Will the new car mean new teams? [Archive]

View Full Version : Will the new car mean new teams?

MDS

15th July 2010, 05:46

I was going to add this to another thread, but I didn't want to hi-jack or bury the notion that 2012 would be the logical time for us to see new teams join the sport since the playing field will be closer to level than it has been in a long, long time.

The obvious new teams are Sam Schmidt Motorsports, AFS, and Bryan Herta Autosport. I can't see any of them moving up before 2012 because it doesn't make sense to invest in the current Dallara with a new formula coming. Herta has been more up front about his desire to build an ICS team, he's starting to build a sponsor base (William Rast), I expect both Sebastien Saavedra him in 2011 with another Indy effort, and should be ICS ready in 2012. SSM has probably relied too much on pay drivers to have an base to move up. AFS is probably only a serious sponsor away from being a satilite team for Andretti Autosport.

The most intriguing prospect for me though is Forsythe Racing. There has been increasing speculation about Gerry for the better part of a year now, and now that the announcement is made I have to believe we'll quietly see a move from Forysthe if he's serious about returning, and there a number of signs that he's been laying in wait for everything to line up.

He not gone from the sport as a lot of people think. Indeck has been sponsoring Conor Daly since 2007, and the two have a solid relationship. While Forsythe Championship Racing has been dissolved, Forsythe Racing Performance has been steadily working with ICS teams since 2008. They have a full shop with the massively expensive seven-post shaker rig, still have Neil Michelwright, Tom Brown and others on the payroll and have been working with a number of Star Mazda, FIL and IRL teams for the past three years, so they could gear up for racing in short order.

The theory is that if they put Conor in Indy Lights next year with either their team or someone else they could put massive amounts of R&D into developing their 2012 car, because they're all going to be made available to all of the teams in 2011, and without having the time requirements of running full time in 2011 could come out of the box in 2012 with two drivers that have more time in their seats than any other driver and crews that have more experience with the chassis under more conditions that any other crew. Also, since they wouldn't be current team they wouldn't be subject to testing caps and could run as many laps as they wanted wherever they want and they have books full of notes on all the ICS tracks from working with SFR and Conquest.

Also consider this, Gerry is a part owner in Cosworth, so he has the inside track on whatever engine manufacture is considering badging their engines, so he could insure that FCR and KVRT are the two primary teams for Lotus, or whoever comes into the sport, and that means free testing miles and other corporate benefits.

He had his guys put together a DP-01 this year for a "Demo" of some kind. Rumor has it that Conor logged some test miles in secret at a track somewhere in the midwest. If I were pursuing a big sponsor to enter the sport in 2012 I'd certainly fly them into a remote location, have a car painted up in their livery, have my driver there and turn some fast laps for them at a secret test session.

anthonyvop

15th July 2010, 15:51

To be economically competitive a new team would have to relocate to Indy. That can be a deal breaker for some teams.

garyshell

15th July 2010, 16:07

MDS

15th July 2010, 16:21

To be economically competitive a new team would have to relocate to Indy. That can be a deal breaker for some teams.

I don't really think that's the case, the the $125,000 discount is only to first 28 chassis ordered, and that means that not even all of the existing Indiana based teams will benefit.

Think about, of the teams based in Indy that would place orders now, Andretti, Ganassi and KVRT, de Ferran Dragon, Pather, DR&R would account for at least 26 cars between those six teams, if not more, that discount won't go far, and I'd be that preference would be given to teams already running the series before new teams, so I don't think the discount will ever reach new teams. Yeah Indiana based teams would save on shipping, but I don't think the savings would justify the cost of relocating.

RyanBriscoe#6

15th July 2010, 18:03

I don't really think that's the case, the the $125,000 discount is only to first 28 chassis ordered, and that means that not even all of the existing Indiana based teams will benefit.

Think about, of the teams based in Indy that would place orders now, Andretti, Ganassi and KVRT, de Ferran Dragon, Pather, DR&R would account for at least 26 cars between those six teams, if not more, that discount won't go far, and I'd be that preference would be given to teams already running the series before new teams, so I don't think the discount will ever reach new teams. Yeah Indiana based teams would save on shipping, but I don't think the savings would justify the cost of relocating.

Relocating would help attract team members from current teams. No need for a engineer from Andretti to pack up and move to L.A. or Charlotte or wherever the team is located. Would open up the number of people willing to take the job at a new team.

