Team orders at Ferrari

[Mark]

:mad:

[Zico]

Indeed.. I feel so sorry for Fellipe.

[SkyTom]

Disgusting.

[Dave B]

Disgusting, and not even subtle. I hope they get disqualified for that blatant breach of the team orders rule.

[christophulus]

F1 Sporting Regulations:


39.1 Team orders which interfere with a race result are prohibited.

Disqualify them both, please. Otherwise this is a joke.

[Hawkmoon]

No different to what McLaren pulled in Turkey.

[Mark]

The problem is that they were not specifically ordered Massa was informed that Alonso was faster. I feel sorry for Rob Smedley having to deliver that news, he sounded gutted.

[gloomyDAY]

No different to what McLaren pulled in Turkey.Yes, but I'm still bent out of shape since Massa gets dumped on AGAIN! :angryfire

[Somebody]

The problem is that they were not specifically ordered Massa was informed that Alonso was faster.
No, it was "Fernando. Is. Faster. Than. You. Confirm you understand". And later, "Sorry mate". A deaf man couldn't fail to heard the message there.

They should take Ferrari's constructor points FOR THE SEASON over this.

[Hawkmoon]

I feel sorry for Massa too. I want a Ferrari 1-2. But more than that I want Ferrari world championship. Alonso can do that this year, Massa can't.

All this righteous indignation is misplaced, in my opinion.

[Dave B]

The stewards should request the data which proves Alonso was faster, that should be evidence enough to DQ Ferrari. Still, we know that Alonso will accept a win at the expense of his team mate, singapore taught us that.

[markabilly]

opps thread here

the "sorry" comment after the pass says it all...if vettel were really pushing to the point of passing FA, that would be one thing...or if they only had one wing to pass around........but this is a clear violation, as in crystal.

[christophulus]

The most gutting thing of all is it's a year to the day that Massa had his accident in Hungary, and he's had a deserved win taken away from him. :down:

[Hawkmoon]

The stewards should request the data which proves Alonso was faster, that should be evidence enough to DQ Ferrari. Still, we know that Alonso will accept a win at the expense of his team mate, singapore taught us that.

I assume you wanted them to get data from both McLaren and Red Bull in Turkey as well?

[ioan]

:down: :down: :down: Ferrari, Alonso and dare I say Santander!
:down: :up: Smedley and Massa for making the team orders so obvious but still bending over.

I'll never support these Italian cheap-shots again.

[Ranger]

The rule needs to be scrapped.

Breaches as obvious as this make a joke of the whole rule... not that other teams don't do it.

[ioan]

The most gutting thing of all is it's a year to the day that Massa had his accident in Hungary, and he's had a deserved win taken away from him. :down:

yep, this makes it even worse.

[markabilly]

The stewards should request the data which proves Alonso was faster, that should be evidence enough to DQ Ferrari. Still, we know that Alonso will accept a win at the expense of his team mate, singapore taught us that.
Does not matter if he was faster or not...faster is one thing, passing is another --and that is the key---as proven in every F1 race for the last ten years or more, and since vettel was not that much of a threat...well???????

[ioan]

I feel sorry for Massa too. I want a Ferrari 1-2. But more than that I want Ferrari world championship. Alonso can do that this year, Massa can't.

Who says Alonso CAN do it?
I hope Alonso doesn't get even 3rd place in the championship.

[christophulus]

"Fernando - no need to save fuel"

Translation: For god's sake, do the fastest lap in case the stewards start poking around.

:down:

[SilverArrows]

That was so unfair. I can understand team orders if one driver is mathematically out of the championship and the other isn't, or if one car has a mechanical problem, but I can't see the justification of Ferrari ordering Alonso past Massa. Felipe was driving a superb race and fully deserved the victory today :mad:

[ioan]

Translation: For god's sake, do the fastest lap in case the stewards start poking around.

:down:

And us all a favor, spun out so that we do not have to see your face on the podium.

[Hawkmoon]

Who says Alonso CAN do it?
I hope Alonso doesn't get even 3rd place in the championship.

C'mon ioan, Alonso has been faster than Massa all year and was 30+ points ahead before this race. I like Massa but of the Ferrari drivers Alonso has the only realistic shot at the title.

[ioan]

C'mon ioan, Alonso has been faster than Massa all year and was 30+ points ahead before this race. I like Massa but of the Ferrari drivers Alonso has the only realistic shot at the title.

He was faster? Then why was he not ahead?
This is racing not cruising around.

The team had the 1st and 2nd position secured. This was not needed.

If I was Massa I would have taken him out when he pulled alongside after that turn.

[markabilly]

if vettel passes massa and then fred gets put back behind massa, does that make Vettel the winner??
If so, that should bring tears of joy to valve Bounce.....

[ioan]

A huge :down: for Smedley for what he said 2 seconds ago to the ORF reporter.

[gloomyDAY]

A huge :down: for Smedley for what he said 2 seconds ago to the ORF reporter.What did he do?

[CNR]

what a joke

its just not cricket


Australian slang: Having something that is unjust or just plain wrong done to someone or something.This come from the game of cricket (http://www.motorsportforums.com/define.php?term=cricket) which is regarded as a gentlemans game were fairplay was paramount.
1stperson :D id you see that guy punch that other guy.

[Ranger]

Ferrari will ride Felipe as long as he lets them.

He needs to get a better contract or this will continue.

[ioan]

What did he do?

He said there was no team decision just a clean pass.

[Mark]

Point of order. English slang I'll have you know!

[Hawkmoon]

He was faster? Then why was he not ahead?
This is racing not cruising around.

The team had the 1st and 2nd position secured. This was not needed.

Today? Yes he was, but not by much. Over the course of the season? Clearly. Have a look at the qualifying results.

It was needed for the championship.

[ioan]

Ferrari will ride Felipe as long as he lets them.

He needs to get a better contract or this will continue.

He needs to humiliate them and get out of there, and this was the right occasion for doing that with a win.
He's got the money to live a nice life and he won't win any championship with Alonso at Ferrari.

[Mark]

Maybe. But the fact remains is that it is against he rules!

[ioan]

Today? Yes he was, but not by much. Over the course of the season? Clearly. Have a look at the qualifying results.

It was needed for the championship.

What championship?

Alonso is not half the driver some like to make him look like, he couldn't hold a candle to Hamilton or Vettel.

[Dave B]

Why did we not see a caption saying that the incident would be investigated after the race? :s

I've not seen such blatant race fixing since Austria 2002 (Ferrari) or Singapore '08 (Alonso). I'm ashamed for the sport and sorry for Massa.

[UltimateDanGTR]

poor old Massa, Fernando's win this isn't.

I hope the stewards do the right thing and DQ Alonso, and IMO NOT Massa-who was only following 'orders' and obeying his employers.

[Dave B]

What's galling is the knowledge that had that been any other team, Alonso would have been wah-wah-wah-ing on the radio to get them investigated, the hypocrite.

[Hawkmoon]

Why did we not see a caption saying that the incident would be investigated after the race? :s

I've not seen such blatant race fixing since Austria 2002 (Ferrari) or Singapore '08 (Alonso). I'm ashamed for the sport and sorry for Massa.

A little melodramatic don't you think?

[ioan]

Red Bull hopes that the FIA and race direction takes measures.

[Dave B]

A little melodramatic don't you think?
No.

Look back over this thread, you're a lone voice. Even Ferrari fans are ashamed of their team's actions today.

[ioan]

A little melodramatic don't you think?

Maybe but still true.

[ioan]

No.

Look back over this thread, you're a lone voice. Even Ferrari fans are ashamed of their team's actions today.

Please don't count me as a Ferrari fan, I only support Felipe.

[gloomyDAY]

Red Bull hopes that the FIA and race direction takes measures.Ha! Nothing will come of this, I'm sure.

[CNR]

Ferrari have the right sponsors but the
logo neens to be brown

[Dave B]

Please don't count me as a Ferrari fan, I only support Felipe.
Fair play, and my apologies. Can't say I blame you :)

[markabilly]

what a joke, pretty boring race until ferrari managment comes along.....

I do not agree at all with this rule, think it stupid, but the RULE SAYS WHAT IT SAYS.

The only way this violation would have been clearer is this:

"err, Mr. Massa, we have a problem as Rule 39.1 says team orders which interfere with a race result are prohibited, so we are not saying this is a team order, but Fernando is faster than you. Can you confirm you understood that message and what we really mean by that code?"


and after the pass:
"sorry"

(oops they really did say sorry after massa understood the code)

Even funnier is earlier in the race Smedley told him that "we can win"

So bottom line, either the rule means what is says and penalties MUST follow or the rule is a total joke and should be abolished

(Indeed the only difference between this and Singapore, is that Massa was not told to crash and affect everyone's race, so maybe the rule has some merit after all)

[Hawkmoon]

No.

Look back over this thread, you're a lone voice. Even Ferrari fans are ashamed of their team's actions today.

Alonso wins the title I'm sure all the disgruntled Ferrari fans will forget about this pretty quick.

Besides, I'm the only Ferrari in this thread. Ioan gave up his membership months ago.

