Honda Indy Edmonton

[SUBARUTEAM]

Yes, I only want to see local yellows except for the most extreme circumstances!!!!

Clear enough? :p

can you please define what is an 'extreme circumstance'

would an irl car driven my milka duno and 170 mph not make you feel a little uneasy while you walk out into the track to pickup someone's empty coke bottle?

[SUBARUTEAM]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xo7ZkEgcouU&feature=related

would a stalled car in a 30mph corner consitute 'extreme' enough for you to wave local yellows only?

click on the attached and tell me you still think local yellows will suffice starter?

Edit - deleted your link as it is against the policies of this board to post such here.

[garyshell]

can you please define what is an 'extreme circumstance'

would an irl car driven my milka duno and 170 mph not make you feel a little uneasy while you walk out into the track to pickup someone's empty coke bottle?


You do realize you are arguing with someone who actually has firsthand experience with what he is suggesting, right? The idea that every incident requires a full course yellow is every bit as ridiculous as the implication you are trying to put into Starter's words that they are never needed.

Gary

[Easy Drifter]

How about walking out onto a track and picking up a gas tank that had come adrift in an accident. I did this. This was under a local yellow but I could see a good quarter of a mile on a road course with a corner before the one where the accident was. Oh and I was a corner steward not a marshal. They were busy with the crashed car and an unconcious driver.
I have worked in hot pits both as a wrench and as an official before there were pit speed limits. That is more dangerous than going onto a hot track properly controlled by a local yellow.
You have severe penalties for not slowing for a local yellow and people will pay attention.
I do agree on an oval and the location of an incident combined with line of sight on a road course is critical. You also need well trained marshals, especially the lead marshal.
In Ont. now only very experienced marshals are licenced as corner captains.

[SUBARUTEAM]

if you watch any F1 race and keep an eye on the lap times when the yellow flag is out on part of the track, you would notice that nobody is slowing down.

if you want to walk out on track, all power to you.

you guys might not agree with me but someone does because its happening.

we should start a new thread for this discussion

[SUBARUTEAM]

The video which you linked, and which I deleted per board policies, refered to the incident at Vancouver where a marshal was killed at the chicane. There were three circumstances in play there. 1) The station captain (who most definately should have known better) make a major error. 2) The person killed was essentially a rookie with limited experience who never should have been allowed to work an event at this level - and it was his mistake that killed him. 3) The driver who hit the worker failed to follow the very precise pre race instructions on what to do in the event of a waving yellow at that corner. A perfect storm of blunders and errors.

Being a trackside worker is dangerous, make no mistake. No more so than being a driver. Those who do it do so for the love of the sport and realize and accept the dangers and potential consequences. The folks who are good enough and have the desire to staff the professional events have years of experience. (In the incident you cited, serious errors were made in allowing a rookie to participate track side - that does NOT automatically equate to saying no one should ever be there or to justify full course yellows.) The course worker's chances of injury at an automobile race are substantially less than their chance of being killed driving to their day jobs on a Wednesday morning in any city in the world..

While I don't disagree with what you are saying - I do have to wonder how some one in Edmonton gets the experience that you describe (given that they have one street race per year) or does the IRL fly flag marshalls to every event?.

From my experience as a race/rally driver - I can say that the organisers down this part of the world tend to get anyone from the local car club, put a bright orange vest on them and put them out on the course. (no dis-respect to these guys who without them, we wouldn't have a sport). this happens at the highest level too - eg the FIA sanctioned events in this country.


Also, given the above mistakes that you described in the Vancouver event - would either the organiser/promoter and/or series be liable should that happen again?

Further - is bunching the field up such a bad thing? In F1, the only passing tends to happen in the race to the first corner on lap 1 before the leaders check out and drive into the sunset. However I do agree that the full course cautions are too long.

As a driver, I just hate seeing marshalls getting hurt because without them, we have no sport. I have the upmost respect for all of them (yourselves included) - thats all I'm saying here. Anyway - enough said on the subject from me.

[Easy Drifter]

Probably a lot of the marshals at Edmonton work the races at Race City in Calgary. I know some Ont. marshals went out and I expect there were others from the US. Probably some from Manitoba who work Gimli.
But I guess we just agree to disagree.

[Mark in Oshawa]

While I don't disagree with what you are saying - I do have to wonder how some one in Edmonton gets the experience that you describe (given that they have one street race per year) or does the IRL fly flag marshalls to every event?.

