Fia Vs Ferrari

[mstillhere]

It seems clear now that the FIA comes down really hard on Ferrari every time they have a chance. And it does that without wasting any time.
And all this is happenig at a time where Ferrari has been very carefull in following rules amd interpreting them in a very conservative way, so conservative that some people were saying that's what's causing Ferrari to copy what the other teams evolutions are afraid as they are to break, even involunterely the rules. However, despite the team's cautious approach it seems that the FIA comes down as hard as they can to keep the red team under their boots.
Last year, to mention a quick example, McLaren asked Lewis team mate to let him pass and after it occured nobody made a big deal out of it. So i guess those of you who were insinuating that Todt would be using his position to further help Ferrari in the championship are having second thoughts about it.

[ioan]

Don't be hypocrite.

[Jag_Warrior]

It would help if you'd begin with an explanation of what your rant is all about.

*Goes off to Google News to see for myself*

Edit: Ferrari fined as Alonso denies Massa in Hockenheim controversy (http://edition.cnn.com/2010/SPORT/motorsport/07/25/f1.alonso.massa.ferrari.schumacher/?hpt=T2#fbid=sBZfv6sXXi5)

And IMO, this could have easily been placed in one of the existing threads about the shenanigans of this race.

[mstillhere]

Don't be hypocrite.

I am asking the same to everyone. We all know everyone does it. McLeren, Red Bull etc. The difference is that the orders are given in sa more subtle way, like: slow down and save gas" or : yiu got a brake mulfuction" and so on.
So, everyone has to bow to the team interests, and I mean everyone no one excluded. Any disagrement to my point is due only by partisanship or hypocrisy.

[Tazio]

:s ailor:
It seems clear now that the FIA comes down really hard on Ferrari every time they have a chance. And it does that without wasting any time.
And all this is happenig at a time where Ferrari has been very carefull in following rules amd interpreting them in a very conservative way, so conservative that some people were saying that's what's causing Ferrari to copy what the other teams evolutions are afraid as they are to break, even involunterely the rules. However, despite the team's cautious approach it seems that the FIA comes down as hard as they can to keep the red team under their boots.
Last year, to mention a quick example, McLaren asked Lewis team mate to let him pass and after it occured nobody made a big deal out of it. So i guess those of you who were insinuating that Todt would be using his position to further help Ferrari in the championship are having second thoughts about it.It's over!!
The only thing Ferrari are guilty of is not being slick, or subtle enough when they did it. They deserve a fine for that! Fred is their only chance they have to get back into the wdc hunt. I'm glad they did it. Desparate times require desparate measures! :burp: :imubash: :s ailor: :s mokin:

[Mia 01]

:s ailor: It's over!!
The only thing Ferrari are guilty of is not being slick, or subtle enough when they did it. They deserve a fine for that! Fred is their only chance they have to get back into the wdc hunt. I'm glad they did it. Desparate times require desparate measures! :burp: :imubash: :s ailor: :s mokin:

Indeed it does, but it will reflect on them in the WMSC hearing. It will also leave a bad taste in the mouths of thoose fans that cheer the ting today.

[mstillhere]

:s ailor: It's over!!
The only thing Ferrari are guilty of is not being slick, or subtle enough when they did it. They deserve a fine for that! Fred is their only chance they have to get back into the wdc hunt. I'm glad they did it. Desparate times require desparate measures! :burp: :imubash: :s ailor: :s mokin:

Pretty much. That engineeer, I dont know who that was, had to say to the whole world, God forbid, that Alonso was faster. How stupid is that? That's their sin. But to see people in here and the FIA with a strait face saying " oh...that's soooooooooooooooo shameful. Team orders don't exist in F1. You Ferrari people are really horrible people and you deserve a harsh punishment. That's including Dorner, the Red Bull big boss. Hearing him critizing Ferrari for this episod is extremely rich. Vettel is smart. He stays out of it. But Dorner???? what an idiot.
And do you know what's really sickening me? The farse that in this forum and in others I am sure as well, takes place in here pretending that this issue was never, EVER, discussed before and the same arguments made a billion times before are going to be made now at the expense of honesty, aknowledging the nature of the sport and how many teams do it regularly. I'll tell what is worse: passing the SC whil an accident is taking place. That's what I consider really shamefull.

[mstillhere]

Indeed it does, but it will reflect on them in the WMSC hearing. It will also leave a bad taste in the mouths of thoose fans that cheer the ting today.