[driveace]

Ban Ferrari from the results,for this race and also for the next3 races TOO,
That was against all the rules of the sport
The rules are clear NO TEAM ORDERS!!!!!!!

[Rodster]

Please don't count me as a Ferrari fan, I only support Felipe.


Ban Ferrari from the results,for this race and also for the next3 races TOO,
That was against all the rules of the sport
The rules are clear NO TEAM ORDERS!!!!!!!

Agreed !

I hope the FIA investigates and disqualifies both Alonso and Ferrari. Do the idiots running Ferrari not learn from Austria and another Brazilian #2 driver who indured the same circumstance.

I really hope they all get DQ'd just to see Luca cry on camera.

[steveaki13]

Yer Christian Horner saying on BBC it was blatant team orders. He is sending a message that Red Bull could get the win.

[Robinho]

Alonso claims in the press conference that he doesn't know what happened to Massa, and Massa is not saying anything to say it was his mistake or anything, just "i don't need to say anything" and "he passed me"

[christophulus]

There was not a hint of applause in the FIA Media Centre in Germany when Fernando Alonso crossed the finish line to “win” the German Grand Prix.

When the Ferrari press officer arrived in the Media Centre he went straight on to the defensive, without anyone even suggesting that the whole thing was a farce. That said it all. If Alonso was faster he could have proved it by overtaking Massa. Instead he whined on the radio (as usual) and in the end Massa was “convinced” to let him move ahead.

http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2010/07/25/a-hollow-victory-for-alonso/

[Dave B]

Gawd bless Massa, he really does know the meaning of "taking one for the team", doesn't he? They should paint "welcome" on his forehead, so that everybody knows he's a doormat.

[jonny hurlock]

Same old Ferrari, sad for massa, tipical old school Ferrari enough said IMO

[VkmSpouge]

The switch was clearly against the rules. Ferrari undoubtedly deserved a 1-2 today but they managed to spoil what should be a great night of celebration with them ordering Massa to let Alonso passed. Lets see what the FIA make of this.

[Robinho]

Smedley clearly didn't agree hece the lack of veil with his message, since then someone has clearly had a quiet word and he's gone all team line. Alonso claiming he didn't know what happened is laughable, even less likely that he didn't know about Singapore!

Massa will not be seen near the front of a race this year, given he will now have zero confidence, something he requires to be at the front

[truefan72]

massa's words in the press conference are telling

if the FIA don't investigate this then they loose all credibility.
because I tell you if it was mclaren, they would have already issued an investigation notice and alter on today banned both drivers for the next race and stripped them of points.

This to me is what needs to happen because they clearly broke the rules. It is not even a gray area matter but a straight up breaking of the rules. So we will wait and see if the fIA are going to live by their rules or loose all credibility

[Rodster]

The switch was clearly against the rules. Ferrari undoubtedly deserved a 1-2 today but they managed to spoil what should be a great night of celebration with them ordering Massa to let Alonso passed. Lets see what the FIA make of this.

Yes I can't wait either since the man who is now the FIA President was involved in the previous controversy which led to the team order ban.

[greencroft]

The stewards have come in for their fair share of crtiticism this year - now's the time to redeem themselves. Blatant cheating requires a firm hand and Ferrari should be hit where it hurts - strip them of all points just as they stripped us of the race we fans pay to watch.

[Dave B]

Susy's just reminded me who it was moaning about "munipulated races" a few weeks ago... :erm:

[Rodster]

Smedley clearly didn't agree hece the lack of veil with his message, since then someone has clearly had a quiet word and he's gone all team line. Alonso claiming he didn't know what happened is laughable, even less likely that he didn't know about Singapore!

Massa will not be seen near the front of a race this year, given he will now have zero confidence, something he requires to be at the front

It's worse than that. Ferrari will make sure his car is nowhere as close to performance as Alonso. Close but not close enough in pace. I am really really hoping for a Ferrari DQ !

[truefan72]

and watching it again on the replay it is even worse. all the fIA need is the communication, and the telemetry and it should be a no brainer to penalize ferrari

[steveaki13]

I think the press conference was very telling, it didn't show Ferrari and one of their drivers in a good light.

Alonso saying something along the lines of "I saw Massa have a problem at the hairpin and struggle to get out of the corner and I took advantage as you don't get many chances to pass in F1".

Who does he think he is, believing we are dumb enough to buy that. Insulting

[truefan72]

smedley is a decent chap but his post race comments make no sense, why have they not been called into the office?

[ioan]

Ferrari have the right sponsors but the
logo neens to be brown

How true.

[ioan]

I think the press conference was very telling, it didn't show Ferrari and one of their drivers in a good light.

Alonso saying something along the lines of "I saw Massa have a problem at the hairpin and struggle to get out of the corner and I took advantage as you don't get many chances to pass in F1".

Who does he think he is, believing we are dumb enough to buy that. Insulting

Alonso is a piece of something stinky that people shouldn't touch, not even with a very long stick.

Back in 2005 I supported Kimi for the WDC and there was a good reason to it.

[Dave B]

A few weeks ago I'd have said that Teflon boy always escapes punishment, but hopefully now things have changed and he'll be stripped of this result, and Ferrari DQd.

[ioan]

Susy's just reminded me who it was moaning about "munipulated races" a few weeks ago... :erm:

Don't even bother Dave, the guy is a disgrace and McLaren did the right thing when they send him packing.

[ioan]

A few weeks ago I'd have said that Teflon boy always escapes punishment, but hopefully now things have changed and he'll be stripped of this result, and Ferrari DQd.

Nothing will happen.
Today is the day when we will be sorry that Max Mosley left last season, cause he would have rattled the boat over what happened today, no question about this.

[DazzlaF1]

massa's words in the press conference are telling

if the FIA don't investigate this then they loose all credibility.
because I tell you if it was mclaren, they would have already issued an investigation notice and alter on today banned both drivers for the next race and stripped them of points.

This to me is what needs to happen because they clearly broke the rules. It is not even a gray area matter but a straight up breaking of the rules. So we will wait and see if the fIA are going to live by their rules or loose all credibility

Absolutely, the rule could not be more clearly written.

Article 39:1 clearly states "Team Orders which interfere with a race result are prohibited"

What Ferrari did was in clear violation of that rule.

In all this though, we forget that there was a victim in all this, Felipe Massa. He led close to 50 laps and deserved the win today, I cant imagine what he must be like at the moment.

[AndyRAC]

What happens if you have put money on Massa to win? Especially as team orders are banned, or are they?

[christophulus]

Rob Smedley, Race Engineer to Felipe Massa, does not expect German Grand Prix winner Fernando Alonso to be handed a penalty following Massa’s yielding to the Spaniard on Sunday.


However, following a radio message stating, ‘Fernando-is-faster-than-you ; can you confirm that message?’ the Brazilian slowed to allow the former double Champion past on Lap 48.

“I don’t expect any penalties whatsoever because Alonso was just faster and Massa made a small mistake when shifting up three gears at once,” Smedley told Germany’s Sky Sports after the race.

Disgusting, Rob. Grow some balls.

http://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/239665/smedley-not-expecting-alonso-penalty/

[markabilly]

Absolutely, the rule could not be more clearly written.

Article 39:1 clearly states "Team Orders which interfere with a race result are prohibited"

What Ferrari did was in clear violation of that rule.

In all this though, we forget that there was a victim in all this, Felipe Massa. He led close to 50 laps and deserved the win today, I cant imagine what he must be like at the moment.
true, but it will now take a formal protest by someone as I have seen nothing where it says race result is provisional and the stewards are investigating the race results

anyone have any info on that?

(funny is how ferrari seems to be acting as though there already is an investigation)

[gloomyDAY]

Where's Garry Walker? I can't wait for that foo' to drop a nuclear bomb on this joint.

[christophulus]

What happens if you have put money on Massa to win? Especially as team orders are banned, or are they?

Ha, I was going to put a bet on Massa and didn't, as I knew Ferrari wouldn't let him win. Didn't think it would be this blatant though.

[truefan72]

I think the press conference was very telling, it didn't show Ferrari and one of their drivers in a good light.

Alonso saying something along the lines of "I saw Massa have a problem at the hairpin and struggle to get out of the corner and I took advantage as you don't get many chances to pass in F1".

Who does he think he is, believing we are dumb enough to buy that. Insulting

very insulting. We are not idiots

the only thing massa was struggling was, was coming to grips with what he was hearing over his radio, he basically pulled over and let mr.crybaby through.

[gloomyDAY]

Disgusting, Rob. Grow some balls.

http://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/239665/smedley-not-expecting-alonso-penalty/Wow! Rob expects fans to buy that crap?

“I don’t expect any penalties whatsoever because Alonso was just faster and Massa made a small mistake when shifting up three gears at once.”

:rolleyes:

[DazzlaF1]

true, but it will now take a formal protest by someone as I have seen nothing where it says race result is provisional and the stewards are investigating the race results

anyone have any info on that?

(funny is how ferrari seems to be acting as though there already is an investigation)

There doesnt always need to be a protest, the FIA can investigate this on their own accord like they do with on-track incidents like...well...Alonso cutting the chicane to pass Kubica 2 weeks ago.

