.

[Jag_Warrior]

Not that I like the way it turned out. But Helio now knows a little bit of how Tracy felt.

I know what you mean. It's not that I'm happy about this foolishness, but I can't help but feel the same way. Karma has a mean right hook, doesn't she? :D

[Mark in Oshawa]

OK, but who made the rule?

Since I just began watching IRL races on a regular basis this year, I'd never heard of this rule before. Where/who did it come from? Barnhart isn't the culprit?

IMO, F1's "one move" rule makes the most sense and isn't that hard to enforce. This thing that the IRL has, where unseen/make believe lines are drawn on the track, is past silly. And saying that a leading driver has to leave an open passing lane to the car following is REALLY bizarre. That sounds like a rule that you'd have for a track day event or at a beginner's driving school.

My gripe with Barnhart is rather long standing. I've never had a very high opinion of him. And from what I've seen this year, he hasn't done anything to gain the confidence of drivers, teams, sponsors or fans. I honestly believe that the Three Blind Mice could do at least as good a job as Brian Barnhart. OK, let's say that he correctly applied this amateur and ambiguous rule in regard to Castroneves. How did he miss the even more blatant chop block that Danica threw on Tony Kanaan at Texas??? Easy answer: that was the one race where Danica has run up front (with a threat to win) this year. There was no way in hell that he was going to black flag the IRL's "most popular driver" when she MIGHT win a race (without help or strange circumstances), even though she CLEARLY broke the rule. I would call that favoritism, others might just call it inconsistency. But either way, it suggests that Brian Barnhart's expiration date is long past.

You and I are in the same hymn book. The rule by itself is retarded, but his inconsistent and stupid officiating is the issue. The rule is there, it is to be used however with a little discretion. If that is a block, god forbid he throws a black flag on every time THAT happens. He doens't...and hasn't.

He selectively applied it here to prove he can play god.

Brian Barnhart is an idiot. He had a few good years there for awhile....but then I started watching closely, and I realize those had to be by accident, because he is clueless...

[yodasarmpit]

Only just caught the race on Sky+, and somehow I managed to catch the most idiotic stewards decision ever made in motorsport.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Only just caught the race on Sky+, and somehow I managed to catch the most idiotic stewards decision ever made in motorsport.
Welcome to the IRL, where Brian Barnhart grows a set every now and then at the wrong time....

[glauistean]

Only just caught the race on Sky+, and somehow I managed to catch the most idiotic stewards decision ever made in motorsport.

That you may, but rules are rules and and the spoiled brat got hit with a 60,000 dollar fine along with probation. He was lucky this was a sports event or his after race theatrics would have had him in cuff's for assault.

He and The Princess should have gotten married.

[SoCalPVguy]

Rules are rules !!!! Yes that was the defense of the Nazis tried after WWII..

The truth of this is that it further alienates the casual fan (and God knows ICS needs each and everyone of them) plus it also aliened knowledgeable fans like me too.

Smmoooth move exlax ( er I mean Barhart) was it worth it ???

[garyshell]

Rules are rules !!!! Yes that was the defense of the Nazis tried after WWII..

The truth of this is that it further alienates the casual fan (and God knows ICS needs each and everyone of them) plus it also aliened knowledgeable fans like me too.

Smmoooth move exlax ( er I mean Barhart) was it worth it ???


I don't think you will find anyone here defending the rule. The only thing anyone has been defending is the RULING. It was an asinine rule, but it was the rule in play on that day in the drivers meeting.

Gary

[AussieV8]

I think it's a stupid rule that you must open up the inside. It should be one move allowed. ie: if you pick the inside, you stay on the inside. If you pick the outside, you stay on the outside. ie: no weaving.

[glauistean]

Rules are rules !!!! Yes that was the defense of the Nazis tried after WWII..

The truth of this is that it further alienates the casual fan (and God knows ICS needs each and everyone of them) plus it also aliened knowledgeable fans like me too.

Smmoooth move exlax ( er I mean Barhart) was it worth it ???

You must be on something to associate one of the greatest travesties in with an auto race.

So that you know. They were laws, not rules. There is a big difference.

Recently some countries (ahem) have circumvented the law with the I was told to.