From my experience as a race/rally driver - I can say that the organisers down this part of the world tend to get anyone from the local car club, put a bright orange vest on them and put them out on the course. (no dis-respect to these guys who without them, we wouldn't have a sport). this happens at the highest level too - eg the FIA sanctioned events in this country.



The IRL can use SCCA and CASC marshals (here in Canada) and does. The fact is, the marshals may only work ONE IRL race a year, but when you realize most of them have a lifetime of doing road races in their various regions and the rules and procedures are exactly the same as what is used in the IRL, there is no reason for the IRL to fly people in.

Marshalling in road racing on this continent is quite professional in everything but pay.

Right up to f1, this is the way it is done. Crazy? Yes...and no......

A pay check often doesn't mean you are a professional, it is how you conduct yourself in action that does, and the SCCA/CASC/IMSA marshals and officials have a pretty good record to say the least.

[SarahFan]

unless im missing something....

is it safe to assume that Helio hasn't as of yet been fined or penalized for physically assualting those poor indycar officials?

[Mark in Oshawa]

unless im missing something....

is it safe to assume that Helio hasn't as of yet been fined or penalized for physically assualting those poor indycar officials?

I think Big Charles spoke on his behalf. The smile on his face as Helio had both collars says to me that Helio wasn't going to inflict physical harm. It isn't his way..

Should have he been fined? Ya...maybe so....but I am not losing sleep over this one if they don't. They screwed him good and they know it....

[SUBARUTEAM]

The IRL can use SCCA and CASC marshals (here in Canada) and does. The fact is, the marshals may only work ONE IRL race a year, but when you realize most of them have a lifetime of doing road races in their various regions and the rules and procedures are exactly the same as what is used in the IRL, there is no reason for the IRL to fly people in.

Marshalling in road racing on this continent is quite professional in everything but pay.

Right up to f1, this is the way it is done. Crazy? Yes...and no......

A pay check often doesn't mean you are a professional, it is how you conduct yourself in action that does, and the SCCA/CASC/IMSA marshals and officials have a pretty good record to say the least.

I take your comments on board. we've all agreed to disagree on this one.

looking forward to the next race now - Power will be hard to beat.

[edv]

Lost in all of this "grabbed" talk is the fact that as HCN exited his car he unleashed a torrent of F-bombs clearly heard on the Versus telecast.
I heard no apologies, but the ICS should also look at fines for this behaviour (didn't Dale Jr get raked over the coals for saying "$h1t" on TV?)

[beachbum]

Lost in all of this "grabbed" talk is the fact that as HCN exited his car he unleashed a torrent of F-bombs clearly heard on the Versus telecast.
I heard no apologies, but the ICS should also look at fines for this behaviour (didn't Dale Jr get raked over the coals for saying "$h1t" on TV?)I don't think it has been lost. Many of the people posting on the whole topic are as mad as Helio was. While everyone has focused on the "rule", Helio has received little criticism for his blatant violation of the rule and his resulting melt down. Some even think his tirade was justified.

IMHO, it didn't matter in the moment if the rule was just or logical. It was known by the drivers and by all accounts accepted by the drivers. Prior to the race, I was struck by Helios' almost obsessive focus just one driver - "William". When it came down to the 2 of them, I think the "red mist" set in and Helio would do anything to beat Power. Rules meant nothing, teammates meant nothing, even a direct call from his team manger to pit and take the drive through meant nothing. He had to beat "William". When it was taken away, he exploded. In his mind, he had beaten Power. Although we will never know, I suspect his blowup had very little to do with the "rule" bu much more to do with the fact that his victory over Power was taken away.

One thing that struck me was how angry Tim Cindric was when he was interviewed. He repeated more than once on TV that he "didn't drive the car". When asked to explain, he said he told Helio to pit (which implied he accepted the need to comply with the penalty - not that he agreed with it) but Helio ignored him. It was hard to tell if he was more angry that Helio ignored him or the call was made in the first place, but the fact that he said almost nothing about the call, just that he "didn't drive the car" suggests (just suggests) that he was more angry over Helios actions.

I am sure it was not lost on Cindric that Helio messed up Powers race, and before the banzai move, Team Penske was poised to finish 1-2. Had Power not moved way out in the marbles, Helio may have taken both of them out. Not cool. Even if Helio wasn't penalized and he won, I suspect Team Penske would not have been very happy with how he raced Power.