Oh and as I noticed up on the thread, im reminded of Alonso's "this race is manipulated" moan over the radio just 4 weeks ago in Valencia, I sense a bit of hypocrisy.

[steveaki13]

Question.

If the rule wasn't bought in to ban team orders a while ago, would the reaction be different.

Don't get me wrong I am really disappointed with the way things happened, but I would just like to know.

[ioan]

Wow! Rob expects fans to buy that crap?

“I don’t expect any penalties whatsoever because Alonso was just faster and Massa made a small mistake when shifting up three gears at once.”

:rolleyes:

All the players from the big circus are taking the fans for idiots, it's been like this for years already.
And we are idiots because we watch the same crap again and again no matter what.

[ioan]

Question.

If the rule wasn't bought in to ban team orders a while ago, would the reaction be different.

Don't get me wrong I am really disappointed with the way things happened, but I would just like to know.

I would probably still be unhappy however it would have been legal to do it, even if unfair.

[Hawkmoon]

Wow! Rob expects fans to buy that crap?

“I don’t expect any penalties whatsoever because Alonso was just faster and Massa made a small mistake when shifting up three gears at once.”

:rolleyes:

What do you expect Smedley to do? Sure he's disappointed but he's not stupid. He knows there's nothing to gain by making things harder for the team. Felipe has already done that (not that I blame him by the way, even if I have no problem with the call).

[markabilly]

Is there any official investigation or protest?
I have heard nothing, so are we all moaning over nothing except prinicple????

[DazzlaF1]

Wow! Rob expects fans to buy that crap?

“I don’t expect any penalties whatsoever because Alonso was just faster and Massa made a small mistake when shifting up three gears at once.”

:rolleyes:

Sorry Ferrari, us fans are not as gullible as you think we are

[Dave B]

Question.

If the rule wasn't bought in to ban team orders a while ago, would the reaction be different.

Don't get me wrong I am really disappointed with the way things happened, but I would just like to know.
I do have some limited sympathy with the view that it's not a good rule, but once it was decided that this is the rule then the drivers and teams must respect it. Ferrari didn't.

[truefan72]

Question.

If the rule wasn't bought in to ban team orders a while ago, would the reaction be different.

Don't get me wrong I am really disappointed with the way things happened, but I would just like to know.

people would still be angry and even though there might not be a penalty for the action, it will still be a pr disaster for F1 and leave millions of fans disturbed by the result. A quick look at how the audience reacted to the podium celebration and post race should tell you that most were disgusted

[gloomyDAY]

What do you expect Smedley to do? Sure he's disappointed but he's not stupid. He knows there's nothing to gain by making things harder for the team. Felipe has already done that (not that I blame him by the way, even if I have no problem with the call).Just hard for me to understand how Rob can say that to the press. I thought Rob would be too ashamed to say anything and just skip away to his trailer.


Is there any official investigation or protest?
I have heard nothing, so are we all moaning over nothing except prinicple????No and yes.

[Hawkmoon]

Is there any official investigation or protest?
I have heard nothing, so are we all moaning over nothing except prinicple????

I'd say so. I don't think any of the teams will make a formal protest as they know the same thing could happen to them. If Red Bull protest this result then they are going to have a problem if they need to do something similar in the last couple of races.

[Robinho]

3 gears at once my arse, the replay with telemetry clearly showed that he was not on full throttle and shifted at about 14k revs for a couple fo gears and then got back on the gas when Alonso was nealry alongside, there was no mistake and it is so insulting to suggest there was.

They have brought a ****storm on themselves and are cowering trying to deflect the brown stuff.

Massa may have been a little lucky to find himself in the lead but once there he deserved it and Alonso couldn't pass, that should have been race over

[steveaki13]

All Ferrari members being interview at the moment are all treating us like idiots.

"Their were no orders given"
"What decision"
"Felipe struggling on hard tyres"

All B.S

[markabilly]

I'd say so. I don't think any of the teams will make a formal protest as they know the same thing could happen to them. If Red Bull protest this result then they are going to have a problem if they need to do something similar in the last couple of races.
if there is no investigation, then the rule needs to go......

what a joke

[ioan]

I'd say so. I don't think any of the teams will make a formal protest as they know the same thing could happen to them. If Red Bull protest this result then they are going to have a problem if they need to do something similar in the last couple of races.

IMO RBR should protest even if it is just because they can be sure that if hey do something half as bad later this season Ferrari will protest it without thinking twice.

RBR and McLaren should be the ones who make it stick now. I sure would do it.

[christophulus]

I do have some limited sympathy with the view that it's not a good rule, but once it was decided that this is the rule then the drivers and teams must respect it. Ferrari didn't.

It's not so much the "rule breaking" that's the problem, but the vast majority of the fans feel cheated. Massa deserved that win and the fans agree. And their whitewashing is a joke, the fans are not stupid.

[markabilly]

3 gears at once my arse, the replay with telemetry clearly showed that he was not on full throttle and shifted at about 14k revs for a couple fo gears and then got back on the gas when Alonso was nealry alongside, there was no mistake and it is so insulting to suggest there was.

They have brought a ****storm on themselves and are cowering trying to deflect the brown stuff.

Massa may have been a little lucky to find himself in the lead but once there he deserved it and Alonso couldn't pass, that should have been race over
oh yes, that little TV screen stuff.......opps :eek:

Actually drivers always slow down after a hairpin turn......

But in the absence of a real investigation, well, it is now only principle

[Dave B]

It's not so much the "rule breaking" that's the problem, but the vast majority of the fans feel cheated. Massa deserved that win and the fans agree. And their whitewashing is a joke, the fans are not stupid.
I agree. F1 needs to decide if it's a team sport or a driver sport. If it really is a team sport, like football, then to borrow footballing language it doesn't matter who scores the goals just as long as somebody does.

But all the time there's a drivers' championship, team orders should be banned.

If Alonso was quicker, he should have overtaken Massa. He did try earlier in the race, and failed. The only team order should have been not to take each other out.

[christophulus]

The Whiner is insisting in the post-race interviews that he was faster all weekend. So what? Why race at all? Vettel was fastest in qualifying so surely we should just give him the win on Saturday and be done with it?

Glad to see the press are laying into Ferrari over this.

[DazzlaF1]

The press conference, Alonso's reply to all the questions from the media (from Ted Kravitz, BBC)

"I was faster than Felipe all weekend and I was 2 thousandths off pole, Felipe was'nt"

And Massa

"It was my decision to let Fernando through"

Any bets that Ferrari have told Felipe what to say?

[Dave B]

The Whiner is insisting in the post-race interviews that he was faster all weekend. So what? Why race at all? Vettel was fastest in qualifying so surely we should just give him the win on Saturday and be done with it?
Very good point. If you're faster, overtake the guy and win the race on the track - not on the pit wall.

[christophulus]

Ferrari has been summoned to see the stewards following the German GP team orders controversy.

http://twitter.com/NobleF1

[Hawkmoon]

IMO RBR should protest even if it is just because they can be sure that if hey do something half as bad later this season Ferrari will protest it without thinking twice.

RBR and McLaren should be the ones who make it stick now. I sure would do it.

Of course Ferrari would protest. If they can't do why should the other teams get away with it? They would be no more hypocritical than Red Bull who protested Ferrari and then did the same thing.

[ioan]

The Whiner is insisting in the post-race interviews that he was faster all weekend. So what? Why race at all? Vettel was fastest in qualifying so surely we should just give him the win on Saturday and be done with it?

Glad to see the press are laying into Ferrari over this.

Screw mono-brow, I feel a need to vomit as soon as I see his name.

[DazzlaF1]

Very good point. If you're faster, overtake the guy and win the race on the track - not on the pit wall.

Seconded :beer:

[Hawkmoon]

I'm off to bed. Have fun burning all those Ferrari flags! ;)

[Tazio]

Bad form by Ferrari, but I'll take it ;)
Massa never would have been in p1 if Vettel hadn't have tried to plant Fred into the wall! That doesn't make it any less unfair to Massa. He drove a decent race with clean air for the majority of the laps. Ferrari being 1, 2 gave them the luxury of posturing themselves for the best result for both championships.
That’s my take!

[steveaki13]

I wonder what would have happened if Massa had waited and done a Barrichello and let Alonso past in the last corner.

[markabilly]

so there will be an investigation after all, and NOW I really feel bad for Massa....what is the poor guy to do???

How would you like to be in his shoes. :confused:

He could lie, but who would beleive that when he says (1) screwed up the shifting or (2) it was my decision and nobody else's........

If he says the truth, well next year or sooner, he could drive a lotus... :eek:

best he could hope for is a swap out with webber.....but imagine Webber pulling over for freddie...just as the door is opened, his real nature kicks into play, and chop...off goeth Alonso... :rotflmao:




Meanwhile vettel says, oh, you are just the team mate i always wanted...but why is "welcome" written on your forehead???