Marbles

15th July 2010, 18:24

Gerry Forsythe can rot in hell after the BS he pulled on Paul Tracy. His actions in refusing to free up Paul all the while knowing he was not going to run a car in the IRL are unforgivable.
Gary

I'd forgotten about that but Forsythe is an honorary Canadian to a lot of us race fans in the Great White North. He brought a lot of happiness to us and I wish he was back in the series.

I'd also like see Walker back in the series as well . Maybe he can glue on some of those left over Reynard parts on the new car.

Barry Green would also be a nice addition. He certainly knows how to run a successful team.

anthonyvop

15th July 2010, 19:33

Relocating would help attract team members from current teams. No need for a engineer from Andretti to pack up and move to L.A. or Charlotte or wherever the team is located. Would open up the number of people willing to take the job at a new team.

But how many very capable potential team members would take a pass because they don't want to move to Indy?

How many Indy based mechanics would jump at a chance to get out of Indy?

dataman1

15th July 2010, 21:38

To be economically competitive a new team would have to relocate to Indy. That can be a deal breaker for some teams.

There are still a lot of good experienced past CCWS people in Indy without jobs, in jobs that are no longer racing related or are in a different series. That alone could help a new team.

MDS

15th July 2010, 21:48

Locating in Indy is a mixed blessing. Yes there is a bigger talent pool to choose from but that comes with less loyalty and a higher labor cost. During good times if an experienced engineer in Indy quits on Monday they'll be working somewhere else by Friday. Indy based teams are more prone to arms race style prices for trained crew.

If you're based in Columbus, Chicago or California you have a better chance of keeping your crew together for a longer period of time at a lower cost. Also, an individual team in Indy isn't likely to be able to work local tax breaks, but if you're in a place like Columbus you may be swing tax breaks you won't get in Indy.

Mark in Oshawa

15th July 2010, 22:27

I think having Indy be the foci for the teams is a good one in the end. NASCAR didn't always have the teams based in and around Charlotte, it is just the way the business evolved, and when you saw the Petty's move to the Charlotte area, you knew that was the end of the era where teams were successful based outside of that area.

For Indy car, having all the teams in close to the vest like this will drive up their skilled labor costs a bit, but c'est la vie, that is is counterbalanced by the ability to get guys easier that are already in the area. Not to mention suppliers catering to all the shops are already there. A Critical mass of race car engineering concerns in the area will help the sport keep costs lower too.

On this, I don't really see a down side for the IRL or the teams at all.

anthonyvop

16th July 2010, 00:04

On this, I don't really see a down side for the IRL or the teams at all.

I do.

The "Indy" Racing League's "Indy" Car Series. Based in "Indy", Cars built in "Indy" with teams out of "Indy".

It is quickly turning into a regional series and that idea of making "Indy" sexy..........Indy is a fine city but sexy it ain't.

Mark in Oshawa

16th July 2010, 00:32

I do.

The "Indy" Racing League's "Indy" Car Series. Based in "Indy", Cars built in "Indy" with teams out of "Indy".

It is quickly turning into a regional series and that idea of making "Indy" sexy..........Indy is a fine city but sexy it ain't.

So Indy means nothing to racing fans? If all the teams were in Miami, somehow a race fan would care more because the mechanics could work on their tans in January?

I don't care if they base the series teams in Minot South Dakota, the cars will be called "Indy" cars...

Scotty G.

16th July 2010, 01:02

I do.

The "Indy" Racing League's "Indy" Car Series. Based in "Indy", Cars built in "Indy" with teams out of "Indy".

It is quickly turning into a regional series and that idea of making "Indy" sexy..........Indy is a fine city but sexy it ain't.

Who gives a damn about whether a city or a car or a driver is "sexy"?"

"Sexy" isn't why NASCAR is kicking Indy Car's ass.

And why shouldn't Indy Car Racing be based and centered in Indianapolis. Indy is the center of the motorsports world. Its the capital of AOW. Its where the vast majority of open wheel fans/drivers/workers/builders/etc... are located.

Re-grow the sport where the home of AOW is. And that's Indianapolis.

Alfa Fan

16th July 2010, 01:19

No, it won't. Remember the promised utopia the DP-01 was going to bring?