If I were to be one of those fans you refer to, I would have been saying a very logical thing: why would not Massa let his faster team mate get by? And seeing Alonso passing him it was the logical thing to see. I actually wonder what the fans are thinking after seeing Ferrari being punished over something that's, again, the logical thing to see happening.

[Mia 01]

Theres not enough fearri fans this time

[Mia 01]

If I were to be one of those fans you refer to, I would have been saying a very logical thing: why would not Massa let his faster team mate get by? And seeing Alonso passing him it was the logical thing to see. I actually wonder what the fans are thinking after seeing Ferrari being punished over something that's, again, the logical thing to see happening.

Overtaking, has alonso forget the sill hes on par wit rubens.

[mstillhere]

Overtaking, has alonso forget the sill hes on par wit rubens.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3rqxkbKPOU

[anthonyvop]

It seems clear now that the FIA comes down really hard on Ferrari every time they have a chance. And it does that without wasting any time.
And all this is happenig at a time where Ferrari has been very carefull in following rules amd interpreting them in a very conservative way, so conservative that some people were saying that's what's causing Ferrari to copy what the other teams evolutions are afraid as they are to break, even involunterely the rules. However, despite the team's cautious approach it seems that the FIA comes down as hard as they can to keep the red team under their boots.
Last year, to mention a quick example, McLaren asked Lewis team mate to let him pass and after it occured nobody made a big deal out of it. So i guess those of you who were insinuating that Todt would be using his position to further help Ferrari in the championship are having second thoughts about it.

The Fact the McLaren is even allowed to participate in any FIA sanctioned event is proof enough that the FIA treats Ferrari worse than other teams.

[mstillhere]

The Fact the McLaren is even allowed to participate in any FIA sanctioned event is proof enough that the FIA treats Ferrari worse than other teams.

My feeling is that's pay back after what happened in Valencia and Alonso and Ferrari accusing the stewards for not being.............."competent" enough.

[pino]

Don't be hypocrite.

These are the kind of threads you would've started if MS was involved driving a Ferrari, so at least have the dignity to respect those fans who have not turned their back to their beloved Team !

[wmcot]

These are the kind of threads you would've started if MS was involved driving a Ferrari, so at least have the dignity to respect those fans who have not turned their back to their beloved Team !

Yeah. It looks like FA is the new MS for all the bashers who haven't had a target in the past few years.

[Roamy]

:s ailor: It's over!!
The only thing Ferrari are guilty of is not being slick, or subtle enough when they did it. They deserve a fine for that! Fred is their only chance they have to get back into the wdc hunt. I'm glad they did it. Desparate times require desparate measures! :burp: :imubash: :s ailor: :s mokin:

finally someone gets it

good taz

[Roamy]

These are the kind of threads you would've started if MS was involved driving a Ferrari, so at least have the dignity to respect those fans who have not turned their back to their beloved Team !

VIVA Ferrari

Bring back Imola

[ioan]

That engineeer, I dont know who that was, had to say to the whole world, God forbid, that Alonso was faster. How stupid is that?

It wasn't stupid at all, it was a very intelligent slap in Domenicali's face, and he deserves it 100 times at least for how crappy a team principal he is.

[ioan]

why would not Massa let his faster team mate get by?

Because he is a race driver. It never occurred to you that F1 is about racing and not watching Alonso having a walk in the park?!

I am starting to be surprised by the logic of some Ferrari fans. :\

[ioan]

These are the kind of threads you would've started if MS was involved driving a Ferrari, so at least have the dignity to respect those fans who have not turned their back to their beloved Team !

You have no ground to judge my dignity nor to take cheap shots at me, please keep at moderating the forum.
IMO, giving up, after 20 years, on blindly supporting a mass of idiots that call themselves the Ferrari F1 team saved me some integrity. You might understand one day too.

[Jag_Warrior]

Because he is a race driver. It never occurred to you that F1 is about racing and not watching Alonso having a walk in the park?!

I am starting to be surprised by the logic of some Ferrari fans. :\

THANK YOU!!! THANK YOU!!!

In order to help the TEAM, Felipe was doing exactly what he should have been doing: trying to score the maximum points. The Constructors Championship is what determines the big payday at the end of the season. And as long as Ferrari got a 1-2, that would have happened. It is not Massa's job to help Alonso win the WDC. But since Ferrari had to play Sneaky Pete with the results, the 1-2 could be in jeopardy.

We all know that team orders still exist. But even a child could have found a smoother way to execute this than what we heard on the Ferrari radio transmissions. "Alonso is faster... do you understand?" (wink, wink, nod, nod). And then Massa parks his car to let Alonso pass. Followed by: "Good lad. Sorry."