[Mark in Oshawa]

That you may, but rules are rules and and the spoiled brat got hit with a 60,000 dollar fine along with probation. He was lucky this was a sports event or his after race theatrics would have had him in cuff's for assault.

He and The Princess should have gotten married.

rules are rules? Are you insane?

First off, to see where the rule really should apply, it would help if if the idiot who wrote the rule understands road racing. Brian, being an acolyte of Mr. George, isn't likely a fan. Secondly, EVEN IF THERE IS RULE, does he have to enforce it? Careful now, I didn't see any red cards in the World Cup yet I did notice a Dutch player drop kick a Spanish player in the chest at one point...

Hockey refs don't make calls at times, Basketball Ref's don't make calls against certain players at times. Rules are meant to be either so straightforward and black and white or to be applied to sitautions with gray areas.

What we all saw was two guys going for the lead at the end of the race, and there was no overt block, and how the hell was Helio supposed to give Will the inside when Will never really made any serious attempt to GO inside?

Will picked his poison going out there.

Helio was guilty of only being an idiot once he was out of the car, and alas, they fined him for that. Case closed.

Brian Barnhart is an idiot...pure and simple....because he thinks one size fits all rules for road racing apply on 200 foot wide runways or on street courses. Yet I have yet to seem him nail people blatantly blocking the INSIDE at races like Texas, where Danica threw more blocks than an O line man making a hole for a running back...

Puleeze...rules are rules is BS...

[glauistean]

rules are rules? Are you insane?

First off, to see where the rule really should apply, it would help if if the idiot who wrote the rule understands road racing. Brian, being an acolyte of Mr. George, isn't likely a fan. Secondly, EVEN IF THERE IS RULE, does he have to enforce it? Careful now, I didn't see any red cards in the World Cup yet I did notice a Dutch player drop kick a Spanish player in the chest at one point...

Hockey refs don't make calls at times, Basketball Ref's don't make calls against certain players at times. Rules are meant to be either so straightforward and black and white or to be applied to sitautions with gray areas.

What we all saw was two guys going for the lead at the end of the race, and there was no overt block, and how the hell was Helio supposed to give Will the inside when Will never really made any serious attempt to GO inside?

Will picked his poison going out there.

Helio was guilty of only being an idiot once he was out of the car, and alas, they fined him for that. Case closed.

Brian Barnhart is an idiot...pure and simple....because he thinks one size fits all rules for road racing apply on 200 foot wide runways or on street courses. Yet I have yet to seem him nail people blatantly blocking the INSIDE at races like Texas, where Danica threw more blocks than an O line man making a hole for a running back...

Puleeze...rules are rules is BS...

You can rant and rave as much as you wish. He broke the rules set out prior to the race. Even his own Will Power and Justin Wilson to name two agreed. It was very specific and made clear at the drivers meeting.

What you are suggesting is to willy nilly pick and choose rules. In that case why have any at all.

You used the World Cup as an example. The referee did not see the offence and should have been told by the fourth official who said he did not see it either. There is no replay in football.

During the world cup there were many red cards for breakings the rules.

Suarez from Uruguay for handling the ball to prevent a goal. I can give you more of those red carded players names if you wish.

Nothing changes. Rules are rules!!!

[garyshell]

Nothing changes. Rules are rules!!!

Yes, and Helio does indeed deserve the punishment he got. However none of this changes the fact that this is the single most asinine rule ever introduced into professional auto racing. Yes I know the drivers have called for something like this for street courses, but to apply this to ALL no-oval races is just idiotic. If used at all, it should be specifically applied where and when it makes sense. It made NO sense at all in Edmonton.

Gary

[downtowndeco]

Let's say there was no blocking rule. And whomever was leading could just duck, dive and swerve all over the course in an attempt to prevent a pass attempt by whomever was in second. Is that what you want? Or someone runs someone down into the grass and causes a 200 crash at Texas. Is that what you guys are asking for? After all, according to you, racing is racing. Why try & curb that in any way?

Now I know that's not really what you're asking for. But the problem is, where do you draw the line? Is one block OK? Two? Is one too many at Indianapolis or Texas? Is it always OK on a street circuit? Is it OK to block with 50 laps to go but not with 5 to go? And who makes the call? Who is PERFECT enough to always get it right every time?