NickFalzone

16th July 2010, 01:43

Who gives a damn about whether a city or a car or a driver is "sexy"?"

"Sexy" isn't why NASCAR is kicking Indy Car's ass.

And why shouldn't Indy Car Racing be based and centered in Indianapolis. Indy is the center of the motorsports world. Its the capital of AOW. Its where the vast majority of open wheel fans/drivers/workers/builders/etc... are located.

Re-grow the sport where the home of AOW is. And that's Indianapolis.

I fully agree. I do not in the slightest believe that the name "Indy Car" is a negative for the series. Nor is the location of its biggest race, in Indianapolis. What is killing the series is that the casual fan turns on the channel, sees a bunch of identical-spec formula cars and sees a bunch of foreign no-name drivers and thinks they're watching a 2nd-rate formula 1 series. If the casual fan sees a variety of different looking cars and a much larger number of American drivers, suddenly U.S. tv ratings may start to inch up. ... but in the mean time, the series is racing on a fairly obscure tv-sports channel and is full of foreign ride buyers, and old spec formula cars. I do see a lot of positives happening for the series, but they have a long way to go to get back into the American public's consciousness, IF that is ever to happen again. Technological competition and the press it can provide is an important asset to the series, and one of MANY that need to be accomplished in the near future.

nigelred5

16th July 2010, 02:26

Q
So Indy means nothing to racing fans? If all the teams were in Miami, somehow a race fan would care more because the mechanics could work on their tans in January?

I don't care if they base the series teams in Minot South Dakota, the cars will be called "Indy" cars...
Minot is in NORTH Dakota, believe me, you might not care, but potential mechanics sure as hell would. Forget about it being in new oil country, minot is a miserable place 9 months a year.

nigelred5

16th July 2010, 02:49

;)

nigelred5

16th July 2010, 02:59

;)

anthonyvop

16th July 2010, 04:33

So Indy means nothing to racing fans? If all the teams were in Miami, somehow a race fan would care more because the mechanics could work on their tans in January?

I don't care if they base the series teams in Minot South Dakota, the cars will be called "Indy" cars...

So a Canadian based race team wouldn't interest you? It wouldn't bring in Canadian fans?

00steven

18th July 2010, 16:04

call_me_andrew

19th July 2010, 01:49

garyshell

19th July 2010, 05:50

NASCAR never subsidized relocations or forced anyone to move to Charlotte. Everyone migrated to Charlotte on their own.

Neither is the IRL. The "subsidies" are from the State of Indiana. And no one is being forced to move anywhere. Get your facts straight.

Gary

anthonyvop

19th July 2010, 15:17

Neither is the IRL. The "subsidies" are from the State of Indiana. And no one is being forced to move anywhere. Get your facts straight.

Gary

And those subsidies are a whole other issue that I find repugnant.

Easy Drifter

19th July 2010, 17:32

We have had Cdn. based teams in many series including the old Can Am, F5000, Trans Am and Atlantic in its heyday. Today Gand Am teams are based in Canada.
However, for an IC team the costs of parts due to duty, delays in cross border shipping plus brokerage fees and the hassle of many cross border trips pretty well eliminates a Cdn. based team. The border since 911 is much more of a hassle. You will note the two Cdn. races are a week apart despite a long a--ed haul from Toronto to Edmonton so the teams do not have to cross the border twice.
Further I do not think the casual fan knows or cares where a team is based. The taxi cabs have made Charlotte area well known because several teams offer tours and they have several series and many more support/supplier shops than IC will ever have. But it was a natural development not a forced one.
Most of the F1 teams are located in the same general area in England as are many of their suppliers.
Probably most if not all new teams will locate near Indy, assuming there are any.

anthonyvop

19th July 2010, 18:14

Why? States, counties and cities do this all the time with cash and various tax breaks/other incentives. It's usually an effort to get desired companies and industries to move to or build in that location. The pay back is future revenue and employment in that jurisdiction.

I am 100% against all use of Taxpayers money being taken by force to be given to private businesses.

Pat Wiatrowski

19th July 2010, 18:21

I am 100% against all use of Taxpayers money being taken by force to be given to private businesses.

diddo!