My father had a saying: if you're going to rob a bank, at least have the good sense to wear a mask. Not only did Ferrari not wear a mask, they dropped their I.D. on the floor of the bank as they were running away. And now people are surprised that they're getting a whack across the knuckles??? Amazing!

What would make me angry is if Massa gets in trouble for this and Alonso gets (another) pass. This slick character has been in the middle of most every major scandal that's hit F1 over the past several years (I bet he was in the room when Maxie was getting his spankings). But he's like John Gotti, the Teflon Don... he plays dumb and then gets off the hook. If Massa is sanctioned during the WMSC meeting, I'll be livid. But it wouldn't surprise me if it goes down with him getting pinched and Alonso walking away with that "I know nothing" #### eating grin on his face. :mad:

[mstillhere]

Because he is a race driver. It never occurred to you that F1 is about racing and not watching Alonso having a walk in the park?!

I am starting to be surprised by the logic of some Ferrari fans. :\

1. Alonso is busting his.......derriere (and pardon my French). If ther is someone walking in the park, that would be Massa, who very inconsistently every now and then decides to work for Red Bull or McLAren, and not for Ferrari.

2. Massa can do everything he wants when he'll race for the Massa Racing Team. As long as he works for Ferrari he gracefully and cleverly -like the other teams do - would do whatever it takes to make the Ferrari Racing Team win.

And as far as Massa being a driver I would like to share with you that so were the all those drivers of the other teams when they were asked to move over and to let their team mate pass whenever their team principals asked them to do so. Ferrari lately seems to really have become a team lead by Cinderella for their naivity. However, I know and you know that no one in F1 is without sin.
So try to forget for a moment your hatred against Ferrari and look instead at the big picture. Ferrari is not the exclusive team giving orders to their drivers. Everyone does that as well. Ask Dorner or Whitmarsh, etc. etc, etc. They are the only ones caught with their pants down. That's all.

[mstillhere]

My father had a saying: if you're going to rob a bank, at least have the good sense to wear a mask.

I totally agree with your father.


What would make me angry is if Massa gets in trouble for this and Alonso gets (another) pass.

Massa needs to get on with the program. You either give your 1000% at every race or if you can't/want to do it then help the team and team mate in whatever way you can. Otherwise why having two pilots?

[wmcot]

Because he is a race driver. It never occurred to you that F1 is about racing...

All along I thought F1 was a business and Massa was an employee...silly me!

[wmcot]

Is there anybody who thinks that another team (for example Renault) wouldn't do the same if Petrov was leading Kubica in a 1-2? (Oops, bad choice - they may ask him to crash...)

[wmcot]

I am starting to be surprised by the logic of some Ferrari fans. :\

And I am starting to be surprised by the lack of business sense of F1 fans!

[Big Ben]

You have no ground to judge my dignity nor to take cheap shots at me, please keep at moderating the forum.
IMO, giving up, after 20 years, on blindly supporting a mass of idiots that call themselves the Ferrari F1 team saved me some integrity. You might understand one day too.

Yes Pino. Please moderate the forum and give him a ban. Most people will understand this is no personal revenge. He obviously can't behave and he's a repeat offender. No civilized discussion will take place here while he gets involved. I'm sick of reading about dignity and integrity from someone who lacks both. He's the best man to talk about hypocrisy though.

[pino]

I've had many a run in with ioan over the years but I don't see anything here that would deserve a ban. Most of the insults have come from people who are in the minority and see nothing wrong with what Ferrari did on Sunday. Thats all fair enough and thats why we are here, to engage in debate and argue our POV, but if we start getting personal with other posters it just devalues any stance we have and shows weakness IMO.



I didn't say I was going to ban him, I am just asking some respect for those fans who are still supporting their Team...no matter what. It might be right, it might be wrong but those fans deserves respect not insults. And while I am here let me point out that I have not a personal problem with ioan, if I had that...he would've gone long long time ago !

Now back to the topic please :)

[henners88]

I didn't say I was going to ban him, I am just asking some respect for those fans who are still supporting their Team...no matter what. It might be right, it might be wrong but those fans deserves respect not insults. And while I am here let me point out that I have not a personal problem with ioan, if I had that...he would've gone long long time ago !

Now back to the topic please :)
Pino my man, I was posting in reference to a fellow poster who was asking for ioan to be banned. The previous post to mine in fact. It was in no relation to your post, and you do a great job. :)

And yes lets get back on topic please. I'd like to point out it was back on topic before you posted Pino lol. Only joking ;)

[Easy Drifter]

I have had a couple of good go rounds with ioan but so what.
He is knowledgeable on much of F1 and also opinionated but again so what.
He has not got carried away on here so I can not see any reason for a ban.
Not my call though.