[steveaki13]

Bad form by Ferrari, but I'll take it ;)
Massa never would have been in p1 if Vettel hadn't have tried to plant Fred into the wall! That doesn't make it any less unfair to Massa. He drove a decent race with clean air for the majority of the laps. Ferrari being 1, 2 gave them the luxury of posturing themselves for the best result for both championships.
That’s my take!


One voice singing in the darkness. :eek:

[christophulus]

NOW I really feel bad for Massa....what is the poor guy to do???

If he says the truth, well next year or sooner, he could drive a lotus... :eek:


I hope he leaves, why would anyone want to be a number 2 driver, picking up scraps that the management give you? Massa needs to at least be on equal footing with his team-mate, and if he has to move teams to do it then he should do.

[steveaki13]

Interesting

Martin Brundle just made the point and I think someone here made earlier, why is the Stewards inquiry starting now, if its worthy of investigation why didn't a message come up with 15 laps to go "Incident will be investigated after the race"

[Rodster]

I wonder what would have happened if Massa had waited and done a Barrichello and let Alonso past in the last corner.

That would have been quite funny. :D

[DazzlaF1]

Interesting

Martin Brundle just made the point and I think someone here made earlier, why is the Stewards inquiry starting now, if its worthy of investigation why didn't a message come up with 15 laps to go "Incident will be investigated after the race"

I find that bizarre too, I mean we all saw the move happen there and then, we heard the radio feeds.

I thought the FIA had gotten over the "long delay in decision making" malarky after that mess over Hamilton's safety car pass in Valencia

[christophulus]

if its worthy of investigation why didn't a message come up with 15 laps to go "Incident will be investigated after the race"

Media and fan pressure? No-one, bar half of the Ferrari team, is happy about what happened.

[steveaki13]

That would have been quite funny. :D


Yer then Ferrari would struggle to argue it wasn't team orders and they would have all cried on the wall "Not Again"

[ioan]

I'm off to bed. Have fun burning all those Ferrari flags! ;)

Luckily I never had one given the price they are asking for them.

[markabilly]

From the true Machevillian aka markabilly point of view, the worst thing of all, is that there are so many better ways of having team orders control, where it can be debated as to what may have happenned, IF EVEN NOTICED AT ALL; yet, here it is so stupidly, clearly, obviously, in your face, blatant....


How stupid can ferrari be???

[truefan72]

Interesting

Martin Brundle just made the point and I think someone here made earlier, why is the Stewards inquiry starting now, if its worthy of investigation why didn't a message come up with 15 laps to go "Incident will be investigated after the race"

I think the todt lead FIA were planning on doing nothing before figuring out the massive fallout that is sure to ensure from this outcome from fans, media, the press, betting sites, sponsors, race organizers, promoters, tv channels and the millions they invest to produce and deliver the race, etc will all be a situation that the sport would have a tough time reconciling with. People expect a race not a fixed outcome.

[Somebody]

Vettel, after the Beeb showed him the clip: "I think the FIA know what the rules are and what they should do."

Also, that he's relieved the "many bad questions" are directed at someone else :)

[Dave B]

From the true Machevillian aka markabilly point of view, the worst thing of all, is that there are so many better ways of having team orders control, where it can be debated as to what may have happenned, IF EVEN NOTICED AT ALL; yet, here it is so stupidly, clearly, obviously, in your face, blatant....

Indeed. Conserve fuel, look after your brakes, change your engine mapping... any of those would have at least disguised the order. Ferrari added insult to injury by treating everybody like idiots.

[Easy Drifter]

The FIA are seeing the outrage and suddenly decided 'OOOOOPs. We had better pretend to look at this.'
I will now watch the FOX (Speed) broadcast at noon our time and see what Varsha, Hobbs and Matchett have to say. Hobbs is usually sarcastic and Matchett doesn't pull any punches.

[ioan]

One voice singing in the darkness. :eek:

That's an Alonso fan for sure! ;)

[ioan]

Interesting

Martin Brundle just made the point and I think someone here made earlier, why is the Stewards inquiry starting now, if its worthy of investigation why didn't a message come up with 15 laps to go "Incident will be investigated after the race"

Maybe Williams complained, good for them, I can't see any other team doing it.

[Dave B]

Maybe Williams complained, good for them, I can't see any other team doing it.
AFAIK the stewards can investigate without receiving a protest from a rival team. They rarely do, of course, but that's another matter...

[DazzlaF1]

Indeed. Conserve fuel, look after your brakes, change your engine mapping... any of those would have at least disguised the order. Ferrari added insult to injury by treating everybody like idiots.

Its like they're thinking "Its ok, we're FERRARI, the darlings of the sport, the fans and the media will believe anything we say"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McAeQiLmEYU&feature=related

[donKey jote]

poor old Massa, Fernando's win this isn't.

I hope the stewards do the right thing and DQ Alonso, and IMO NOT Massa-who was only following 'orders' and obeying his employers.

Riiight :dozey:

DQ Alonso who was only following 'orders' and obeying his employers ?

At most penalise Ferrari for being donkeys.

And Ferrari should penalise Smedley for making it blatant :devil:

[N. Jones]

Wow, five pages already? I guess I am very late to the party.

I'll be short and to the point - it was badly disguised team orders and since they are banned I believe a penalty is in order.

Whether the team order ban should be removed is a very different subject.

[Tazio]

One voice singing in the darkness. :eek:

Whatever bro :s ailor: :p
The rest of the field should be worried about the fact that Ferraris lapped all the way up to p7, and finished almost 1/2 minute ahead of the McLarens! :arrows:

[jas123f1]

:down: :down: :down: Ferrari, Alonso and dare I say Santander!
:down: :up: Smedley and Massa for making the team orders so obvious but still bending over.

I'll never support these Italian cheap-shots again.

Do you think, it was better in Schumachers time at Ferrari?

But you are right, it's B*** S***....

[DazzlaF1]

Whatever bro :s ailor: :p
The rest of the field should be worried about the fact that Ferraris lapped all the way up to p7, and finished almost 1/2 minute ahead of the McLarens! :arrows:

Yet still they could not totally shake off Sebastian Vettel

[Dave B]

Whatever bro :s ailor: :p
The rest of the field should be worried about the fact that Ferraris lapped all the way up to p7, and finished almost 1/2 minute ahead of the McLarens! :arrows:
If anything that makes it worse. Ferrari owned this weekend, they were quick from Friday morning onwards and clearly had this win in the bag from the second corner of the first lap. They didn't need to resort to such dirty tactics to net a 1 - 2.

[DazzlaF1]

BBC F1 Forum: Alonso and Massa both called in to face the stewards

[Dave B]

BBC reporting that Ferrari team management have left the stewards' office, while the drivers and Rob Smedley have just gone in.

Edit: snap! :p

[DazzlaF1]

Do you think, it was better in Schumachers time at Ferrari?

But you are right, it's B*** S***....

We all were flabbergasted and angry when they pulled that move in Austria 2002 and then again later that year in Indianapolis.

They admitted it at the time but back then it was not against the rules.

[ioan]

The press conference, Alonso's reply to all the questions from the media (from Ted Kravitz, BBC)

"I was faster than Felipe all weekend and I was 2 thousandths off pole, Felipe was'nt"

And Massa

"It was my decision to let Fernando through"

Any bets that Ferrari have told Felipe what to say?

The worst part is that Felipe keeps saying what Ferrari tell him to say.
What the F man, get yourself some dignity or you will sink in the $h!t with these pigs.

[DazzlaF1]

BBC reporting that Ferrari team management have left the stewards' office, while the drivers and Rob Smedley have just gone in.

Edit: snap! :p

I expect they'll be shown their own radio feeds, and then they'll be flummoxed

[ioan]

If anything that makes it worse. Ferrari owned this weekend, they were quick from Friday morning onwards and clearly had this win in the bag from the second corner of the first lap. They didn't need to resort to such dirty tactics to net a 1 - 2.

They managed to turn their best race of the year into a complete disgrace, I wonder how can they be so stupid?!

[Tazio]

Yet still they could not totally shake off Sebastian VettelA very good point:
If the Ferrari results stand (and yes I think the pass was dubious) it means they put a dent in the team that they were furthest behind. With major upgrades coming for Spa, this result was massive for the wcc.

[ioan]

Do you think, it was better in Schumachers time at Ferrari?

Back then it wasn't illegal.
Worst part today is that they did this openly with everything in the air so that we could all hear it and they take us for idiots afterward saying it wasn't team orders.

[DazzlaF1]

BBC: Alonso leaves the stewards room with a big smile on his face, Felipe leaves alone looking glum

[Somebody]

Alonso apparently happy coming out of the stewards' office.

[harsha]

after austria 2002 and singapore 2008 , this has to be the biggest farce that i've seen

[Rodster]

BBC: Alonso leaves the stewards room with a big smile on his face, Felipe leaves alone looking glum

Shameful because they all decided on what to say to the stewards so their stories matched. Total BS.

[christophulus]

Back then it wasn't illegal.
Worst part today is that they did this openly with everything in the air so that we could all hear it and they take us for idiots afterward saying it wasn't team orders.

