German Grand Prix

[Big Ben]

If you would have watched f1 as you claim you would know that the rules have been changed in 2002 and this is not allowed anymore.
Everyone does it disguised in one way or another but only Ferrari managed today to make it look like a huge slap in the face of everyone else. And for this they deserve to get a serious penalty.

:laugh: Penalties because it wasn't disguised enough. lame. ignorance is bliss, isn't it? :laugh:

[Big Ben]

Putting abit of thought into it and doing it in a subtle manner certainly would have saved them the embarrassment in the long run. I think a few of us are forgetting that team orders do happen, and in the nature of the sport always will. But when they are clearly outlawed in the regs, its a little silly to do it in such an obvious way IMO. The FIA must have had a problem with it as Ferrari were punished, and Ferrari have decided not to appeal. They obviously calculated the possible penalty and took the risk. :)

now how lame would have they looked if they too would have pulled the save fuel/step on it trick? You would have been less loud, wouldn't you?

[SGWilko]

Massa should have replied to Smedley thus;

"OK, I understand. He is faster, but he cannot overtake me? If he can get close enough and tries a move - I will not take him out. Can you ask Stefano to remind him he brings 6/10ths to a team, now might be a good time for him to use it"

[Tazio]

Everything Ferrari implemented this season is ideas they copied from the other teams, and come Spa the others will also come with new ideas that Ferrari will need time to copy, again.


:s ailor: "If you can get your endplates down by the ground they can get more efficiency. And if they[Ferrari] are doing that in a clever and legitimate way then we need to do it in that clever and legitimate way." :talk:
:rolleyes: :beer: :s mokin:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85576

[ioan]

And it is the responsibility of every team to find loopholes or ways around rules - marvellously accomplished usually.

A slap in the face for nobody. They have no duty to sacrifice themselves to anyone - and any expectation of that is wrong.

Sorry to disappoint you but Ferrari didn't find any loophole yesterday, that's why they were penalized by the stewards and the matter was further deffered to the WMSC.

[ioan]

[/b]
:rolleyes: :beer: :s mokin:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85576

I'll ask markabilly to send you an extra dose of the koolaid, it looks like you really like it.

[Tazio]

I'll ask markabilly to send you an extra dose of the koolaid, it looks like you really like it.
:monkeedan :s ailor: The pictures I was shown, neither myself nor our engineers can explain," said Whitmarsh. "But that may be because we are not clever enough :bigcry: :beer: :s mokin:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85576

[gloomyDAY]

Tazio! I guess ioan doesn't have a response to that one. :)

[Tazio]

Tazio! I guess ioan doesn't have a response to that one. :) :s ailor:

[ioan]

Tazio! I guess ioan doesn't have a response to that one. :)

What? Ferrari were faster to copy RBR then McLaren, for once? What an accomplishment from the subdued team. You should bow in front of them. :p

Do you really think that McLaren does not know how to make a composite part that will only flex in a certain area under a certain load?!
All they wanted to know is if it's legal. This is how they operate, they make sure it is OK to run it and only then they bring in theirs.

[Firstgear]

I can't wait to see how Ferrari butcher this race! :p

Was it worth the wait? :p

[Tazio]

Was it worth the wait? :p

Finishisng 1,2 is not what I call butchering the race in the sense I was referring to ;)
But I get your drift! :p :

What is really lost in the melee about team orders is teams (that can afford it) have to be investing tons of money into getting one tenth in quali because this year’s regs are very prohibitive for passing. Plus I think Ferrari have a real problem when it come to the use of Q-mapping. It's hard on engines, something Ferrari perilously short on. Hungary should be a real snooze-fest unless weather plays a part.
I think it would open things up a little if they let the teams start on either compound. At least it would bring a little strategy back into the races!
Although not much!

[woody2goody]

Massa should have replied to Smedley thus;

"OK, I understand. He is faster, but he cannot overtake me? If he can get close enough and tries a move - I will not take him out. Can you ask Stefano to remind him he brings 6/10ths to a team, now might be a good time for him to use it"

THIS ^^^^^

Fernando had his chance to pass Massa when he was faster, and he couldn't manage it.

Apart from the one poor attempt at Turn 7, Alonso never troubled Massa enough for Felipe to even have to defend his position. Bottom line is that it should be up to Alonso to get through, not for him to whine to the team about it so they do his dirty work for him.

Yes, it was probably the right result for the title battle, but it wasn't morally right or even legal.

I hope they throw the book at Ferrari for publically stabbing Massa in the back. So much for 7 years of loyal service...

[Tazio]

What? Ferrari were faster to copy RBR then McLaren, for once?

No!
Actually three times:
Blown diffuser,
Q-mapping,
and the wing!
This was possible because of the platform the F10 was built on.
Rather clever on Ferrari's part.
Red Bull wasn't the first team to make use of the DD diffuser.
Everyone copies innovation in F1.
Let's all bow to Renault for bringing pnuematic valves to F1 :s ailor:

[ioan]

Everyone copies innovation in F1.
Let's all bow to Renault for bringing pnuematic valves to F1 :s ailor:

Finally some truth.
The Ferrari of old did bring a lot of innovation to F1, but nowadays they lack the needed genius and hey only copy the others.