See what I'm saying? It's imperfect but so is life. They made the rule. The drivers knew about the rule. The rule was broken (all drivers except Helio seem to agree). The rule was inforced.

One last thing. Let's be honest. If the shoe would have been on the other foot Helio would have been the first to cry about how he was blocked.

You may now continue your regularly scheduled "We can't believe how bad the IRL is" complaining session.

[garyshell]

Let's say there was no blocking rule. And whomever was leading could just duck, dive and swerve all over the course in an attempt to prevent a pass attempt by whomever was in second. Is that what you want? Or someone runs someone down into the grass and causes a 200 crash at Texas. Is that what you guys are asking for? After all, according to you, racing is racing. Why try & curb that in any way?

Now I know that's not really what you're asking for. But the problem is, where do you draw the line? Is one block OK? Two? Is one too many at Indianapolis or Texas? Is it always OK on a street circuit? Is it OK to block with 50 laps to go but not with 5 to go? And who makes the call? Who is PERFECT enough to always get it right every time?

See what I'm saying? It's imperfect but so is life. They made the rule. The drivers knew about the rule. The rule was broken (all drivers except Helio seem to agree). The rule was inforced.

One last thing. Let's be honest. If the shoe would have been on the other foot Helio would have been the first to cry about how he was blocked.

Who said anything about not having a blocking rule? What WAS said and you either didn't understand or chose to ignore, was that the actual rule requiring the driver in front to leave the inside line open is stupid. Why must the driver leave the preferred line open? That makes no sense whatsoever.

What was wrong with the old rule of pick one line and hold to it?

Yes the drivers knew the rule, yes Helio broke the rule, yes Helio got his comeuppance. None of that changes the fact that the rule is asinine.

Texas? What the hell does Texas have to do with this? This rule only applies to road and street courses, please do try to keep up.


You may now continue your regularly scheduled "We can't believe how bad the IRL is" complaining session.

It always has to come back to that with you doesn't it? No one can ever single out a specific flaw without you turning it into it being a condemnation of the entire series. It is getting old and trite. Guess what, the war is over and most of us realized that last year.

Gary

[downtowndeco]

Please post the exact rule from the book.


the actual rule requiring the driver in front to leave the inside line open is stupid. Why must the driver leave the preferred line open?

[garyshell]

Please post the exact rule from the book.


Since we both know there is no published rule book, this will have to suffice:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1e-J6LWropo&feature=fvsr

or

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_g0pGKUhrk&feature=fvsr

Gary

[DanicaFan]

I have a hardcopy of a 2007 IndyCar Rule Book. You wont see the "imaginary line" rule in this book because this rule was brought over by Tony Cotman in 2008 after the merger of IndyCar & ChampCar.

[garyshell]

You wont see the "imaginary line" rule in this book because this rule was brought over by Tony Cotman in 2008 after the merger of IndyCar & ChampCar.


No, it was not. The rule in Champcar was in effect, pick a line and stick to it.

Gary

[downtowndeco]

OK. I have to admit. It seems like kind of a strange rule. I'd like to hear the logic behind it.


Since we both know there is no published rule book, this will have to suffice:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1e-J6LWropo&feature=fvsr

or

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_g0pGKUhrk&feature=fvsr

Gary

[Mark in Oshawa]

Actually, the rule, for a very long time, was you get one move. The second one is blocking. And that's the way it should be. A driver in front has the right to defend their position, but not to weave back and forth across the track.

Based on that, Helio shoudn't have a penalty, and I thought that WAS the rule until I saw the video of Barnard in a driver's meeting with his "rule" that he used.

It isn't rocket science, yet the IRL tried to reinvent the wheel with this one..and there was no need for it.

[Easy Drifter]

This is an example of the hidebound thinking that has become all to common in IC. It is applied even when it makes no sense. Just like USAC used to be.
Almost everyone agrees it is a ridiculous rule especially at a track like Edmonton but it is still on the 'books'.
The one move rule works in many forms of racing and used to be the CART/CC rule.
Use some intelligence and revert to that.
Prime reason Brian has to go.