Doesn't matter, as a fan that's what first made me dislike Ferrari back in 2002. This is a sport, run for the fans, and the vast majority are furious with what Ferrari have done. Whether they manage to wriggle out of this or not, they've lost a lot more support today.

[ioan]

Indeed. Conserve fuel, look after your brakes, change your engine mapping... any of those would have at least disguised the order. Ferrari added insult to injury by treating everybody like idiots.

I have to say that Smedley did save a bit of his integrity in my eyes by making things so obvious in his radio messages.

[donKey jote]

I have to say he deserves a good spanking from Luca :p

[Dave B]

Press conference...

Q: Why did Rob Smedley apologise to Massa?

Domenicalli: It was not an apology like that, he was giving the information to Massa. We didn't make so clearly, we just gave the information to the driver.

I paraphrase, but you get the idea. He's covering.

[DazzlaF1]

I have to say that Smedley did save a bit of his integrity in my eyes by making things so obvious in his radio messages.

Smedley is arguably the man in the most difficult position, he gave the "coded" messages to Massa and in his conversations with him he seemed genuinely upset. Could it have been Domenicali (or even di Montezemolo) giving orders to Smedley to pass on to Massa, taking advantage of this special relationship they have.

[markabilly]

Prediction:
In Meeting,
Massa falls on sword.
Ferrari cleared.
Massa and Smedley keep their jobs, for a while longer


BTW-I think that Mac has been playing games on Button all year long, but none of the time, could you actually have much if any evidence that it was a team order rule violation....ferrari is so stupid

[Koz]

I have to say that Smedley did save a bit of his integrity in my eyes by making things so obvious in his radio messages.

Agreed; his days are numbered.

[christophulus]

Prediction:
In Meeting,
Massa falls on sword.
Ferrari cleared.
Massa and Smedley keep their jobs, for a while longer

Absolutely.

Further prediction: F1 fan ratings plummet overnight.

[DazzlaF1]

BBC now saying that the FIA could end up being forced to take Ferrari's word on the events and leave the result to stand.

Cue a furious backlash from all quarters and it would pretty much render Article 39.1 pointless.

[Dave B]

If this pass is deemed legal, then that has implications for the battles between Webber & Vettel, and Button & Hamilton. The gloves wil be off. The FIA simply have to act to nip this in the bud.

[Mark]

Alonso is talking a load of balls on TV now.

[donKey jote]

BTW-I think that Mac has been playing games on Button all year long, but none of the time, could you actually have much if any evidence that it was a team order rule violation....ferrari is so stupid

agree on both counts, specially on Ferrari being stupid :laugh:

[markabilly]

BBC now saying that the FIA could end up being forced to take Ferrari's word on the events and leave the result to stand.

Cue a furious backlash from all quarters and it would pretty much render Article 39.1 pointless.
well, if they simply take what will now be probably Massa's words trying to save his job (along with Smedley's job), that it was solely his decsision

or even some language, of , "oh, english not my first langage, and I mis-understood, they were really just warning me that FA was faster, and dumb me, I just thought by mistake, they meant move over.....and besides those gear shifts are tricky things, yaydayaydada...." :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Dave B]

Alonso is talking a load of balls on TV now.
All concerned deserve Oscars for today's performances :dozey:

[vfj]

Complete And Utter S H I T E-----roll On Btcc Proper Racing

[Easy Drifter]

Whatever else happens Smedley will be gone from Ferarri at the end of the year if not before.
If Massa goes I do not think Alonso will want (allow) Webber as a teamate or Kubica either. He will want (demand) someone who will obey orders and stay slower than him.

[ojciec dyrektor]

:down: :down: :down: Ferrari, Alonso and dare I say Santander!
:down: :up: Smedley and Massa for making the team orders so obvious but still bending over.

I'll never support these Italian cheap-shots again.
As a big Michael "Master of Team Orders" Schumacher fan, You don't sound convincing. ;p

[Dave B]

This is, for much of the Schumacher era team orders weren't outlawed. Sure they were unpleasant, but until the aftermath of Austria 2002 they were permitted. Alonso whines about "munipulated races" but is quite happy to benefit from Ferrari's munipulation of this one - and that makes him a hypocrite.

[donKey jote]

As a big Michael "Master of Team Orders" Schumacher fan, You don't sound convincing. ;p

maybe ioan has finally seen the light :laugh:

[Koz]

Mark, anything interesting that Alonso is saying?


Whatever else happens Smedley will be gone from Ferarri at the end of the year if not before.
If Massa goes I do not think Alonso will want (allow) Webber as a teamate or Kubica either. He will want (demand) someone who will obey orders and stay slower than him.

That leave Fisichella or possibly Sutil (FI still owes ferrari, right)?

[Wasted Talent]

I feel sorry for Massa too. I want a Ferrari 1-2. But more than that I want Ferrari world championship. Alonso can do that this year, Massa can't.

All this righteous indignation is misplaced, in my opinion.

I feel sorry for your Ferrari blindness.

WT

[ioan]

Smedley is arguably the man in the most difficult position, he gave the "coded" messages to Massa and in his conversations with him he seemed genuinely upset. Could it have been Domenicali (or even di Montezemolo) giving orders to Smedley to pass on to Massa, taking advantage of this special relationship they have.

It's always the race engineer who have to do this.
And the race engineers are the people who have the closest relationship with the drivers.
Imagine you have to tell your best friend to do something you, and he, don't agree with just because the management favors someone else.

[Dave B]

$100,000 fine

[ioan]

As a big Michael "Master of Team Orders" Schumacher fan, You don't sound convincing. ;p

I couldn't care less about what you think. :D

[ioan]

$100,000 fine

What? You sure you didn't forget the additional 000 for bringing the sport into disrepute?
This is a joke. They've got a million fine back in 2002.

[Dave B]

No. Money buys wins. That's the moral of today's story, children. You can cheat so long as you're rich.

A report is being sent to the World Motorsport Council, but result unchanged... for now.

[ioan]

Whatever else happens Smedley will be gone from Ferarri at the end of the year if not before.
If Massa goes I do not think Alonso will want (allow) Webber as a teamate or Kubica either. He will want (demand) someone who will obey orders and stay slower than him.

I hope both Massa and Smedley leave soon, maybe they can attempt to win in Hungary and then give them the finger.

Any team on the grid would sign them without thinking, just imagine the wealth of knowledge Smedley would bring with him.

[Wasted Talent]

It's always the race engineer who have to do this.
And the race engineers are the people who have the closest relationship with the drivers.
Imagine you have to tell your best friend to do something you, and he, don't agree with just because the management favors someone else.#

Agreed (again!!). On BBC digital Eddie Jordan has said quite clearly that when he gave team orders at Spa to stop Ralf overtaking Damon he was the one who told Ralf - not expecting the engineer to do the dirty work

Do Ferrari management really think they don't just look like the bunch of cheap liars that they are?

Only Massa and Smedley come out with any credit - exposing the truth and then bowing to the inevitable team-speak

WT

[Mark]

Fines mean nothing at all. Disqualification was the only punishment which would mean anything.

[ioan]

No. Money buys wins. That's the moral of today's story, children. You can cheat so long as you're rich.

A report is being sent to the World Motorsport Council, but result unchanged... for now.

Where is Max when you need him?

[Dave B]

For perspective, the fine was one-tenth of the £1 million they were fined in 2002 when team orders per se weren't illegal, but they breached podium etiquette.

[Robinho]

about as effective as wheeling in Julian Clary to say "ooh, you naughty boys, don't do it again or i'll spank you"

[Wasted Talent]

$100,000 fine

I hope that is your comment rather than the outcome!

If it really is a $100k fine the stewards have failed in their responsibility to uphold the rules.

Come on McLaren, Red Bull , .......anyone apart from Alonso now

WT

[ioan]

Only Massa and Smedley come out with any credit - exposing the truth and then bowing to the inevitable team-speak

WT

They shouldn't have given in.
Sooner or later, I suspect sooner, they will both be pushed out anyway.
Once you bend over you lose your integrity both in your and your boss' eyes and he will not want you around anymore once this happens, for plenty of reasons.

[Koz]

100,000?
So that's the equivalent of a roll of toilet paper for us?
The minimum should have been total disqualification from the race for both driver and team and probation till the end of the season.

What a joke.

#

Agreed (again!!). On BBC digital Eddie Jordan has said quite clearly that when he gave team orders at Spa to stop Ralf overtaking Damon he was the one who told Ralf - not expecting the engineer to do the dirty work

Do Ferrari management really think they don't just look like the bunch of cheap liars that they are?

Only Massa and Smedley come out with any credit - exposing the truth and then bowing to the inevitable team-speak

WT

DC said the same during the race too, Denis made the calls not his engineer.

[ioan]

DC said the same during the race too, Denis made the calls not his engineer.

This means that Domenicali is not only a crappy team manager but also the biggest coward on the pit wall.

[markabilly]

This is, for much of the Schumacher era team orders weren't outlawed. Sure they were unpleasant, but until the aftermath of Austria 2002 they were permitted. Alonso whines about "munipulated races" but is quite happy to benefit from Ferrari's munipulation of this one - and that makes him a hypocrite.
for sure, but I suspicion the real problem was or is how stupid ferrari was about this.....Smedley must have caught hell from Stevo and Luca

.