[Saint Devote]

Finally some truth.
The Ferrari of old did bring a lot of innovation to F1, but nowadays they lack the needed genius and hey only copy the others.

Yes, but it was mainly centered around engines - until John Barnard their aerodynamic department was the red-headed step child and little interest existed.

These days even Adrian Newey expressed doubt that he will remain in f1 because aside from the new order regulations that applied from 2009, their IS NO innovation allowed in f1 - everything is so restricted and is banned so quickly, ironically in the name of "fairness" - the sort of fairness that exists anyhere the miserable colectivists stick their corrosive fingers.

Bernie calls F1 regulations "socialist" - he is sadly correct. Innovation, true innovation, is like the rest of Western society, dying or dead from suicide.

Formula 1 is a sport of capitalism - but like its philosophical foundation, is philsophically virtually dead from the strangulation of regulation bureacrats and their mawkish enablers and supporters.

[Tazio]

Yes, but it was mainly centered around engines - until John Barnard their aerodynamic department was the red-headed step child and little interest existed.

These days even Adrian Newey expressed doubt that he will remain in f1 because aside from the new order regulations that applied from 2009, their IS NO innovation allowed in f1 - everything is so restricted and is banned so quickly, ironically in the name of "fairness" - the sort of fairness that exists anyhere the miserable colectivists stick their corrosive fingers.

Bernie calls F1 regulations "socialist" - he is sadly correct. Innovation, true innovation, is like the rest of Western society, dying or dead from suicide.

Formula 1 is a sport of capitalism - but like its philosophical foundation, is philsophically virtually dead from the strangulation of regulation bureacrats and their mawkish enablers and supporters. :s ailor: This is the way it was, and IMO should still be!
Teams are fighting over 1/100 of a second for pole position, and now we come to the second tightest circuit on the calendar, and one where passing is very difficult. Quali once again will be the key.
The results of the German GP have been done to death. Nothing more will come of it until Sept 10th.
Maybe it's time to change the subject to Hungary. :rolleyes:

[AndyL]

I too was amazed at the times he was recording near the end of his stint as I watched timing.
Very impressive
:up: :s ailor: ;)

I didn't have the benefit of live timing for this race... how were Button's times compared to Hamilton's at the end of that stint on the soft tyres? If he had stayed out another couple of laps, could he have passed Hamilton as well as Webber?

[Tazio]

I didn't have the benefit of live timing for this race... how were Button's times compared to Hamilton's at the end of that stint on the soft tyres? If he had stayed out another couple of laps, could he have passed Hamilton as well as Webber?He was putting in some purple sectors until the lap before he came in. He could not have passed Vettel. Hamilton was a possibility but to be honest I was watching all the top runners’ times and never really stopped to check the gap between Jenson, and the Boss. I'm guessing that JB felt his tires going off on the last two laps. Getting 8 more laps on the options than anyone else was very impressive IMO, but I think he knew he passed the apex of their performance. I think he would have said somewhere that he should have stayed out if he could, (pass LH) and I've read nothing to that affect.

[AndyL]

He was putting in some purple sectors until the lap before he came in. He could not have passed Vettel. Hamilton was a possibility but to be honest I was watching all the top runners’ times and never really stopped to check the gap between Jenson, and the Boss. I'm guessing that JB felt his tires going off on the last two laps. Getting 8 more laps on the options than anyone else was very impressive IMO, but I think he knew he passed the apex of their performance. I think he would have said somewhere that he should have stayed out if he could, (pass LH) and I've read nothing to that affect.

I was thinking of team orders-type conspiracy theories... "quick, call Jenson in this lap, if he stays out any longer he'll pass Lewis!" ;)

[Tazio]

I was thinking of team orders-type conspiracy theories... "quick, call Jenson in this lap, if he stays out any longer he'll pass Lewis!" ;) I wouldn't say it is outside the realm of possibility. But as I recall The Boss was really quick to get his primes up to speed, and to be objective he knew he had to, and I think that JB, and him had a fair fight!

[Tazio]

:monkee: Do you really think that McLaren does not know how to make a composite part that will only flex in a certain area under a certain load?
All they wanted to know is if it's legal. This is how they operate, they make sure it is OK to run it and only then they bring in theirs

McLaren engineering director Paddy Lowe has admitted his team does not yet know how to replicate the flexible front wing set-up currently being used by Red Bull and Ferrari.

The legality of the front wings had been questioned by certain teams before last weekend's German Grand Prix but they were approved by the FIA after close scrutineering. The wings, that flex up to 25mm lower to the ground at high speed, produce more downforce as a result.

"I've seen a lot of pictures on that situation," said Lowe. "We believe, and we're not alone, that two cars - Ferrari and Red Bull - have wings existing at a much lower position than we're able to deliver.

"It is a phenomenon we're seeing. It may be entirely legitimate, it may not be.

We don't understand it."

http://en.espnf1.com/mclaren/motorsport/story/24649.html?CMP=OTC-RSS
:s ailor: Read it and weep my man! :bigcry:
Read it and weep! :bigcry: :laugh:

[Retro Formula 1]

Shame on you Tazio ;)

That's coded talk for "We think there's something fishy going on and have a pretty good idea what it is but are waiting for a final ruling before we get our powder wet". :)