[henners88]

And the answer to that question folks..... has been deleted.

[Jag_Warrior]

Massa needs to get on with the program. You either give your 1000% at every race or if you can't/want to do it then help the team and team mate in whatever way you can. Otherwise why having two pilots?

What indication is there that Massa has not been giving it his all? They (clumsily) asked him to move aside and he did as he was asked. Right? Right! The fact that the team was too obvious in making the request is hardly Massa's fault.

I hope Massa doesn't get in trouble. But if he does, it's probably going to be because he's been caught lying to cover for the boneheaded way that Ferrari executed this "pass" after Alonso had a hissy fit on the radio. So again, he's "taking one for the team." If he wasn't loyal, he could just pull a Piquet, Jr. and spill ALL the beans. I'm confused as to what more you want from the guy.

[ioan]

Yes Pino. Please moderate the forum and give him a ban.

You've got a problem?
I'll be in Bucharest for a few hours, maybe we can meet at the airport and I'll kick your rear all the way back to your mommy.

[ioan]

1. Alonso is busting his.......derriere (and pardon my French).
Mr Whiney couldn't overtake Massa, so come back to me when you get a grip on reality.

[F1boat]

It seems clear now that the FIA comes down really hard on Ferrari every time they have a chance.

Yes! They don't have a wunderkind...

[Rusty Spanner]

Whether you agree or disagree with it the rule against team orders exists and is in the rule book all the teams signed up to race by when they filed their entries at the start of the season. The stewards decided Ferrari broke the rule and they handed out a penalty. The fact that the stewards have turned a blind eye - or failed to notice - in the past is an entirely separate problem.

Personally I'm glad the rule exists. Just because it was acceptable in the past in my mind sets no precedent in making it acceptable now. The nature of the sport and the publics expectations have changed (Observer changing the observed perhaps?). There is a culture of team orders in F1 that has gone too far and I think needs to be changed. The only way I can see of doing this is to punish teams when they break the rules.

I’ve got to admit the fact that it is Ferrari who might be made an example of by the FIA does have a certain pleasing symmetry to it. In the modern global-mega-money-and-audience era of F1 it seems to me it was Ferrari who really took team orders to a new level effectively sacrificing one driver for another from the very start of the season.

[wmcot]

There is a culture of team orders in F1 that has gone too far and I think needs to be changed. The only way I can see of doing this is to punish teams when they break the rules.


The culture of team orders has gone on as long as F1 has been around. Perhaps you are watching the wrong form of motor racing if you can't stand team orders.

To begin enforcing the rule now leads to everyone coming up with a conspiracy theory on virtually every radio conversation between the pit and the driver. We'll have all sorts of protests and we'll see even more race results decided weeks or months after races are over.

There are only 2 options concerning team orders:
1. Allow each team to decide if a team order is in its best interest as it sees fit just like any other corporation.
2. Allow each team to run 1 car. Team orders become impossible.


BTW - your last paragraph makes me question if you are really concerned about team orders or just Ferrari bashing.

[Rusty Spanner]

The culture of team orders has gone on as long as F1 has been around. Perhaps you are watching the wrong form of motor racing if you can't stand team orders.

Yes team orders have been around as long as F1, but the sport has changed during that time and so have audience expectations. I don't think it is acceptable any more to have a race manipulated the way it was.

Team orders at the end of the season when the championship is on the line are one thing. But basically setting out from day 1 and using team orders to focus solely on one driver I think is going too far. Yes I know every race and every point counts towards the championship so where you draw the line is very difficult to define but in this instance, in my opinion, they went too far.

Just because a rule is difficult to enforce doesn't make the rule wrong. We all know what happened at Hockenheim even though Ferrari state otherwise. We know, the media knows, the majortity of the watching audience knew and I don't think there is anyway it was good F1. So lets try - at least for a while - to see if things can be changed.

I'd like to see an F1 where there are 24 drivers competing to be World Champions, not 12 drivers and 12 co-drivers.

[ArrowsFA1]

There are only 2 options concerning team orders:
1. Allow each team to decide if a team order is in its best interest as it sees fit just like any other corporation.
Teams would certainly like to run themselves as they alone see fit but, as with corporations, they do not and cannot work or compete in complete isolation.

That, in essence, was why there was such an outcry when Austria '02 happened. It was Ferrari acting in their own self interests with absolutely no consideration for anything or anyone else. If they, or anyone, does that they they can expect a reaction.