So Freddie is smiling and leaving the meeting with high fives and massa is looking as glum as ever, as though he just did hari-kari for good of the team......so now they have to say massa is a liar when he was in the meeting with the stewards to punish anyone or they can just accept it and move on. My guess is the latter :rolleyes:


as to the team orders, forget not when Jensen was told to save fuel so as to stop the tusssle between him and Lewis....and I am sure there have been other such moments with other teams, but they are just not have been as stupid as ferrari.

Put the big body slam on them and this might stop even the more subtle games....outside of Singapore, I can not think of one time there has been a penalty :confused:

[ojciec dyrektor]

If You want to penalize everybody You should remember that Felipe Massa is adult man, who made decision to gave away his place to Alonso. Team wasn't asking for it, Alonso wasn't asking for it. They only told him that he is slower. Massa made a decision. He's not a child, slave or a dog. He has his own intellect, reason, understanding ability and free will.

He did it, because he wanted to. End of story. ;p

[Somebody]

Well, the stewards don't have the power to throw Ferrari out of the championship. That's reserved to the WMSC themselves.

They *could*, however, have given a retroactive drive-through/stop-go (+20/+30s), grid penalties in Hungary, DQed them or banned them for X races.

Instead, they've basically passed the buck up the line.

[donKey jote]

100,000?
So that's the equivalent of a roll of toilet paper for us?
The minimum should have been total disqualification from the race for both driver and team and probation till the end of the season.

What a joke.
penalise Ferrari if you must, but why Alonso, apart from you dislike the guy?
a joke indeed... dock it off Smedley's wages :p

[markabilly]

WTF!!!! a 100,000 fine???

Huh, never would have thought that...guess they were willing to do a Monaco Qing and look behind what the driver said....

But a 100K???
So what?

It is like that 10k fine on Lewis for running out of gas at the end of Qfing

Ferrari spends a 100k for hospitality at each race...guess that means the lunchs crowds will be a little smaller for a couple of races

[Robinho]

at least they have decided that Ferrari were wrong, they did break the rules and they have not drawn a line under it. I, however, Expect the WMSC to do pretty much bugger all about it now, but i hope they take the hardline. Take their constructors points at the very least.

But above all, they have been found guilty of breaching the team orders rule and of bringing the sport into disrepute. and rightly so, hopefully more will follow, when do the WMSC next meet?

[ioan]

If You want to penalize everybody You should remember that Felipe Massa is adult man, who made decision to gave away his place to Alonso. Team wasn't asking for it, Alonso wasn't asking for it. They only told him that he is slower. Massa made a decision. He's not a child, slave or a dog. He has his own intellect, reason, understanding ability and free will.

He did it, because he wanted to. End of story. ;p

I wonder what your stance would be if as many of you wish Alonso's team mate was Kubica?!

BTW, this was a rhetorical question.

[Sonic]

my 2 cents? The anger (certainly on my part) is the bare faced lies we have to put up with. Fernando (the worst culprit - anyone still in any doubt that he knew all about crashgate is blind), Smedle & Domenicalli. The only one trying to have a little dignity is Massa himself.

[Dave B]

penalise Ferrari if you must, but why Alonso, apart from you dislike the guy?
Well say he goes on to win the championship by a couple of points - points which he was gifted by an illegal action. How would that be fair?

He's already been allowed to keep one fake "win" in his career, to win two races as a result of team cheating would be a disgrace.

[donKey jote]

"as many of you"?
I thought there was only one ojciec director :eek: :crazy:

[ioan]

... when do the WMSC next meet?

Whenever it is summoned.

The question is why do we need stewards if they can not take any decision related to a race incident.

[Robinho]

its funny how the bad smell seems to be following Fernando around wherever he goes, he seems to be the catalyst in all of the controversies

[ioan]

The only one trying to have a little dignity is Massa himself.

Poor guy, he sure must feel very down right now.

[ioan]

its funny how the bad smell seems to be following Fernando around wherever he goes, he seems to be the catalyst in all of the controversies

How true.

[markabilly]

But that was proven after the race when they published the exact fuel quantities from both cars. It was mathematically impossible for both cars to continue fighting for the lead in that instance. It was a good tussle while it lasted and was decided by whether the team wanted both cars to make it across the line or coast to a stop on the last lap. . :)
sure, and I won the lottery last week......but that is the difference, it is very hard to prove it, unlike here, where it was so slap your face

[Somebody]

People, again, the US$100k *is not the end of the matter*. The stewards not only found them guilty, they passed the buck up to the WMSC, who can impose further penalties (up to and including the penalty given to McLaren over "spygate", since Ferrari were found guilty of the same "bringing the sport into disreptute" offense).

The German GP result stands, unfortunately - but since they've been found guilty and sent upstairs pending further punishment, they've got more pain to come.

[Dave B]

its funny how the bad smell seems to be following Fernando around wherever he goes, he seems to be the catalyst in all of the controversies
It's also telling how he's fast picking up a reputation of not being able to handle having a team mate who challenges him.

[donKey jote]

Well say he goes on to win the championship by a couple of points - points which he was gifted by an illegal action. How would that be fair?

He's already been allowed to keep one fake "win" in his career, to win two races as a result of team cheating would be a disgrace.
So what should he have done, missed a few gears and stayed behind Massa to get in trouble with Vettel?
Team cheating, disgrace, scum...
I get the feeling some of you are getting a bit carried away simply because it's Alonso :)

[Somebody]

If Massa was so much slower, and Alonso was in danger from Seb while stuck behind Massa, then why didn't SV get Massa before the end of the race?

The whole excuse was balderdash.

[PSfan]

#

Agreed (again!!). On BBC digital Eddie Jordan has said quite clearly that when he gave team orders at Spa to stop Ralf overtaking Damon he was the one who told Ralf - not expecting the engineer to do the dirty work


Great comment

Strangely if the Team Orders present today was Ferrari telling Alonso to hold position and not try to pass the slower Massa, nobody would be up at arms!!!

The way I see it, Vettel managed to finish less then 2 seconds behind, which means it would be dumb to have Alonso stay behind Massa, and would be better if the 2 Ferraris to refrain from have a serious on track battle for position with Vettel in a position to take advantage.

I haven't read ferrari's whole race transcript to know whether Massa was given the opportunity to pick up the pace prior to being told Alonso was faster.

I also like how everyone is getting on Alonso for his "ridiculous" comment when he was just as liking commenting on the traffic as he was about massa holding him up... After todays race his "How is Massa? " question gained him some respect in my books...

I'll just assume this board is just right full of McLeran fan's who where hoping for a repeat of Turkey, but in Ferrari colors.

[AndySpeed]

Absolute disgrace - I turned the TV off immediately when I saw what was happening. Luckily I also tuned back in for the press conference which was great fun.

I probably won't make the effort to watch next weekend's race anymore, it wouldn't have been easy to anyway as I'm out but I probably would have found a pub or something. I simply won't bother anymore.

[Dave B]

After todays race his "How is Massa? " question gained him some respect in my books.
More like "how is he after we shafted him?". Any respect I had for Alonso went out the window today.

[markabilly]

So what should he have done, missed a few gears and stayed behind Massa to get in trouble with Vettel?
Team cheating, disgrace, scum...
I get the feeling some of you are getting a bit carried away simply because it's Alonso :)
He was not in trouble with vettel, but if he had been under severe attack, then that might have been enough justification for a team ordered pass....

Anyway, all the fuss about freddie is not all that warranted....he had the shot, so he took it.

No blame there per se......

The responsibility is on the team, and the penalty should be on them but Fred should give up the 7 points gained by the pass, after all, that is one of the purposes of penalties....to put things back as though no transgression had occurred as like what should have happenned with Lewis when he passed the SC...otherwise he is a direct beneficary of clear cheating, at a minnimum.

[Mia 01]

This was one very sad day for F1.

Ferrari have drag F1 in disrepute with one of the most blatant team orders I witnesses or heard of. Even in MS time with Ferrari there wasn´t such blatant ones. But ofcourse, I´m not suprised, they are desperate now.

This will cost the team and the drivers dearly!

[pallone col bracciale]

I feel sorry for Massa too. I want a Ferrari 1-2. But more than that I want Ferrari world championship. Alonso can do that this year, Massa can't.

All this righteous indignation is misplaced, in my opinion.

With this, I 100% agree.

[PSfan]

Well say he goes on to win the championship by a couple of points - points which he was gifted by an illegal action. How would that be fair?


FIA didn't follow that logic in 2007...

[CaptainRaiden]

So what should he have done, missed a few gears and stayed behind Massa to get in trouble with Vettel?
Team cheating, disgrace, scum...
I get the feeling some of you are getting a bit carried away simply because it's Alonso :)

And you're not making up bull$hit theories because you're an Alonso fan? Come on man, at least be fair and call it as it is. Ferrari robbed Massa and gave the victory to Alonso, who took it with open arms, showing his teeth on the podium and then denying knowledge of team orders in the press conference. Are you really this gullible???