Pat Wiatrowski

19th July 2010, 18:22

I thought Indy was sexy. :)

You haven't seen Indy!

bblocker68

19th July 2010, 18:35

Bring Gerry back. I hope Penske runs a satellite team in 2012 comprised of PT and AJ Allmendinger to beat the snot out of them, HA!!

call_me_andrew

20th July 2010, 03:42

I am 100% against all use of Taxpayers money being taken by force to be given to private businesses.

Why?

anthonyvop

20th July 2010, 04:34

Why?

It is pretty self-explanatory.

But to put it simply I am against MY MONEY being taken by force and used to support poorly run businesses.

That is what ALL government subsidies are.

Lousada

20th July 2010, 09:35

Why?

It is a needless infriction in the free market.

Jonesi

20th July 2010, 23:09

NASCAR never subsidized relocations or forced anyone to move to Charlotte. Everyone migrated to Charlotte on their own.

They might as well have, now with the CoT. All new and repaired chassis MUST be inspected as Nascar's Charlotte office before body work, engines, etc are put in.

call_me_andrew

21st July 2010, 05:17

It is a needless infriction in the free market.

I'm going to assume you mean "infringement" because "infriction" is not a word.

You probably haven't noticed this yet, but the free market is incompetent.

Lousada

21st July 2010, 09:28

I'm going to assume you mean "infringement" because "infriction" is not a word.

English is not my first language but you understand what I mean.

You probably haven't noticed this yet, but the free market is incompetent.

:rolleyes: There is nothing incompetent about the free market for IRL chassis. The ICONIC committee knew every detail of every chassis, they knew exactly what the price and quality would be. Since they chose Dallara, that means one of two things. 1. Dallara was the best anyway. That would mean there was no need for a 5 million subsidy. 2. Dallara wasn't the best but the 5 million subsidy gave them the edge. This outcome would mean that the IRL does not drive with the best chassis and that it might not be produced in the most economical location.
Furthermore the teams are forced to move if they want to be economically competitive. Which forces them to be in a location that is not the best economical for them (or they would already be in Indy)

anthonyvop

21st July 2010, 18:27

You probably haven't noticed this yet, but the free market is incompetent.

Really? Incompetent?
Well then Log off the Internet because it was created by incompetence. Might as well shut off your computer as well. Turn in your keys to your car.
Grab some sheets to make a tent because in all likely your place of dwelling was created by incompetence.

Anyway. Back to the topic.
If the New car was such a great step for the future of the IRL then it wouldn't need any government subsidies.

Now i want to know why the power's that be at Indy made the relocation of a manufacturer and teams to Indy so important?

garyshell

21st July 2010, 20:37

Now i want to know why the power's that be at Indy made the relocation of a manufacturer and teams to Indy so important?

Indy didn't. The IRL/ICS didn't. The State of Indiana did. Why? Because like every other state they are hungry for jobs.

Gary

anthonyvop

21st July 2010, 22:50

Indy didn't. The IRL/ICS didn't. The State of Indiana did. Why? Because like every other state they are hungry for jobs.

Gary

If you think that the boys from Indy weren't involved in a lobbying effort than you have a lot to learn.

You really think the the State of Indiana came up with the idea to use taxpayers money to subsidize the new chassis on their own?

call_me_andrew

22nd July 2010, 03:58

They might as well have, now with the CoT. All new and repaired chassis MUST be inspected as Nascar's Charlotte office before body work, engines, etc are put in.

At this point, Roush, Hendrick, Gibbs, and Chidress are the only teams still building their own chassis. Everyone else just buys from them.

:rolleyes: There is nothing incompetent about the free market for IRL chassis. The ICONIC committee knew every detail of every chassis, they knew exactly what the price and quality would be. Since they chose Dallara, that means one of two things. 1. Dallara was the best anyway. That would mean there was no need for a 5 million subsidy. 2. Dallara wasn't the best but the 5 million subsidy gave them the edge. This outcome would mean that the IRL does not drive with the best chassis and that it might not be produced in the most economical location.
Furthermore the teams are forced to move if they want to be economically competitive. Which forces them to be in a location that is not the best economical for them (or they would already be in Indy)

Dallara was chosen because it was the only company willing to open a factory in Indianapolis. Lola and Swift were interested in opening warehouses in Indianapolis, but only Dallara would build a complete factory. The Dallara chassis isn't the best chassis, Dallara is just the only company willing to play ball.