[Marbles]

It's an asinine rule that totally befuddles the casual fan. Hardcore fans are having enough trouble with it. You cannot dictate a universal racing line. Some drivers do deviate from the norm at certain tracks at some corners. I don't know if the one move rule was ever written into the rules of AOW but it certainly was an unwritten rule ever since I started watching it until the late CC days and the infamous line.

If Helio was called for anything I thought it was his subtle but definite zig-zag exiting 14. I'm the last one here to stand up for HCN but he was ripped off. Comeuppance for past history?

Having said that, how a wily veteran such as HCN was almost snookered on a restart with only a handful of laps to go is a mystery. Maybe he should have spent less time looking in his mirrors.

[stephenw_us]

Blocking is European style racing, generally speaking. I know it is the lay of the land in NASCAR now too but generally not in American open wheel. I don't think you should be allowed even 1 move to impede another driver BUT, you should be allowed to choose a line and if that is a defensive one then so be it, make the other guy go the long way around. They way the defined blocking for this turn is not acceptable to me.

Not that I want to bring my favorite driver into the mix but another block argued earlier this year was the Danica and TK thing. What happened there? Why wasn't she instantly black flagged on a 200+ mph oval? THAT was a block yet nothing from BB. Consistency is imperative and that circus clown has none, let alone intelligence to make logical decisions.

This is just sad. This is what the IRL has become - some BS about how "we do racing different" than the "europeans"....

Here's a clue, it's "different" because it sux. Like someone else said, when are we going to simply kill IndyCar and start over? Just turn the 500 race into a NASCAR event and be done with it! Geesh!!

[maxmach]

It was the right call, and I generally like Helio and despise Barnyard. WE, the general public, including the announcers did not know about the rule discussed at the drivers meeting. But, the drivers did. When PT and Will both say Helio blocked, even it it is a chickenshi% stupid rule, then Helio blocked. He, Helio, should have been docked a race position.
And two, as for Helio's tantrum, in no sport, in no legitimate sport, can you "touch" an official without consequences. It has absolutely nothing to do with intent, that is an unenforceable slippery slope. Make him sit out a race, or start at the back next race, something not involving money, that will hurt. Yellings fine, touching is not.

[TURN3]

This is just sad. This is what the IRL has become - some BS about how "we do racing different" than the "europeans"....

Here's a clue, it's "different" because it sux. Like someone else said, when are we going to simply kill IndyCar and start over? Just turn the 500 race into a NASCAR event and be done with it! Geesh!!

If you're looking for somebody that needs a clue, check the mirror and re-read my post. Either you've taken it out of context or you're post is terribly written. Either way, I can't tell and have no idea why you quoted my comment in it.

[Marbles]

as for Helio's tantrum, in no sport, in no legitimate sport, can you "touch" an official without consequences. It has absolutely nothing to do with intent, that is an unenforceable slippery slope. Make him sit out a race, or start at the back next race, something not involving money, that will hurt. Yellings fine, touching is not.

I say $50,000, 3 points and a two race probation. :)

It was over the top. Grabbing someone by the shirt and wrapping it up in clenched fists certainly comes across as being aggressive. My wife did it to me once when I shrunk her favourite sweater in the dryer. Although I didn't feel intimidated, I certainly sensed the aggression.

I don't do the wash anymore.

[DanicaFan]

Helio got fined $60,000 dollars plus put on probation for the remainder of the season.

[SUBARUTEAM]

he'd earn 60k per month from bank interest so that wont hurt him very much

[Easy Drifter]

Does Helio have the same Probation Officer as Milk and Donuts? :rolleyes: :angel:

[TURN3]

Hope Helio is aware that this $60k is NOT tax deductible.

[SUBARUTEAM]

Hope Helio is aware that this $60k is NOT tax deductible.

your a funny guy turn3

[garyshell]

Helio interviewed Charles Burns last week before Mid Ohio.


http://www.youtube.com/v/Hff6GDM3G6c&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xd0d0d0&hl=en_US&feature=player_embedded&fs=1

Gary

[Mark in Oshawa]

Hope Helio is aware that this $60k is NOT tax deductible.
That is a can of worms that HCN will surely keep closed....