IMO, Alonso seems to be turning into the next MSC, and maybe we are gonna enter another era of Ferrari domination. Average talent in a superior car, having no problems with cheating and a lapdog playing rear-gunner. Perfect formula for Ferrari! Stupefacente! Mamma Mia!

[Somebody]

Joe Saward's saying that US$100k is the maximum monetary fine the stewards can impose: http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2010/07/25/ferrari-guilty/

[donKey jote]

He was not in trouble with vettel, but if he had been under severe attack, then that might have been enough justification for a team ordered pass....

Anyway, all the fuss about freddie is not all that warranted....he had the shot, so he took it.

No blame there per se......

The responsibility is on the team, and the penalty should be on them but Fred should give up the 7 points gained by the pass, after all, that is one of the purposes of penalties....to put things back as though no transgression had occurred as like what should have happenned with Lewis when he passed the SC...otherwise he is a direct beneficary of clear cheating, at a minnimum.

fairy muff :)

[PSfan]

No different to what McLaren pulled in Turkey.

McLeran phrased it better, but yah, same ****... hidden team orders...

[donKey jote]

And you're not making up bull$hit theories because you're an Alonso fan?
I made up theories? Where? :confused:

[Rodster]

I also like how everyone is getting on Alonso for his "ridiculous" comment when he was just as liking commenting on the traffic as he was about massa holding him up... After todays race his "How is Massa? " question gained him some respect in my books...

I'll just assume this board is just right full of McLeran fan's who where hoping for a repeat of Turkey, but in Ferrari colors.

And I also find it equally ridiculous no one has brought up Alonso's 2007 Monaco GP post race interview with Lewis sitting by his side when he said "I told him to get out of my way" when Lewis moved over for Fred and gifted him the win because Alonso wasn't good enough to be his rookie teammate at Monaco. The guy did it once and he's capable of doing it again like today.

And up until this episode I was a Ferrari fan, no more. I hope they never win another race this year and lose both Championships.

[Daika]

Joe Saward's saying that US$100k is the maximum monetary fine the stewards can impose: http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2010/07/25/ferrari-guilty/

I thought Ferrari were fined 1 million for the 2002 Austria grand prix.? if i remember correctly.

[SGWilko]

Yet again Alonso is involved in 5h!t. No surprise there, the guy is a bad apple.

[ioan]

Great comment

Strangely if the Team Orders present today was Ferrari telling Alonso to hold position and not try to pass the slower Massa, nobody would be up at arms!!!

The way I see it, Vettel managed to finish less then 2 seconds behind, which means it would be dumb to have Alonso stay behind Massa, and would be better if the 2 Ferraris to refrain from have a serious on track battle for position with Vettel in a position to take advantage.

I haven't read ferrari's whole race transcript to know whether Massa was given the opportunity to pick up the pace prior to being told Alonso was faster.

I also like how everyone is getting on Alonso for his "ridiculous" comment when he was just as liking commenting on the traffic as he was about massa holding him up... After todays race his "How is Massa? " question gained him some respect in my books...

I'll just assume this board is just right full of McLeran fan's who where hoping for a repeat of Turkey, but in Ferrari colors.

Everything is hypothetical.

The only question should be:
Would Alonso have overtaken Massa without team orders?

After all we are talking about racing here not time trials.

Why would Massa drive faster after the team orders if he didn't need to do it anymore? He did just what was needed preserve that crappy 2nd place. I for one would have driven directly in the pits and broken Stefano's gob live on TV.

[ioan]

I thought Ferrari were fined 1 million for the 2002 Austria grand prix.? if i remember correctly.

It was allegedly because MS pushed Rubens to the top step of the podium.
Alonso didn't feel that bad about what happened so they get a smaller fine only. ;)

[ojciec dyrektor]

I wonder what your stance would be if as many of you wish Alonso's team mate was Kubica?!

BTW, this was a rhetorical question.
The same?!? Yes, it's rhetorical question, because my answer is simply logical and not emotional.

It's funny how much of You guys wants to throw Ferrari out of Championships, erase their points, etc. And why can't we throw out McLaren and Red Bull? There is always an evidence for a crime. It would be very exciting to watch HRT fighting with VR because there will be no one left.

F1 is money and money are from winning, not for fairness an nobleness.

[Dave B]

It was allegedly because MS pushed Rubens to the top step of the podium.
Alonso didn't feel that bad about what happened so they get a smaller fine only. ;)
Indeed. Breaching podium etiquette is 10x worse than race fixing.

Let's hope the WMSC show some balls and strip Ferrari of their constructors points for the weekend, and Alonso of his win.

[Somebody]

Ferrari were fined *by the WMSC* in 2002. They've been set on that path again this time, but it'll apparently be Sep 10th before the Council meets.

[ioan]

More like "how is he after we shafted him?". Any respect I had for Alonso went out the window today.

You mean you still had respect for him after Singapore 2008?! Please say I misunderstood you.

[ioan]

The same?!? Yes, it's rhetorical question, because my answer is simply logical and not emotional.

It's funny how much of You guys wants to throw Ferrari out of Championships, erase their points, etc. And why can't we throw out McLaren and Red Bull? There is always an evidence for a crime. It would be very exciting to watch HRT fighting with VR because there will be no one left.

F1 is money and money are from winning, not for fairness an nobleness.

You are not supposed to answer a rhetorical question, because the answer is already given by the one who asks the question.
It's that simple.

[CaptainRaiden]

So what should he have done, missed a few gears and stayed behind Massa to get in trouble with Vettel?
Team cheating, disgrace, scum...
I get the feeling some of you are getting a bit carried away simply because it's Alonso :)


I made up theories? Where? :confused:

So, the "possibility" that Vettel would have caught up to Alonso is a fact? :-/

Also, I wonder how Alonso was being held up by Massa when the gap was around a second or 8 tenths for a good 4 laps before the "clean overtake" by Alonso. :rolleyes:

[CaptainRaiden]

I for one would have driven directly in the pits and broken Stefano's gob live on TV.

I, in Massa's shoes, would have blocked unibrow until kingdom come, and taken the win gleefully. Then show Ferrari the finger and signed for another team.

But alas, people give Ferrari way too much respect than they deserve, and so end up making compromises. Hopefully karma bites them in their a$$. I for one am glad in a way that I've found the perfect villains to hate in F1 from now on.

[ojciec dyrektor]

You are not supposed to answer a rhetorical question, because the answer is already given by the one who asks the question.
It's that simple.
Thank You Ioan. It's my mistake. I have known I shouldn't argue with You.

[ioan]

Thank You Ioan. It's my mistake. I have known I shouldn't argue with You.

There is nothing to argue about, as a Kubica fan you would have been outraged if this happened, claiming the opposite is either false or you are not a real fan of your favorite driver.

[donKey jote]

So, the "possibility" that Vettel would have caught up to Alonso is a fact? :-/

Also, I wonder how Alonso was being held up by Massa when the gap was around a second or 8 tenths for a good 4 laps before the "clean overtake" by Alonso. :rolleyes:
sheesh, so I should have said possibly :rolleyes:
Alonso was "possibly" being held up by Massa when Massa was "possibly" having problems wih his tyres, which was "possibly" the reason Massa was all over the place (locking wheels, jittery on exit,..) for a while.
Alonso was "possibly" faster when he got the gap back down from 3 to <1 second in a few laps, but then again, "possibly" Massa was just playing games and controlling his pace.
Vettel was within 1-2 secs of Alonso until Alonso was gifted the pass on Massa, so it would be fair to say -without hindsight ;) -, that he was "possibly" in danger of being put in trouble.

Happy now? :)

thought not :dozey:

[ojciec dyrektor]

So true. Unfortunately Alonso's credibility and reputation suffer as a result and its taken 3 years for the guy to even be considered a worthy talent. He's a double WDC but he's cried foul whenever he's been beaten by a teammate (i.e Fisichella, Hamilton), blackmailed his employer, taken part in the worst race fixing scandal in the history of the sport, and now lied that his move today was a drivers decision and not a team order. Not a glowing CV for someone who 9 of the current grid voted as the greatest driver ever when asked on Thursday. :mark:

Look at the recent champions. Prost, Senna, Schumacher, Raikkonen, Alonso, Hamilton. They all had dirty moves in their careers. All had races with team orders. So, why is Alonso or Ferrari worse then them?

[ojciec dyrektor]

There is nothing to argue about, as a Kubica fan you would have been outraged if this happened, claiming the opposite is either false or you are not a real fan of your favorite driver.

Sorry Ioan, but I'm not You. So simply grow up and stop judge me.

[Mia 01]

I´m not so sure Rob Smedley will work for ferrari much longer.

[SGWilko]

I´m not so sure Rob Smedley will work for ferrari much longer.

Massa & Smedley at Renault in 2011?

[CaptainRaiden]

sheesh, so I should have said possibly
Alonso was "possibly" being held up by Massa when Massa was "possibly" having problems wih his tyres, which was "possibly" the reason Massa was all over the place (locking wheels, jittery on exit,..) for a while.