Really? Incompetent?
Well then Log off the Internet because it was created by incompetence. Might as well shut off your computer as well. Turn in your keys to your car.
Grab some sheets to make a tent because in all likely your place of dwelling was created by incompetence.

1. The Internet was invented by the military.
2. Computers were invented by the military.
3. Cars are subsidized from the government.
4. When the lot my house is on was first purchased, the land was cheap because it lacked sufficent drainage to support a septic tank. When the township built a sewer system, construction could begin. Thus, an act of government built my house.

anthonyvop

22nd July 2010, 04:24

1. The Internet was invented by the military.
2. Computers were invented by the military.
3. Cars are subsidized from the government.
4. When the lot my house is on was first purchased, the land was cheap because it lacked sufficent drainage to support a septic tank. When the township built a sewer system, construction could begin. Thus, an act of government built my house.

1. Right. And it remained a limited resource until it was opened up to commercial interest in 1989.

2. Computers WERE NOT INVENTED BY THE MILITARY.

3. GM and Chrysler are...Many companies aren't

4. And you decided to accept money taken by force from others to further your needs. Shame on you.
Oh and even with your Government lucre you still needed a private company to build your government housing.

garyshell

22nd July 2010, 04:27

If you think that the boys from Indy weren't involved in a lobbying effort than you have a lot to learn.

You really think the the State of Indiana came up with the idea to use taxpayers money to subsidize the new chassis on their own?

Oh so as well as be the self proclaimed racing and marketing expert here, you are now the state an local government expert as well. I may have a lot to learn, but it sure isn't going to be from you. So enticing a manufacturing facility to an economy in dire need of jobs had little to do with this huh? And it was all about the lobbying efforts of the folks at 16th and Georgetown? Uh huh, sure, if you say so.

Gary

Mark in Oshawa

22nd July 2010, 09:13

Oh so as well as be the self proclaimed racing and marketing expert here, you are now the state an local government expert as well. I may have a lot to learn, but it sure isn't going to be from you. So enticing a manufacturing facility to an economy in dire need of jobs had little to do with this huh? And it was all about the lobbying efforts of the folks at 16th and Georgetown? Uh huh, sure, if you say so.

Gary

I think a little whisper or two in the ears of a few politicians from the Hulman clan might have had an influence.

Tony doesn't like it, it isn't his idea of pure capitalism, where the state never interferes in business. The real world however is full of lobbyists, so I am not naive enough to think a few people didn't whisper, and Tony is right to make that assertion.

However, that is for the people of Indiana to decide next election time on whether this politcal support in terms of tax dollars is worth it or not. I don't live there, so I wont judge. Getting jobs back in the rust belt of America has taken some bribery on occasion, and Indiana is a more business friendly state than some of its neighbours so I suppose that helps as well.

I think the move will center the industry for OW racing in American in Indy once and for all, and I think in time, it will do for OW what the Charlotte/Mooresville/Concord axis has done for NASCAR.

I also think in time, more new teams will be possible because it does sound like the cost of cars is going to drop through all of this....and no one can argue that is a bad thing.

anthonyvop

22nd July 2010, 15:20

anthonyvop

22nd July 2010, 15:29

I think a little whisper or two in the ears of a few politicians from the Hulman clan might have had an influence.

Tony doesn't like it, it isn't his idea of pure capitalism, where the state never interferes in business. The real world however is full of lobbyists, so I am not naive enough to think a few people didn't whisper, and Tony is right to make that assertion.

However, that is for the people of Indiana to decide next election time on whether this politcal support in terms of tax dollars is worth it or not. I don't live there, so I wont judge. Getting jobs back in the rust belt of America has taken some bribery on occasion, and Indiana is a more business friendly state than some of its neighbours so I suppose that helps as well.

I think the move will center the industry for OW racing in American in Indy once and for all, and I think in time, it will do for OW what the Charlotte/Mooresville/Concord axis has done for NASCAR.

I also think in time, more new teams will be possible because it does sound like the cost of cars is going to drop through all of this....and no one can argue that is a bad thing.

I don't want to change this thread into one about government approved thread as it would surely get it locked.

If indiana wants to do it it is their problem...so be it.

My issue here is the way they are trying to make the series more Indy-Centric.

It marginalizes the other races on the calendar and creates the perception of it being a regional series. Both are not good.