:laugh: That wasn't even in the same part of the race. Those were during Alonso's first attempts at overtaking, after which he cried like a b*tch. Then, Massa opened up a 3 second lead, hopefully you saw that.


Alonso was "possibly" faster when he got the gap back down from 3 to <1 second in a few laps, but then again, "possibly" Massa was just playing games and controlling his pace.
Vettel was within 1-2 secs of Alonso until Alonso was gifted the pass on Massa, so it would be fair to say -without hindsight, that he was "possibly" in danger of being put in trouble.

Hmm, I wonder why this impending "danger" of Vettel never really bothered Massa after he was "overtaken" by Alonso. :confused: I mean since Massa was slower than Alonso and holding him up, Vettel should have made quick work of Massa, don't you think? But he didn't even come close. :(

So, is it that you're buying the crap Ferrari is selling, or is it the Alonso poster on your wall, OR is this a case of beer goggles? :)

[Dave B]

You mean you still had respect for him after Singapore 2008?! Please say I misunderstood you.
Whatever controversaties have followed Alonso round like a bad smell, I've always had the utmost respect for his driving. Now I'm afraid the evidence is overwhelming that he cannot handle having a fast team mate, and that he'll cry like a baby unless he gets his own way. If he was truly quicker today he should have overtaken Massa fair and square.

[SGWilko]

Whatever controversaties have followed Alonso round like a bad smell, I've always had the utmost respect for his driving. Now I'm afraid the evidence is overwhelming that he cannot handle having a fast team mate, and that he'll cry like a baby unless he gets his own way. If he was truly quicker today he should have overtaken Massa fair and square.

Asbolutely. :up:

[DazzlaF1]

A $100'000 fine

Considering their huge budget, that is one very lenient punishment. Might keep them out of cappuccino's for a day

[donKey jote]

That wasn't even in the same part of the race. Those were during Alonso's first attempts at overtaking, after which he cried like a b*tch. Then, Massa opened up a 3 second lead, hopefully you saw that.
That's one occasion where I saw Alonso being held up. Then, briefly, the gap went to 3.4 seconds.


Hmm, I wonder why this impending "danger" of Vettel never really bothered Massa after he was "overtaken" by Alonso. :confused: I mean since Massa was slower than Alonso and holding him up, Vettel should have made quick work of Massa, don't you think? But he didn't even come close. :(
Hindsight is a fine thing.


So, is it that you're buying the crap Ferrari is selling, or is it the Alonso poster on your wall, OR is this a case of beer goggles? :)
No, I'm not buying the whinging crap here about big bad Alonso or big bad Ferrari either though.
I don't have any Alonso posters.
Haven't worn beer goggles since I was last with markabilly's missus
:dozey:

[ioan]

Sorry Ioan, but I'm not You. So simply grow up and stop judge me.

No you are not me as I support Massa and you support Kubica.
And I am not taking ceahpshots at you, so yeah we are very different.

[donKey jote]

If he was truly that much quicker today he should have overtaken Massa fair and square.
yep :up:
Or, "possibly" done a Vettel on him :laugh:

[Dave B]

Ferrari say they won't appeal the fine "in the interests of the sport". How very noble of them.

[Mia 01]

Rob made the whole mess obvious for the all people to understand, he did it deliberatley, he like Felipe was forced.

Then its likely that this words will cost ferrari a couple of hundred millions, yes I belive so. They will loose any chance of WDC or WCC now and the WMSC will come down very very hard on them.

[CaptainRaiden]

No, I'm not buying the whinging crap here about big bad Alonso or big bad Ferrari either though.

Maybe not big bad Alonso, but at least big bad Ferrari? Both Massa and Alonso had a mathematical chance at winning the championship with 8 races to go. This wasn't needed today.


Haven't worn beer goggles since I was last with markabilly's missus
:dozey:

:laugh:

[ojciec dyrektor]

Well with exception to Hamilton and Raikkonen they all benefitted from team orders when team orders were legal and did not break the regulations. The rules were changed to stop this very action and it was ignored today. Hamilton has not had team orders so blantantly executed on track and at the half way stage in the season where everything is to play for. You're right that they all have dirty moves whether that be on track or off on their records, but you must agree Alonso's list of controversy is making a firm leap for the lead.. ;)

Blantantly or not it makes no difference. If You have rules You have to everybody treat equally. If McLaren wasn't punished then there's no ground to punish Ferrari.

And, as I said, Ferrari didn't ask Massa to give away his position to Alonso. I know that is unfair, but it's the result of stupid rules.

[markabilly]

That's one occasion where I saw Alonso being held up. Then, briefly, the gap went to 3.4 seconds.


Hindsight is a fine thing.

I don't have any Alonso posters.
Haven't worn beer goggles since I was last with markabilly's missus
:dozey:
Come on, fess up, we all know you be a closet Freddie fanboy, that is clear from your posts of freddie and ferrari did no wrong

as to hindsight, depends on whose hind as to if it be a fine thing....
for example with your missus, one can never tell if it is foresight or hindsight you be looking at, assuming you got 25 cents and the time to wait in the long line :dozey:

BTW, is there some exception of where the car in front is clearly holding up the other...although that would not appear to be the case here.

Anyway, imagine the absolute cross-eyed fit that ole webber would have thrown if told to move over.....worse than silverstone and far worse than donkey jote's fit, when he found out he left his balls with my missus...not her fault, she thought they were fleas and squashed them before he came crawling back for them

[ioan]

Come on, fess up, we all know you be a closet Freddie fanboy, that is clear from your posts of freddie and ferrari did no wrong

as to hindsight, depends on whose hind as to if it be a fine thing....
for example with your missus, one can never tell if it is foresight or hindsight you be looking at, assuming you got 25 cents and the time to wait in the long line :dozey:

:rotflmao:

[truefan72]

People, again, the US$100k *is not the end of the matter*. The stewards not only found them guilty, they passed the buck up to the WMSC, who can impose further penalties (up to and including the penalty given to McLaren over "spygate", since Ferrari were found guilty of the same "bringing the sport into disreptute" offense).

The German GP result stands, unfortunately - but since they've been found guilty and sent upstairs pending further punishment, they've got more pain to come.

but that is the worst part, the result should not stand, If they fined them $100k then they should have equally stripped therm from the results. This would have been the only proper outcome and a good precedent for any future shenanigans that might happen between vettel/webber and Hamilton/Button.

Instead you now have these teams willing to do team orders and then pay the poultry $100k afterwards.

I feel bad for smedley and massa,
As to alonso what a complete zero of a human being, can,t beat your teammate on track, then cry over the radio to tell them to let you by, Can't beat your teammate on the track, then blackmail your team to favor you, offer bribes to the mechanics to make your car better. This guy is at the center of the 3 biggest scandals in F1 of recent, useless

As to Ferrari, they have brought the sport to disrepute. Should have been banned for the next race. simple clean and effective punishment.
Didn't the FIa at first ban renault for valencia last year before "overturning" the verdict?
They should have been banned and then dare the FIA heads to overturn the decision.

[donKey jote]

Maybe not big bad Alonso, but at least big bad Ferrari? Both Massa and Alonso had a mathematical chance at winning the championship with 8 races to go. This wasn't needed today.
Big bad Ferrari and this wasn't needed... there, common ground :)

[acorn]

as this appears to be a "team" sport and everybody is doing what they're doing for the "team", i suggest they do away with the drivers championship and only have a constructors/team championship that way team orders will be legal.
all you have to worry about then is teams who have shared interests.

[ioan]

As to Ferrari, they have brought the sport to disrepute. Should have been banned for the next race. simple clean and effective punishment.
Didn't the FIa at first ban renault for valencia last year before "overturning" the verdict?
They should have been banned and then dare the FIA heads to overturn the decision.

Agreed, especially as they wouldn't have had time to ask for a hearing before next week end's race! :D

[truefan72]

Joe Saward's saying that US$100k is the maximum monetary fine the stewards can impose: http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2010/07/25/ferrari-guilty/

how about stripping the results and imposing a one race ban if they are looking to impose a maximum fine? Instead they asked Ferrari to give them the loose change in Alonso's pocket

[ioan]

as this appears to be a "team" sport and everybody is doing what they're doing for the "team", i suggest they do away with the drivers championship and only have a constructors/team championship that way team orders will be legal.
all you have to worry about then is teams who have shared interests.

Not a bad idea.

[christophulus]

Hmm, they've slapped the maximum fine on, which suggests the stewards saw enough to know they weren't happy about it. I'm looking forward to the WMSC meeting, though it could do with being a bit earlier..

[donKey jote]

far worse than donkey jote's fit, when he found out he left his balls with my missus...not her fault, she thought they were fleas and squashed them before he came crawling back for them
your sister got my balls? Is that what she told you?
Never mind I won't be back too soon... ran out of paper bags :dozey:

[ioan]

how about stripping the results and imposing a one race ban if they are looking to impose a maximum fine? Instead they asked Ferrari to give them the loose change in Alonso's pocket

It is obvious that the stewards didn't dare go for anything but a useless monetary punishment. They simply deferred the responsibility to the WMSC.